Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Dooku. Luke is better in sabers by a decent margin, but ROTJ Luke's Force abilities just don't match up to Dooku's at all.

I highly doubt Luke can approach Dooku's 70+ years of skill with a saber in the time between ESB and RotJ.

Unless he pulls off some tier 9 rage-amp stuff he loses.

Originally posted by Kurk
I highly doubt Luke can approach Dooku's 70+ years of skill with a saber in the time between ESB and RotJ.

Unless he pulls off some tier 9 rage-amp stuff he loses. I mean, Luke legitimately contended with and bested Vader in ROTJ, as per the novelization and script, same as ESB, to a lesser extent. If, by ROTJ, Luke was comparable to or equal to Vader, then he's better than Dooku.

I love RotJ Luke, and feel like he's often underrated by people who attemp to write him off as inexperienced, or downplay his victory over Vader by attributing it soley to Vader holding back. That said, I don't picture Luke, Legends or Canon, beating Dooku. He just leaves too many opening that can be exploited (see his battle over the sarlacc pit), and he hasn't shown any real ability to counter Dooku's lightning beyond just trying to strengthen his Force shield.

ROTJ Luke is specifically stated to be equal to ROTJ Vader in the Force and a better swordsman.

That being said, ROTS Dooku imo isn't below them. Same tier Id argue. Luke could win but so could Dooku.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
I love RotJ Luke, and feel like he's often underrated by people who attemp to write him off as inexperienced, or downplay his victory over Vader by attributing it soley to Vader holding back. That said, I don't picture Luke, Legends or Canon, beating Dooku. He just leaves too many opening that can be exploited (see his battle over the sarlacc pit), and he hasn't shown any real ability to counter Dooku's lightning beyond just trying to strengthen his Force shield.

Originally posted by The Merchant
ROTJ Luke is specifically stated to be equal to ROTJ Vader in the Force and a better swordsman.

That being said, ROTS Dooku imo isn't below them. Same tier Id argue. Luke could win but so could Dooku.

I would love to know the source on that!

Luke should win Sabers at least.

going by canon Dooku wipes the floor with Luke; Luke barely survived a stiff moving Vader until he had his tantrum and although thats how Ani beat Tyranus Luke doesn't have a tenth of the onscreen skill that his father had

Originally posted by relentless1
going by canon Dooku wipes the floor with Luke; Luke barely survived a stiff moving Vader until he had his tantrum and although thats how Ani beat Tyranus Luke doesn't have a tenth of the onscreen skill that his father had


Barely? At no point did Vader have the edge in their ROTJ Saber fight.

Luke was >/= Vader in Sabers. Which is a level solidly above Rebels Ahsoka/Maul. So power scaling works for Luke IMO.

But if we add TK and Lightning then I cant say for sure. That might give the edge to Dooku in an all out.

Originally posted by relentless1
going by canon Dooku wipes the floor with Luke; Luke barely survived a stiff moving Vader until he had his tantrum and although thats how Ani beat Tyranus Luke doesn't have a tenth of the onscreen skill that his father had

If we are going by canon, Luke has a much greater chance against Dooku. Vader in the new Disney canon is showing to be more powerful than he was in legends.

The only reason why Vader is robotic and stiff is because rotj was made in 1983.... In new canon such as the Vader comics, Rogue One, and rebels - it's clearily no longer an issue.

^ Yes and in the Ahsoka fight.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
If we are going by canon, Luke has a much greater chance against Dooku. Vader in the new Disney canon is showing to be more powerful than he was in legends.

The only reason why Vader is robotic and stiff is because rotj was made in 1983.... In new canon such as the Vader comics, Rogue One, and rebels - it's clearily no longer an issue. Canon Vader doesn't seem to be any stronger than Legends Vader to me.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Barely? At no point did Vader have the edge in their ROTJ Saber fight.

Luke was >/= Vader in Sabers. Which is a level solidly above Rebels Ahsoka/Maul. So power scaling works for Luke IMO.

But if we add TK and Lightning then I cant say for sure. That might give the edge to Dooku in an all out.

Vader was conflicted against Luke af.

Wasn't it stated somewhere that Luke was blocking Sidious's lightning at first?

If he can block ROTJ Sidious's lightning, he can def. block Dookus. And much, much easier.

Sidious wasn't trying to kill Luke.

