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The Ellimist
Given all of the often legitimate criticisms of the direction society is headed, can we at least admit that, by almost every objective metric, we are astronomically better off than we've ever been in history?

Whether you're looking at life expectancy, GDP per capita, human rights proliferation, literacy rates, corruption rates, rates of violence, etc., we are either in the middle or the start of a golden age.

Kurk
Who's "we"?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Kurk
Who's "we"?

I guess only humans, since factory farming is a thing. Or not only us, depending on a bunch of factors.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given all of the often legitimate criticisms of the direction society is headed, can we at least admit that, by almost every objective metric, we are astronomically better off than we've ever been in history?

Whether you're looking at life expectancy, GDP per capita, human rights proliferation, literacy rates, corruption rates, rates of violence, etc., we are either in the middle or the start of a golden age.
By the metrics you listed yes.

Culturally, that's a different story, I think the culture itself is decaying even while we make advancements in technology and economic production.

And in terms of human rights, freedom of speech is being erroded in the rest of the west, the UK in particular.

The Ellimist
When do you think we were at our peak culturally?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by The Ellimist
When do you think we were at our peak culturally?
Idk, maybe the first decade of the 21st century...?

Putinbot1
Interestingly enough many would argue factory farming tied humans to a specific lifestyle where we had to "work" and lost a lot of our freedoms. Some would also argue it restricted our diet and we were as domesticated by the crops we farmed as they were by us. They would also argue they tied us to communal societies and hierarchies. It's all interesting stuff.

Beniboybling

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Idk, maybe the first decade of the 21st century...? lmao

Kurk
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Idk, maybe the first decade of the 21st century...? And could you tell us why you believe that is; knowing fully well you may be influenced by your Texan background?

Robtard
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given all of the often legitimate criticisms of the direction society is headed, can we at least admit that, by almost every objective metric, we are astronomically better off than we've ever been in history?

Whether you're looking at life expectancy, GDP per capita, human rights proliferation, literacy rates, corruption rates, rates of violence, etc., we are either in the middle or the start of a golden age.

Absolutely.

Doesn't mean we still can't improve and need to improve, but we're doing better than we ever have as a whole.

Social Media is a problem though, not sure we've had that kind of oesonal disconnect in such large masses before.

Putinbot1
Originally posted by Robtard
Absolutely.

Doesn't mean we still can't improve and need to improve, but we're doing better than we ever have as a whole.

Social Media is a problem though, not sure we've had that kind of oesonal disconnect in such large masses before. Agreed, I also think something weird is happening to our youth due to the internet and rolepaying they now obsess about cartoon tweens instead of real women. Instead of having a modern equivalent of a Debbie harry poster at the end of there bed they wank off to pictures of Raven from the teen titans. ****ing ridiculous tbh.

Flyattractor
Don't Worry about it. You Leftist Fascists are dong everything you can to get rid of Free Speech. That should solve your "Social Media" Problems up nicely.

Robtard
Originally posted by Putinbot1
Agreed, I also think something weird is happening to our youth due to the internet and rolepaying they now obsess about cartoon tweens instead of real women. Instead of having a modern equivalent of a Debbie harry poster at the end of there bed they wank off to pictures of Raven from the teen titans. ****ing ridiculous tbh. When I was a late-late teen it was Christina Applegate, Jennifer Anistan, Alyssa Milano and Monica Bellucci, sure I watched cartoons as well, but I wasn't touching myself to them.

dadudemon
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Given all of the often legitimate criticisms of the direction society is headed, can we at least admit that, by almost every objective metric, we are astronomically better off than we've ever been in history?

Whether you're looking at life expectancy, GDP per capita, human rights proliferation, literacy rates, corruption rates, rates of violence, etc., we are either in the middle or the start of a golden age.

You're kind of right.

1. Rapes are down.
2. Violence is down.
3. Homicides are down.
4. Property theft is down.
5. Your mom is down.
6. War deaths (absolute and per capita) are down.
7. Infant mortality is down.
8. Standard of living is up.
9. Education is up.
10. And life expectancy is up.

