blue vegito & fused zamasu vs beerus & jiren

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MrMind
who wins

SSJGGogeta
Beerus probably solos. I wouldn't trust Supreme Kai's statement too much, considering Goku and co. were completely confident that Beerus being present would have ended the Zamasu problem.

Sj_Sharp
Jiren > Vegetto Blue (at least in the manga) ~ Beerus > Merged Zamasu

As far as raw power goes, team 2 takes this comfortably, even more so because Vegetto would last few minutes since his power is too big for Potara to sustain it further than that.

NewGuy01
Fused Zamasu can't be killed, though.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Fused Zamasu can't be killed, though.

He seemed pretty confident that Goku's hakai would kill him, to the point of even saying he cursed his weakness for having to resort to such a cowardly method to win.

Beerus' hakai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku's hakai

One Big Mob
Didn't Shin not know dick about Beerus until he resurfaced? Now he's an expert on the ever evolving abilities and limits of Beerus?

That being said, even if he were equal or slightly more powerful, he is likely going to tire out before Beerus even ignoring the fusion limit.


Jiren is just ridiculous to throw in though

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team 1, due to Zamasu. Beerus concedes he cant straight up kill immortals.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
He seemed pretty confident that Goku's hakai would kill him, to the point of even saying he cursed his weakness for having to resort to such a cowardly method to win.

Beerus' hakai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku's hakai

I feel the same way about that scene, but Beerus outright tells Goku that he couldn't have killed Zamasu. Apparently he could seal him like he did the Elder Kai, but its unclear if that's something that would require preparation or Whis's assistance.

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Didn't Shin not know dick about Beerus until he resurfaced? Now he's an expert on the ever evolving abilities and limits of Beerus? That was only in the BoG film, iirc.

As of Super, Kaioshin seems very familiar with Beerus and all of the upper-end Gods(he ported everyone to Zen-Oh's palace, ffs.)

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Galan007
That was only in the BoG film, iirc.

As of Super, Kaioshin seems very familiar with Beerus and all of the upper-end Gods(he ported everyone to Zen-Oh's palace, ffs.) oRWC1DsdQ8A



He seemed to be learning of him after he awoke. I mean he did sense his power so it's possible though unlikely he knew too much.

The Zeno one was even odder if you will though. He went from a shitty little God to knowing an awful lot about everything. A possible explanation is that Old Kai actually filled him in about this shit finally, and showed him how to reach Zeno.

Galan007
"Yes, I'm aware of this."

He knew about Beerus and the purpose/function he served as a Hakaishin(which makes sense, given that we now know their lives are intimately linked together.) What he didn't seem to know is how battle-hungry and irritable Beerus(in particular) was... Which still doesn't make sense, because he should have seen Beerus in action at *some* point in his tenure as Kaioshin, but I digress -- some plot-points in DBS are just so inconsistent and nonsensical that I don't even bother trying to fill-in the gaps. /shrug

Tbh, I think they just made Kaioshin appear more all-knowing in future episodes/arcs, because in-depth cosmic knowledge IS something he should possess if nothing else, period.

bbrem123
And considering the fact that if one dies so does the other. You would think they would know everything about eachother.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Galan007
"Yes, I'm aware of this."

He knew about Beerus and the purpose/function he served as a Hakaishin(which makes sense, given that we now know their lives are intimately linked together.) What he didn't seem to know is how battle-hungry and irritable Beerus(in particular) was... Which still doesn't make sense, because he should have seen Beerus in action at *some* point in his tenure as Kaioshin, but I digress -- some plot-points in DBS are just so inconsistent and nonsensical that I don't even bother trying to fill-in the gaps. /shrug

Tbh, I think they just made Kaioshin appear more all-knowing in future episodes/arcs, because in-depth cosmic knowledge IS something he should possess if nothing else, period. Seems like he just knew vague shit, and him not knowing the big traits of Beerus shows how little he knew.

He probably learned everything from little talks with Elder Kai like that one. And then he learned enough to be of merit in situations like this. You'd think him knowing all about Zeno would stow amazement at anything below it though.

It really seems like something they'd teach in Kai school though. Iirc Gowasu was teaching Zamasu about everything and he wasn't even a Kai yet. Shin was a full fledged Kai by the time everyone else died.


In all honesty, being maybe above Beerus doesn't reflect badly on Beerus considering how OP the potara fusion is with blue on top of it. I just doubt he ever got the measure of Beerus is all. And with the ever sliding powers of Beerus...

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Seems like he just knew vague shit, and him not knowing the big traits of Beerus shows how little he knew.

