Captain America vs Superman

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



gauntlet o doom
Captain America is given the same flight, durability, strength and speed as Superman, however he will lack X-Ray Vision, Freeze Breath and the other exotic powers Superman only-sometimes uses. But he keeps his shield. How will he do if he fights Superman?

1. Comic versions
2. MCU vs DCEU versions

deathslash
Does he get any time to train with his new powers?

If he does, he owns Superman in both scenarios.

spetznaz
Captain America in both scenarios (obviously assuming he knows how to use the powers otherwise he will be smashing through mountains like DCEU Superman at the beginning of Man Of Steel).

Steve wins both for the same reason that Superman defeated Wraith (a more powerful alien being with powers similar to his, just at a greater level, in Superman Unleashed ...a good read). In that story, Superman defeated Wraith at one point hand to hand, stating that he (Superman) often had to fight more powerful foes with no backup support, while Wraith always relied on just his powers and anyways had the full might of the US military behind him (Wraith was the secret weapon for the US military, and was allegedly what caused either the Hiroshima or Nagasaki blast in WW2).

Steve would defeat Superman for ironically the same reasons. Steve is used to fighting more powerful opponents, and has adapted his skills and fighting abilities towards that. Giving him the strength, speed, invulnerability etc of Superman would basically result in ...a Black Adam type character with the fighting abilities of Batman.

Superman dies.

Byond
Steve beats Superman relatively easy if he has learned to control his powers.

riv6672
Originally posted by gauntlet o doom
Captain America is given the same flight, durability, strength and speed as Superman, however he will lack X-Ray Vision, Freeze Breath and the other exotic powers Superman only-sometimes uses. But he keeps his shield. How will he do if he fights Superman?

1. Comic versions
2. MCU vs DCEU versions

If Cap is competent in the use of his powers (and he should be, otherwise the thread premise is basically a character incompetent in the use of unfamiliar powers vs one of the most powerful characters in comics, and i doubt you'd do that), then i believe he wins, KMCer.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Byond
Steve beats Superman relatively easy if he has learned to control his powers.
No, he wouldn't.

Byond
Given that they have equaled everything for the 2, yes he would.

Steve would beat Batman in a h2h fight. He would stalemate WW if their stats were equaled in a h2h fight.

Wonder Woman and Batman is both above Superman in fighting ability. And Captain America's tenacity and strong will is greater than Superman's.

You really are sucking Superman's dick.. but then again, that is what every fanboy of any character does. So I am not surprised.

DarkSaint85
They haven't equalled though, just pointing out.

Supes still has freeze breath and HV, for example.

Bentley
Superman sundips for the sh_t stomp thumb up

Byond
If Supes can sundip to become stronger and Steve can't, it wouldn't be fair. Also, I doubt that HV and FB would be a decider in the fight.

This all comes down to what the OP really want the battle rules to be. Can Superman sundip to become stronger? And can Steve also sundip to increase his strength to become stronger? Too vague fight description imo. Should have been more precise about that.

DarkSaint85
The FB was strong enough to stop Bizarro.

Who is at least on the same level, if not stronger.

And if we're going the powerset route, being incapacitated for even a split second is an age to someone like Supes.

Bentley
Originally posted by Byond
If Supes can sundip to become stronger and Steve can't, it wouldn't be fair. Also, I doubt that HV and FB would be a decider in the fight.

This all comes down to what the OP really want the battle rules to be. Can Superman sundip to become stronger? And can Steve also sundip to increase his strength to become stronger? Too vague fight description imo. Should have been more precise about that.


More explicit? You get clearcut the powerset he gets and that he doesn't get further powers. Steve gets punked hard.

And T.Voed to death thumb up

Byond
Do you forget that in this fight, Steve have the same physical abilities as Superman. I would assume with speed he means that he can do anything Superman can with his speed. So their perception of things should be equalized.

FB wouldn't really matter for Steve since you know, he can and will avoid it when Superman uses it. And HV would also be useless against Steve because he can block it with his shield. This will come down to a h2h fight (and if Superman isn't allowed to sundip), Steve would beat Clark.

Byond
Originally posted by Bentley
More explicit? You get clearcut the powerset he gets and that he doesn't get further powers. Steve gets punked hard.

And T.Voed to death thumb up

The OP really should not allow Sundip, and if he does, Steve should also get it. Because otherwise it's just an unfair fight. And it would all be a pointless thread.

DarkSaint85
Yes, their perceptions are the same.

That's not what I meant, lol.

It means that a milisecond (for example) would be ages for BOTH of them.

Except Steve once more is trapped in ice. Even if it only traps him for a milisecond, that's ages.

To both of them.

deathslash
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, their perceptions are the same.

That's not what I meant, lol.

It means that a milisecond (for example) would be ages for BOTH of them.

Except Steve once more is trapped in ice. Even if it only traps him for a milisecond, that's ages.

To both of them. but can Supes actually hit him with his ice breath?

DarkSaint85
I'm assuming with equalised stats, they'll be like you and I in a fight.

And I sure as hell will not only blow all over you first chance I get, but I reckon I will succeed too thumb up

Because equalised stats. You're not gonna be faster or slower than mem. We'll be the same, except I have long range attacks and you don't.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Byond
Given that they have equaled everything for the 2, yes he would.

Steve would beat Batman in a h2h fight. He would stalemate WW if their stats were equaled in a h2h fight.

Wonder Woman and Batman is both above Superman in fighting ability. And Captain America's tenacity and strong will is greater than Superman's.

