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Was he ever a Dark Lord of the Sith? Did he ever stop being a Sith Lord, and if so, when did he stop being one?

He Gave Out Titles of Darth, to Malak/Revan. So I'd assume he was one technically, even though his comments to the Outlander indicate he never truly followed Sith dogma. You could say, by the time he found Valkorian, sometime after the events of Revan's Novel. His ideology, could not be applied to being Sith.

But i'm sure omniscient Fresh, can explain it more accurately.

Yes, he is a Sith Lord. Failkorion's debatable but it's downright retarded to argue that Vitiate isn't.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Was he ever a Dark Lord of the Sith? Did he ever stop being a Sith Lord, and if so, when did he stop being one?

Well, what's your criteria for Sith Lord?

7sbIcaD4Dc8

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, what's your criteria for Sith Lord?

A loose one. In other words, if a quote says sidious is the most powerful DLOS, does that include vitiate ?

He was for a little time. But he saw those ways were flawed.

Originally posted by JMANGO
A loose one. In other words, if a quote says sidious is the most powerful DLOS, does that include vitiate ?

Yes, because his title is Sith. What his personal beliefs on the matter are is irrelevant. I could literally show you a quote saying Palpatine was nothing more than a mask of Sidious, but only an absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid person would say he wasn't the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. He was still the leader of a democratic system, just as Vitiate was the leader of a Sith Empire. That's all there is to it.

The Sith are a religious movement, shmuck.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Was he ever a Dark Lord of the Sith? Did he ever stop being a Sith Lord, and if so, when did he stop being one?
FYI: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/tenebrae-slave-to-hunger-and-false-sith/131155/

He can be viewed as a Sith Lord until he reached the stage of Voices and began to wear both Sith Emperor and Immortal Emperor masks for two different Empires respectively.

Prior to Voices = YES

Voices (and later) = NO

I consider myself to be an IRL sith. That is why I'm going to law school

Vitiate was never a Darth, if that's what you mean by "Dark Lord of the Sith."

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, because his title is Sith. What his personal beliefs on the matter are is irrelevant. I could literally show you a quote saying Palpatine was nothing more than a mask of Sidious, but only an absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid person would say he wasn't the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. He was still the leader of a democratic system, just as Vitiate was the leader of a Sith Empire. That's all there is to it.

So you agree he stopped being a Sith when he becomes Valk. He becomes Valk before Exar Kun's death.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, because his title is Sith. What his personal beliefs on the matter are is irrelevant. I could literally show you a quote saying Palpatine was nothing more than a mask of Sidious, but only an absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid person would say he wasn't the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. He was still the leader of a democratic system, just as Vitiate was the leader of a Sith Empire. That's all there is to it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


LMAO, wut? If I was once a Russian, but defected to the United States, but still maintained my role in their armada as a spy, would I still be allied to the Russians?

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
LMAO, wut? If I was once a Russian, but defected to the United States, but still maintained my role in their armada as a spy, would I still be allied to the Russians?

A better analogy would be that whether a certain member of Stalin's politburo really believed in communism doesn't change whether they were a member of said politburo. The question here is whether "Sith Lord" is better defined as a member of an organization or a believer in a faith. I personally think it's the former. E.g. Palpatine himself didn't really "believe" in the Sith code.

He did believe. He just had his own Rule of One. And Sithism and Jediism are religios movements. It's not the same as being a chancellor or whatsover.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A better analogy would be that whether a certain member of Stalin's politburo really believed in communism doesn't change whether they were a member of said politburo. The question here is whether "Sith Lord" is better defined as a member of an organization or a believer in a faith. I personally think it's the former. E.g. Palpatine himself didn't really "believe" in the Sith code.

