Monarch vs. Jiren

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backup
Monarch (from Countdown to Final Crisis):

https://imgur.com/a/I5Hn4

vs.

Jiren (from Dragon Ball Super):

https://imgur.com/a/BxMNb


Who wins this figh?

SSJGGogeta
Uh, Jiren lol-stomps

carver9
Jiren kills him, with ease.

Damborgson
Jiren easily, but he better be ready for the resulting explosion.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

SSJGGogeta
Meaning that even suppressed Jiren could casually block it with his index finger.

cdtm
Originally posted by backup
Monarch (from Countdown to Final Crisis):

https://imgur.com/a/I5Hn4

vs.

Jiren (from Dragon Ball Super):

https://imgur.com/a/BxMNb


Who wins this figh?

Monarch transmutes Jiren into salt.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by cdtm
Monarch transmutes Jiren into salt. Why would he transmute Jiren into cdtm?

RealityWarper
Draw.

Jiren destroys Monarch's suit ang get teleported at the end of times.

Galan007
thumb up

Damborgson

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Damborgson
Multiple punches from goku and beerus that would have eventually destroyed the universe aren't equal to instant universal obliteration though.

He'd get immediately thrown through time and space.

Three punches from n00b SSJG Goku, colliding with equal power, is universe busting. That's 6 punches. So with 6 punches, n00b SSJG Goku could universe bust.

We know from Whiss that SSJB is a 10X boost onto SSJG, at least. Meaning that SSJB could bust more than a universe, with a single punch.

SSJB KKx10 = SSJB x10, as the name implies. Meaning that SSJB KK x10 could bust dozens of universes with a punch. Even assuming that the force couldn't bust that many universes, depending on space away from each other, etc, we can still say that the force of one punch from SSJB KKx10 is dozens of times greater than universe busting. That's not even taking into account the massive power boosts from training Goku has received from then to now.

Jiren was able to deflect SSJB KKx10 Goku's strongest attack, which combined power from everyone present at the TOP, with a glare. While suppressed.

Jiren, with a fraction of his power, is above even multi-universe busting powers, casually.

He could quite literally kill Monarch with a glare.

TethAdamTheRock
Monarch is a Universe-Buster
Jiren is a casual Universe-Buster

Jiren no sells him.

TheBadguy
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Why would he transmute Jiren into cdtm?

almost choked on my water at that sig

i thought it was going to be some deep quote from MLK or some shit

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
Multiple punches from goku and beerus that would have eventually destroyed the universe aren't equal to instant universal obliteration though.

He'd get immediately thrown through time and space. thumb up

There's also the fact that the shockwaves Goku and Beerus released exponentially AMPLIFIED in power, the further outward they spread:
http://i.imgur.com/w21lxksm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NGyoplTm.jpg

...Basically like a cosmic/high-end Butterfly Effect. A butterfly flaps its wings along the California coast, and it causes a tsunami in Japan.

That's why the inhabitants of earth were only knocked off their feet by the shockwaves, and the earth itself(as well as the entire solar system for that matter) were perfectly fine...while distant planets in the universe were atomized.


Moreover, it was explicitly stated that those same energies would ultimately destroy Goku and Beerus as well(so it's not like they were immune to the universal destruction the shockwaves could have caused):
http://i.imgur.com/PCXzh4Cm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ktRWDCRm.jpg


...Some people tend to forget those facts when they label SSG Goku as a 'universe-buster' or w/e. /shrug



Either way, those shockwaves were a sharp contrast to what happened when Monarch detonated.

MrMind
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock

Jiren is a casual Universe-Buster

Jiren no sells him.

let's see some evidence

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by MrMind
let's see some evidence

The evidence would be that SSJG Goku and his attacks are blocked by a single finger from Jiren.

bbrem123
Didn't Goku take on Universe+ destroying power at the end of his fight with Beerus. Right before he was defeated.

carver9
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The evidence would be that SSJG Goku and his attacks are blocked by a single finger from Jiren.

Yep.