Robtard
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're kind of right.

1. Rapes are down.
2. Violence is down.
3. Homicides are down.
4. Property theft is down.
5. Your mom is down.
6. War deaths (absolute and per capita) are down.
7. Infant mortality is down.
8. Standard of living is up.
9. Education is up.
10. And life expectancy is up.

No. 5 seems like it doesn't belong

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Idk, maybe the first decade of the 21st century...?
Ah, so when people were oppressed based on their sexual orientation?

Gotcha.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ah, so when people were oppressed based on their sexual orientation?

Gotcha.
I didn't say that's what was good about it, and you and I have had conversations before where I've flat out said I don't have a problem with homosexuality.

SquallX
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ah, so when people were oppressed based on their sexual orientation?

Gotcha.

He never said it was perfect.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I didn't say that's what was good about it, and you and I have had conversations before where I've flat out said I don't have a problem with homosexuality.
I never said you were homophobic. It just seems to me your selectively remembering the good things from the good old days due to nolstalgia.

That the main issues you have with American culture don't involve legal oppression speaks volumes of how much we've progressed.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I never said you were homophobic. It just seems to me your selectively remembering the good things from the good old days due to nolstalgia.

That the main issues you have with American culture don't involve legal oppression speaks volumes of how much we've progressed.
I'm not selectively remembering only the good things, I'll even admit that gay marriage and gay acceptance was a great achievement of the past decade, but unless I'm not remembering something that's really the only cultural achievement and a lot of the other cultural shifts have been regressive.

Robtard
What was better about 2000-2010 compared to right now, culturally?

dadudemon
Originally posted by The Ellimist
When do you think we were at our peak culturally?

1920 post-August.

Women got the right to vote.

And if I'm not mistaken, Socioeconomic Mobility for blacks was higher in the 1920s, despite the racism, black families were nowhere near as fractured (far less single-parent families).

http://faculty.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/Social%20Mobility%20Rates%20in%20the%20USA.pdf



If we could bring back the SEM from the 1920s for blacks, but keep the 1970s rights for blacks, and keep all those women's rights the same, 1920 post-August seems best.

Basically, I don't like any of it as there is shit in all of it. And choosing 1920 just because the right to vote for women is important to me (more important that race issues), I'd have to choose 1920 instead of any other year.

Flyattractor
Obama did set the Country back in Race Relations to a worse level of Racism and Hatred since probably the days of slavery.. Probably even worse then then to be true.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Obama did set the Country back in Race Relations to a worse level of Racism and Hatred since probably the days of slavery.. Probably even worse then then to be true.

Nah, he didn't. Not at all. thumb up

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm not selectively remembering only the good things, I'll even admit that gay marriage and gay acceptance was a great achievement of the past decade, but unless I'm not remembering something that's really the only cultural achievement and a lot of the other cultural shifts have been regressive.
-> More and more states have stopped violating the rights of people due to their avenue of recreation

-> Sexual Assault is now reported and people are spilling the beans, even in industries like Hollywood

-> More diverse groups of people are reaching the top of industries

-> More people support citizens getting equal representation

-> More people support voting rights

-> Countries like Chile have become more and more democratic

-> Religions have been forced to drop immoral dogmas

-> The pope is now less sexist, racist, and homophobic than our last one

-> Anchors like Bill Reilly are resigning when sexual allegations pile up

-> Democracy continues to get more and more popular around the world

-> Sensationalist journalism is getting more critizism

-> Racism is now heavily scrutinized. Remember when fox pushed Obama being a radical, unamerican muslim? Yeah they can't do that anymore.


You really have to cherrypick to come to the conclusion we've culturallly declined.

snowdragon
Except for those silly countries that believe sharia and parts of sharia law should be the rule of country........silly Muslims and all.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Racism is now heavily scrutinized. Remember when fox pushed Obama being a radical, unamerican muslim? Yeah they can't do that anymore.

Well, people like to muddy this one up.