It's not a matter of him rejecting the philosophy. To quote a Senior TOR writer, "he left the Sith faction." Palpatine's allegiances remain with the sith whereas Valkoriate has ostensibly left the faction all together. The problem with your analogy is that the member of Stalin's politburo still belongs to that group, he is not a spy for the Americans.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
It's not a matter of him rejecting the philosophy. To quote a Senior TOR writer, "he left the Sith faction." Palpatine's allegiances remain with the sith whereas Valkoriate has ostensibly left the faction all together. The problem with your analogy is that the member of Stalin's politburo still belongs to that group, he is not a spy for the Americans.

I guess that's true, or at least reasonable, for Valkorion, but as of vanilla SWTOR Vitiate was very clearly aligned with the Sith.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I guess that's true, or at least reasonable, for Valkorion, but as of vanilla SWTOR Vitiate was very clearly aligned with the Sith.

Well, that is where you are wrong. I can demonstrate with 99% certainty that SWTOR Vitiate was Valkorion. In fact, so was Novel Vitaite.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Well, that is where you are wrong. I can demonstrate with 99% certainty that SWTOR Vitiate was Valkorion. In fact, so was Novel Vitaite.

Well, he was both. Not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, he was both. Not sure why they have to be mutually exclusive.

Again, Samantha Wallschlaeger has confirmed that he left the Sith Faction. He was not both; he was an American Spy on Russian turf.

Ironic

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate was never a Darth, if that's what you mean by "Dark Lord of the Sith."

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6354613-vitiate+is+a+sith.png

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
So you agree he stopped being a Sith when he becomes Valk. He becomes Valk before Exar Kun's death.

No, I don't agree he stopped being a Sith after he became Failk.

I dunno why you name him Failkorion? Palpatine was an even bigger loser than Vitiate. He got owned twice. Once by a sand hating teenager and then by a smuggler.

Originally posted by Azronger
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6354613-vitiate+is+a+sith.png

Good work Az.

Clearly, being a heir to marka ragnos. Means shit to Post Novel Vitiate though.

so when does he stop being a sith lord hasch?

Originally posted by JMANGO
Good work Az.

At your service.

Around the time, when he went to Zakuul/possessed Valkorian, is when we can confirm his Ideology didn't conform to the sith.

Mhmm, and the rest of his empire/Galaxy have no Idea of what he conforms to, or how he thinks, asides from maybe Revan, during this time. But the fact is, their opinion/thoughts don't matter, when It comes down to what Vitiate was. You can label an ex racist, a racist, but they may not be. Does that still make them a racist, being reliant on misinformed/outdated knowledge. no it doesn't.

So he sheds his limitations sometime after the Revan Novel?

Originally posted by Azronger
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6354613-vitiate+is+a+sith.png
That's IU. The "Darth" title was likely given to him by later historians, similar to Darth Naga Sadow.

Due to OU time reasons, there seems to be no IU records of the Revanite crisis, Eternal Empire, etc.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's IU. The "Darth" title was likely given to him by later historians, similar to Darth Naga Sadow.

Due to OU time reasons, there seems to be no IU records of the Revanite crisis, Eternal Empire, etc.

The fact he gave Darth Titles to Malak/Revan, sort of indicate he did hold Sith philosophies back then.

don't forget Darth Nyriss

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's IU. The "Darth" title was likely given to him by later historians, similar to Darth Naga Sadow.

Due to OU time reasons, there seems to be no IU records of the Revanite crisis, Eternal Empire, etc.

Doesn't matter. The point I'm illustrating is that regardless of the guy's personal beliefs in the matter, he clearly was acknowledged as a Sith Lord by historical sources (which are based off of actual historical records), and his title is Sith, just like with Darth Nihilus.

I don't see why you people have to make this needlessly complex. Palpatine was never a democrat as far as personal ideologies went, but he was still the leader of a democratic system. Or should I open the floodgate and let loose the endless stream of LeGenDary conspiracy theories about how Palpatine was never the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SzXqtz3dV3w/WrNTWlul_dI/AAAAAAAAIG4/JQRNSPyvXpkSThXqTZpiyRVlYZhT2QeDQCL0BGAYYCw/h235/4625046008515173448%253Faccount_id%253D1

Have fun.

