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Setting: Naboo plains

Starting distance: 50 feet

Who wins?

Luke

Luke, solidly.

This would be an easy win for Luke if his post-DE pre-late-NR showings weren't so weird.

Luke stomps or gets stomped.

No one really knows.

Luke should win

Luke gets stomped

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke stomps or gets stomped.

No one really knows.

Lol, going with gets stomped myself, thank you very much.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke stomps or gets stomped.

No one really knows.

If Plagueis' ability to shutdown midi-chlorians is instant(per Azronger), then he wins.

Luke wins Sabers at least. The DE audiobook makes it clear Luke defeated Palps on his own during the duel and Leia only joined during the Force Storm.

Sabers - Luke
Force - Plagueis

All Out - Luke

Originally posted by The Merchant
Luke wins Sabers at least. The DE audiobook makes it clear Luke defeated Palps on his own during the duel and Leia only joined during the Force Storm.

In the audiobook Leia also states that Luke and Palpatine were moving so fast that she could "hardly see them". Mind you, this was a Leia who, moments later, ran fast enough to escape the Eclipse's destruction by Palpatine's rampant Force Storm -- and given the flagship's sheer vastness, the implications of that are pretty staggering, tbh(ie. that she not only covered kilometers in seconds, but also that there was enough spare time to prep/launch their escape shuttle before the ship was obliterated.) But I digress...

And it's no secret, but the DE Handbook also confirms that Palpatine was "more powerful than ever" at the time. So yeah... /shrug

She didn't use Force speed there, you know...
It's just like the Flash. If he doesn't use his powers: He cannot perceive Professor Zoom when speeding around.

The Eclipse was a Dark Side nexus, so... But it's impressive for both Luke and Leia.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
She didn't use Force speed there, you know... I'm merely saying that Leia obviously had access to *some* level of enhanced perceptions/reactions, yet outright stated that she could not perceive their battle at all. All she could do is sense what was happening via the ebb and flow of the light and dark sides of the force around her. Is it a testament to Luke and Palpatine's speed? I think so, but you're welcome to disagree.

Regardless, the primary thing to take away is that the audiobook confirmed Luke bested Palpatine there, without Leia 'amping' him in any way.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The Eclipse was a Dark Side nexus, so... Given that said battle took place ON the Eclipse, I'm not sure why you even felt the need to mention this..? Does it make what I said any less accurate..?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm merely saying that Leia obviously had access to *some* level of enhanced perceptions/reactions, yet outright stated that she could not perceive their battle at all. All she could do is sense what was happening via the ebb and flow of the light and dark sides of the force around her. Is it a testament to Luke and Palpatine's speed? I think so, but you're welcome to disagree.

Regardless, the thing to take away is that the audiobook confirmed that Luke bested Palpatine there, without Leia 'amping' him in any way.

Given that said battle took place ON the Eclipse, I'm not sure why you even felt the need to mention this..? Does it make what I said any less accurate..?

1. But she wasn't using Force speed. That's the power which allows one to move at fast speeds and see everything moving 'slower'
2. Well, it's a Dark Side focal. So it amplified Sidious' Force connection and hindered Luke and Leia's.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. But she wasn't using Force speed. That's the power which allows one to move at fast speeds and see everything moving 'slower' Linear running isn't the only time a force-user's perception/reaction capacities can become heightened, lol. But again, you're welcome to disagree -- doesn't change the end result, nor is it something I care to debate with you beyond this.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
2. Well, it's a Dark Side focal. So it amplified Sidious' Force connection and hindered Luke and Leia's. And this changes anything I said... How?

Why do you insist in popping-into nearly every thread and arguing for the sake of arguing?

Luke

Originally posted by Azronger
Luke gets stomped

Originally posted by Galan007
Linear running isn't the only time a force-user's perception/reaction capacities can become heightened, lol. But again, you're welcome to disagree -- doesn't change the end result, nor is it something I care to debate with you beyond this.

And this changes anything I said... How?

Why do you insist in popping-into nearly every thread and arguing for the sake of arguing?

1. Because you are clearly trying to hype Luke's speed feats based on Leia's perceptions.
2. Same answer.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. Because you are clearly trying to hype Luke's speed feats based on Leia's perceptions. ...Which is a logical assumption based on the perception/reaction/overall speed we know Leia had access to at the time. You're welcome to disagree -- doesn't matter to me either way.

But again: I'm not going to discuss this with you any further. There is simply no need to derail this thread your "yes-huh" and "nuh-uh" banter.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
2. Same answer. Same answer as what, lol?

Are nonsensical posts just your 'thing' or..? ermm

What is nonsensical?

Both 1 and 2 were addressed to your 1 and 2 points.

As I said you hype Luke based on Leia's perception. And then you use her Force speed feats(max increased perceptions) to compare with her weak perceptions(which are not at maximum level)
That's not how it works. It's like saying Kun is faster than Ulic because he appeared as a blur to all of them during the Trial of Ulic.

I don't think you actually comprehend what I am saying here, but again: not going to discuss it with you any further.

I think we both do. You are just doing a comparison of feats. I am not saying you are 'wrong' that Luke is as fast as Palpatine. All I am saying is the reason you use to justify that claim.

Yes, I do believe Luke=Sidious=Plagueis in Force speed.

Just that your argument is not applicable.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I think we both do. You are just doing a comparison of feats. I am not saying you are 'wrong' that Luke is as fast as Palpatine. All I am saying is the reason you use to justify that claim.