He probably learned everything from little talks with Elder Kai like that one. And then he learned enough to be of merit in situations like this. You'd think him knowing all about Zeno would stow amazement at anything below it though. Maybe, but it wasn't implied anywhere that Old Kai had been teaching him or w/e. Shin just seemed to know things on a more esoteric/cosmic scale as DBS progressed.

-That if he were killed, Beerus would be killed by proxy.
-That time rings exist and can give Kaioshin access to other universes.
-That parallel timelines can inadvertently be created by the use of time rings.
-That he's interacted with the Kaioshin of other universes.
-The true function of Potara earrings.
-Where Zen-Oh's palace was(implying he'd been there before.)
-The personalities of Zen-Oh and Daishinkan.
-Anywhere mortals reside in U7, along with the respective 'mortal count' of U7.
etc. etc.

This is knowledge I would expect a f*cking Kaioshin to have, so I'm glad they finally threw Shin a bone in that respect.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It really seems like something they'd teach in Kai school though. Iirc Gowasu was teaching Zamasu about everything and he wasn't even a Kai yet. Shin was a full fledged Kai by the time everyone else died. He was definitely aware of the essential 'balance' Kaioshin share with Hakaishin. He was also definitely aware of Beerus as well.

But yeah, he didn't appear to be as familiar with Beerus' personality nearly as much as Old Kai was... Which would only make sense if Beerus hadn't been around since Shin had become a Kaioshin, but that definitely wasn't the case. So I chalk it up to more retarded DBS inconsistency, tbh. /shrug

Originally posted by One Big Mob
In all honesty, being maybe above Beerus doesn't reflect badly on Beerus considering how OP the potara fusion is with blue on top of it. I just doubt he ever got the measure of Beerus is all. And with the ever sliding powers of Beerus... I've said this before. thumb up

When Shin made that comment in the Zamasu arc, he had only seen a very small portion of Beerus' power. He couldn't have possibly been referring to a full power Beerus, because he'd never seen a full power Beerus.

Hell, the only time Shin has ever legitimately seen Beerus go all-out was when he was beating ALL of the other Hakaishin simultaneously, during the manga's rendition of the zen exhibition match... But that was after the Zamasu arc.

One Big Mob
I think you're giving Shin too much credit. While he should know these things, he was completely clueless about Beerus.

"Is Lord Beerus really so awesome?"
"You mean to tell me his purpose is..."

Which shows he knew nothing really at the time of him and even thought 8 and a half planets was a lot. laughing out loud

Without going the inconsistency angle (which is the real reason), an in universe explanation is he was like "OK Old Man, tell me everything you know."

But yeah, Shin should know, and I'm glad he does now. My headcanon is Elder Kai finally taught him this shit. In reality he should have known this all along. In Super he goes from being completely stupid to knowing complex shit so...

The Potara retcon alone highlights this. Elder Kai taught him about it, and then he realizes that mortals can only stay like that for an hour. He definitely hit the Kai books hard on that one.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by bbrem123
And considering the fact that if one dies so does the other. You would think they would know everything about eachother.

Beerus also speaks like he knows him during the Future Zamasu arc, complaining about how he's "always too reckless."

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think you're giving Shin too much credit. While he should know these things, he was completely clueless about Beerus.

"Is Lord Beerus really so awesome?"
"You mean to tell me his purpose is..." Right. Shin initially knew that Beerus existed, and was also aware of the fundamental roles that he and Beerus shared as the proverbial 'cosmic figureheads' of U7...

Old Kai: "In this world we have Gods who create and give life, like you and I... And on the other side of the balance, there exist Gods who destroy planets and end lives. That is who the God of Destruction, Lord Beerus, is."

Shin: "Yes, I'm aware of this."

...He just didn't know much about Beerus' personality in those first few episodes, cuz inconsistency. The fact that Shin knew about Beerus(and his function) suggests that he might have already known about some of the other esoteric shit he spoke of later on in the series, though -- especially given that in future arcs, he seemed to act like he and Beerus have a long history together, and that he frowns upon Beerus' hijinks. /shrug

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But yeah, Shin should know, and I'm glad he does now. My headcanon is Elder Kai finally taught him this shit. In reality he should have known this all along. In Super he goes from being completely stupid to knowing complex shit so... I think it's just because Shin took the far more prominent role in the series, while Old Kai took a hard backseat -- Shin became the bonafide 'sagely' Kaioshin he should have always been, while Old Kai just reverted into a cosmic perv/comedic relief. If Shin really gave a f*ck about learning anything from Old Kai, he would have started picking his brain LONG before BoG, me thinks.