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The issue is that the shockwaves aren't the most impressive part of the fight. The part that cements SSJG Goku as a universal power is when he and Beerus are pushing back and forth the super-dense energy ball capable of annihilating Universe 7, (meaning the entire macrocosm), without shockwaves, just pure destruction. Goku then powers up and stalemates the Beerus that easily nullified said energy ball. But that's not what you(or anyone else) said in your first post, wherein you implied that "Goku's fists" = Monarch's detonation. On their own, SSG Goku's fists =/= universe-busters. ermm

The only power we saw in that battle which could have destroyed the universe in one fell swoop was the 'super-dense' energy ball that was inadvertently created when their respective blasts merged... Which was composed of the vast majority of SSG Goku's energy, in addition to an EQUAL amount of energy from Beerus himself. IOW, Goku certainly didn't whip that up on his own. Moreover, it was stated that if that blast detonated prematurely, it would kill everyone(inc. Goku and Beerus.) So yeah.

srug

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
But that's not what you(or anyone else) said in your first post, wherein you implied that "Goku's fists" = Monarch's detonation. On their own, SSG Goku's fists =/= universe-busters. ermm

The only power we saw in that battle which could have destroyed the universe in one fell swoop was the 'super-dense' energy ball that was inadvertently created when their respective blasts merged... Which was composed of the vast majority of SSG Goku's energy, in addition to an EQUAL amount of energy from Beerus himself. IOW, Goku certainly didn't whip that up on his own. Moreover, it was stated that if that blast detonated prematurely, it would kill everyone(inc. Goku and Beerus.) So yeah.

srug

The statement that it would've killed everyone is clearly hyperbole, lol. Whiss or Beerus(who was arguably using less power on SSJG Goku than Final form Frieza did on Vegeta) could've easily tanked it in their sleep.

Btw though, destroying the universe in 3 punches is still near-universe busting potential. Even lowballing him, Jiren is hundreds, possibly thousands, of times stronger than that- being able to block said punches from a version of the form which was vastly more powerful, with just his index finger.

*edit: Also, who made that statement, about the shockwaves killing Beerus and Goku?

Galan007
Elder Kai.

No reason at all to suspect that he was hyperbole'ing about the eventual universal destruction killing everyone. As mentioned, the shockwaves AMPLIFIED in power the further outward they spread.

IOW, the energy Goku and Beerus actually released at ground zero wasn't even remotely sufficient to 'universe-bust', lol. Heck, said energy wasn't even enough to damage the earth or moon on its own... The shockwaves only became that powerful because they exponentially AMPLIFIED in power as they spread outward.

Again, it was basically a high-end iteration of the butterfly effect, wherein Goku and Beerus' punches = the butterfly.

Galan007
*And btw, even Whis stated that if the 'super-dense energy ball' Goku and Beerus inadvertently created were to detonate prematurely, not even Beerus would be able to survive the subsequent universal destruction is caused... Which corroborates Elder Kai's statement to that effect.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Elder Kai.

No reason at all to suspect that he was hyperbole'ing about the eventual universal destruction killing everyone. As mentioned, the shockwaves AMPLIFIED in power the further outward they spread.

IOW, the energy Goku and Beerus actually released at ground zero wasn't even remotely sufficient to 'universe-bust', lol. Heck, said energy wasn't even enough to damage the earth or moon on its own... The shockwaves only became that powerful because they exponentially AMPLIFIED in power as they spread outward.

Again, it was basically a high-end iteration of the butterfly effect, wherein Goku and Beerus' punches = the butterfly.

Ah, okay. Tbh, and I think I've said this before, I totally skipped the recap part of the DBS anime lol.

Anyway's, I have to disagree with that thing about the shockwaves. IMO that was just Toriyama's way of conveniently having Goku attain universe level power without destroying Earth, lol. I wouldn't say that diminishes the universe level power aspect of the feat, one bit. Just like Superboy Prime punching through dimensions, even though it took him countless tries.

I honestly think your butterfly analogy is pretty far-fetched, considering it's based on a myth, and has nothing to do with the series lol.