Yes, I do believe Luke=Sidious=Plagueis in Force speed.

Just that your argument is not applicable.

His main argument is that the audiodrama tells us that Luke beat Palpatine without Leia's assistance. That dueling has nothing to do with whether or not Leia can perceive the duel. You have yet to address this, and that's why he has been confused by your responses.

Heck, your counter-argument just serves to help Luke in this match up. Luke being hindered on the Eclipse, and still beating Palpatine, who is stated to be stronger than ever, without Leia boosting him, puts Luke>>>Plagueis

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This would be an easy win for Luke if his post-DE pre-late-NR showings weren't so weird.
A result of a change in publishers iirc

DE Luke defeated Palps in the duel on neutral ground. The only thing Palps had over him at the time was his Force storm + becoming a nexus of DS energy that bursted space around him, which is probably why Luke couldn't cut him down.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
His main argument is that the audiodrama tells us that Luke beat Palpatine without Leia's assistance. That dueling has nothing to do with whether or not Leia can perceive the duel. You have yet to address this, and that's why he has been confused by your responses.

Heck, your counter-argument just serves to help Luke in this match up. Luke being hindered on the Eclipse, and still beating Palpatine, who is stated to be stronger than ever, without Leia boosting him, puts Luke>>>Plagueis

Luke is as fast as Palpatine.

I just said that his argument with Leia's perceptiona to support Luke's speed is a fallacy. Understand now?

DE luke rapes.

Quote for Luke beating Sidious without being amped? The comic isn't the most descriptive in that scene

Leia: "They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them... I can sense waves of power -- the dark side and the light. But I feel... The light is winning!"

*Immediately afterward Luke overpowers and 'disarms' Palpatine(literally).*


Soon thereafter, Palpatine manifests a Force Storm and begins annihilating the entire fleet... Only then was Leia finally stated to have amped Luke.

Luke: "The power you've unleashed... Even you can't control it!"
Leia: "But WE can, Luke -- WE can do it! That's what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours!"

-Dark Empire Audio Drama

DE Luke is in no way in the same league with Palpatine. Leia was actively unlocking Luke's potential to much higher (if not full) capacity. He beat Sidious in sabers only due to this fact and was still outclassed in the Force.

Plagueis wins.

Yeah, in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, it is noted that even a Luke who had had his potential unlocked realized he couldn't defeat the Emperor alone. IIRC, Luke even stated in the Dark Empire II audio drama that Leia and co. had only seen a fraction of the Emperor's power, despite them being witnesses to the Force Storm he unleashed on Da Soocha V.

Originally posted by Sinious
DE Luke is in no way in the same league with Palpatine. Leia was actively unlocking Luke's potential to much higher (if not full) capacity. He beat Sidious in sabers only due to this fact and was still outclassed in the Force. As mentioned, the DE audio drama explicitly states that Leia only began amping Luke after he had already bested Palpatine in sabers.

That's all I/we were saying.

Indeed, Thrawn.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, it is noted that even a Luke who had had his potential unlocked realized he couldn't defeat the Emperor alone. IIRC, Luke even stated in the Dark Empire II audio drama that Leia and co. had only seen a fraction of the Emperor's power, despite them being witnesses to the Force Storm he unleashed on Da Soocha V.

Because he had the ability to create Force storms? And these Force storms are independent of his power.

Not to mention that the Eclipses and Byss are Dark Side nexuses which would vastly increase his power in the Force.

Originally posted by Sinious
So what? Leia amping Luke after the duel doesn't cancel out the fact that his potential was being unlocked before the fight. As mentioned, the DE audio drama explicitly confirms that this wasn't the case. Per said source, the amp only came after Luke bested Palpatine in sabers.

You're welcome to "so what" that away if you like. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

The DE audio drama made absolutely NO mention of Leia amping Luke prior to him besting Palpatine in sabers -- to act like that was the underlying implication/intention would be completely contradictory to what was actually stated in the source itself. Once more: we were explicitly told the precise moment when Leia began amping Luke, and it only came after said duel(when Palps manifested his final Force Storm.) If you choose not to accept this source, that's your prerogative... It doesn't matter to me either way.

Indeed DE Palpatine WAS more powerful than Luke with the force -- I never once said otherwise. But Palpatine isn't in this match, so I don't know why you even felt the need to make this distinction..?

The audiobook didn't, but other sources did.

/discussion

Originally posted by ILS
The audiobook didn't, but other sources did.

/discussion Not really.

Indeed most sources reference the fact that Luke was able to defeat Palpatine with the added help/power of Leia and her unborn child(which no one has ever contested.) However, most external sources I am aware of do not tell us exactly when she began amping Luke. The DE audio drama does.

That's all.

Damn you seem pretty insecure my dude. I was just pointing out that you never addressed the source Sinious posted about "resources being unlocked" by Leia.

The scan he posted, wherein Leia was unlocking/amping Luke, came after Luke had already bested Palpatine in sabers.

Again, though: I am(and have only been) talking about the audio drama exclusively.

Fair enough.

If there are truly no sources showing Luke was amped prior to the saber duel, then Dark Empire is probably one of his most powerful incarnations.

Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed DE Palpatine WAS more powerful than Luke with the force -- I never once said otherwise. But Palpatine isn't in this match, so I don't know why you even felt the need to make this distinction..?


https://youtu.be/3gZuYUfK_XU

Considering the fact that Palpatine was boosted by his Eclipse; it kind of equals both situations if Luke was really amped during his sabre battle with Palpatine.

