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MyIz3-FYpXc#t20s

@ 19 seconds

Rey has just ignited her lightsaber as Luke falls back. This time she keeps on going. Who wins?

Luke, probably.

luke force subdues

Luke subdues, but the femi-nazism makes it difficult.

Luke destroys; he was playing with her the whole time and wasn't ever in danger up to and including that moment

Luke TKs her.

Why is this even a question? Luke wins. There's no chance. Luke projected himself over half the galaxy, and lived until he decided to give himself to the Force. Rey, if she'd tried to create a force bond with Kylo over that distance, would have died! She has no chance against a god of the Force like Luke Skywalker.

the denial

Originally posted by MythLord
Luke TKs her.

Even the casual TK Luke displayed around the time of RotJ would be more than enough to pwn Rey:
http://i.imgur.com/tz5u3Mum.jpg

The ability to push a few Stormtroopers is not enough to suggest he can pwn Rey, lol.

Luke wins this.

Originally posted by MythLord
The ability to push a few Stormtroopers is not enough to suggest he can pwn Rey, lol. With a TK wave that she would be wholly unprepared to defend against? I beg to differ, lol.

*Keep in mind, I am simply talking about Luke defending against Rey's initial attack(*see the stips of this thread*) with said TK wave, by sending her soaring backward. I'm not saying that the one attack would be enough to defeat her outright(I don't think TLJ Luke would go there right off the bat.)

Originally posted by Galan007
With a TK wave that she would be wholly unprepared to defend against? I beg to differ, lol.
Would she be wholly unprepared for it? By the same token, she could unleash a telekinetic shove or wave that he's unprepared for.

I mean, sure, you can make the very real argument that RotJ Luke is > Kylo and Rey in the Force, but knocking over Stormtroopers isn't a feat I'd mention to prove it.

The premise of this thread is essentially "what if Rey actually attacked Luke with her lightsaber in this scene..?":

https://i.imgur.com/wdsHYzL.jpg


You're not going to convince me that Rey had some sort of esoteric "anti-TK" shield in place there, because there is literally NO reason at all to assume she did.

So yes, a TK wave powerful enough to send multiple Storm Troopers hurling across the room would undoubtedly be enough own/counter Rey in that moment. Honestly not sure why you would think otherwise..?

Originally posted by Galan007
The premise of this thread is essentially "what if Rey actually attacked Luke with her lightsaber in this scene..?":

https://i.imgur.com/wdsHYzL.jpg

You're not going to convince me that Rey had some sort of esoteric "anti-TK" shield in place there, because there is literally NO reason at all to assume she did.
That "esoteric Anti-TK shield" you're referring to is called a Force Barrier, lmfao. It's a common move in Star Wars and every Force user can do it, especially in the heat of combat.
Originally posted by Galan007
So yes, a TK wave powerful enough to send multiple Storm Troopers hurling across the room would undoubtedly be enough own/counter Rey in that moment. Honestly not sure why you would think otherwise..?
It would send her flying back. It would not "own her" given her ability to tank close-range explosions well before even realizing she can use the Force.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
the denial

?

It should be noted that Luke levitates himself when he falls back while holding his hand up, and only relents when Rey herself puts her saber down. I think that makes it clear that Luke was ready to defend himself.

Originally posted by MythLord
That "esoteric Anti-TK shield" you're referring to is called a Force Barrier, lmfao. It's a common move in Star Wars and every Force user can do it, especially in the heat of combat. Oh I know what the ability is called, "lmfao"... But we also aren't discussing Legends at this point -- we're discussing canon.

Anywho, what I would like YOU to prove(instead of just throwing around these faux-insults of yours) is that Rey knew how to use that specific technique at all. I'd also like proof that she was using a shield while she sparred with Luke during the scene in question.

If you can't provide said proof(and I'm positive you can't), then just concede the point and move on. Pretending like Rey can use abilities she likely has no knowledge of, and without proof to suggest she was actually doing so in a particular instance, is ridiculously fallacious... The "just cuz" argument doesn't work for me.

