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The two great Jedi Masters, a former master apprebrice pair face off against each other.

All out. Morals on but fighting seriously. Fight takes place in the fields of Dantooine. Who wins?

"Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he
knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics."

There's also the fact that Dooku was stated to be =/> Mace before he even left the Order... Which means he was regarded as the Order's #2 swordsman on average(with only Yoda himself being definitively superior.)


Qui-Gon... Wasn't.

Originally posted by Kurk
"Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he
knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics."

What provoked this thread tbh

I wanted a glimpse as to where do people place TPM Dooku. The only thing we do know about him by the way of a direct comparison is that he is much inferior to AoTC Dooku. As is Qui Gon.

On the other hand, if we consider TPM Dooku to be below TPM Maul as you seem to do, there isn't any reason this isn't a solid fight.

According to Yoda, Qui Gon was the best initiate or apprentice he had trained in 400 years, putting him above Dooku at that stage. While this obviously does not necessarily translate to them as adults, it does indicate that they have loosely comparable potential. They also share similar hype as some of the order's most formidable masters as of TPM, as well as one of the best combatants in the order's history.

As it is, it doesn't seem like a mismatch.

I'm sure Jinn would hold his own and all, but I don't see a possible scenario where he wins.

Qui-Gon gets stomped lmao.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I wanted a glimpse as to where do people place TPM Dooku. The only thing we do know about him by the way of a direct comparison is that he is much inferior to AoTC Dooku. As is Qui Gon.
Much inferior to AotC? No way, during TPM he's consider as Mace's equal and can compete with Yoda. No way, he's much inferior.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
On the other hand, if we consider TPM Dooku to be below TPM Maul as you seem to do, there isn't any reason this isn't a solid fight.
Why should we?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
According to Yoda, Qui Gon was the best initiate or apprentice he had trained in 400 years, putting him above Dooku at that stage.
Prove That is was Yoda who said that.

(Yoda didn't say that.)

The master in question obviously being Yoda.

Reason 1514185 why a quote before a character is made shouldn't apply to said character. ^

Retconned though, fortunately.

Not really. The essential readers companion does say that it could be a reference to Yoda.

What's the source of the quote though? There's 15 core rulebooks.

Not sure how the "Essential Reader's Companion," which almost certainly does not mention an RPG book whatsoever, saying "that it could be a reference to Yoda." has anything to do with the quote though. Honestly, I don't even know what that means.

It is the one for the Star Wars roleplaying game, released in 2000.

The Essential Readers companion addresses the quote in the TPM novel by saying that it could be a reference to Yoda. Obviously, that extends here as well given the similar nature of the quotes, as it is just Qui Gon's master that is the source of this ambiguity.

If it refers to Yoda, it isn't retconned. As it would refer to them as Initiates.

What page?

I genuinely have no clue what you are talking about with this TPM novel quote and the Essential's Reader Companion.

I think we have the liberty to dismiss the quote as being outdated, unless you want to toss aside Dooku's hype in DR. Don't get too bogged down in the technicalities.

Obi-Wan in The Empire Strikes Back refers to Yoda as "the Jedi Master who taught me" and in a post-TPM source, The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi, which is a biography of Obi-Wan's entire life, he says the same thing to Luke IIRC.

Yoda refers to Dooku as his "Padawan" in Attack of the Clones and Dooku refers to Yoda as his former Master many times. Yet we know that Dooku was actually the Padawan of Thame Cerulian; he simply had private classes with Yoda.

Qui-Gon's quote obviously references Yoda, and there's no reason to assume a retcon given how historically characters have referred to Yoda as their Master even though a formal Master-Padawan relationship didn't exist. Yoda has taught every PT Jedi alive at some point in their lives, so I don't see any issue here.

who tf disputing the quote refers to yoda

Sas (clearly) disputed the quote's general existence, not specifically the Yoda part.

I am saying, the companion suggests that it is a possibility that the master in question referred to Yoda, with the quote itself making it obvious that it was Yoda. Which is what I was being questioned on.

Plus the DR quote from Yoda's perspective, does not refer to prowess as an overall lightsaber combatant.

Well, in regards to our discussion, I never once disputed the idea it was referring to Yoda, so I have no clue what you were talking about.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Plus the DR quote from Yoda's perspective, does not refer to prowess as an overall lightsaber combatant.
The point is between Dark Rendezvous and De Agostini, it's clear that the Core Rulebook is outdated.

The Core Rulebook quote shouldn't be treated as "Yoda thinks Qui-Gon is a better swordsman than Dooku."

On that note, I've noticed a lot of quotes around 1999 - 2000 likening Qui-Gon to the best / one of the best duelists in the Order.

I think there's a causality between Dooku / Yoda / and Mace showing their skills in AOTC and those Jinn quotes disappearing ever since.