Originally posted by Galan007
The DE audio drama made absolutely NO mention of Leia amping Luke prior to him besting Palpatine in sabers -- to act like that was the underlying implication/intention would be completely contradictory to what was actually stated in the source itself. Once more: we were explicitly told the precise moment when Leia began amping Luke, and it only came after said duel(when Palps manifested his final Force Storm.) If you choose not to accept this source, that's your prerogative... It doesn't matter to me either way.

Indeed DE Palpatine WAS more powerful than Luke with the force -- I never once said otherwise. But Palpatine isn't in this match, so I don't know why you even felt the need to make this distinction..?
Acting like the audio drama and comics can't contradict each other tbh

Originally posted by Galan007
The scan he posted, wherein Leia was unlocking/amping Luke, came after Luke had already bested Palpatine in sabers.

Again, though: I am(and have only been) talking about the audio drama exclusively. In the comic, Leia starts to glow as Luke starts talking generic light side stuff. Next time we see her is right before the panel where Luke beats Palpatine, the glow is wider. Right after, Leia states that she had already begun unlocking Luke's potential and it is worded as "Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke". It says Leia continues and the only unexpected thing Luke has done until that point was defeat Palpatine in a duel. I'm not sure how you can seriously think that Leia wasn't doing anything until the end of the duel.

It's entirely possible that the nature of his amp changed from a passive support that unlocks his potential to direct amp as they brought together their focus of power to stop Palpatine's force storm, since Leia isn't glowing anymore in that instance (suggesting a change in her function), and that's probably why Leia says in the audiobook "let me add my power to yours". So, again, Leia unlocking his potential via BM isn't mutually exclusive with her bringing together her power with Luke to cut Palpatine's connection to the storm.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Acting like the audio drama and comics can't contradict each other tbh Eh, when on earth did I ever so much imply that sources cannot contradict..?

That said, there's really not much contradiction here if we're solely talking about explicitly-stated evidence. The comics ONLY mention Leia boosting Luke's power after he bested Palpatine in sabers. The audio drama just tells us precisely when the amp occurred(which was also after Luke bested Palpatine in sabers.) /shrug

Originally posted by Sinious
In the comic, Leia starts to glow as Luke starts talking generic light side stuff. Next time we see her is right before the panel where Luke beats Palpatine, the glow is wider. Right after, Leia states that she had already begun unlocking Luke's potential and it is worded as "Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke". It says Leia continues and the only unexpected thing Luke has done until that point was defeat Palpatine in a duel. I'm not sure how you can seriously think that Leia wasn't doing anything until the end of the duel.

It's entirely possible that the nature of his amp changed from a passive support that unlocks his potential to direct amp as they brought together their focus of power to stop Palpatine's force storm, since Leia isn't glowing anymore in that instance (suggesting a change in her function), and that's probably why Leia says in the audiobook "let me add my power to yours". So, again, Leia unlocking his potential via BM isn't mutually exclusive with her bringing together her power with Luke to cut Palpatine's connection to the storm. In the audio drama, Leia was only using her abilities to *sense* the fight between Luke and Palpatine as it was transpiring, because she could not visually see it(which could very well account for the 'glow' around her in those panels.) She was not implied to be bolstering Luke's abilities at all during said battle, however.

*Palpatine and Luke start dueling*

Leia: "They're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them..! I can sense waves of power -- the dark side and the light. But I feel... The light is winning!"

*Luke then overpowers/disarms Palpatine.*

Soon thereafter, Palpatine manifests a Force Storm and begins annihilating the entire fleet... Only then was Leia finally stated to have started amping Luke.

Luke: "The power you've unleashed... Even you can't control it!"
Leia: "But WE can, Luke -- WE can do it! That's what the Holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours!"


There was no implication that she was amping him beforehand in the audio drama. None at all. I prefer not adding personal conjecture to a scene that is so explicit.

Galan def. makes a good point here.


For the thread- i could see DE Luke beating Plagueis in sabers and all out. He probably loses in a force battle though.

So, let's see. My interpretation is conjecture, despite everything I say about the source material being true, and despite the fact that it allows different sources to work together, but yours is legit because Leia wasn't able to see them, which literally means nothing. What a joke, honestly. Anakin wasn't able to see Mace and Palpatine while they were fighting. If you're suggesting that makes Leia useless, I can't wait to hear how you justify the idea of Mace Windu blitzing Anakin Skywalker.

Wow, calm down.

You're essentially trying to pretend as though Leia was amping Luke when he and Palpatine dueled in the audio drama, even though that is not so much as implied or alluded to... At all.

Sorry if you don't like my not accepting your conjecture as fact. I'm just telling you what is provable. Nothing more; nothing less.

I said she was amping him in the comic, and that it was only omitted in the audiobook, but never contradicted. Learn how to read.

Originally posted by Sinious
Anakin wasn't able to see Mace and Palpatine while they were fighting. If you're suggesting that makes Leia useless, I can't wait to hear how you justify the idea of Mace Windu blitzing Anakin Skywalker. Poor analogy.

In the film Anakin only walked into the room after Mace had already disarmed Palpatine and knocked him to the ground. He never actually witnessed any of their saber clash(which means that portion of the RotS novelization holds no merit whatsoever.)

Just saying.