Calling Trump all sorts of names because of his hair color and skin color is okay. Right? It's easier to call him that and we rationalize it by saying it's okay because he's a dick and a shithead.

Also, it's still stupid as hell to even care if Obama is Muslim. no expression

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by snowdragon
Except for those silly countries that believe sharia and parts of sharia law should be the rule of country........silly Muslims and all.
pretty sure that was around in the 2000's too.

Making fun of a president's hairdo isn't quite on par with pushing the narrative that the president isn't american, but okay.


And I'm sure you can cite me a source comparably mainstream as fox news that attacked Trump for being white?

Surtur
Don't know when I could say we were at our "peak" culturally. But it does feel lately we've gone backwards in some ways.

Though I will get specific with around the time I think one specific aspect of culture peaked: Music peaked in the 60s and 70s IMO.

Though yes when it comes to quality of life yes things have gotten far far better,

Lord Lucien
We peaked in the 1950s. As soon as blacks started getting the right to not be obstructed in voting, everything started going down hill. Pretty soon they were getting rid of polio and smallpox--those were time honored traditional diseases that leftist communists lobbied to have taken away from our children. Then the lead got taken out of our gasoline. Then the internet got invented. Then infant mortality and global poverty declined. Then we started seriously considering space exploration and missions to Mars.



I tells ya, it all started with them f*cking Jews given the n****** the right to not be legally oppressed. It was better back in the good 'ol days of women and non-Christians knowing their place.

Kurk
DMB, you made a claim about how the early 21st century was our cultural peak; now either justify or withdraw it.


Originally posted by Putinbot1
Agreed, I also think something weird is happening to our youth due to the internet and rolepaying they now obsess about cartoon tweens instead of real women. Instead of having a modern equivalent of a Debbie harry poster at the end of there bed they wank off to pictures of Raven from the teen titans. ****ing ridiculous tbh.
I didn't think someone as oh so mature and wise as yourself would be familiar with Raven considering how busy you are with your 'bic boi' responsibilities.


If you can direct me to real-life women with masculine and dark triad personalities, I would be more than happy to pursue them. So far though, I haven't really found any yet who fit the description.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kurk
DMB, you made a claim about how the early 21st century was our cultural peak; now either justify or withdraw it.
Yeah and then I had to go to calculus class. Give me an hour and a half my dude.

Surtur
Originally posted by Kurk
DMB, you made a claim about how the early 21st century was our cultural peak; now either justify or withdraw it.



I didn't think someone as oh so mature and wise as yourself would be familiar with Raven considering how busy you are with your 'bic boi' responsibilities.


If you can direct me to real-life women with masculine and dark triad personalities, I would be more than happy to pursue them. So far though, I haven't really found any yet who fit the description.

You just had to go and make things creepy with those last few sentences...

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And I'm sure you can cite me a source comparably mainstream as fox news that attacked Trump for being white?

Sure! But you'll never agree to it or acknowledge it's existence because it goes against your preconceived political notions.

Trump was elected only because he iswhite. Trump doesn't deserve the Oval Office and he's only in the Oval Office because he's white. Trump's dumb and couldn't think his way out of a wet paperbag.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/08/us/trump-affirmative-action-president/index.html


Try my simple test out: is it racist if you switch the race?

Obama was elected only because he is black. Obama doesn't deserve to be president and he only got elected because he's black. Obama's dumb and couldn't think his way out of a wet paperbag.

Well, shiiiit, sounds racist f*ck and this is the same shit people were saying about Obama AND people were calling it racist.

Hmmm...


HmmmmmmmmmMMMMMmMMMmMMMMMMMMMMmmm there Rockyboy. Hmmm. Hmmm indeeeeeeeed. peaches



Also...Trump was elected because he's white and Americans are racist.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/


And toe-head. And orange-skin. And rich-cracker.