You really are sucking Superman's dick.. but then again, that is what every fanboy of any character does. So I am not surprised.
Superman would destroy Cap with HV and far superior knowledge of fighting at such levels.

Byond
If Steve have learned to utilize his powers to the fullest, and Superman doesn't sundip to increase his speed and strength and durability, Steve would win simply because he is a better and smarter fighter than Superman. If Superman is allowed to sundip,, and Steve have not learned to control the powers he have, he would most certainly win. HV would do jack shit since Cap have his shield. As for FB, wouldn't really matter as Steve can avoid it due to his increased speed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Byond
If Steve have learned to utilize his powers to the fullest, and Superman doesn't sundip to increase his speed and strength and durability, Steve would win simply because he is a better and smarter fighter than Superman. If Superman is allowed to sundip, he would most certainly win. HV would do jack shit since Cap have his shield. As for FB, wouldn't really matter as Steve can avoid it due to his increased speed.

But avoiding it implies he's faster than Superman.

But he's not. He's the same speed.

xJLxKing

Byond
He doesn't have to be faster than Superman to avoid it. He just need to see Superman try to use it to be able to avoid it.

Here is how I see the fight. It can have a few outcomes, depending on the circumstances around the fight:

Scenario 1: Both have full control of their powers. No sundip allowed. Steve would win due to him outfighting Superman. Would be a good fight.

Scenario 2: Steve have not yet been able to control his powers, no Sundip allowed. Superman wins.

Scenario 3: Superman can sundip, Steve have learned to use his powers to the best of his abilities. Superman should win this one.

Scenario 4: Superman can sundip. Steve have not learned to control his powers. Supes stomps.

Scenario 5: Steve can also sundip (he increase his powers at the same rate as Superman), and have learned to control his powers. Steve should take this in a good fight.

DarkSaint85
If you saw me about to blow on you (as we're both humans, assume we're equal in stats) how would you avoid it??

If you try ducking, I'll just follow you. At the same speed. Remember, you're not faster than me, and I'm not faster than you.

The problem is first mover advantage. And as you're unable to read my mind, you're not going to be able to react until AFTER I've tried it. Which means you'll never be able to catch up.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Byond
If Steve have learned to utilize his powers to the fullest, and Superman doesn't sundip to increase his speed and strength and durability, Steve would win simply because he is a better and smarter fighter than Superman. If Superman is allowed to sundip,, and Steve have not learned to control the powers he have, he would most certainly win. HV would do jack shit since Cap have his shield. As for FB, wouldn't really matter as Steve can avoid it due to his increased speed.
A simple freeze breath would stop the shield.

Superman HVs Cap to oblivion.

h1a8
Freeze breath is an unfair power.
He would freeze cap and get free hits.

Also experience matters. Superman can multitask his powers. Plus go intangible

Superman still has the advantage. The shield is useless.

carver9
Cap shield knocks away any ice, cap throws his shield as hard as he can at Superman, chopping his head off.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Cap shield knocks away any ice, cap throws his shield as hard as he can at Superman, chopping his head off.

But the ice is all around you. It's not an ice beam. It's cold air.

Scans of Caps shield......knocking air away?? Lol.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the ice is all around you. It's not an ice beam. It's cold air.

Scans of Caps shield......knocking air away?? Lol.

Stated on panel that from the time he is conjuring ice breath to the time it hits you, it is about 3 to 4 seconds. With that said, Cap dodges it with ease or he throws his shield at Superman mouth while he is trying to puke up ice breath.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Stated on panel that from the time he is conjuring ice breath to the time it hits you, it is about 3 to 4 seconds. With that said, Cap dodges it with ease or he throws his shield at Superman mouth while he is trying to puke up ice breath.

Yes, but all I need is one scan right, of it's speed? Interested in your scan,though.

After all, we have this scan:

https://m.imgur.com/zc340aF

Is WW that slow? Three/four seconds yet she didn't move?

JBL
Steve wins. Freeze breath has become faster than light for supermans sake now. Lol.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by JBL
Steve wins. Freeze breath has become faster than light for supermans sake now. Lol.

Shush you.

Carver is the authority here on WW. He has shown me time and time again that not only is Sacrifice a good representation of WWs abilities, but that she is also as fast as Flash. If not faster.

So if WW is as fast/faster than Flash, and Sacrifice wasn't PIS/jobbing, then Superman being able to freeze her - mid sentence, no less - despite her being more skilled than Superman, AND magical to boot, means that he would have zero problem here freezing Steve.

If you have issue with any of what I have just posted, take it up with Carver.

h1a8
Originally posted by carver9
Stated on panel that from the time he is conjuring ice breath to the time it hits you, it is about 3 to 4 seconds. With that said, Cap dodges it with ease or he throws his shield at Superman mouth while he is trying to puke up ice breath. Scans?

He froze Diana instantly.

XLR87T3
Depends entirely on whether Steve gets time to train & get comfortable with his newly acquired abilities. If he does, he curbstomps without question because skill>experience, especially when the skill gap is this astronomically huge. But if he doesn't, then it's a rehash of Zod, where his eyesight and hearing was messed up and hurting his skill advantage, and didn't really know his own strength.

gauntlet o doom
Originally posted by XLR87T3
But if he doesn't, then it's a rehash of Zod, where his eyesight and hearing was messed up and hurting his skill advantage, and didn't really know his own strength.

Did Zod have a skill advantage though? He was handily taken down by a scientist.

XLR87T3
Originally posted by gauntlet o doom
Did Zod have a skill advantage though? He was handily taken down by a scientist. The scientist was a BAMF, so that can be easily excused

bluewaterrider
Unless the proposal is that Superman will be heat visioning Steve through Steve's own eyes as he holds him, got to give this to Captain America.