Originally posted by Sinious
I said she was amping him in the comic, and that it was only omitted in the audiobook, but never contradicted. Learn how to read. Clearly that notion IS contradicted in the audio drama, due to the fact it wasn't so much as alluded to... And if it wasn't alluded to, it didn't happen.

Calm down.

Lmfao. Just embrace the L already

What "L"? I know you're angry right now, but you haven't disproven anything I have said here... At all. none

The Narrator saying Leia continued to unlock Lukes potential obviously refers to when she began to perform Forfe Harmony which the Audiobook explicitly shows us that happened during the Force storm. She even says "That's what the holocron meant. Let me join my powers with yours" why would she say that if.she was already doing so? Her saying "That's what the holocron meant" even implies she didn't know what Bodo Baas meant whem he said to join with her brother until the Force storm stuff.

DE Luke bested Palps with Sabers fair and square, the notion he was amped is something that's plagued this community for over a decade. It's time it died.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Narrator saying Leia continued to unlock Lukes potential obviously refers to when she began to perform Forfe Harmony which the Audiobook explicitly shows us that happened during the Force storm. She even says "That's what the holocron meant. Let me join my powers with yours" why would she say that if.she was already doing so? Her saying "That's what the holocron meant" even implies she didn't know what Bodo Baas meant whem he said to join with her brother until the Force storm stuff.

DE Luke bested Palps with Sabers fair and square, the notion he was amped is something that's plagued this community for over a decade. It's time it died.

Lies.

Sinious will snuff out all you heretics and your impiety toward His Imperial Majesty soon enough. Such blashemy is not tolerated within the Church of Sheev.

Nerdarted.

Originally posted by Sinious
I can't wait to hear how you justify the idea of Mace Windu blitzing Anakin Skywalker.

Because Anakin(just like Leia) wasn't using Force speed which increases all your cognitive and physical functions.

You getting so hysterically angry at people disagreeing with your interpretation of the material and incessantly throwing around these faux-insults(like little hissy-fits) is what's "worrying" to me, lol.

The audio drama makes absolutely NO mention of Leia amping Luke prior to him besting Palpatine in sabers... None at all. If it wasn't mentioned, implied, or alluded to, then why on earth should I assume that it was happening..? Because the comics depict Leia with a 'glow' around her during the fight? Lol, please.

In the audio drama, the amp ONLY came AFTER the saber clash. Period/end of story.

At this point, I hope for your own sake that you're trolling.

If trolling = pointing out facts from the audio drama, then yes. That's exactly what I'm doing.


You getting THIS heated because people are disagreeing with you is kind of unsettling, though. I've never seen anything quite like it, tbh.

Not every impolite person is angry, just like not every stupid comment is a fact. You keep repeating yourself like you have a syndrome or something. You still haven't proven why we should ignore every other source out there and look solely on the audio drama. Until then, no one will take you seriously, here. You can trust me on that one.

I'm repeating myself because you don't seem to be comprehending/grasping anything I have said here. Instead you're just lashing out in blind anger because you apparently cannot cope with people disagreeing with you. Not sure why you feel the need to be so hostile in every post... I've been quite respectful towards you so far.


As I have repeatedly stated: I am(and have been) exclusively discussing the audio drama here. That said, the DE comics do not explicitly contradict it, nor does the bio you posted.

In the comics Leia was only stated the have started amping Luke AFTER he bested Palpatine in sabers(which is corroborated in the audio drama.) The bio only references Leia's presence "lightening Luke's spirit" before the saber clash(which is also corroborated in the audio drama.) This is certainly not the same as 'amping' him prior to the fight, however... The comics/audio drama make it clear that Leia's presence essentially just broke Palpatine's hold over Luke, which allowed him to come back to the light... But again, per the audio drama the amp ONLY came AFTER the saber clash -- it makes NO mention/implication of him being amped beforehand.

Put your personal emotions/bias/conjecture to the side for a second, and look at the EXPLICIT evidence... Because that's what I am referencing. If you're not willing to do that, and would prefer to just childishly bash everyone who disagrees with you, then this 'discussion' is over. I'm not going to feed that sort of behavior.

Holy cringe

Just to throw in my two cents. Galan's evidence for the Battle Mediation beginning after the bout is flawed. We know based on the comic that Leia was unaware of her BM. Therefore, her own commentary on the subject holds little value. This confusion is solved if we differentiate a force bond from Battle Meditation. We assume Leia was passively amping Luke, without being aware herself, and then she makes a conscious effort to stop Palps alongside her brother. This explanation also fits with the glow.

But she WAS aware of her ability to amp Luke, because in both sources she consciously did so.

The notion that the writer was 'lying' to us, and wanted us to instead make assumptions sounds 'flawed' to me.

So what? Palpatine's Dark Side nexus(Eclipse) increased his own power and hindered Luke and Leia's. So, they are even.

Originally posted by Galan007
But she WAS aware of her ability to amp Luke, because in both sources she consciously did so.

I refuse to accept the notion that the writer was lying to us, and wanted us to instead make assumptions.

She was aware of her ability to bond with Luke, but she was not aware of her BM. This is why Leia finds BM incredibly difficult to comprehend. Her knowledge on the subject is EXTREMELY limited.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MEPjBXlJLms/WuE0mAP_4eI/AAAAAAAAMl0/2bDVC185t1gKspy7VA8lYPgU2HZ5UiNtwCL0BGAYYCw/h632/3063235608239541600%253Faccount_id%253D1

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm repeating myself because you don't seem to be comprehending/grasping anything I have said here. Instead you're just lashing out in blind anger because you apparently cannot cope with people disagreeing with you. Not sure why you feel the need to be so hostile in every post... I've been quite respectful towards you so far.