Philosophically no, but much like Darth Nihilus the history books identified him as one regardless.

Originally posted by Azronger
Doesn't matter. The point I'm illustrating is that regardless of the guy's personal beliefs in the matter, he clearly was acknowledged as a Sith Lord by historical sources (which are based off of actual historical records), and his title is Sith, just like with Darth Nihilus.

@Azronger: The fact Tenebrae was the leader of the Sith Empire doesn't automatically bind him to the Sith Order. Tenebrae used the Sith Empire purely as a tool, with the Vitiate/Emperor persona as an intentional mask. If Tenebrae also created a mask and took control of the Jedi Order as Grand Master under the name "Gooditie," we wouldn't consider him a Jedi Master.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Azronger: The fact Tenebrae was the leader of the Sith Empire doesn't automatically bind him to the Sith Order. Tenebrae used the Sith Empire purely as a tool, with the Vitiate/Emperor persona as an intentional mask. If Tenebrae also created a mask and took control of the Jedi Order as Grand Master under the name "Gooditie," we wouldn't consider him a Jedi Master.

This literally addressed nothing; much of the same standards can be applied to Sidious in equal measure: he used the Republic purely as a tool, he created the benevolent old man Palpatine persona as an intentional mask. And under that mask, he took control of the Republic, yet me and you (I hope) consider him the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

If Vitiate took control of the Jedi Order as the Grand Master, then yes, I would wholeheartedly classify him as a Jedi Master, as should any reasonable and logical individual. The idea that the leader of the Jedi Order whose title is Jedi Master yet shouldn't be considered a Jedi Master makes zero sense. The fact that the person doesn't actually believe the ideology he endorses externally is completely irrelevant and beside the point.

If this is a semantics game, then what matters is the semantics of the OOU narrators, and those narrators have consistently sided with labeling Vitiate/Nihilus/Palpatine/etc. as Sith Lords. In the rare occasions that they don't, it's as a very targeted point.

So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

Originally posted by JMANGO
So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

I'm leaning towards no, because aside from one or two exceptions Valkorion not being a Sith is repeated quite a few times and even used as a plot point. He doesn't command Sith anymore, he brags about how he's transcended them, etc. But I'm open to having my mind changed.

Originally posted by JMANGO
So it looks like Vitiate is a DLOS. At least until he becomes Valk. Any objections to this?

He's a Sith all the way up to the end of the vanilla game. After that he turns his back to the Empire and his followers turn their backs on him.

The codex still refers to him as a Sith entity even as Failkorion, though. The devs have given their explanation:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oZ5rm9-70II/WaoFpDOSTfI/AAAAAAAACkc/wn9hIpYmQTEODUCa5EJg4vdFr7HYXD6OwCL0BGAYYCw/h448/2017-09-01.png

But that's utter nonsense. Does this look like a member of the Sith species to you?

http://www.jodocast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/valkorianSpirit.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9c/Sith_Pureblood.jpg

I would just ignore whatever comes out of the devs' mouths personally.

It's pretty odd that they never fully clarified whether the entity the Hero fought really was Vitiates true body or not. He certainly looked human but he could just be heavily corrupted and doesn't have face tentacles.

@ Az, obviously he means that Vitiate was originally a Sith Pureblood and so even though he takes on a human appearance his essence/true racial identity is still that of a Sith Pureblood.

Originally posted by Azronger
Doesn't matter. The point I'm illustrating is that regardless of the guy's personal beliefs in the matter, he clearly was acknowledged as a Sith Lord by historical sources (which are based off of actual historical records), and his title is Sith, just like with Darth Nihilus.

I don't see why you people have to make this needlessly complex. Palpatine was never a democrat as far as personal ideologies went, but he was still the leader of a democratic system. Or should I open the floodgate and let loose the endless stream of LeGenDary conspiracy theories about how Palpatine was never the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SzXqtz3dV3w/WrNTWlul_dI/AAAAAAAAIG4/JQRNSPyvXpkSThXqTZpiyRVlYZhT2QeDQCL0BGAYYCw/h235/4625046008515173448%253Faccount_id%253D1

Have fun.