Regardless, the point is that n00b SSJG Goku operates on, or near, universe busting levels- and Jiren can casually no-sell attacks hundreds, if not thousands of times stronger than those that n00b SSJG Goku can produce.

cdtm
Yep, it's all wonky Dragon Ball physics.

Superboy Prime would probably have one shot the multiverse from the ripple effect.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
But that's not what you(or anyone else) said in your first post, wherein you implied that "Goku's fists" = Monarch's detonation. On their own, SSG Goku's fists =/= universe-busters. ermm

The only power we saw in that battle which could have destroyed the universe in one fell swoop was the 'super-dense' energy ball that was inadvertently created when their respective blasts merged... Which was composed of the vast majority of SSG Goku's energy, in addition to an EQUAL amount of energy from Beerus himself. IOW, Goku certainly didn't whip that up on his own. Moreover, it was stated that if that blast detonated prematurely, it would kill everyone(inc. Goku and Beerus.) So yeah.

srug

There were actually 2 energy balls created in that fight that could have destroyed the universe. One Beerus nullified and the other Goku. (The final blast of the battle that put Goku down. Which was said to be more powerful than the first energy ball by the Elder Kai.)

So in that fight both Goku and Beerus display the ability to nullify universe destroying energy. (Correct me if Im wrong though.)

cdtm
Originally posted by bbrem123
There were actually 2 energy balls created in that fight that could have destroyed the universe. One Beerus nullified and the other Goku. (The final blast of the battle that put Goku down. Which was said to be more powerful than the first energy ball by the Elder Kai.)

So in that fight both Goku and Beerus display the ability to nullify universe destroying energy. (Correct me if Im wrong though.)

Ok, you're wrong.

Happy to help. smile

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

cdtm
That's impressive, but he's also facing someone who tanked a being who casually tore down the Source Wall, one of the most enduring and all encompassing barriers in the DCU.

Guardian Amped prime doing that is easily on the universal tier, if not multiversal (Considering we're talking about a central creation relic that contains blueprints for everything..)

Prof. T.C McAbe
Monarch would win. I doubt Jiren could breach his armor before he gets overpowered. IF and that's a big if, he does the trick it will kill him. Also I would rather believe that Jiren ist capable to breach the Armor like GL Batman did, on a spot and not enough to make Monarch explode. Which means the energy that would leak would be onedirectional and kill Jiren in the process.

RealityWarper
DRAW !

bbrem123
Originally posted by cdtm
Ok, you're wrong.

Happy to help. smile English dubbed at leaast has the elder Kai make a statement about this final energy ball as well as Goku saying it is even larger than the last one. Pretty sure it is suppose to be a larger version of the previous universe destroying one.

bbrem123
Where was the correction!

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
HOWEVER, when the ball detonates, Beerus explicitly powers up, and erases all of the energy in the ball, (meaning he erased a true universal explosion). He claims that he required 100% of his power, but as we know, this was in order to cause a rise in Goku, (which happened). Goku proceeds to stalemate this powered up Beerus, and both note that each other's punches are vastly more powerful than they were 5 minutes ago.

Regardless of what you think of Elder Kai's statements, it is impossible to deny that Beerus instantly erased/nullified the super dense energy ball capable of universal annihilation, and Goku stalemated him after powering up further. Is it not possible/probable, iyo, that Beerus really used 100% of his power in the split-second it took him to nullify the universe-busting energies of the super-dense energy ball, and then proceeded to 'stalemate' SSG Goku in h2h using a much lower percentage of his power..? Given Whis' statements, that is certainly how I interpreted it. /shrug

But even IF we assume Beerus used the same amount of power in each instance, I fail to see how that makes Goku a universal power by proxy..? Beerus is clearly using a special technique to nullify the energy, and I don't think that translates over equally in a pure melee/brawl... /shrug

Originally posted by bbrem123
English dubbed at leaast has the elder Kai make a statement about this final energy ball as well as Goku saying it is even larger than the last one. Pretty sure it is suppose to be a larger version of the previous universe destroying one. Nothing like that was stated in the Japanese dub... Which makes a heck of a lot more sense, considering that it was a BASE-level Goku who dispersed Beerus' final attack with a punch -- and base Goku is obviously NOT a universal power.