Originally posted by MythLord
It would send her flying back. It would not "own her" given her ability to tank close-range explosions well before even realizing she can use the Force. It would certainly own Rey. Would it take her out of the fight completely? Maybe not, but it would indeed be enough to send her careening into another hut or somesuch.


Why? Because as I said: if Luke TK'd Rey in this moment:
https://i.imgur.com/wdsHYzL.jpg

...She would essentially be defenseless/unguarded, and completely at the TK wave's mercy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh I know what the ability is called, "lmfao"... But we also aren't discussing Legends at this point -- we're discussing canon.
It exists in canon.
Originally posted by Galan007
Anywho, what I would like YOU to prove(instead of just throwing around these faux-insults of yours) is that Rey knew how to use that specific technique at all. I'd also like proof that she was using a shield while she sparred with Luke during the scene in question.

If you can't provide said proof(and I'm positive you can't), then just concede the point and move on. Pretending like Rey can use abilities she likely has no knowledge of, and without proof to suggest she was actually doing so in a particular instance, is ridiculously fallacious... The "just cuz" argument doesn't work for me.
She used the Force to resist both Kylo Ren's and Snoke's attempts to TK her in the past. Sure, her shields were eventually broken(easily so by Snoke, in fact), but the point is she threw them up and thus she does have knowledge of the technique. Besides, this she also didn't exactly have knowledge of either TP or offensive TK use before she used them; most Force powers aren't learned, they come naturally.
Originally posted by Galan007
It would certainly own Rey. Would it take her out of the fight completely? Maybe not, but it would indeed be enough to send her careening into another hut or somesuch.


Why? Because as I said: if Luke TK'd Rey in this moment:
https://i.imgur.com/wdsHYzL.jpg

...She would essentially be defenseless/unguarded, and completely at the TK wave's mercy.
I think we're at a disagreement of what "own" means, I suppose. Just sending her flying back doesn't equate owning to me.

Unless I am missing an example or two, no force user depicted in PT era, or post PT era material, be it legends or canon has repelled a force attack without actively gesturing to counter it. And even if there is an example or two, the vast majority of cases don't have any such thing.

There is no "sphere" of energy or any kind of barrier or a cocoon protecting force users all the time.

Originally posted by MythLord
It exists in canon. Indeed. It is certainly not present around users 'all the time', is what I'm saying. Frankly, I don't think that has ever really been the case, but that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by MythLord
She used the Force to resist both Kylo Ren's and Snoke's attempts to TK her in the past. Sure, her shields were eventually broken(easily so by Snoke, in fact), but the point is she threw them up and thus she does have knowledge of the technique. Besides, this she also didn't exactly have knowledge of either TP or offensive TK use before she used them; most Force powers aren't learned, they come naturally. Those instances are wholly different than Rey manifesting a shield around herself during a battle to block external TK-usage from her opponents. Moreover, attempting to shield herself from Kylo and Snoke does not at all suggest that Rey had external shielding in place when she sparred with Luke.

Seems like you're imposing one heck of a no-limits fallacy here.

Originally posted by MythLord
I think we're at a disagreement of what "own" means, I suppose. Just sending her flying back doesn't equate owning to me. Personally, I think someone can be "owned" by an attack without getting beaten outright by it. Either way, at least you understand what I'm saying now.

Originally posted by Galan007
Those instances are wholly different than Rey manifesting a shield around herself during a battle to block external TK-usage from her opponents.
I mean, they were using TK on her and she still threw up a shield, I'd say that means she can manifest a way to defend herself from an external TK attack.
Originally posted by Galan007
Moreover, attempting to shield herself from Kylo and Snoke does not at all suggest that Rey had external shielding in place when she sparred with Luke.

Seems like you're imposing one heck of a no-limits fallacy here.
I'm not 100% guarenteeing she does have it here, just that she could throw it up.
Originally posted by Galan007
Personally, I think someone can be "owned" by an attack without getting beaten outright by it. Either way, at least you understand what I'm saying now.
Ah, kk. A difference in definition then, I suppose.

Perhaps Rey *might* have the wherewithal to try and shield herself after Luke initially TK'd her... Maybe.

But again: my point is that she was certainly never implied to have a shield up in that particular scene, which would undoubtedly make her vulnerable to a TK wave.