Per the novelization, Luke was able to Force-deflect Palpatine's initial salvo of FL of a very brief moment before he was overpowered by it:

But that salvo was only intended to injure/weaken/torture Luke -- it was not meant to kill him, nor was it Palpatine's most powerful/intense application of the ability.


Only the final(and most powerful) salvo of FL was truly meant to *kill* Luke, and it absolutely *would* have if Vader hadn't intervened:




That said, I certainly wouldn't say that Luke being able to deflect one of Palpatine's weaker salvos of FL for a scant moment equates to him being able to outright pwn Dooku's FL across the board... Certainly not long enough to matter, at least.

canon luke wins, legends luke loses.

Despite all the Vader praise, Canon hasn't really been that nice to Canon ROTJ Luke, tbh.

doesn't canon have luke >/= vader? Did I miss something?

Does it? I'm just thinking back to Filoni's comments and that absurd H2H book putting Kylo above Luke.

Issue with Canon is that there's no concrete and consistent power ranking at all. It's really just left up to us.

Was Vader weakened by his love for Luke? I dunno.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
that absurd H2H book putting Kylo above Luke.
Eh? Wut?

Well Filoni certainly has a ranking, as he has made clear on multiple occasions inside and outside of Canon.

Luke is shit tier to him. So Lord help Luke if Filonis next animation includes him.

Originally posted by MythLord
Eh? Wut? He's talking about the Head-to-Head books(published by Scholastic.) They essentially create 'what-if' scenarios that pit different characters against one another, and also give their respective physical stats.

Some examples:
Sidious vs. Grievous
Yoda vs. Vader
Han vs. Jango
MagnaGuard vs. Royal Guard
etc. etc. etc.

The instance DarthAnt is citing is from the TFA: Head-to-Head book. Luke is pitted against Kylo in a theoretical battle. Kylo wins according to the book.

Which is clearly bogus.

Canon is bogus and more inconsistent than my golf 3-wood shots.

Originally posted by Kurk
Canon is bogus and more inconsistent than my golf 3-wood shots.

Yes, because Legends was sooo consistent, and never contradicted itself.

The only clear inconsistency in Canon that I've seen was in Darth Vader (2017) #13, and as soon as the mistake was noticed, the digital releases were fixed within a week.

My point is, legends depended far more on the technical aspects of characters, weapons, etc while this new canon just kinda makes things flex around what the plot demands without too much consideration for "Does this make sense?".

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Does it? I'm just thinking back to Filoni's comments and that absurd H2H book putting Kylo above Luke.

Issue with Canon is that there's no concrete and consistent power ranking at all. It's really just left up to us.

Was Vader weakened by his love for Luke? I dunno.
Well, Hildago does imply Vader wasn't fully commited to the darkside vs Luke in his oft misinterpreted comments regarding Vader's prime.

It's plausible for someone with Luke+ potential to surpass vader after a decade of training, but then Snoke seems to imply TLJ Ren is sub Vader at the beginning of TLJ.

That said, these books are proving to be increasingly dubious regarding canon:
-> Vader> Sidious?
-> TPM Maul> Dooku?
-> Saying Maul "easily drove Grievous back" when he just tk'd him off a platform?

Canon overall just isn't very consistent despite throwing out all the old lore for the purpose of making everything consistent.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

-> Saying Maul "easily drove Grievous back" when he just tk'd him off a platform?



Wheres that stated?

fact files

Cool.

Well given comic book fights are hard to accurately interpret -we never once see them actually clash Sabers in that fight- I will take the fact files word on that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Well, Hildago does imply Vader wasn't fully commited to the darkside vs Luke in his oft misinterpreted comments regarding Vader's prime.

It's plausible for someone with Luke+ potential to surpass vader after a decade of training, but then Snoke seems to imply TLJ Ren is sub Vader at the beginning of TLJ.

That said, these books are proving to be increasingly dubious regarding canon:
-> Vader> Sidious?
-> TPM Maul> Dooku?
-> Saying Maul "easily drove Grievous back" when he just tk'd him off a platform?

Canon overall just isn't very consistent despite throwing out all the old lore for the purpose of making everything consistent.

Damn... Is there a scan out there of the Kylo vs. Luke head to head? How do these books imply Vader > Sidious and TPM Maul > Dooku?