Az, because personal ideology isn't the only reason why we don't consider Vitaite to be a Sith. To quote a senior TOR writer, Vitiate "left the sith faction" when he became Valkorion. Vitiate serves as a wolf in sheep's clothing. We don't consider a wolf a sheep, in the same way, we don't consider Vitiate is a Sith.

Originally posted by Azronger
He's a Sith all the way up to the end of the vanilla game. After that he turns his back to the Empire and his followers turn their backs on him.

The codex still refers to him as a Sith entity even as Failkorion, though. The devs have given their explanation:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oZ5rm9-70II/WaoFpDOSTfI/AAAAAAAACkc/wn9hIpYmQTEODUCa5EJg4vdFr7HYXD6OwCL0BGAYYCw/h448/2017-09-01.png

But that's utter nonsense. Does this look like a member of the Sith species to you?

http://www.jodocast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/valkorianSpirit.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9c/Sith_Pureblood.jpg

I would just ignore whatever comes out of the devs' mouths personally.

LMAO, Vitiate belongs to the Sith species, he appears in the form in which he dies, but that does not change his original species.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
So you agree he stopped being a Sith when he becomes Valk. He becomes Valk before Exar Kun's death.

Harrison, where is the argument that Vit became Valk as early as this?

Just like a human spirit/apparition still sports the word "human", Valk carries the terms Sith all the same.

Something I've been stating since before the devs quote; a simple concept to grasp, honestly.

Your comment has made you Azronger.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Harrison, where is the argument that Vit became Valk as early as this?

Here is the good question. (not being condescending this is actually the important question) Skillz and I stumbled upon this tidbit accidentally. When the Outlander arrives on Yavin 4, he meets a Dashade known as Ak'ghal Usar. Ak'ghal Usar went to Yavin 4 to kill Exar Kun. When he arrived, the world was devastated by his ritual. Ak'ghal Usar's anger prompted his desire to resurrect Kun. He found the Temple of Sacrifice(this is Zakuulian technology). Vitiate immediately arrives at the world to protect "his precious temple." While it is possible that Vitiate was aware of the temple due to research, Charles Boyd's statements certainly indicate otherwise. Boyd claims that Zakuul was in technology primitive state before Valkorion's arrival. This certainly that indicates that Valkorion commissioned the building of the temple. So, to summarize we have three pieces of evidence.

1. Valkorion always has a backup plan and is obsessed with immortality.

2. It makes literally no sense that the Zakuulians would build a random temple with the properties of the Temple of Sacrifice on Yavin 4, considering the fact that they were on the edges of the galaxy.

3. Zakuul was in a technologically primitive state before Valkorion's arrival.

I'd consider Vitiate a full Sith until after his duel with Revan and discovery of Zakuul.

Originally posted by darthbane77
I'd consider Vitiate a full Sith until after his duel with Revan and discovery of Zakuul.

He discovered Zakuul before his duel with Revan.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
He discovered Zakuul before his duel with Revan. I was under the impression it wasn't until after he fought Revan, but I could be wrong.

He held the position and title of Sith lord, yes.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Here is the good question. (not being condescending this is actually the important question) Skillz and I stumbled upon this tidbit accidentally. When the Outlander arrives on Yavin 4, he meets a Dashade known as Ak'ghal Usar. Ak'ghal Usar went to Yavin 4 to kill Exar Kun. When he arrived, the world was devastated by his ritual. Ak'ghal Usar's anger prompted his desire to resurrect Kun. He found the Temple of Sacrifice(this is Zakuulian technology). Vitiate immediately arrives at the world to protect "his precious temple." While it is possible that Vitiate was aware of the temple due to research, Charles Boyd's statements certainly indicate otherwise. Boyd claims that Zakuul was in technology primitive state before Valkorion's arrival. This certainly that indicates that Valkorion commissioned the building of the temple. So, to summarize we have three pieces of evidence.

