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How strong is he?

the same as Dooku without Makashi
or Anakin without Djem So

he ****ing doesnt exist, how do you strip a ****ing character of his fighting style, lightsaber form is the manner of fighting, style, attitude, tactics

kill self jmango

Originally posted by JKBart
the same as Dooku without Makashi
or Anakin without Djem So

he ****ing doesnt exist, how do you strip a ****ing character of his fighting style, lightsaber form is the manner of fighting, style, attitude, tactics

kill self jmango

OK, specifically without drawing form sidious.

Let's assume he's fighting someone whom he can't siphon power from like a light sider, or a cyborg non force sensitive

Qui-Gon level.

He doesn't draw, I assume you mean, from Sidious. It's about turning his inner darkness, enjoying said fight, into light.

Another rephrasing of the question then.

Can Mace Windu, as of R of the S, replicate and sustain his Sidious performance against anyone or was their special circumstances in the fight.

It was a special circumstance. He's nowhere near that level in his other fights.

With the super-conducting loop he can basically take down anyone he wants as long as the concentration is unwavering.

Without it he only has himself to draw from, so I would put him on tier 8. More similar to S5 TCW Anakin than RotS Ani though, if I had to guess.

His fight with Sidious was an exceptional circumstance, yeah.

I hold him as Obi-Wan/Tyranus-tier (maybe even Plagueis-tier) in sabers without the amp.

And Labyrinth of Evil Anakin was as powerful as Yoda, so that speaks volumes for Tyranus.

I would've said Krayt-tier, but popular opinion is that he's even better in sabers than Plagueis.

8 bordering 9 according to Gillard

Why is this notion that Vaapad Force drains?

Originally posted by Geistalt
And Labyrinth of Evil Anakin was as powerful as Yoda,

Originally posted by JKBart
the same as Dooku without Makashi
or Anakin without Djem So

he ****ing doesnt exist, how do you strip a ****ing character of his fighting style, lightsaber form is the manner of fighting, style, attitude, tactics

kill self jmango

TCW Yoda level.

Being a Peer of TPM Yoda, with his growth, i'd say he would of reached that point.

That's not from Labyrinth of Evil.

Yeah, the hell

I mean, to be fair, Labyrinth of Evil ends just before RotS.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I mean, to be fair, Labyrinth of Evil ends just before RotS.

And in that Novel he doesn't get a significant advantage against Grievous in sabers. Which hints to me that his Sidious feat might be an outlier in Legends.

There is however another example that comes to mind in the realm of canon.

I'd take ROTS as fact, and feats from LoE as not concrete. Did GL go over LoE like he did with the ROTS Novel? Because what is portrayed within the Movies/correlated by the Novels, should take precedance over sources stating otherwise. Meh.

Originally posted by slayne
His fight with Sidious was an exceptional circumstance, yeah.
Proof the boost was a temporary one. Especially considering the novel has Mace mastering his distress regarding the revelation before the fight took place.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Proof the boost was a temporary one. Especially considering the novel has Mace mastering his distress regarding the revelation before the fight took place.

what do you mean by boost?

Vaapad relies on the fury of said opponent. Mace's Vapaad will only work at his opponents level.

Why would it remain afterwards.

There was a mountain of context and circumstances that went into Windu performing that well against Sheev, which was what I was referencing. The superconducting loop happened literally once and it happened because of his mentality, the contexts of what he was fighting for, and more importantly, against.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Proof the boost was a temporary one. Especially considering the novel has Mace mastering his distress regarding the revelation before the fight took place.
Can you post the quote?

Again. Why people assume Vaapad Force drains?

Originally posted by slayne
Can you post the quote?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I mean, to be fair, Labyrinth of Evil ends just before RotS.

Indeed, but to be fair, Geistalt wouldn't know.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Proof the boost was a temporary one. Especially considering the novel has Mace mastering his distress regarding the revelation before the fight took place.

You could certainly make the case, but that quote is far from proof that Mace was operating outside of his normal limits. All it actually says is that he was able to keep his composure despite the situation.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I mean, to be fair, Labyrinth of Evil ends just before RotS. Originally posted by NewGuy01
Indeed, but to be fair, Geistalt wouldn't know. It's the second sentence on the Wookieepedia page.

He is declared to be as powerful as Yoda by countless sources, and more powerful by many sources so yeah, the "exceptional" circumstance is nothing "exceptional". He outright shrugs off the so called "emotional impact" of Sidious's revelation, and the novel makes it explicit that he is back to his usual frame of mind.

Not to mention, the "exceptional circumstance" is what needs to be proven here in the first place.

The evidence: his performance level outside of the fight. His other battles allude to some special circumstance against palp, one can be explained by a super conducting loop allowing him to become as strong as Sidious while fighting him.

1) Against Grievous, he can't beat him in the saber portion of the battle, despite the latter being virtually pinioned to the roof of shuttle. Supposedly restricting Grievous' movement is a big deal, which is why Kenobi lead their battle to a rather confined catwalk, aiding his victory.