Originally posted by Kurk
My point is, legends depended far more on the technical aspects of characters, weapons, etc while this new canon just kinda makes things flex around what the plot demands without too much consideration for "Does this make sense?".

No wonder it's so wonky.

It's difficult to gauge how powerful Luke is in ROTJ since Vader may or may not have been hindered during their fight. In my opinion Luke would have lost if Vader wasn't emotionally conflicted, so I don't think he would be able to defeat the Count. Good fight though.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Vader> Sidious? Where was this stated?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> TPM Maul> Dooku? Where was this stated?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Saying Maul "easily drove Grievous back" when he just tk'd him off a platform? But TKing GG off a platform IS driving him back. No discrepancy there.

There's a book (don't remember the name) that lists the top 5 red lightsaber users, that's probably what he's referring to.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
There's a book (don't remember the name) that lists the top 5 red lightsaber users, that's probably what he's referring to.

Ah yes, that book is "Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know"

Gave the top red lightsaber duelists:

1. Vader
2. Sidious
3. Maul
4. Dooku
5. Ventress

So it suggests Vader > Palpatine & TPM Maul > Dooku in sabers, but not all out battles... Although it would obviously play a part.

already don't buy it; hows Vader above Sidious or Maul above Dooku?? thats a shit list

Originally posted by Mendax
Where was this stated?

Where was this stated? https://i.imgur.com/L6wtyfA.jpg
-Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know

Originally posted by Mendax
But TKing GG off a platform IS driving him back. No discrepancy there. The exact quote was "while Maul easily drove Grievous away":
https://i.imgur.com/lFm8vBO.jpg

Indeed, that is exactly what we saw happen in the source material:
https://i.imgur.com/3AT1wlY.jpg

A single force push easily drove Grievous "away"(ie. off the ledge.)

So, Vader>Palp in lightsabre combat.

Suddenly, Sidious' lightsabre duelling skills hype is going under.

Originally posted by relentless1
already don't buy it; hows Vader above Sidious or Maul above Dooku?? thats a shit list

I think it's a bit bogus as well, but canon is canon.

Disney loves to wank Vader

And Luceno loves to wank Palpatine. And Drew loves to wank Valkorion. And Veitch loves to wank Exar Kun.

Dooku wins. I don't see Luke taking sabers only either.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/L6wtyfA.jpg
-Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know

The exact quote was "while Maul easily drove Grievous away":
https://i.imgur.com/lFm8vBO.jpg

Indeed, that is exactly what we saw happen in the source material:
https://i.imgur.com/3AT1wlY.jpg

A single force push easily drove Grievous "away"(ie. off the ledge.)
I guess, but it's a really odd way of saying that. Anywho, if that's the meaning of the quote, than anyone trying to cite this as proof in a versus between Maul and Grievous isn't using this properly.

Grievous was watching another fight when Maul pushed him. And even then, the push did nothing to Grievous aside from bfring him.

Dooku did better against ROTS Anakin, then Vader did against ROTJ Luke. Perhaps Vader was weakened by his love and conflicted. But aside of that, Dooku did better against superior enemy. And both - Dooku and Vader, shared a similar goals in those duels.

Btw, Vader has far too much pathetic showings against pathetic enemies, he's not even close to being > Sidious.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

Grievous was watching another fight when Maul pushed him.

No he wasnt. Both Maul and Grievous were looking away at the same time, and that was a couple of pages prior to Maul BFRing Grievous.

Please dont make stuff up as its irritating on a debate forum.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang

And even then, the push did nothing to Grievous aside from bfring him.


Because Maul went to help Talzin, so didnt have time to confirm Grievous was destroyed.


Maul and Grievous fought 3 times in SOD. Maul best Grievous in 2 of those 3 fights. Once Physically, then the 2nd time with TK.

So it seems more likely that Maul is just better, rather than Grievous getting unlucky twice.

As both "includes" Grievous, you've conceded on this:


As impressive as it is for Maul to be able to lift his hand without the pressure of an ongoing light saber duel, it means nothing in the context of this versus.

And we know Maul would be able to successfully confirm Grievous' destruction because...

A fight requires two combatants. Only two instances in SOD qualify: Their two lightsaber duels.

The second has already been addressed and the only moment of note in the first was Grievous bypassing Maul's guard physically.

Why's Maul better again?