Note how Steve handles himself against an opponent who is faster, stronger, tougher, more armored, AND who has forewarning of when Steve is about to strike even after losing his shield to said opponent (Spider-Man) ...



IronParker versus Rogers


https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019343_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019344_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019345_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019347_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019348_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019349_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019350_image.jpg

Source: Amazing Spider-Man #534
Circa: September 2006

TheHulkster

abhilegend
Except he has never shown the ability to master top tier powers in such a short time.

carver9
Superman isn't Surfer. Cap will have flight, speed and strength. What is complex about this, lol. You bringing up top tier power doesn't change the fact that the ability he is mastering is basic.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by carver9
Superman isn't Surfer. Cap will have flight, speed and strength. What is complex about this, lol. You bringing up top tier power doesn't change the fact that the ability he is mastering is basic.
it's not basic

It's why Superman can easily beat someone like Lor who despite growing up with his power can't' utilize them correctly


What dont you get?

XLR87T3
Originally posted by xJLxKing
it's not basic

It's why Superman can easily beat someone like Lor who despite growing up with his power can't' utilize them correctly


What dont you get? Is Lor anywhere near as smart or mentally skilled as Captain America?

DarkSaint85
Still not sure how that mastery translates to being able to overcome a range advantage, lol.

Look. You and I are both human level in stats. Same strength, speed, durability, abilities.

You have a shield, I can freeze you in a block of ice/use HV.

Sure you could use the shield against the HV, until I switched to a wide beam like I did against the Doomsday clones. Or just froze you instantly, like I did against WW.

You can't dodge it, because you're explicitly as fast as I am - no faster. Unless you can read my mind, you're not moving before I attack.....

bluewaterrider
NOT originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still not sure how that mastery translates to being able to overcome a range advantage, lol.

Look. I am Spider-Man level in stats. GREATER strength, speed, durability, abilities than you.

You have a shield, I can web you in steel strong silk ropes.

Sure you could use the shield against the webbing, until I switched to a wide net like I do against run-of-the-mill burglars . Or just snared you instantly, like I did against Kingpin.

You can't dodge it, because you're explicitly slower than I am.
Also, I can all but read your mind, because I've got Spider-Sense to warn me when you're about to attack.....





https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019343_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019344_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019345_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019347_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019348_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019349_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/38019350_image.jpg

Source: Amazing Spider-Man #534
Circa: September 2006

DarkSaint85
Not sure what relevance that has. Spiderman doesn't have HV or Freeze Breath, and nor does Cap have had the luxury of studying him, his every move.

I mean, very telling that you stopped your scans where you did (or did I mean to type scaM???)

Post the very next page. Where Spiderman explicitly does something that Cap has NOT studied (even during the course of said fight).

You can see how Spiderman plays with Cap. Uses his webs to create am opening for Cap to jump into, then exploits it.

So in this thread, Cap, who has never studied Kryptonians fighting, will...get hit.

I guess that's the point you're trying to make? That Superman wins?

I await with bated breath.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by abhilegend
Except he has never shown the ability to master top tier powers in such a short time.

Has he shown failing to do so?

abhilegend
Originally posted by TheHulkster
Has he shown failing to do so?
Why would anyone need to prove a negative.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by carver9
Superman isn't Surfer. Cap will have flight, speed and strength. What is complex about this, lol. You bringing up top tier power doesn't change the fact that the ability he is mastering is basic.

Exactly. Practically the same day he receives his powers, Nefaria appears quite competent and that includes heat vision. Jane Thor wields Thor's power at least as well as he does from the start. Same for Masterson. He is just less skilled than Thor in fighting.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would anyone need to prove a negative.

Didn't ask you for proof of anything. I asked a fact based question.

TheHulkster
Plus, the original assertion is that Cap would not be adjusted to rhw power. You have to provide proof of that. You said that he has never done so. My response is that he has never been shown failing to do so. That's a legitimate retort.

Mindset
How will Supes perform freeze breath with a crushed trachea?

xJLxKing

abhilegend
Originally posted by TheHulkster
Didn't ask you for proof of anything. I asked a fact based question.
I said he has never shown that he can get proficient with top tier power.

Am I supposed to post every Cap comic ever to prove that?

TheHulkster
If you claim Cap not ever having that power as evidence of not being able to use it well, then that is a legitimate response. As for Lor, I can counter with Jane Thor or Nefaria.

We can counter with Morg or any other herald. They are as skilled with the PC when they first get it as they are later on. Monica Rambeau wields GL energy as well as any GL.

abhilegend
Blasting someone with GL energy is totally using GL power at its best.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by abhilegend
I said he has never shown that he can get proficient with top tier power.

Am I supposed to post every Cap comic ever to prove that?

You have to show where he is unable to be proficient, otherwise your statement is meaningless. There is no firsthand proof either way.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still not sure how that mastery translates to being able to overcome a range advantage, lol.

Look. You and I are both human level in stats. Same strength, speed, durability, abilities.

You have a shield, I can freeze you in a block of ice/use HV.

Sure you could use the shield against the HV, until I switched to a wide beam like I did against the Doomsday clones. Or just froze you instantly, like I did against WW.

You can't dodge it, because you're explicitly as fast as I am - no faster. Unless you can read my mind, you're not moving before I attack.....

They wouldn't necessarily have the same speed since Cap will have the below advantage:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0a312027b8dd228a7d00248d3a7d3c76-c

DarkSaint85
I thought all stats were equal, no?