As the plot grew, Shin's knowledge also kind of *had* to grow as a corollary, imo. Keeping Shin as stupid/ill-informed as he came off in the Boo saga, for example, would have been extra retarded when we learned a.) there is a larger multiverse beyond U7, b.) each universe has an entirely different set of Gods running things, and c.) there is an all-powerful 'Lord of Everything' who is the boss of it all.

Had Shin stayed ignorant to such flagrant cosmological facts, it would have been entirely inexcusable and made NO sense at all considering every other one of the Gods in existence seems to know this shit.

srug

One Big Mob
I agree his knowledge had to grow, I just think he started off even in Super ignorant as shit.

As the series progressed he started knowing things that would have helped earlier, and it's like "Hey, **** you Shin." I understand they weren't concepts yet, but it pops into your mind in a series.

He is now at least portrayed as a Kai, albeit kind of homoish. Even now like Newguy said he's acting like he's always known Beerus. Shin has had the biggest character progression in the series imo.

Galan007
thumb up

SSJGGogeta
You know, another big thing that puzzles me- is why Beerus' life is only connected to Shins. We know from way back in DBZ that there were originally 4 kaioshin's, and one Grand Kaioshin watching the 7th universe before Buu killed all of them other than Shin.

Why is it that there is apparently only one supreme kai in every other universe, and no Daikaio-sama? Did Toriyama and co. literally forget that Shin is just the Supreme Kai of the East, not the Supreme Kai of the universe? And that Daikaio-sama existed in the first place? Lol

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You know, another big thing that puzzles me- is why Beerus' life is only connected to Shins. We know from way back in DBZ that there were originally 4 kaioshin's, and one Grand Kaioshin watching the 7th universe before Buu killed all of them other than Shin.

Why is it that there is apparently only one supreme kai in every other universe, and no Daikaio-sama? Did Toriyama and co. literally forget that Shin is just the Supreme Kai of the East, not the Supreme Kai of the universe? And that Daikaio-sama existed in the first place? Lol Because Universe 7 is useless. Destroying Majin Buu is supposed to be the job of the God of Destruction as well, but they were just gearing up to die. It seems like once Old Kai was trapped, they tried to over compensate by having a whole bunch of Gods instead of one.

In Universe 10 there was going to be 2 though, and we also learn that Zamasu used to be a Kai of worlds, which we assume would be like King Kai.

You could connect the dots and assume that once Old Kai went away they ascended to this position to cover it well. Shin went through all his training, etc.

It's not really explained, but you can connect the dots a little from the Manga where they meet Zamasu.


I would assume Old Kai is still connected to Beerus though. If not it throws a big wrench in the whole thing.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because Universe 7 is useless. Destroying Majin Buu is supposed to be the job of the God of Destruction as well, but they were just gearing up to die. It seems like once Old Kai was trapped, they tried to over compensate by having a whole bunch of Gods instead of one.

In Universe 10 there was going to be 2 though, and we also learn that Zamasu used to be a Kai of worlds, which we assume would be like King Kai.

You could connect the dots and assume that once Old Kai went away they ascended to this position to cover it well. Shin went through all his training, etc.

It's not really explained, but you can connect the dots a little from the Manga where they meet Zamasu.


I would assume Old Kai is still connected to Beerus though. If not it throws a big wrench in the whole thing.

Even with that massive assumption, we're still left with no explanation as to why there is no Daikaio sama in every other universe, or why Shin was the only Supreme Kai whose life was connected to Beerus.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Even with that massive assumption, we're still left with no explanation as to why there is no Daikaio sama in every other universe, or why Shin was the only Supreme Kai whose life was connected to Beerus. First to ascend after Old Kai left? Took on some grand title after recruiting more of them?
Maybe they were all connected and you had to get rid of them all? A better failsafe.

But the other universes are actually capable universes and don't need shit like this. Who knows, I'm just trying to make sense of it.

Galan007
4 'normal' Kaioshin + 1 Dai Kaioshin + 1 Elder Kaioshin = 6 Kaioshin in total.

Maybe they were the Kaioshin from the 6 universes Zen-Oh destroyed eons ago. Yes, that would be a tremendous asspull... But this is DBS we're talking about. F*ck continuity. thumb up

Inedian
If we use manga, team 1 wins. Merged Zamasu was making more and more expansions of himself (thousands of them). Beerus said he wouldn't be able to destroy Zamasu. Sooner or later MZ would overwhelm team 2. He doesn't need Vegito. He would easily be too much, no contest.

No expansion abilities for MZ, team 2 wins.

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