Can Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt's feats be valid during Beyond Shadows?

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Freedon Nadd
This is a realm of the Force to which Force-sensitives go when they separate their minds from their physical beings.

Wouldn't that mean they didn't really fight Abeloth physically but rather it was a battle of wills?

The.D0minator
Originally posted by The.D0minator
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ILS

Freedon Nadd
So, he kind of left his 'old' body and created another body(plasmatic?), then. Good to know. smile

Once again you were very helpful.

ILS
Here's another way to look at it.

The body is a vessel for the spirit. The spirit lives inside the body. As the body grows, the spirit grows. The spirit gives life to the body and allows it to grow, and in response, the spirit takes the form of the body and grows alongside it.

Unlike raw Force energy, which is just blank and devoid of any intelligence or individuality, the spirit has a personality. This personality develops because a human being lives in the physical world, grows, has new experiences, and so on.

The spirit can only be as great as it's vessel. The spirit of a rancor will never become great or do great things because it only has the potential of a rancor. Ki-Adi-Mundi will never be as great as Mace Windu. Luke Skywalker will never be as great as Abeloth.

What happened with Beyond Shadows is sort of like creating "another body", but not quite. Try thinking about it like water and a glass. The body is the glass, the spirit is the water. Without the glass, the water will just spill everywhere. You can't do anything with the water, you can't add or take away from it. There's nothing unique about it.

What Krayt and Luke did is they filled up their glass of water over the course of their life. When they went Beyond Shadows, they poured the water out of their glass, but instead of spilling everywhere, it maintained it's shape. The water retained it's individual form despite being separated from it's glass. This is because the spirit has a will, an intelligence, that can separate itself from the Force. Luke and Krayt retained their identities.

And the reason they were able to pour their water back into the glass, or place their spirits back in their body, was because they left a small part of themselves, a "vestige" inside their bodies. The maintained a connection, and using that connection they were able to go back. It was also because of that connection that Luke's physical body had a hole in it's chest after he went back to it.

Freedon Nadd
Man, why you had to bring Mundi in this? Thanks again for the explanation.

Freedon Nadd
Btw, what they did in BS is similar to a darksider ghost's stage of existence? Is the BS body similar to a Sith ghost body?

ILS
Good question. Basically yes, with a few caveats.

Freedon Nadd
To be honest, it seems the whole story is more of a metaphor.

ILS
I guess ur right, nvm then

Freedon Nadd
I just don't understand why their feats are valid. I mean, even if they are not the Force itself? Didn't they pass in a dimension when they 'physically', power-wise became one with it? I mean that could explain as to why Abeloth wasn't able of legitly killing them.

ILS
They aren't one with the Force, because if they were, they'd no longer exist. And Abeloth was capable of killing them, and nearly did.

Freedon Nadd
What do you mean? Obi-Wan was clearly one with the Force. He said in ESB:

ILS
Force Ghosts aren't really connected to the Living Force much, if at all compared to a Sith Spirit, who are tethered to it directly in order to stay alive. And Krayt and Luke were obviously different from either in a few important respects.

Anyway, not really seeing your point other than personal incredulity.

Freedon Nadd
I am not incredule. Obi-Wan became one with the Force and still retained his identity. It seems to me that's what they did Beyond Shadows realm.

ILS
If they were just Ghosts, they would be in the Depths of Eternity with all of the dead, like Mara and Jacen. They are living beings who have separated from their bodies in a realm that is comprised of pure Force energy. The same power they were comprised of there is the power that gives their bodies form in the physical world.

It's not rocket science.

Freedon Nadd
Obi-Wan could interact with the living world(touch) so you know.

Zentrex
Obi wan could not interract with the living world.

Force ghosts are just the souls of living things. The force is made of the souls of living things, and the real world is completely separate from that. Some things, midi-chlorians, lightsaber crystals, and certain pieces of technology, can access the realm of the Force and remain in the physical world, thus manipulating the physical world using the energy created by the souls of all living things (The Force)

Now, Obi-Wan did sit on a log, but I don't think he was actually sitting on the log. He no longer had a phyisical presence. The only way he talked to others was by talking to their souls, which exist in the realm of the force. The physical form that we see in the movies is just a representation. He wasn't actually there.