Which includes reflexes. Unless you're stacking stats, in which case Cap is also a tiiiny bit stronger than Supes etc.

Which sounds silly, lol.

TheHulkster
I think that what Diana refers to are instincts and muscle memory developed through training which is really what skill is all about. Not literal speed which is what she refers to as "raw speed". Physical speed capabilities have been equalled as well as strength and durability.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
it's not basic

It's why Superman can easily beat someone like Lor who despite growing up with his power can't' utilize them correctly


What dont you get?

That his power is basic. It's speed, strength, and flight. It's like saying Captain Marvel or Wonder man powers are complex. Cap is already pretty quick and strong. Now he just need to familiarize himself with a higher tier of power that he already have and due to his intellect, he should be able to achieve this, easily. Lol... he was capable of pushing a freaking Universe back with the gauntlet while being in possession of the gauntlet for some minutes.

xJLxKing

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, but all I need is one scan right, of it's speed? Interested in your scan,though.

After all, we have this scan:

https://m.imgur.com/zc340aF

Is WW that slow? Three/four seconds yet she didn't move?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/4653067-dick+fights+paragon.png

DarkSaint85
Bwahaha good scan thumb up

So much for WWs reflexes!

You don't realize that I do actually read a few comics myself.

So if you want to use that scan as proof, go right ahead. Remember, I will save this next time you argue for WWs speed smile

But then again, ricocheting bullets are too fast for her.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Bwahaha good scan thumb up

So much for WWs reflexes!

You don't realize that I do actually read a few comics myself.

So if you want to use that scan as proof, go right ahead. Remember, I will save this next time you argue for WWs speed smile

But then again, ricocheting bullets are too fast for her.

You can use it. Make sure you use this one as well...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/35308/2746809-15.jpg

Thanks.

DarkSaint85
Not sure what these all have to do with the thread in hand lol. Are you drunk again?

carver9
This one too... let's not forget this one.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4446128-0760967806-44266.jpg

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not sure what these all have to do with the thread in hand lol. Are you drunk again?

You're using Wonder Woman getting tagged by something, so why not reverse it since the thread is about Superman. At the end of the day, people get hit all of the time: I thought everyone on KMC knew this. So you bringing up Wonder Woman getting tagged by objects much slower than her, shouldn't this be used against everyone? Why just mention it against Wonder Woman?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
You're using Wonder Woman getting tagged by something, so why not reverse it since the thread is about Superman. At the end of the day, people get hit all of the time: I thought everyone on KMC knew this. So you bringing up Wonder Woman getting tagged by objects much slower than her, shouldn't this be used against everyone? Why just mention it against Wonder Woman?

Erm no, you're not getting my point lol.

You're missing it, as always.

The INITIAL POINT that I was replying to, was your point that it takes 4 seconds to affect someone with freeze breath.

Your proof? DICK GRAYSON, lol. Not even Superman. I knew that was going to be your proof, hence my use of WW.

When SUPERMAN actually uses his freeze breath, in. ACTUAL battle, it does NOT take four seconds to act, lol.

If you have actual scans of SUPERMAN using his freeze breath, and it ACTUALLY taking FOUR seconds, then you have a case to make,lol.

IOW, we all agree PIS occurs, right? WW gets tagged. Flash gets tagged. Superman gets tagged. We all know it's PIS because why?

Say it with me slowly.

Because they have feats showing they're faster than that.

I have scans showing Supermans freeze breath working, quickly. Which makes your NIGHTWING scan.....well, almost as stupid as you.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm no, you're not getting my point lol.

You're missing it, as always.

The INITIAL POINT that I was replying to, was your point that it takes 4 seconds to affect someone with freeze breath.

Your proof? DICK GRAYSON, lol. Not even Superman. I knew that was going to be your proof, hence my use of WW.

When SUPERMAN actually uses his freeze breath, in. ACTUAL battle, it does NOT take four seconds to act, lol.

If you have actual scans of SUPERMAN using his freeze breath, and it ACTUALLY taking FOUR seconds, then you have a case to make,lol.

IOW, we all agree PIS occurs, right? WW gets tagged. Flash gets tagged. Superman gets tagged. We all know it's PIS because why?

Say it with me slowly.

Because they have feats showing they're faster than that.

I have scans showing Supermans freeze breath working, quickly. Which makes your NIGHTWING scan.....well, almost as stupid as you.

How fast is his ice breath? Light speed?

DarkSaint85
Well everytime I've seen it, it has worked. On people who are pretty fast (Bizarro, WW etc).

So for YOU to say it's slow....post scans of people outspeeding it. Not people who aren't even in the thread SAYING it, when it's feats speak for itself.

I mean, I can post a hundred scans of people SAYING Batman is human.

His feats speak for themselves.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well everytime I've seen it, it has worked. On people who are pretty fast (Bizarro, WW etc).

So for YOU to say it's slow....post scans of people outspeeding it. Not people who aren't even in the thread SAYING it, when it's feats speak for itself.

I mean, I can post a hundred scans of people SAYING Batman is human.

His feats speak for themselves.

So if i show Batman blocking it with his cape, that should be sufficient?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
So if i show Batman blocking it with his cape, that should be sufficient?

Lol no....

Because we both know Batman has also outreacted HV.

Are you just trolling now? Are you genuinely, hand on your heart, seriously believing that freeze breath takes four seconds to act?

Simple question. Please don't dodge or avoid it. Simple yes or no.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol no....

Because we both know Batman has also outreacted HV.

Are you just trolling now? Are you genuinely, hand on your heart, seriously believing that freeze breath takes four seconds to act?