1. Valkorion always has a backup plan and is obsessed with immortality.

2. It makes literally no sense that the Zakuulians would build a random temple with the properties of the Temple of Sacrifice on Yavin 4, considering the fact that they were on the edges of the galaxy.

3. Zakuul was in a technologically primitive state before Valkorion's arrival.


Do we have definite evidence that the Zakullians built this temple?

If so, do we have evidence Vitiate became Valkorion at this point outside of Boyd's non canon musing? It only makes sense that Vit became Valk after Revan. The latter's assassination attempt scaring the shit out of him, prompting him to grow more powerful and learn how to transfer his essence into his "voices". This would of course include the body of Valkorion at some point.

-

^^^

Vitiate became Valkorion (after) the events of Revan.

In SWTOR, we interact with Voices of Valkorion. Sith Emperor at this stage is just a mask. Another mask is the Immortal Emperor for the Zakuul.

You can say that Valkorion was wearing two masks at a time; Sith Emperor (for the Sith) and Immortal Emperor (for Zakuulians).

Valkorion is not a Sith lord or even a Sith.

He is neither Zakuulan nor Sith. In the end he shall forever stand alone.

imo it's kind of stupid, but Valkorion is over a thousand years old. Heskal states that the Knights of Zakuul are over one thousand years old:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ooq5tzrYxVk/WsJqecm1MwI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/nENsYeMB97kjPp1Nm97NoUyZ3bsclInUwCK8BGAs/s512/2018-04-02.png

And the codex tells us that Valkorion formed the Knights of Zakuul:

So Valkorion is now a heretic Jedi? Lame.

So Vitiates been pulling these kinds of shenanigans almost since Nathema, huh?

Thats interesting. I wonder if that means his power was spread out over 2 bodies as of the Revan fight. I'd explain why he needs to gather his power at the start of the fight.

No? Nathema is a few hundred years before he became Valkorion.

"Over" a thousand years. :>

Originally posted by Nephthys
So Vitiates been pulling these kinds of shenanigans almost since Nathema, huh?

Thats interesting. I wonder if that means his power was spread out over 2 bodies as of the Revan fight. I'd explain why he needs to gather his power at the start of the fight.

Still a heretic Jedi.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No? Nathema is a few hundred years before he became Valkorion.

Speaking relatively here. A few hundred years is pretty close when you're talking about 1300 years in total.

Not really.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"Over" a thousand years. :>
And Boyd says, "As the years go by," so I'm right anyway. estahuh

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
imo it's kind of stupid, but Valkorion is over a thousand years old. Heskal states that the Knights of Zakuul are over one thousand years old:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ooq5tzrYxVk/WsJqecm1MwI/AAAAAAAAAmQ/nENsYeMB97kjPp1Nm97NoUyZ3bsclInUwCK8BGAs/s512/2018-04-02.png

And the codex tells us that Valkorion formed the Knights of Zakuul:

That's almost certainly an oversight on the part of the authors, though you could argue that doesn't invalidate it.

And why is it "almost certain" again?

Because Elm said so, duh!

Originally posted by ILS
Because Elm said so, duh!

That's actually something ILS had said before, though I agree "ILS said so" is the dumbest possible reason to believe something.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's actually something ILS had said before, though I agree "ILS said so" is the dumbest possible reason to believe something. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/08/09/ae08094dece708515ffbd79cb6147dd9.jpg

SOMEONE GET ME AN AMBULANCE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

lol like you could afford an ambulance

Well, he's scottish, so he doesn't need to. Benefits of living in a moral country I guess mmm

Originally posted by Selenial
Well, he's scottish, so he doesn't need to.

Ahhh true, I stand corrected.

So is Vit a Sith Lord during Revan?

He is Shit!