Originally posted by Galan007
Only the final(and most powerful) salvo of FL was truly meant to *kill* Luke, and it absolutely *would* have if Vader hadn't intervened Just in case you're suggesting that Palpatine's lightning was at full power in the end, can you point out where that's stated in the text?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1)As both "includes" Grievous, you've conceded on this:


As impressive as it is for Maul to be able to lift his hand without the pressure of an ongoing light saber duel, it means nothing in the context of this versus.

1A)And we know Maul would be able to successfully confirm Grievous' destruction because...

2)A fight requires two combatants. Only two instances in SOD qualify: Their two lightsaber duels.

3)The second has already been addressed and the only moment of note in the first was Grievous bypassing Maul's guard physically.

4)Why's Maul better again?


Lol so much denial.

1)Grievous wasnt looking away when Maul pushed him. When you have to make things up to even enter a debate why bother?

1A) Urm, because Maul had the high ground, wasnt the one EASILY flung off a cliff. So why should anyone believe Grievous was about to turn that fight around? Except that you wish it of course.

2)Oh im sorry I didnt realise Grievous wasnt around or even aware of a fight when Maul blitzed him.

3)Ah so being EASILY flung off a cliff via TK and Physically blitzed is nothing, but being Kicked 1 time is Da Bomb right?

4)Maul is better as proven twice in SOD and even admitted by both parties. Get over it.

youtube.com/watch?v=WsqVUnHi110

Originally posted by Sinious
Just in case you're suggesting that Palpatine's lightning was at full power in the end, can you point out where that's stated in the text?

If that's the case, then we have seen what Palpatine's full power of lightning does at Windu. He was basically just FL'd; that's all. Which brings me to the conclusion that Palpatine's Force lightning is capable to turn people into ash or ashy bones only when in the presence of a Dark Side nexusI(Kalakar Six, the Sith crystal)

Originally posted by Underachiever59
I love RotJ Luke, and feel like he's often underrated by people who attemp to write him off as inexperienced, or downplay his victory over Vader by attributing it soley to Vader holding back.

That's actually exactly the situation.

Vader was a fully-trained Jedi Knight who became a monstrously powerful Sith Lord.

Luke meanwhile has less training than most Younglings. (Jedi growing up in Clans had 10 years of training with teachers before going on to become Padawans.)

Most importantly, even Luke knew that Vader was holding back - with his words, "I feel the good in you, the conflict.."

https://potterwars.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/tumblr_nia9etexhr1r0xw5zo2_500.gif

Vader was holding back, it's Canon.

Also, Luke is less skilled than Zett Juckasa - and leagues beneath Dooku.

_GD9hHg9n-c

Luke had a lot of trouble handling Jabba the Hutt's hired mooks and he was an adult.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-10/10/17/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/anigif_sub-buzz-25348-1507672150-1.gif

Luke can't replicate Juckasa's feat of taking down elite Clonetroopers.

Luke gets utterly raped by Count Dooku.

- Luke is leagues below most lightsaber duelists - why are people trying to delude themselves in thinking otherwise?

Dooku although it wouldn't take much to come up with an argument in Luke's favor.

Luke's younger but Dooku's physical augmentation can easily make up for this. Dooku can augment his strength, speed, and endurance.

Luke's use of the Force while creative and intuitive is nothing Dooku hasn't seen and while he has more raw power, at this point he's not anywhere near Dooku. I don't think Luke would be immediately TK'd but he is outclassed and if Dooku had to resort to his Force abilities he wouldn't last too long.

In sabers Dooku obviously has a skill advatage as prodigal as Luke the best I can see him doing is contending. Luke's use of Djem So isn't polished or refined enough to consistently pummel Dooku into submission. If Dooku can exploit the weaknesses of Djem So when fighting Anakin, he can with Luke.

So, Vader is a worse lightsabre duelist than Dooku?

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Disney loves to wank Vader

They love to milk him as well.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So, Vader is a worse lightsabre duelist than Dooku?


In my opinion, canon Vader > canon Dooku in sabers and all out. Anakin had an advantage over Dooku in rots due to not only him being a lvl 9 against a high lvl 8 on the Gillard scale, but stylistically it favored Anakin as well, which was due to the kinetic energy generated by form V.

As Vader in the suit, you are now doubling his stylistic advantage over Dooku due to the enhanced power of Vader's mechanical limbs. In-universe quotes from Vader in Lord's of the Sith will tell you that he's only grown more powerful since doning the suit:

"He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."