As I have repeatedly stated: I am(and have been) exclusively discussing the audio drama here. That said, the DE comics do not explicitly contradict it, nor does the bio you posted.

In the comics Leia was only stated the have started amping Luke AFTER he bested Palpatine in sabers(which is corroborated in the audio drama.) The bio only references Leia's presence "lightening Luke's spirit" before the saber clash(which is also corroborated in the audio drama.) This is certainly not the same as 'amping' him prior to the fight, however... The comics/audio drama make it clear that Leia's presence essentially just broke Palpatine's hold over Luke, which allowed him to come back to the light... But again, per the audio drama the amp ONLY came AFTER the saber clash -- it makes NO mention/implication of him being amped beforehand.

Put your personal emotions/bias/conjecture to the side for a second, and look at the EXPLICIT evidence... Because that's what I am referencing. If you're not willing to do that, and would prefer to just childishly bash everyone who disagrees with you, then this 'discussion' is over. I'm not going to feed that sort of behavior. I agree tbh.

But light side Battle Meditation does not increase your power in the Force or your skills. It just gives you a greater will to continue the fight. The Sith Battle Meditation does that because it's sort of 'mind control'.
Light Side Battle Meditation description:

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
She was aware of her ability to bond with Luke, but she was not aware of her BM. This is why Leia finds BM incredibly difficult to comprehend. Her knowledge on the subject is EXTREMELY limited.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MEPjBXlJLms/WuE0mAP_4eI/AAAAAAAAMl0/2bDVC185t1gKspy7VA8lYPgU2HZ5UiNtwCL0BGAYYCw/h632/3063235608239541600%253Faccount_id%253D1 Both the source material and audio drama explicitly state that Leia consciously added her power to Luke's. She undoubtedly knew what she was doing.

And how do you explain the glowing during the fight?

Originally posted by Galan007
Both the source material and audio drama explicitly state that Leia consciously added her power to Luke's. She undoubtedly knew what she was doing.

Yes, Galan, I accept that she added her power to Luke and that she was aware of that addition. However, she added her power to Luke during the force bond. She amped Luke with BM, while he was dueling. At this point in the fight, she was unaware of her addition.

Originally posted by Sinious
And how do you explain the glowing during the fight? In the audio drama, Leia could not visually see the fight with her own eyes(it was too fast for her to comprehend.) Instead, she reached out with the force -- sensing the ebb and flow of light and dark to determine who was winning:

Leia: "They're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them..! I can sense waves of power -- the dark side and the light. But I feel... The light is winning!"

So if you sync that specific part of the audio drama, with that specific part of the comic, then perhaps the glow present here could be interpreted as an artistic depiction of Leia reaching out with the force in order to sense the battle.


Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
However, she added her power to Luke during the force bond. Thing is, that wasn't stated.

As mentioned, the audio drama told us precisely when the amp happened. If the intent was that Leia was passively amping Luke beforehand, we would have undoubtedly been informed of such, imo.

Originally posted by Sheev
I agree tbh.

You are being corrupted. Abandon this sinful path, and come to love Sheev deeply, truly, fully. Accept him into your heart with unyielding devotion and be let the purity and the passion of your love transform you into a sword with which to slay the infidels, and a shield with which to defend His Imperial Majesty's sacrosanct honor. Do this you might make it into the priesthood of Sheevites.

Legit lold.

Originally posted by Galan007
You getting so hysterically angry at people disagreeing with your interpretation of the material and incessantly throwing around these faux-insults(like little hissy-fits) is what's "worrying" to me, lol.

The audio drama makes absolutely NO mention of Leia amping Luke prior to him besting Palpatine in sabers... None at all. If it wasn't mentioned, implied, or alluded to, then why on earth should I assume that it was happening..? Because the comics depict Leia with a 'glow' around her during the fight? Lol, please.

In the audio drama, the amp ONLY came AFTER the saber clash. Period/end of story.
Originally posted by Galan007
If trolling = pointing out facts from the audio drama, then yes. That's exactly what I'm doing.


You getting THIS heated because people are disagreeing with you is kind of unsettling, though. I've never seen anything quite like it, tbh.

LMFAO

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Yes, Galan, I accept that she added her power to Luke and that she was aware of that addition. However, she added her power to Luke during the force bond. She amped Luke with BM, while he was dueling. At this point in the fight, she was unaware of her addition. But even IF she was amping Luke during the saber battle, the amp was negligible at best because Luke couldn't even sense that his power was increasing at all until after the saber battle.

So yeah, doesn't seem like he was being boosted at that specific point.

@Galan:

1. It says in the comic that Leia was passively bming Luke.
2. The aforementioned amp in the audio drama is described as a Force Bond not BM. Additionally, Leia is cognizant of said amp.
3. This description bifurcates the Force Bond from the BM described in the comic.

So, we either call it a contradiction or we attempt to rationalize the discrepancy. In the case of contradiction, the comic holds precidence.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO You're right. I definitely HAVE seen people get that heated before.

I lied.

Also, about Leia being fully aware of everything that was going on:

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
@Galan:

1. It says in the comic that Leia was passively bming Luke.
2. The aforementioned amp in the audio drama is described as a Force Bond not BM. Additionally, Leia is cognizant of said amp.
3. This description bifurcates the Force Bond from the BM described in the comic.