Simple question. Please don't dodge or avoid it. Simple yes or no.

So you get to post evidence of Batman doing something to disprove an argument but I can't do it?

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to be like you.

DarkSaint85
So honestly, all attempts at getting one over aside....

How fast do you think his freeze breath is?

And no, because you and I both know that despite being called human, Batman does things no human can do. I will ONCE MORE REPEAT MY ARGUMENT.

BATTLE FEATS ALONE CANNOT BE RELIED UPON. SPACE CHEESE FEATS ALSO NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION.

IF YOU ONLY RELY ON BATTLE FEATS, BATMAN IS TRANS LEVEL.

I ONLY USE BATMAN TO ILLUSTRATE THE POINT THAT BATTLE FEATS SHOULDN'T ONLY BE RELIED ON ALONE.

For some reason you don't seem to ever grasp this. And then attempt to use Batman - when I specifically use him as an example of not to - to prove a point lol.

Edit: so once more, without attempting to score points.....how fast as his freeze breath? Do you really think it takes 4 seconds to work?

carver9
I'm lost for words.

DarkSaint85
thumb up

gauntlet o doom
Is the freeze breath the difference-maker?

abhilegend
Heat vision.

riv6672
After (painfully) reading this thread, and staying in the spirit, i'll just add to my one previous post by saying a Superman level Cap w. his Shield trumps Superman w. hv/fb. No way those stracks are getting past it.
And, Cap at normal levels w. Shield can take blows that even Supes feel.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/68428/2343409-1129390-avengers_v3_063_17_super.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2935160-capture03_7.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113714/3506945-thanos-breaks-caps-shield-infinity-gauntlet-4.jpg

In the end, Cap bounces his shield off the moon and KOs Supes FTW.

DarkSaint85
But the shield doesn't block....well, air. It's an area attack that freezes the entire body (as seen with WW).

For example, he freezes the brain of an entire planet here:
https://m.imgur.com/a/Tvow9

And Bizarro:
https://m.imgur.com/HhGODJE

It isn't just a narrow energy beam like a laser or whatnot. Or like HV hehe.

Although, HV can also be wide:

https://i.imgur.com/0Yoeqsr_d.jpg


I personally see Cap as more skilled. And he wouldn't have any issue whatsoever adjusting to the powers, that's silly.

But range advantage trumps skill.

DarkSaint85
Here, we all know Batman's reaction feats. He can do this, he can do that, whatever.

He's too slow to dodge Clayface's attack. Clayface is actually midpunch, and about to connect with Batman's beautiful face.

Superman freezes him.
https://m.imgur.com/a/BUZws

Here,Parasite is about to ignite a whole load of cars with his HV at once. Solution? Mass freezing of the entire area:
https://m.imgur.com/a/TPVc2

It acts incredibly fast (even mid punch). It affects entire areas. It can hold for a split second people like WW/Bizarro (am being generous here....even a split second can be an eternity).

And it's something that only one combatant has.

carver9
So how fast is freeze breath? Let's put it like this, Flash and Super was running 2000 mps and Superman heat vision couldn't touch Flash at this speed. Is Superman heat vision slower than his ice breath?

DarkSaint85
Fast enough to work when needed. That is to say, it isn't a limiting factor.

Superman himself says it takes two seconds to freeze this giant building sized....building (I THINK it was the Burj Khalifa, sonearly 1km tall.....a good size):
https://m.imgur.com/A5os6b9

And as we all know, it takes longer to freeze large amounts vs small amounts. Imagine freezing a jug of water vs a shot glass, lol.

So if it takes 2 seconds to freeze that, I'd say...a hundredth of thar to freeze a human sized thing? A thousandth of a second?

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fast enough to work when needed. That is to say, it isn't a limiting factor.

Superman himself says it takes two seconds to freeze this giant building sized....building (I THINK it was the Burj Khalifa, sonearly 1km tall.....a good size):
https://m.imgur.com/A5os6b9

And as we all know, it takes longer to freeze large amounts vs small amounts. Imagine freezing a jug of water vs a shot glass, lol.

So if it takes 2 seconds to freeze that, I'd say...a hundredth of thar to freeze a human sized thing? A thousandth of a second?

How fast would it have taken a character that is light speed to pull that ft off? Remember, you said a second is like an eternity, so him saying it takes seconds to do this is an eternity to Cap, right?

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fast enough to work when needed. That is to say, it isn't a limiting factor.

Superman himself says it takes two seconds to freeze this giant building sized....building (I THINK it was the Burj Khalifa, sonearly 1km tall.....a good size):
https://m.imgur.com/A5os6b9

And as we all know, it takes longer to freeze large amounts vs small amounts. Imagine freezing a jug of water vs a shot glass, lol.

So if it takes 2 seconds to freeze that, I'd say...a hundredth of thar to freeze a human sized thing? A thousandth of a second?
Respectfully, this isnt coming diwn to speed, as Supes isnt the Flash. Freeze breath is fine and all (ranged attack yes, but Cap's Shield is a ranged attack as well), but its also not something he does all the time.
Something Cap does all the time, though, is hang and beat ppl WAY outside, ASTRONOMICALLY outside his weight class.
Putting him and Supes in the same weight class is giving Cap all the advantage here.

I'm not gonna go all 'Byond' w. this, but the above is my take on the matter.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
How fast would it have taken a character that is light speed to pull that ft off? Remember, you said a second is like an eternity, so him saying it takes seconds to do this is an eternity to Cap, right?

You misunderstand me as always sad

I'm saying it took two seconds to freeze that entire area. It's massive. Burj Khalifa is like 0.5 miles long. The sheer volume that he froze there is staggering.