This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Unless I am missing an example or two, no force user depicted *in PT era, or post PT era material,* be it legends or canon has repelled a force attack without actively gesturing to counter it. And even if there is an example or two, the vast majority of cases don't have any such thing.

--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction



--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way.

Oh nice, I did recall there was some kind of passive Force thing, but I couldn't recall the source.

Luke ragdolls. Dumb thread.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction



--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way.

Firstly, I don't know what shield you are talking about here( there are cases of temperature moderation cocoons), so I am just going to assume that you are talking about a sphere of energy that is a full representation of the force user's complete defenses applicable in combat. If not, ignore the rest.

Hence why I specifically mentioned the PT era material. And by post PT era, I meant the dark times, not NJO.

Plus, its obvious the way Karpyshyn treats force based defenses is vastly different to how the PT era material treats it, be it legends or canon, so no, we can't equate the two.

Like I said, you might be able to find an example or two, because I obviously haven't read all the material even in the PT era, and even if I did, I can't really recall every single instance, or event to check if this concept really was used, but yeah, force based defenses work, in the vast majority of the cases, with active gesture based counters, not spheres of energy.

Not really. It's about as far from irrelevant as can be. The vast majority of the PT era material which is Legends adheres to and tries to set the standards for power and force usage the way George Lucas did in his movies. That is, without any overtly extravagant or flamboyant usage of the force, like we see in for example, ToR or ToTJ. The movies( and the TV shows) make it pretty obvious that there aren't "shields" protecting force users all the time. The novelizations, which are legends accounts all but confirm it( ROTS junior novel comes primarily to mind).

In fact, it is as relevant as can be, because not all legends sources are the same or see the SW galaxy in the same way. Even in the PT era material, which is why, in one instance, you have the entire Jedi Council needed to hold up a turbolift. And in the other instance you have padawans holding up capital ships. Both legends sources. However, the PT era Legends material has always been highly consistent in this one thing. Which is why Karpyshyn's view on the matter, who wrote the Bane trilogy similar to how he writes games, and in the same vein as practically most of the material on the Ancient eras with all of their visible flamboyance, does not really extend into the realm of the PT era. Even if you don't agree with this logic, the cases show for themselves.

No one is going to read all that - especially not Sasukedc - but Lesser Force barriers are passively up.

Going to say Rey. She's a force to match Kylo.

To add to the discussion, there is some evidence to suggest passive Force shields do exist in Canon. During a duel between Ventress and Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple, for example:



Dark Disciple, page 190.

Asajj's carelessness results in her being TKed, implying that she left herself open to Vos' telekinesis. This also implies that during the rest of the duel, she is not open to being TKed in this manner. So while it's never outright stated that she has a Force shield in place, the implication is there.

There was also a moment in the Ahsoka novel that could be interpreted as either a TP or TK attack, which is then resisted.



Couple these snippets with a few scenes from The Clone Wars, and it becomes clear that Force users have some means of resisting the Force-based attacks of others, even if it's not quite as potent or as fully explained as it was in Legends.

I still haven't read the TLJ novelization, so I can't comment on whether or not Rey had a Force shield in it. However, I feel it's safe to assume that even if Rey did have a Force shield up, Luke would have no more trouble ripping through it than Snoke did.

I don't exactly agree with your interpretation of those excerpts, but that's neither here nor there. Like you said, passive 'auto-shields' are certainly not an ability that has been extrapolated on very much at all in canon... Legends is another matter entirely, but this isn't a Legends thread.


That said, it was never implied(in the film or novelization) that Rey had any sort of passive shielding in place when she sparred with Luke:



Thus, if Luke were to TK Rey at this moment:
https://i.imgur.com/wdsHYzL.jpg

She would be totally unguarded and completely at his mercy, me thinks.

Originally posted by Galan007
Perhaps Rey *might* have the wherewithal to try and shield herself after Luke initially TK'd her... Maybe.

But again: my point is that she was certainly never implied to have a shield up in that particular scene, which would undoubtedly make her vulnerable to a TK wave.
I can agree to that, I just believe it's possible for her to throw it up.