So, we either call it a contradiction or we attempt to rationalize the discrepancy. In the case of contradiction, the comic holds precidence. In the audio drama, Leia only figures out what the Holocron meant(ie. that she needed to add her power to Luke's) AFTER the saber clash. Beforehand it was never once alluded to that she was amping Luke(be it actively OR passively.) This is the crux of the argument.


Regardless, I'm fine with perceived contradictions -- they happen all the time(especially in this type of media.) And if you've read my posts here, you'll note that attempting to draw parallels between these two forms of media was NEVER my intent(until I was literally asked to do so.) As I have mentioned ad nauseam: I have ONLY been discussing the audio drama here, because that is the source which was originally brought up on the first page.

The only reason this discussion went anywhere(because like I mentioned: I could give two shits if Luke was amped or not -- I have no vested interest in that side of things) is because others popped-in and automatically started going off on a hate-fueled bash-fest when myself(and others) cited explicit facts from the audio drama.

That's all.

I like the fact how people don't take in account Sidious' boost and Luke's hindered abilities on the Eclipse. And light side battle meditation does not increase your power nor your skills. It just gives you a Naruto: I believe I will become Hokage moment.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I like the fact how people don't take in account Sidious' boost and Luke's hindered abilities on the Eclipse. And light side battle meditation does not increase your power nor your skills. It just gives you a Naruto: I believe I will become Hokage moment.

Freedumb Nadd.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Freedumb Nadd.



Are you done, Azronger?

Originally posted by Galan007
In the audio drama, Leia only figures out what the Holocron meant(ie. that she needed to add her power to Luke's) AFTER the saber clash. Beforehand it was never once alluded to that she was amping Luke(be it actively OR passively.) This is the crux of the argument.


Regardless, I'm fine with perceived contradictions -- they happen all the time(especially in this type of media.) And if you've read my posts here, you'll note that attempting to draw parallels between these two forms of media was NEVER my intent(until I was literally asked to do so.) As I have mentioned ad nauseam: I have ONLY been discussing the audio drama here, because that is the source which was originally brought up on the first page.

The only reason this discussion went anywhere(because like I mentioned: I could give two shits if Luke was amped or not -- I have no vested interest in that side of things) is because others popped-in and automatically started going off on a hate-fueled bash-fest when myself(and others) cited explicit facts from the audio drama.

That's all. No one cares about you only wanting to talk about the audio drama, just like no one ever claimed the audio drama states that Luke was amped during the duel. There are other sources that have a say in this, and you've repeatedly ignored them. That's the only reason why this discussion is 3 pages long.

It's too bad that Luke himself says Leia's power was already added to Luke's before the fight even started. The idea of Leia helping Luke right before the fight and right after the fight, but not during the fight is insipid. The whole "she couldn't even see them" argument also doesn't work, because Force users cannot see other force users who move extremely fast in many instances, but they can still react to them or sense them without any issues. Anakin wasn't able to see Mace and Palpatine, but that doesn't make him useless in such confrontation. That scene not being in the movie doesn't mean anything in terms of Legends continuity. There is also the instance where Dooku cannot see Kenobi's attacks because they're too fast but still can parry them. Originally posted by Sheev
Comparing their preformances in ROTJ doesn't make sense. Both have become a good deal more powerful by DE. died

1. it wasn't stated in the original source material, which is what everyone is citing. in the source material Leia definitely know what was happening with her boost.

2. In most forms of media it is very common for the protagonist to lose to the big bad in the first fight, but then come back and stomp the big bad in round 2 for no reason other then they're the good guy... literally hundreds of examples. that doesn't mean there must have been an amp by default. esp. when the other source gives no timeframe at all.

Originally posted by Sheev
1. it wasn't stated in the original source material, which is what everyone is citing. in the source material Leia definitely know what was happening with her boost.

2. In most forms of media it is very common for the protagonist to lose to the big bad in the first fight, but then come back and stomp the big bad in round 2 for no reason other then they're the good guy... literally hundreds of examples. that doesn't mean there must have been an amp by default. esp. when the other source gives no timeframe at all.

1. Yes, it was.

2. There is a timeframe.

Jesus Christ

They were even in that duel. Either way, Sidious was boosted too by the Eclipse's Dark Side nexus.

Originally posted by Sinious
just like no one ever claimed the audio drama states that Luke was amped during the duel. Cool. So you FINALLY agree/admit that the audio drama never implied that Luke was amped in sabers? Cool, now we can move on because that is all I have been saying this entire time, lol.

The rest of your post was just more hate-fueled ranting, of which there is no need for me to respond. Glad we got this much settled at least.

And people call me: Dumb? Lmao

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool. So you FINALLY agree/admit that the audio drama never implied that Luke was amped in sabers? Cool, now we can move on because that is all I have been saying this entire time, lol. LMFAO. Another proof of you being illiterate. I already said as much like 2 pages ago:



As for this: You don't have the brain to make a proper case, so at least have the spine to concede.

Originally posted by Sheev
Disagree. Leia knew exactly when she started boosting Luke and so did Luke himself. If the boost was happening during the saber fight it was obviously borderline insignificant or else Luke would have known that his power was being increased. This isn't some inept forcetard we're talking about lol.. surely he can sense when external power is being dumped into him ?