...Aside from the fact that said attack didn't cause any collateral damage at all when Goku detonated it, lol.

SSJGGogeta
I don't see why you guys are arguing so intently that SSJG Goku is or isn't a universe buster. Even using the lowest possible approximation for him, it would make him a 1/6th universe buster with his punches. SSJB is a 10X boost to SSJG, Galan has outright stated that before, referring to when Whiss made such a statement.

This, therefor, puts SSJB Goku well over universe level, when he first showed up as n00b SSJB Goku against Golden Frieza. Keep in mind that he powered up dozens of times over from that point until the TOP, and even with KKx10 as a SSJB, his strongest attack was utterly insignificant, to the point where a Jiren using demonstrably around 1% of his full power, if not even less, was able to LITERALLY shrug it off with a look in Goku's direction.

Meaning that even if SSJG Goku isn't universe level, and is indeed 1/6th universe level, the power tiers go like this:

Jiren full power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jiren suppressed to around 1% power >>>>>>> SSJB KKx10 Goku >>>>>>>>SSJB TOP Goku >>> Mastered Goku Black saga SSJB Goku >>> n00b SSJB Goku > universe level ~ Monarch > n00b SSJG Goku

Even assuming Monarch > n00b SSJG Goku, he'd still have to be literally thousands of times stronger to even CONTEND with Jiren, lmao.

Galan007
The only reason I'm discussing SSG Goku is because a few people originally brought him up in this thread, and implied that he was a universe-buster on his own. That simply isn't the case.


And stop using SSG Goku's punches as a reference for his 'universal powa!!!'... That is flagrantly fallacious. It was explicitly stated that the shockwaves Goku and Beerus generated "AMPLIFIED" in power the further outward they spread from the source.

The shockwaves at 'ground zero'(ie BEFORE said waves spread outward and "AMPLIFIED" in strength) were only powerful enough to knock some of the earth's inhabitants off their feet. The humans themselves were otherwise fine, the earth was fine, the moon was fine, the sun was fine, everything in the solar system was fine, etc. etc. etc.

So again, the energy Goku and Beerus personally released at the point of impact wasn't even remotely close to universal... Said energy only BECAME that powerful, because its destructive power progressively "AMPLIFIED" as it spread outward:
http://i.imgur.com/w21lxksm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NGyoplTm.jpg


As mentioned, this literally defines The Butterfly Effect. Pretending otherwise is just silly...

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
The only reason I'm discussing SSG Goku is because a few people originally brought him up in this thread, and implied that he was a universe-buster on his own. That simply isn't the case.


And stop using SSG Goku's punches as a reference for his 'universal powa!!!'... That is flagrantly fallacious. It was explicitly stated that the shockwaves Goku and Beerus generated "AMPLIFIED" in power the further outward they spread from the source.

The shockwaves at 'ground zero'(ie BEFORE said waves spread outward and "AMPLIFIED" in strength) were only powerful enough to knock some of the earth's inhabitants off their feet. The humans themselves were otherwise fine, the earth was fine, the moon was fine, the sun was fine, everything in the solar system was fine, etc. etc. etc.

So again, the energy Goku and Beerus personally released at the point of impact wasn't even remotely close to universal... Said energy only BECAME that powerful, because its destructive power progressively "AMPLIFIED" as it spread outward:
http://i.imgur.com/w21lxksm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NGyoplTm.jpg


As mentioned, this literally defines The Butterfly Effect. Pretending otherwise is just silly...

I've already pointed out how, and why that is a stupid argument.

1. The butterfly effect was conjured by chaos theory, to describe why things happen. It's totally frivolous and unfounded in logic, lol. Using it to explain what is happening in a fictional series is like using an NWA cd to describe how to cook lasagna. Totally irrelevant here.