And what Luke and Krayt did is different from being one with the force. To be one with the force is to be one without physicality. Luke and Krayt had their physical forms, they just weren't inside them at that moment.

And ILS. I don't know what you mean about spirits being superior. I don't think any spirit is superior to another. If they're all completely with the Force, then they're about as powerful as anyone can be. They can't manipulate the real world like the The Father, but as far as their connections to the Force goes, they're just as powerful as the Father. Though not as effective.

Freedon Nadd
The Beyond Shadows is not a physical realm?

Zentrex
no.

Freedon Nadd
So they were kind of one with the Force Beyond Shadows realm.

ILS
Spirits clearly have a hierarchy otherwise you wouldn't need two people to defeat Abeloth. That was the entire point of the fight.

Tell me where it's said, going against a mountain of evidence, that the Force Essence isn't a reflection of the user. If you say something braindead Bart will ban you.

Freedon Nadd
Abeloth is an embodiment of the Force?

ILS
No, she isn't. Not that it would matter because apparently all Essences are equal??

Freedon Nadd
How is she not? She consumed both Cosmic Nexuses.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So they were kind of one with the Force Beyond Shadows realm.
no. They were their own spirits, but they had what they were in the physical realm still tethered to them.

Being one with the Force is existing with NOTHING but the Force.

Originally posted by ILS
Spirits clearly have a hierarchy otherwise you wouldn't need two people to defeat Abeloth. That was the entire point of the fight.

Tell me where it's said, going against a mountain of evidence, that the Force Essence isn't a reflection of the user. If you say something braindead Bart will ban you.
If you're talking to me, then I'm going to say that I didn't derive my conclusions from a quote directly, I derived it from implications. How powerful someone is with the force is based on how well they an access the Force. If one is ONE with the force, they have unhindered access to the Force, meaning that they are as connected to the Force as it's possible to be. So no force user should be more powerful than the other as a force ghost.

And Luke and Krayt weren't one with the Force when they were taking on Abeloth, they were just ghost versions of how in tune with the Force they are normally.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Abeloth is an embodiment of the Force?
She's a quasi-celestial whose connection to the force has been unrealistically enhanced.

Freedon Nadd
So are the Ones?

Freedon Nadd
Force ghosts can interact with the physical realm, though.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So are the Ones?

Not exactly. The Father was a celestial who transcended his nature and became a "force-wielder" who literally represents the Force. He's more than just one with the Force, the Force is represented in the physical world by him. He's the Force manifested into a person.
And his children are kind of like that, in that they represent the Force and are "force-wielders", but they weren't all that powerful, at least until they had their abilities enhanced through the font of power and the pool of knowledge.
Abeloth is completely different. She is not a force-wielder, and does not represent the Force. She is the bringer of Chaos and is against both the dark and light sides of the Force.



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Force ghosts can interact with the physical realm, though.
No, no they can't.

Freedon Nadd
This Force was on dying.



You do realize that the Ones are just a part of an ancient species of Force wielders? They are/were the last of their species. And it was stated that the Son and the Daughter had their abilities because they drank from the two nexuses whereas the Father(being in Balance) drank from both.




She is the corrupting aspect of the Force.
Tbh, Chaos is part of darkness. So she is kind of the Dark Side incarnate.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Zentrex
No, no they can't.

Obi-Wan in ANH(?)

Zentrex
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
This Force was on dying.

what?



No. Where are you getting this information? The Killiks said that the Force Wielders are what the Celestials become. The Fathe is confirmed to be the most powerful Force user in history, meaning there never were any other Force-wielders. And the Father never used the nexuses.

I think. Did he? I don't think he did. If he did, can you give me a source which proves it?

As far as I've understood it, the Father was powerful because he was a Force-Wielder, not because he used the nexuses. And it would make no sense either, since he was the source of power that fueled the Son and Daughter. And the Father vanished upon death whereas the Son stayed. So there's obviously a difference between what they are.



She wants to destroy the darkness. And that's irrelevant. What matters is that she's not the same as a ghost.



He sat on a log, but I'm guessing that was just Luke's way of perceiving him. He wasn't really there in the physical realm. I'm basing that off of the idea that Force ghosts can't exist in the physical realm because that would make no sense in the context of the rest of the lore.

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