Comparing their preformances in ROTJ doesn't make sense. Both have become a good deal more powerful by DE.

Originally posted by Sheev
1. it wasn't stated in the original source material, which is what everyone is citing. in the source material Leia definitely know what was happening with her boost.

2. In most forms of media it is very common for the protagonist to lose to the big bad in the first fight, but then come back and stomp the big bad in round 2 for no reason other then they're the good guy... literally hundreds of examples. that doesn't mean there must have been an amp by default. esp. when the other source gives no timeframe at all.

My soul cries out in sorrow, and my eyes weep blood at the sight of Sheev's namesake vilifying His Imperial Majesty. Oh, why? Why must you be so resistant to his divine allure? Why must you cause us so much pain with your recalcitrant secularisms?

Perhaps prayer will remedy your spiritual decay. Trust me - this is for your own good. Repeat after me:

Sweet Sheev
Sweet Sheev
Send your child
unto me
For the sins
of the unworthy
must be baptized
in blood and fear

I hope this helps. Come to me anytime with any holy and/or spiritual concerns, and I will give you Sheev's blessing to carry with you to battle. Never let your faith waver, my son.

plaguieis taught sidious almost everything he knew, sidious could beat luke after killed master

Galan, if you thought Sinious' posts were "hate-filled" then you've really only paid attention to debates here for a few weeks.

His post was standard - arguably leaning nice.

lmao

Originally posted by Sinious
LMFAO. Another proof of you being illiterate. I already said as much like 2 pages ago:

As for this: You don't have the brain to make a proper case, so at least have the spine to concede. How old are you? Honest question, because I just can't imagine a grown adult incessantly throwing temper tantrums like this.

Indeed I could have responded to each and every one of the bash-filled non-points you made earlier for the lulz, and I was prepared to(I literally had the entire post typed up.) But then I asked myself: "Why"..? It's clear at this point that you cannot possibly have a civilized discussion when someone is disagreeing with you, and as I have already stated: I don't indulge that sort of behavior(I've dealt with too many quanchi's, Supra's, and abhi's to waste my time playing childish games like that.) It simply isn't necessary.

That said, I'm sure you will just respond back to me with more of your infantile insults and such, and you're more than welcome to do so(I'm pretty convinced that's your 'thing' at this point, and you seem to really crave getting the last word.) However, I simply will not respond to that sort of BS beyond this.

Now, if you surprise me and actually send a civilized adult response my way, I'd be more than happy to continue this 'discussion' with you. The ball is in your court.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Galan, if you thought Sinious' posts were "hate-filled" then you've really only paid attention to debates here for a few weeks.

His post was standard - arguably leaning nice. That's pretty sad, then.

The days of civilized debates are a relic of the ancient past, it seems.

Glad I could help

@Galan

I think you should actually address the points made in this thread first. Post it if you actually have the counters. I hate repeating myself, or being forced to read someone repeat themselves. You shouldn't take the insults here too seriously.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's pretty sad, then.

The days of civilized debates are a relic of the ancient past, it seems.
Your rants demanding Sinious improve his etiquette is a lot worse, tbh.

Barring the last post of yours on the previous page(which I intentionally ignored for stated reasons), I have responded to each and every question you have directed towards me.

You keep acting like I have 'ignored' your points. Simply not the case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your rants demanding Sinious improve his etiquette is a lot worse, tbh. Asking for a civilized discussion before things get really out of hand is worse than bash-filled ranting, iyo?

My God. What has this forum become? facepalm

I have a proposal for you all: Let's just all settle down and gather 'round the campfire to toss stories of how awesome Sheev is.

@Galan, The whole time, I was talking about how other sources confirm what the audiobook only omitted, but never contradicted, and your last response to me was this:
Originally posted by Galan007
Cool. So you FINALLY agree/admit that the audio drama never implied that Luke was amped in sabers? Cool, now we can move on because that is all I have been saying this entire time, lol.

I think it sums up our discussion and how you didn't address my points. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your rants demanding Sinious improve his etiquette is a lot worse, tbh. tbh

Originally posted by Sinious
@Galan, I was talking about how other sources confirm what the audiobook only omitted, but never contradicted ...But I did address that earlier in the thread. Multiple times.

Maybe you should go back and reread our convo, and then ask me for clarification if you still have any questions pertaining to my opinion on the matter?

I like how Galan is one of the most snide posters in this thread but is taking the moral high ground over Sinious. Typical liberal.

@ILS

@Galan, I think it speaks to how little you understood what I was saying, since I explained that to you like 4 times, and even at the end, you still acted like I finally conceded that the audiobook didn't confirm that Leia was amping Luke during his duel with Palps. Few of your posts where you did try to counter some of the points that were made were all answered either by me, or someone else, tbh. Like I said, I hate repeating myself, so I'll be waiting for a proper post. Until then, I see no reason to put DE Luke above Plagueis, let alone anywhere near DE Sidious.

Originally posted by ILS
I like how Galan is one of the most snide posters in this thread but is taking the moral high ground over Sinious. Typical liberal. Snide because I'm calling someone out on childish behavior that simply isn't needed?

Interesting.

Originally posted by Sinious
@ILS

@Galan, I think it speaks to how little you understood what I was saying, since I explained that to you like 4 times, and even at the end, you still acted like I finally conceded that the audiobook didn't confirm that Leia was amping Luke during his duel with Palps. Few of your posts where you did try to counter some of the points that were made were all answered either by me, or someone else, tbh. Like I said, I hate repeating myself, so I'll be waiting for a proper post. Until then, I see no reason to put DE Luke above Plagueis, let alone anywhere near DE Sidious. And I hate repeating myself as well.