2. That's not the only instance of universe busting strength shown in that fight. Even assuming SSJG Goku is only half of a universe buster with his ki blasts, that still puts SSJB Goku at 5x a universe buster, making my case even stronger.

3. The implication from Toriyama was clear, and the shockwaves were used as a way to keep Earth intact while putting SSJG Goku at universe level. Nothing more, nothing less. You're literally arguing against the author's intent, which has been stated countless times throughout DBS so far.

4. You're the last person I would've expected to make the collateral damage argument against DB. I guess it only matters when it's convenient for you, right?

5. You certainly like going off topic lately. The shockwaves aren't even Goku's most impressive feat in the fight. Focus on the fact that Jiren is casually thousands of times over a universe buster, and he's being pitted against Monarch who is barely at the level of universal power.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. The butterfly effect was conjured by chaos theory, to describe why things happen. It's totally frivolous and unfounded in logic, lol. Using it to explain what is happening in a fictional series is like using an NWA cd to describe how to cook lasagna. Totally irrelevant here. ...But clearly this "fictional series" is using the same basic methodology as the Butterfly Effect to explain the 'physics' behind the shockwaves they generated.

You just don't want to admit this, because you're desperately trying to make SSG Goku's punches something they're not.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. That's not the only instance of universe busting strength shown in that fight. Even assuming SSJG Goku is only half of a universe buster with his ki blasts, that still puts SSJB Goku at 5x a universe buster, making my case even stronger. You're moving goalposts.

I couldn't care less about SSB Goku. I am exclusively discussing SSG Goku's punches right now, because you have continuously used them to try and 'prove' why he's supposedly a universal power by himself... Doesn't work.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
3. The implication from Toriyama was clear, and the shockwaves were used as a way to keep Earth intact while putting SSJG Goku at universe level. Nothing more, nothing less. You're literally arguing against the author's intent, which has been stated countless times throughout DBS so far. Except it was explicitly stated that the shockwaves AMPLIFIED IN DESTRUCTIVE POWER the further OUTWARD they spread from the origin point. That's why the earth itself(and its inhabitants) were mostly unaffected by the shockwaves, yet distant planets in the universe were atomized.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
4. You're the last person I would've expected to make the collateral damage argument against DB. I guess it only matters when it's convenient for you, right? In an instance where it was explicitly stated that the collateral damage AMPLIFIED IN DESTRUCTIVE POWER the further OUTWARD the shockwaves spread? Yes, I DO think it is relevant to point out "the why" here.

Whether you like it or not, explicitly stated power-amplification DOES matter, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. You certainly like going off topic lately. The shockwaves aren't even Goku's most impressive feat in the fight. Focus on the fact that Jiren is casually thousands of times over a universe buster, and he's being pitted against Monarch who is barely at the level of universal power. Concession accepted. smile

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
...But clearly this "fictional series" is using the same basic methodology as the Butterfly Effect to explain the 'physics' behind the shockwaves they generated.

You just don't want to admit this, because you're desperately trying to make SSG Goku's punches something they're not.

You're moving goalposts.

I couldn't care less about SSB Goku. I am exclusively discussing SSG Goku's punches right now, because you have continuously used them to try and 'prove' why he's supposedly a universal power by himself... Doesn't work.

Except it was explicitly stated that the shockwaves AMPLIFIED IN DESTRUCTIVE POWER the further OUTWARD they spread from the origin point. That's why the earth itself(and its inhabitants) were mostly unaffected by the shockwaves, yet distant planets in the universe were atomized.

In an instance where it was explicitly stated that the collateral damage AMPLIFIED IN DESTRUCTIVE POWER the further OUTWARD the shockwaves spread? Yes, I DO think it is relevant to point out "the why" here.

Whether you like it or not, explicitly stated power-amplification DOES matter, lol.