AND his suit doesn't hinder him in any way:


"When man and machine were one, he no longer felt the absence of his legs or arms, the pain of his flesh, but the hate remained, and the rage still burned. Those, he never relinquished, and he never felt more connected to the Force than when his fury burned."

Luke

Originally posted by carthage
Luke

Luke dies.

LEL.

TOP KEK.

https://i.imgur.com/WqCHcCs.gif
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-10/10/17/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/anigif_sub-buzz-25348-1507672150-1.gif

Yeah, I can totally see RotJ Luke stalemating with YODA.

https://i.imgur.com/rdcXCDu.gif

Ben and Yoda were confident Luke would kill Vader tbh and the only doubt they had was Luke having mercy for Vader. Every time Luke mentioned Vader being conflicted, Vader took a swing at Luke who let his guard down. He nearly chopped Lukes head off after Luke said Vader was conflicted and the first time where Luke kicked Vader down the stairs and said he won't figjt Vader. Vader swung at Luke who had his saber deactivated.

Now, not denying Vader was conflicted. But, nothing states his performance was affected. Legends sources state both Luke and Vader are equal.in the Force at this point and in sabers, with Luke having the edge in speed and skill.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ben and Yoda were confident Luke would kill Vader tbh and the only doubt they had was Luke having mercy for Vader. Every time Luke mentioned Vader being conflicted, Vader took a swing at Luke who let his guard down. He nearly chopped Lukes head off after Luke said Vader was conflicted and the first time where Luke kicked Vader down the stairs and said he won't figjt Vader. Vader swung at Luke who had his saber deactivated.

Now, not denying Vader was conflicted. But, nothing states his performance was affected. Legends sources state both Luke and Vader are equal.in the Force at this point and in sabers, with Luke having the edge in speed and skill.

That's not saying much when both of them are slow.

Rise Of Darth Vader and George Lucas's own quotes state that Vader was old and slow, and Luke could barely handle a single cannon fodder mook.

Luke's realization of Vader's reluctance to kill his son does imply that Vader's performance was affected.

If Vader had fought Luke the way he had fought Starkiller, Luke would have been killed several times over.

Also Luke isn't lasting more than ten seconds against Count Dooku, and Count Dooku toyed with AotC Kenobi and AotC Kenobi would defeat Luke.

Even Zett Juckasa would defeat Luke with moderate difficulty.

_GD9hHg9n-c
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-10/10/17/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/anigif_sub-buzz-25348-1507672150-1.gif

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ben and Yoda were confident Luke would kill Vader tbh

They weren't confident - they were hopeful.

Luke is basically Zett Juckasa's girlfriend, and they knew if Luke died, they would have to get his replacement (Leia).

https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcy5v5nZdU1qdcfc3o1_500.gif

Oh Ziggy.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Ben and Yoda were confident Luke would kill Vader tbh and the only doubt they had was Luke having mercy for Vader. Every time Luke mentioned Vader being conflicted, Vader took a swing at Luke who let his guard down. He nearly chopped Lukes head off after Luke said Vader was conflicted and the first time where Luke kicked Vader down the stairs and said he won't figjt Vader. Vader swung at Luke who had his saber deactivated.

Now, not denying Vader was conflicted. But, nothing states his performance was affected. Legends sources state both Luke and Vader are equal.in the Force at this point and in sabers, with Luke having the edge in speed and skill.

Not the first time I heard you say legends Luke = Vader. What is the source on that?

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
In my opinion, canon Vader > canon Dooku in sabers and all out. Anakin had an advantage over Dooku in rots due to not only him being a lvl 9 against a high lvl 8 on the Gillard scale, but stylistically it favored Anakin as well, which was due to the kinetic energy generated by form V.

As Vader in the suit, you are now doubling his stylistic advantage over Dooku due to the enhanced power of Vader's mechanical limbs. In-universe quotes from Vader in Lord's of the Sith will tell you that he's only grown more powerful since doning the suit:

"He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."



AND his suit doesn't hinder him in any way:


"When man and machine were one, he no longer felt the absence of his legs or arms, the pain of his flesh, but the hate remained, and the rage still burned. Those, he never relinquished, and he never felt more connected to the Force than when his fury burned."

Dooku was old and an arrogant cuck.