I answered your questions multiple times. If you don't like(or want to accept) the responses, that's fine. Doesn't matter to me either way.

So do DarthAnt ILS and Sinious all suck eachothers dicks or what? The last few pages have been a giant circlejerk between all of them. riding the shit out of that bandwagon!


Props to Galan for handling it in stride, though. Don't fall into their bullshit like i just did

^ Dude, shut up. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
Asking for a civilized discussion before things get really out of hand is worse than bash-filled ranting, iyo?

My God. What has this forum become? facepalm


That's been the standard since 2013.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Sheev
So do DarthAnt ILS and Sinious all suck eachothers dicks or what? The last few pages have been a giant circlejerk between all of them. riding the shit out of that bandwagon!


Props to Galan for handling it in stride, though. Don't fall into their bullshit like i just did
The chance of you not being a sock is like 0.1%.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


That's been the standard since 2013.

You're welcome.

Fair enough. I used to frequent this forum WAY back in the day(like 2007-2009 ish)... Back when Gideon and Nai used to go rounds. Those were the good days.

I must have missed the resurgence of '13.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=595434

Read this - ignore the first post / the actual respect thread.

It goes on for like a hundred pages, but rest assured they're all quality.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The chance of you not being a sock is like 0.1%.

But who?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=595434

Read this - ignore the first post / the actual respect thread.

It goes on for like a hundred pages, but rest assured they're all quality. There is some legit gold in the first few pages alone.

This legit made me lol, though:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Exactly. -_- I'm annoyed my shitty respect thread is further being shitted on.

Oh, wait until the actual shit show.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The chance of you not being a sock is like 0.1%.

I'm afraid a far more sinister plot is brewing.

He wears the trappings of a Sheevite and calls himself by His Imperial Majesty's name, but conducts himself like a Vitidiot. I even tried to get him to pray, and offered to grant Sheev's blessing, but he won't repent. The signs point to a terrifying prospect: he might be the anti-Sheevite. According to legend, the anti-Sheevite is one who calls himself by His Imperial Majesty's name, and feigns to be a prophet or a direct bodily manifestation, but denies the true Sheev in turn.

The end times are nigh. As the current Head of Sheevism, as per the decree of The_Tempest - Sheev bless him - I believe it is my destiny and duty to make the necessary preparations to combat this newly-emerged threat. Whether it is my destiny to finally strike him down or someone else's remains to be seen, but for now, try to hold on. Fight for Sheev's glory as if it were your own.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh, wait until the actual shit show. So I'm like 20pgs in, and... It's f*cking hysterical, tbh.

But I see now that YOU were ultimately responsible for the great corruption of 2013.

DarthAnt66: Shatterpoint of the SWvs.Forum.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Dude, shut up. srsly

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The chance of you not being a sock is like 0.1%. Nah i'm all natural bby.

Just a casual observer is all.

Originally posted by Galan007
So I'm like 20pgs in, and... It's f*cking hysterical, tbh.

But I see now that YOU were ultimately responsible for the great corruption of 2013.

DarthAnt66: Shatterpoint of the SWvs.Forum.
Hence:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You're welcome.

SWF revived this forum from its inactivity and remade it in its image.

Originally posted by Azronger
I'm afraid a far more sinister plot is brewing.

He wears the trappings of a Sheevite and calls himself by His Imperial Majesty's name, but conducts himself like a Vitidiot. I even tried to get him to pray, and offered to grant Sheev's blessing, but he won't repent. The signs point to a terrifying prospect: he might be the anti-Sheevite. According to legend, the anti-Sheevite is one who calls himself by His Imperial Majesty's name, and feigns to be a prophet or a direct bodily manifestation, but denies the true Sheev in turn.

The end times are nigh. As the current Head of Sheevism, as per the decree of The_Tempest - Sheev bless him - I believe it is my destiny and duty to make the necessary preparations to combat this newly-emerged threat. Whether it is my destiny to finally strike him down or someone else's remains to be seen, but for now, try to hold on. Fight for Sheev's glory as if it were your own.
lmao

Originally posted by ILS
I like how Galan is one of the most snide posters in this thread but is taking the moral high ground over Sinious. Typical liberal.
I disagree. From what I read it seems like he was just pointing out a simple fact and got shit for it from a Sidious fanboy. (Not saying I think DE Luke>Sidious in sabers)

galan is literally a t3 poster on this forum lmao put some respek on his name

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I merely skimmed through that post and died from so much bullshit. I'll reply tomorrow, I'm on my phone atm. Let us just say that your time here will be short and painful with me and others.

why did you bold this lol

2014 Ant was an entity beyond my current understanding.

Pulling a Reverse-Flash on yourself. That's pretty ironic - for ya!

Originally posted by The Ellimist
why did you bold this lol

Because he is a bold one.

Originally posted by Azronger
IIRC, Luke even stated in the Dark Empire II audio drama that Leia and co. had only seen a fraction of the Emperor's power, despite them being witnesses to the Force Storm he unleashed on Da Soocha V.

Wait seriously?

No. Skillz looked into it and said that's fake news.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
No. Skillz looked into it and said that's fake news.

I looked into it with him. Sadly it turned out to be referring to his military power.