Concession accepted. smile

Copy and paste #5 of my previous post. Again, you're focusing on the punches when Goku can generate a universe busting ball at SSJG by putting in equal power to Beerus, meaning he's at least half a universe buster. I don't give a shit about your idiotic faux-logic pandering to people who don't understand actual logic.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Copy and paste #5 of my previous post. Again, you're focusing on the punches when Goku can generate a universe busting ball at SSJG by putting in equal power to Beerus, meaning he's at least half a universe buster. I don't give a shit about your idiotic faux-logic pandering to people who don't understand actual logic. Concession accepted. smile


The myth: SSG Goku's punches are universe-busters.
Conclusion: Busted.

thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
Concession accepted. smile

No way, never, no!

What were we arguing about again?

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing like that was stated in the Japanese dub... Which makes a heck of a lot more sense, considering that it was a BASE-level Goku who dispersed Beerus' final attack with a punch -- and base Goku is obviously NOT a universal power.

...Aside from the fact that said attack didn't cause any collateral damage at all when Goku detonated it, lol.

It is pretty obvious though that the orb was created in the same type of clash as the previous orb...

We even have Beerus ask if this is Goku's limit. Meaning he was pushed to the max of his god power. (Far beyond what he was in the previous clash) He was struggle the whole time in SSJ form as well. It was not until the very end when Beerus was mocking him did he punch it out in base. (Was the SSJ form even doing anything either since she was using god ki?...His "punch" dispersed the orb to cause to no destruction. Even Beerus was shock that he did this.

One last note: The Elder Kai states in the subbed version that the only approach to stopping this orb was to make it disappear. Which is what Goku did and why there was no collateral damage. (It was not detonated like you stated above)

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
It is pretty obvious though that the orb was created in the same type of clash as the previous orb... The same? Eh, not in the slightest.

Goku was SSG the first time. In the final clash he had reverted to SSJ... and then further dropped to base toward to end of the struggle(when he detonated the blast.)

SSG >>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ >>>> base.

Originally posted by bbrem123
We even have Beerus ask if this is Goku's limit. Meaning he was pushed to the max of his god power. (Far beyond what he was in the previous clash) Goku was 'pushed to the limit' of power that he had available at the time... Which was just regular ol' SSJ(and base.) That's all.

You're acting like his SSJ =/> SSG. Please don't.

Originally posted by bbrem123
His "punch" dispersed the orb to cause to no destruction. Even Beerus was shock that he did this. You're adding a lot of your own opinion to that scene.

Beerus was "shocked" that Goku was able to block the attack in a weakened state and without God ki(which he mentioned a little earlier in their battle.) That's all.

Originally posted by bbrem123
One last note: The Elder Kai states in the subbed version that the only approach to stopping this orb was to make it disappear. Which is what Goku did and why there was no collateral damage. (It was not detonated like you stated above) Not sure what you're talking about..? I just checked the English and Japanese versions, and Elder Kai said no such thing in either one. confused


And the energy ball was indeed "dispersed"... It was dispersed because Goku detonated it, like I said. Hence this massive explosion:

https://i.imgur.com/PDPFkBt.gif


*You'll also note that Beerus was blocking/shielding himself from the detonation as well:
http://i.imgur.com/PS6ZWPEm.jpg

If Goku's punch truly "dispersed it to cause no destruction" like you said, then why on earth was there a huge explosion at all? Why on earth was Beerus shielding himself from it? As mentioned, there was NO indication that base Goku's punch was really some sort of esoteric technique that allowed him to transmute the energy of that attack into some other type of non-destructive force... He simply dug deep and popped the metaphorical balloon that Beerus threw at him. That's all.


In summary: the 'super-dense energy ball'(generated by SSG Goku + Beerus) was the ONLY energy attack in their battle that could have destroyed the universe in one fell swoop. I'm not saying the final attack Beerus used against SSJ/base Goku wasn't powerful(it definitely was) -- I'm just saying that it wasn't even remotely comparable to the 'SDEB'... Which is completely true.

thumb up

bbrem123
These comments happen right after episode 14's midway break.

English Dub
Supreme Kai - "Their blasts merged into another energy orb, but this one is even bigger."
Elder Kai - "I'm done making guesses, we both know what that is capable of...I'll leave it at that.