It's more the fact that material on Jinn became less and less available than anything else. While the converse happened for the trio due to a substantial amount of material on the Clone Wars.

Jinn's best hype( being considered one of the best duelists in history) came from TCSWE, in 2008, so clearly the idea from the start was to have Jinn be among the best.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Jinn's best hype( being considered one of the best duelists in history) came from TCSWE, in 2008, so clearly the idea from the start was to have Jinn be among the best.

I'd say Jinn's best hype is him being the best duelist in the Order according to OOU and Obi-Wan, from 1999.

Jinn being one of the best in history isn't noteworthy, it's a given.

The quote I cited refers to Jinn being the best lightsaber combatant, as an apprentice under Yoda. Not that he is the best lightsaber combatant as a Jedi Master. Which is why I said that it wasn't contradicted. Their growth rates as they would progress through being a proper Jedi or even padawans under Thame and Dooku respectively might not be the same.

I am not aware of any quote that says that he was possibly the best duelist in the Order as a full fledged Jedi Master.

Regardless, the idea of Jinn being among the best still hung around after that, clearly.

I think it's evident that's not the point of the quote, but if you want to go that route the quote is utterly irrelevant.

We have the one from Obi-Wan saying Jinn is the best swordsman he'd ever seen, then the OOU saying Jinn is the best in the Order*.

*But I have no interest in sharing that one, since where's the fun in that?

and clearly not

Why wouldn't Jinn be the best in the order? Nobody else has any good content and he was the one sent to fight a Sith.

Do tell the OOU quote. I too have quotes putting TPM Maul on par with any Jedi in the order.

So, what are your thoughts on this matchup?

TPM Maul is stated to be > Yoda in sword skill since 2005 by OOU, tbh.

https://imgur.com/a/UN4F7

Maul > all TPM Jedi

Originally posted by ILS
https://imgur.com/a/UN4F7

Maul > all TPM Jedi
Nig don't be sharing my quotes

Krayt sux

Don't reveal source so they can't do anything with it tbh

Let's keep Maul > Yoda under raps for now tbh

Just how many quotes actually do put TPM Maul above Yoda?

Too many, and not enough.

Any reason you aren't sharing them right now?

Same reason the US government doesn't tell the truth about 9/11.

The world isn't ready for it.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Any reason you aren't sharing them right now?
Who cares, anyway? They are either out-dated or retconed.

I know that quote, it was TPM novel. Anyway, you have to prove, clearly, that it was Yoda. And if you want to argue that it was Yoda indeed, then we may argue, that he was talking about, lets say, Ataru practicioners. Which, may be ineed a truth TBH, since Jinn could be best Ataru practicioner that Yoda had train until TPM.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Same reason the US government doesn't tell the truth about 9/11.

The world isn't ready for it. my n!gga

Originally posted by McP
I know that quote, it was TPM novel. Anyway, you have to prove, clearly, that it was Yoda. And if you want to argue that it was Yoda indeed, then we may argue, that he was talking about, lets say, Ataru practicioners. Which, may be ineed a truth TBH, since Jinn could be best Ataru practicioner that Yoda had train until TPM. Since when does "lightsaber duelist" mean "Ataru user"?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Same reason the US government doesn't tell the truth about 9/11.

The world isn't ready for it.

Also because Maul is heavily restricted by Sidious, as fodder material to the latter.

I mean, as much as I want Qui Gon and Maul as of TPM to be raised, such a notion isn't exactly credible.

I never said that. My asumption was, that perhaps Yoda though Jinn Ataru during thei sessions, as it was a form prefered by both of them. And it would be logical, otherwise either it wasn't Yoda who said that, quote is out-dated or retcoened. Anyway, it's a pointless discussion since many sources stated TPM Dooku to be superior to Jinn.

Perhaps Dooku can simply exploit his intimate knowledge of Jinn's ataru and pinpoint his weaknesses, being his master and all.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I mean, as much as I want Qui Gon and Maul as of TPM to be raised, to scale TPM Kenobi from them, such a notion isn't exactly credible. just say it

Why exactly did I need to say it?

Kiadi Mundi is > Qui Gon Jinn. The idea that TPM Obi Wan had some parity means that Fisto is > Qui Gon. Shaak ti and Plo are also valid contenders, neither of whom have the glaring weakness of his all-attack no-defence fighting form (a reason for his loss against Maul). Dooku is the "finest student" Yoda ever had, strongest too, which puts him above jinn.

Trash accolades are trash accolades. The mere interpretation of the author writing said accolades at the time. Not the product of content aggregation groups pushing a unanimously agreed power chart. They are less objective than in universe statements the majority of the time.

Dooku slaps him down with the veiny might of his Makashi