Let's assume a human sized object is like a thousandth of that (which is low-balling massively - a thousand people won't make that much lol).

So two seconds to freeze that amount. To freeze a Cap sized amount? A thousandth. Maybe even hundredth of a thousandth of a second.

But crucially, Superman can activate the attack BEFORE Cap can dodge (Cap doesn't have precog). And since they are equal in speed, if Cap does somehow dodge, Supes can equally change direction (because he can equally react at the same speed Cap can).

So yeah, even with Supes level reactions, he can't dodge that.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
Respectfully, this isnt coming diwn to speed, as Supes isnt the Flash. Freeze breath is fine and all (ranged attack yes, but Cap's Shield is a ranged attack as well), but its also not something he does all the time.
Something Cap does all the time, though, is hang and beat ppl WAY outside, ASTRONOMICALLY outside his weight class.
Putting him and Supes in the same weight class is giving Cap all the advantage here.

I'm not gonna go all 'Byond' w. this, but the above is my take on the matter.

Fair enough.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You misunderstand me as always sad

I'm saying it took two seconds to freeze that entire area. It's massive. Burj Khalifa is like 0.5 miles long. The sheer volume that he froze there is staggering.

Let's assume a human sized object is like a thousandth of that (which is low-balling massively - a thousand people won't make that much lol).

So two seconds to freeze that amount. To freeze a Cap sized amount? A thousandth. Maybe even hundredth of a thousandth of a second.

But crucially, Superman can activate the attack BEFORE Cap can dodge (Cap doesn't have precog). And since they are equal in speed, if Cap does somehow dodge, Supes can equally change direction (because he can equally react at the same speed Cap can).

So yeah, even with Supes level reactions, he can't dodge that.

So is he using this close up or from a distance?

Philosophía
Originally posted by carver9
Flash and Super was running 2000 mps and Superman heat vision couldn't touch Flash at this speed. You think that just because Pr is missing you can continue trolling and saying stupid things? They were at that speed at the beginning of the race, by the end of it they were moving faster than heat vision.

DarkSaint85
Either. I know you're going to argue he does it from 500m away, therefore it would also take that 2 seconds...but the problem is I was low-balling massively there, as he was a distance away.

Whereas I assumed he was right up next to it, pressing his lips to it. If we assume he was even ten or twenty metres away, that affects things.

IOW, the whole point of this is to show your scan of Grayson saying it takes 4 seconds is wrong.

JBL
Freeze breath and HV would be nothing to cap with supermans strength and speed plus his shield. What's stopping cap from cutting supes head, arms, legs or cutting him in half with the shield? Cap would break out of ice and kill superman.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by JBL
Freeze breath and HV would be nothing to cap with supermans strength and speed plus his shield. What's stopping cap from cutting supes head, arms, legs or cutting him in half with the shield? Cap would break out of ice and kill superman.

It's been fast and strong enough to hold WW.

Unless of course you think Supes is stronger/faster than WW. In which case, OK.

juggerman
Does Cap know about freeze breath? I mean why would he run away from Clark exhaling? I don't think Cap would even try to dodge it w/o prior knowledge. Heat vision is a different story imo.

carver9
Every fight comes with basic knowledge of said character. He will know.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's been fast and strong enough to hold WW.

Unless of course you think Supes is stronger/faster than WW. In which case, OK.

It didn't hold her though, lol.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
It didn't hold her though, lol.

Not even for a milisecond? You'd have to prove that, lol.

DarkSaint85
Carver, I'll save you the trouble because I know you'll just try and post the next scan and say she disappeared.

Fact is, you can see her hair frozen in mid air. She's stopped mid sentence. So she was held, even if just for a fraction of a second.

XLR87T3
If Superman is smart, he keeps a wide distance away and uses AOE freeze breath & heat vision. Captain America's shield can't block from all sides, and Superman dies immediately and horribly if he tries to fight physically. No amount of wanking Superman's fighting skills will stop the bloody rape that he would experience if he attempts to CQC Steve at equal stats, so Superman must stick to his guns.

Damborgson
Originally posted by juggerman
Does Cap know about freeze breath? I mean why would he run away from Clark exhaling? I don't think Cap would even try to dodge it w/o prior knowledge. Heat vision is a different story imo.

Characters have knowledge of their opponents unless otherwise specified.

DarkSaint85
Yeah. He'll know what Supey has/can do. Maybe not the exact levels, but def that he has it.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by XLR87T3
If Superman is smart, he keeps a wide distance away and uses AOE freeze breath & heat vision. Captain America's shield can't block from all sides, and Superman dies immediately and horribly if he tries to fight physically. No amount of wanking Superman's fighting skills will stop the bloody rape that he would experience if he attempts to CQC Steve at equal stats, so Superman must stick to his guns.

A wide distance wouldn't be too safe the way Cap tosses his shield, especially doing so with that amount of strength.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6005/9fb0cad52f68e5af4c4540fb4c6e8e66b53f6324_hq.jpg

Scarlet315
Hot damn, i said hot damn this a good fight. Just came to say that cause im gonna need some hot cocoa to commence readin

h1a8
Superman can blow the shield away (or slow it), hv deflect it, go intangible, hv Cap while he attempts to throw it, or just dodge it.

Superman can freeze and use hv and punching simultaneously.
Superman would only lose if this was h2h only.

deathslash
Originally posted by h1a8
Superman can blow the shield away (or slow it), hv deflect it, go intangible, hv Cap while he attempts to throw it, or just dodge it.