Not 100% sure on the subbed. But Elder Kai in the same scene says something around the orb can only be stopped by being dispersed. (I will have to look back and find take some screenshots)

Beerus even confirms that Goku can now access the power of SSG in his normal form, this was confirmed by Beerus mid fight. (This concept was lost/inconsistent in future episode...but for this fight it holds.)

carver9
Lol... Goku punch did disperse Beerus blast. WTF.

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
These comments happen right after episode 14's midway break.

English Dub
Supreme Kai - "Their blasts merged into another energy orb, but this one is even bigger."
Elder Kai - "I'm done making guesses, we both know what that is capable of...I'll leave it at that. And here is the same scene with the canon Japanese translations:
http://i.imgur.com/Yi4VBVOm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QlxoEOPm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/orm3RNlm.jpg

...Sharp contrast to the English dub, eh?



And for a point of reference, here is how Elder Kai described the SDEB:
http://i.imgur.com/BQ1AQzVm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7DZNNFNm.jpg

Whis also confirmed the SDEB's power:
http://i.imgur.com/kg31LJdm.jpg

*If you aren't already aware, "world" = "universe" when used in this context.


So yeah, if you don't want to acknowledge the glaring difference between these respective attacks, that's on you. I, for one, see no reason to wank SSG Goku by trying to baselessly hyper-inflate some of the feats he preformed... He honestly doesn't need it(dude is haxx AF on his own.)

srug

Originally posted by bbrem123
Not 100% sure on the subbed. But Elder Kai in the same scene says something around the orb can only be stopped by being dispersed. (I will have to look back and find take some screenshots) You must be confused, because that wasn't stated in the episode. I checked and double-checked.

You're probably thinking of the SDEB scene.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Beerus even confirms that Goku can now access the power of SSG in his normal form, this was confirmed by Beerus mid fight. (This concept was lost/inconsistent in future episode...but for this fight it holds.) So are we acting like that hasn't been retconned to hell and back(in both the anime and manga), and as such, was NEVER actually the case at all..? Lol, okay.

Regardless, Goku was still NOWHERE NEAR his full power when he was trying to block Beerus' final attack. He was immensely depleted due to their battle beforehand, and could barely even maintain his SSJ form. He dug deep in that final moment and was able to 'pop'(ie. detonate) Beerus' attack...cuz Saiyan haxx...but he himself was all but powerless at the time.


However, none of this changes the fact that the final blast was NEVER implied to have remotely close to universe-busting potential, nor was it implied to equal the SDEB in any way/shape/form. That's all.

bbrem123
I only bring this topic up because of the english dub (Finally started watching it!). Which did state that the attack was superior to the former energy ball.

Saying Goku was no where near his full power is an assumption imo. We saw Goku almost die...and come back stronger. The whole fight was to show how strong the SSG power was. I saw that final struggle as a height of the SSG power at that time. (English dub did as well) I cant understand why the english dub would miss translate the whole scene like that...But hey agree to disagree.

I mean hell the collision with the universal white flash was nearly identical to lol...Im not saying you are wrong, it is just that I can just see both sides of this argument is all.

And the Beerus statement valid at the time of this fight...But yea this whole God Ki in normal forms is a mess...Im not even sure why I brought up this can of worms ha.

How did this event go down in the manga?

Galan007
Originally posted by bbrem123
I only bring this topic up because of the english dub (Finally started watching it!). I understand, but again: the canon Japanese version said nothing of the sort. The English dub is just embellishing.

As mentioned: the SDEB is the *only* energy attack from their fight that was capable of universe-busting. There is absolutely NO canon evidence that alludes to Beerus' final blast possessing =/> power... Quite the contrary, in fact.