2)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-15-2018/1CFg3C.gif

Compare that to a fairly evident struggle against Talzin for at least a minute. There's a little more than a small gap in performance when Sidious disarms her in three panels.

3)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-15-2018/XH1TzL.gif


He doens't incapacitate Maul and reacts slower to a missile inspite of the earning warning

Are you Ziggystardust, JMANGO?

@Rocky: That quote doesn't mean that he completely wiped away his anger. As you said yourself, he simply mastered it; as in, he kept his cool instead of letting his distress show.

Based on the evidence we have, the following potentially circumstantial factors were at play in the RotS duel:

- lack of "Jedi restraint"
- immersing "fully in vaapad"
- redirecting / drawing on Sidious's energies
- peak mindset / motivation
- exploiting Sidious's shatterpoint

The last one isn't that important here because Mace was already stalemating him before that and few contestants would have fewer weaknesses than Sidious.

I think that peak mindset and the lack of Jedi restraints go hand in hand - Mace sheds the latter because of the former, but can he do so on a whim or does he need some extraordinary circumstances? I think the tipping point for me is the number of quotes that say Windu rivals Palpatine/Yoda at that point, which seem to suggest that this isn't some sort of involuntary Zone moment.

Immersing in vaapad therefore should be something he can do if he really wants to, though there is the question of how long that would take, given that he doesn't seem to be fully immersed at the beginning of the fight where it's possible the B-team bought Windu time. To really exploit this the combatant would have to take Windu out extremely quickly, which I don't think many people would be able to do.

That leads us to him "drawing on" Sidious's energies. What we can guess about no-Sidious Windu is that:

- he is an equal for Dooku by Dark Rendevous, but this may be with those Jedi restraints
- Nick/Lucas think he's an "8 bordering on 9"
- he "rivals" Palpatine in power, the language of these quotes not indicating that it's just a trick where he siphons his energies
- he may not have been able to counter Sidious's lightning had Palpatine not stopped to feign weakness

So I'd guess:

Windu w/restraints >= Dooku
Windu without restraints can rival Sidious but can't get past his lightning, so I'd eyeball Plagueis level (overwhelming someone with uncharged lightning implies a pretty non-trivial gap)

Windu=Sidious.

Originally posted by Geistalt
It's the second sentence on the Wookieepedia page.

Thanks for drilling in my point.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'd eyeball Plagueis level (overwhelming someone with uncharged lightning implies a pretty non-trivial gap)
Plagueis is<<<TPM Sidious bro(there was a massive power boost at the end of the movel). There's no way Mace can rival ROTS Sidious is he's plagy level

Originally posted by slayne
@Rocky: That quote doesn't mean that he completely wiped away his anger. As you said yourself, he simply mastered it; as in, he kept his cool instead of letting his distress show.
So can you show me where the novel suggests he lost his cool when facing off against palps? If it's, "he was fighting for more than his life", I hope you're willing to apply that consistently.

At the end of the day, it's on you to prove the "exceptional circumstance" here fueling Mace's vapaad.

The novel depicts his inner turmoil by likening his previous state to a "crystal so shot through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words crushed him to sand".

But to signify the resurrection of his "normal state" the novel says that "because he is Mace Windu, he takes this without a change of expression"

"Because he is Mace Windu, within a second, the man of sand is stone once more"

If we are debating semantics, which is essentially what we are doing if it has come down to this, clearly the expression "stone once more" signifies that Mace is back to his previous mental state.

As does the expression that says that he is now a "pure Jedi Master".

As does the obvious indication towards it, where he makes decisions that he now knows can change the fate of the entire galaxy, "coldly and without emotion".

Yeah, this is pretty explicit in emphasizing that his mental state is back to what it once was, or at least, he has completely resolved the turmoil of emotions within him.

No wonder Anakin hated Windu. He was a man of sand in disguise.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Plagueis is<<<TPM Sidious bro(there was a massive power boost at the end of the movel). There's no way Mace can rival ROTS Sidious is he's plagy level

Where is dah power boost?

https://media1.giphy.com/media/EivZezMQaRwDm/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Plagueis is<<<TPM Sidious bro(there was a massive power boost at the end of the movel). There's no way Mace can rival ROTS Sidious is he's plagy level

Well a lightsaber duel would compress such differences; in the Force Windu was unable to handle his lightning.

Mace's performances outside the fight strongly suggest that he's doing nothing more than reflecting Sidious' power back at the source. He's around Dooku level at best otherwise. Not that this is exactly a new concept.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well a lightsaber duel would compress such differences; in the Force Windu was unable to handle his lightning.

He got surprise-blasted and was already in pain when Whinnykin cut his hand off.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Mace's performances outside the fight strongly suggest that he's doing nothing more than reflecting Sidious' power back at the source. He's around Dooku level at best otherwise. Not that this is exactly a new concept.

So why didn't he shoot the attack back at Palps when he was assaulted by those lightning bolts?