Superman can freeze and use hv and punching simultaneously.
Superman would only lose if this was h2h only. erm heat vision travels at the speed of light and his freeze breath is significantly slower then that. How exactly is he hitting someone that can literally travel faster than both of his ranged attacks?

TheHulkster
Originally posted by h1a8
Superman can blow the shield away (or slow it), hv deflect it, go intangible, hv Cap while he attempts to throw it, or just dodge it.

Superman can freeze and use hv and punching simultaneously.
Superman would only lose if this was h2h only.

Did he do any of this to Mjolnir or to Diana's tiara before it cuts his throat? That shield would be coming at enormous speed. And intangible? Really? Let someone tools out every possible thing Surfer can do and let's watch everyone cite how we practically never see it done in the comics.

carver9
Originally posted by h1a8
Superman can blow the shield away (or slow it), hv deflect it, go intangible, hv Cap while he attempts to throw it, or just dodge it.

Superman can freeze and use hv and punching simultaneously.
Superman would only lose if this was h2h only.

So, if Cap with Superman strength threw his shield with all of his might at Superman, are you literally telling me Superman could stop it with ice breath? Are you crazy?

XLR87T3
Superman can dodge the shield, but considering the fact that the two opponents are equal in speed, that is unlikely. The skill gap is astronomical, so simply being "as fast" is not enough. I'm "equal in speed" to anyone here, but if I was half as skilled as Cap, I would in reality be "faster" and my attacks would land and hit almost guaranteed.

Either way, I doubt Steve would even throw his shield in this scenario

StiltmanFTW
Who are you, XLR87T3?

Your profile is saying you registered in 2016, but nobody remembers you.

Please identify yourself or I'll call gangsters with big dicks like Bada or Pr to investigate. Trust me, you don't want them to investigate.

They don't use lube.

h1a8
Originally posted by deathslash
erm heat vision travels at the speed of light and his freeze breath is significantly slower then that. How exactly is he hitting someone that can literally travel faster than both of his ranged attacks?

Cap can't travel faster than hv the first instant. He needs to speed up to light speed. Also I stated that Superman deflects the shield with hv or shoots at Cap while he's in his throwing motion. Cap can't throw the shield and try to avoid getting hit by hv at the same time.

Also Superman can use hv at close range (h2h range).


I never claimed that Superman can hit Cap with hv at a sufficiently large distance. He can easily hit Cap with it at close distances though.

h1a8
Originally posted by carver9
So, if Cap with Superman strength threw his shield with all of his might at Superman, are you literally telling me Superman could stop it with ice breath? Are you crazy? ice breath? No! Wind breath. It depends on how far the throw is coming from. The wind breath can indeed slow it down significantly if not stop it.

What about my hv deflection? You just nitpick shit that doesn't change the grand scheme of things?

carver9
Originally posted by h1a8
ice breath? No! Wind breath. It depends on how far the throw is coming from. The wind breath can indeed slow it down significantly if not stop it.

What about my hv deflection? You just nitpick shit that doesn't change the grand scheme of things?

What wind breath showings does Superman have that proves he can stop a shield toss from a VIBRANIUM WEAPON that absorbs kinetic energy from a person with ELITE strength. I need you to think on this for a bit. Think about this before you answer the question. Superman heat vision will get absorbed.

h1a8
Originally posted by XLR87T3
Superman can dodge the shield, but considering the fact that the two opponents are equal in speed, that is unlikely. The skill gap is astronomical, so simply being "as fast" is not enough. I'm "equal in speed" to anyone here, but if I was half as skilled as Cap, I would in reality be "faster" and my attacks would land and hit almost guaranteed.

Either way, I doubt Steve would even throw his shield in this scenario If another human throws a disk at you then you should be able to dodge it. Remember Cap is moving at the same speed as Superman. Also, the shield would be traveling at no more than light speed. Superman easily can dodge that speed.

The skill gap isn't astronomical. Superman is highly skilled. He has CA like feats and feats doing krpytonian martial arts.

But the two are equal in speed per OP. Skill does not matter.

h1a8
Originally posted by carver9
What wind breath showings does Superman have that proves he can stop a shield toss from a VIBRANIUM WEAPON that absorbs kinetic energy from a person with ELITE strength. I need you to think on this for a bit. Think about this before you answer the question. Superman heat vision will get absorbed.
Any force can stop the shield. It just takes time.
The shield would be slowing down the moment Cap performs the throwing motion. The shield absorbing kinetic energy has no bearing on being blown away. The shield has been batted away or deflected by DD and street levelers. Even caught. Cap throws it and it easily ricochets off walls with little loss of momentum.

XLR87T3
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Who are you, XLR87T3?

Your profile is saying you registered in 2016, but nobody remembers you.

Please identify yourself or I'll call gangsters with big dicks like Bada or Pr to investigate. Trust me, you don't want them to investigate.

They don't use lube. Hahaha I'm actually a lurker mostly, although I'll give a comment every now and then. Basically a fly on the wall.

Does that answer your question?

Mindship
Originally posted by spetznaz
Captain America in both scenarios ... Steve is used to fighting more powerful opponents, and has adapted his skills and fighting abilities towards that. Giving him the strength, speed, invulnerability etc of Superman would basically result in ... ... Captain Nigh Unbeatable. I presume Cap also doesn't have any of Supes' weaknesses? And Cap is also a master tactician.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by XLR87T3
Hahaha I'm actually a lurker mostly, although I'll give a comment every now and then. Basically a fly on the wall.

Does that answer your question?

You're safe for now, yes.