Originally posted by bbrem123
How did this event go down in the manga? The manga's rendition was completely different than the anime:
https://i.imgur.com/2Ho08Mv.png
https://i.imgur.com/7txY0OP.png
https://i.imgur.com/bI0DS4D.png
https://i.imgur.com/vhvFaAY.png
https://i.imgur.com/No6k5dU.png
https://i.imgur.com/XyJ1xcI.png
https://i.imgur.com/FugBbes.png
https://i.imgur.com/s4Pq9gP.png
https://i.imgur.com/QegO7zi.png

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Concession accepted. smile


The myth: SSG Goku's punches are universe-busters.
Conclusion: Busted.

thumb up

No one said that SSJG Goku could bust the universe in a single punch. He can, however, with six. You've busted nothing, other than a nut, wanking your own nonsensical ego.

Galan007
So without Beerus there to match SSG Goku's punches(and cause shockwaves that exponentially AMPLIFY in power), your contention is that SSG Goku alone can still cause universe-busting shockwaves with SIX of his own punches, lol?

Obviously you cannot prove that with any sort of tangible evidence, otherwise you already would have. Instead you just choose to nonsensically rant and ignore every shred of ACTUAL evidence that utterly DESTROYS your 'logic'.

Again, that myth has been busted thoroughly -- your made-up BS doesn't change that, lol... That said, this will be my last post to you on this topic, as I am no longer interested in feeding your trolling. You can have the last word if you want(you desperately crave it anyway), but I'm done with you. Have fun! thumb up


However, if anyone ELSE would like to discuss this topic, I'm game. smile





*cue a SSJGGogeta hate-fueled, faux-intellectual rant in 5...4...3...2...*

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
So without Beerus there to match SSG Goku's punches(and cause shockwaves that exponentially AMPLIFY in power), your contention is that SSG Goku alone can still cause universe-busting shockwaves with SIX of his own punches, lol?

Obviously you cannot prove that with any sort of tangible evidence, otherwise you already would have. Instead you just choose to nonsensically rant and ignore every shred of ACTUAL evidence that utterly DESTROYS your 'logic'.

Again, that myth has been busted thoroughly -- your made-up BS doesn't change that, lol... That said, this will be my last post to you on this topic, as I am no longer interested in feeding your trolling. You can have the last word if you want(you desperately crave it anyway), but I'm done with you. Have fun! thumb up


However, if anyone ELSE would like to discuss this topic, I'm game. smile

It's simple mathematics, dude. If the collision of SSJG Goku and Beerus' fists can destroy a universe in three punches, and both fists represent equal force, then 6 of Goku's punches would hold force equivalent to said 3 collisions. Even if Goku can actually bust a universe with a punch, that's not what I'm arguing here, it means he still holds near-universe level power in his punches. That's simple mathematics. 3 x 2 = 6, lol

Regardless, as I've said, that's not even his most impressive feat. He also created a universe busting energy ball with Beerus, both putting equal energy into it. That makes SSJG Goku a 1/2 universe buster, again- based on simple mathematics that even a child could understand, lmao.

Originally posted by Galan007
*cue a SSJGGogeta hate-fueled, faux-intellectual rant in 5...4...3...2...*

Translation = "WAHHHHH, STOP MAKING ME GO ON TOPIC, YOU'RE NOT FAIR!!1!!!1"

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Galan007

*cue a SSJGGogeta hate-fueled, faux-intellectual rant in 5...4...3...2...*

Intellectual isn't even part of his vocabulary...

Mendax
Jiren loses.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Mendax
Jiren loses.

Maybe Jiren as an infant. ToP Jiren lol-stomps Monarch.

Mendax
Jiren would blast or punch Monarch, rip his armor, and release his entire payload of energy. The instant monarch's energy touches Jiren, he gets sent hurling through the timestream.

so in that sense Jiren loses. big grin

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Mendax
Jiren would blast or punch Monarch, rip his armor, and release his entire payload of energy. The instant monarch's energy touches Jiren, he gets sent hurling through the timestream.

so in that sense Jiren loses. big grin

How is that a lose for Jiren? lol, even assuming that could happen if Monarch's armor is broken, it won't happen if Jiren vaporizes Monarch with a single blast, or knocks him out with a neck chop laughing

Either way Jiren remains unharmed lol

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