Why you never posted in 2017? Busy year or what?

deathslash
Originally posted by h1a8
Cap can't travel faster than hv the first instant. He needs to speed up to light speed. Also I stated that Superman deflects the shield with hv or shoots at Cap while he's in his throwing motion. Cap can't throw the shield and try to avoid getting hit by hv at the same time.

Also Superman can use hv at close range (h2h range).


I never claimed that Superman can hit Cap with hv at a sufficiently large distance. He can easily hit Cap with it at close distances though. riiight. Cause cap hasn't dodged bullets while accurately throwing his shield before.

I highly doubt that Clark will hit him with heat vision in close combat before cap breaks both of his legs, both of his arms, four ribs, his collarbone, his pelvis, and then his neck with his vastly superior h2h skill. Hell, wonder woman's avoided the heat vision at close range. Why can't cap (who's entire history consists of dodging what he can't block) manage to dodge it?

h1a8
Originally posted by deathslash
riiight. Cause cap hasn't dodged bullets while accurately throwing his shield before.

I highly doubt that Clark will hit him with heat vision in close combat before cap breaks both of his legs, both of his arms, four ribs, his collarbone, his pelvis, and then his neck with his vastly superior h2h skill. Hell, wonder woman's avoided the heat vision at close range. Why can't cap (who's entire history consists of dodging what he can't block) manage to dodge it?

No he hasn't. He only has one feat that I'm aware of actually dodging a bullet after the fire. He moved his head a half of foot (not his body). The other feats are aim dodging and don't count.

He moves at the same speed Superman moves. Thus Superman can easily block his attacks and counter with hv. Superman can go intangible. Superman can hit Cap with hv before Cap can throw a punch or kick. It's much faster than punch.

WW got beamed at close range. She uses her bracers to block from further distances. And Cap doesn't get WWs feats. Neither does Superman.

ghostman
wind breath showings.......sigh

DarkSaint85
Yeah.

Exactly when we have scans of Wonder Woman - the best deflector in DC, who does exactly what Cap does, only with smaller deflectors - being frozen.

deathslash
Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. He only has one feat that I'm aware of actually dodging a bullet after the fire. He moved his head a half of foot (not his body). The other feats are aim dodging and don't count.

He moves at the same speed Superman moves. Thus Superman can easily block his attacks and counter with hv. Superman can go intangible. Superman can hit Cap with hv before Cap can throw a punch or kick. It's much faster than punch.

WW got beamed at close range. She uses her bracers to block from further distances. And Cap doesn't get WWs feats. Neither does Superman. ..... It's almost like you don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6147/0eb72b1a9c77989b8e5cd8b21234271a77f38ea4_hq.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a56f556169d454a9e01a6309842f83b-c
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/65209/1202118-captain_america.jpg
https://m.imgur.com/lNrqHEA

It's even an established fact that he dodges bullets often enough for it to be commented on.
https://m.imgur.com/SktzNMF

He even dodges lasers ffs.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/AaYdU

And cap somehow is incapable of going intangible like Superman? He's incapable of dodging the heat vision with his faster than light reaction speed? He can't avoid his aim like he has with so many others?

no expression
It's not cool to lie.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60553/1134431-wonder_woman_v2_219_15.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60553/1134430-wonder_woman_v2_219_16.jpg

DarkSaint85
Cool.

So we're using WWs performances as a proxy.

Someone got that freeze breath scan handy?

deathslash
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

So we're using WWs performances as a proxy.

Someone got that freeze breath scan handy? lol. I'm just pointing out that H1 is lying about her ability to dodge his heat vision.

XLR87T3
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You're safe for now, yes.

Why you never posted in 2017? Busy year or what? Personal issues, which I don't want to get into

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by XLR87T3
Personal issues, which I don't want to get into

Okay, cool.

Philosophía
Originally posted by deathslash
lol. I'm just pointing out that H1 is lying about her ability to dodge his heat vision. You could've done that better than by using something other than Superman hallucinating a parallel fight with 7 foot monster.

It's like thinking you're fighting Shaq instead of Ronda Rousey.

h1a8
Originally posted by deathslash
..... It's almost like you don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6147/0eb72b1a9c77989b8e5cd8b21234271a77f38ea4_hq.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a56f556169d454a9e01a6309842f83b-c
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/65209/1202118-captain_america.jpg
https://m.imgur.com/lNrqHEA

It's even an established fact that he dodges bullets often enough for it to be commented on.
https://m.imgur.com/SktzNMF

He even dodges lasers ffs.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/AaYdU



And cap somehow is incapable of going intangible like Superman? He's incapable of dodging the heat vision with his faster than light reaction speed? He can't avoid his aim like he has with so many others?

no expression
It's not cool to lie.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60553/1134431-wonder_woman_v2_219_15.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60553/1134430-wonder_woman_v2_219_16.jpg

In the first scan, it's inconclusive to whether Cap raise the shield before or after the bullet exited the barrel.

Other scans are just AIM DODGING. WW is actively moving so it's possible for her to be aim dodging too. In other words, Superman just missed.
I'm not saying Cap can't evade the hv from a distance. But he won't while actively throwing the shield.

Also, again Cap has dodged a bullet after the fire once (that I can recall). It was in winter soldier arc. He normally needs the shield to block them.

Going intangible is a skill. Cap doesn't have the know how to do it. He doesn't have the experience here. He just has the stats, not the knowledge.

gauntlet o doom
Given Superman's durability, will Captain America have a problem with the Heat Vision? Is it maximum heat from the initial blast or does it take time to increase in temperature?

DarkSaint85
It's up to him.

He's hurt Zod (and vice versa) with HV.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.