So I shit on people for saying Obama was a Muslim-terrorist who was going to take all of our guns. Just the same as I shit on people for denying the anti-White racism against Trump. Here's the kicker: I don't CARE if people say Trump is shit because he's white. Or that Obama is a rapist because he's black. It's stupid and ignorant, for sure, but it does nothing to make me upset.

Surtur
Damn that was brutal.

Nephthys
While Dmb of course didn't show approval to the homophobia, sexism, racism etc that existed in the 1910's, his suggestion that it was the cultural peak certainly does suggest that he considers the positives of the era to outweigh the innumerable gross injustices perpetrated during the period.

The Ellimist
^ ? He said 21st century, not 20th.

Nephthys
My mistake. Although now I'm left wondering what exactly he thought was so great about the America consumed by post-911 hysteria.

Surtur
Originally posted by Nephthys
My mistake. Although now I'm left wondering what exactly he thought was so great about the America consumed by post-911 hysteria.

You sure seemed awfully ready to believe he was a homophobe though...

Kurk
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah and then I had to go to calculus class. Give me an hour and a half my dude. How hard is Calc II? I'm trying to determine if I should squeeze it in next semester with other difficult science/math classes.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kurk
How hard is Calc II? I'm trying to determine if I should squeeze it in next semester with other difficult science/math classes.
I found calc II relatively easy, but I'm not the most reliable source for that since I was one of the top 5 people in my class when I was taking it in high school.

The Ellimist
Most universities use Calc II as a weeder course.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kurk
And could you tell us why you believe that is; knowing fully well you may be influenced by your Texan background?
I grew up in Austin Texas, that's not exactly right-wing territory my dude.

But in short, I think our culture has been shifting away from a few things.

One of such things is respect for the individual. Racism for example used to be opposed on more of an individualist basis, ie. you shouldn't judge someone or hold someone to different standards for your skin color you should judge them for the quality of their character, but now the culture has shifted into more tribal/identitarian/collectivist racial tensions where people are viewed essentially as classes with complicit guilt or innocence based on their identity with universities and ideologues promulgating the idea that "all white people are racist and you can't be racist if you're black." Corporations and education even now teach that things like "colorblindness" or meritocracy are forms of "white supremacy" or "white ideology." Identitarian tensions are much worse, and race is not approached as much from the presupposition of the dignity of the individual, but rather as group interest and group conflict. Collectivist thinking rather than individualist thinking leads to laws and practices which are repressive to the individual, such as hate speech laws (which have expanded in the UK to the point where you can be arrested for making a joke or posting song lyrics, or in Canada to the point where Senators will defend compelled speech in a Senate hearing) which oppress the individual to protect a group from offense, or such as diversity quotas which unfairly discriminate in the individual to elevate the proportion of a demographic within a certain institution. This is antithetical to the liberal value upon which human rights and actual opposition to racism are based. A woman who was running for an important position in the DNC said "It's my job as a white person to shut other white people up," and the Labour party in the UK tried to hold an event where they charged white people more to attend.

Another such thing is lack of respect for the overarching societal structures, such as cultural standards and values and national identity. As has already been addressed, the cultural standard of meritocracy has been eroded and castigated as a form of white supremacy in favor of diversity quotas in both the private and public sector which necessitate identity based discrimination. As another example the cultural view of marriage and sex has been eroded, partially as a consequence of feminist critique of marriage as "an oppressive patriarchal structure" and partially as a side effect of the feminist and LGBT's sexual liberation which have had their benefits but at the same time have had some consequences in the form of sex being treated as a casual thing and the castigation of anyone who argues that you shouldn't sleep with someone you barely know as some oppressive authoritarian prude trying to "control women's bodies" and the rise of the single motherhood rate and all of the socioeconomic consequences of single motherhood is a consequence of this shift in cultural attitude towards sex and marriage. Another example more prominent in the rest of the west than in the US is the erosion of belief in the national culture and national identity in favor of "multiculturalism" which poses problems in its acceptance and defense of cultures which are antithetical to liberal values. This is largely because foreign cultures have been shifted into the same category as foreign race, so criticism of an outside culture is often conflated with racism, such as criticism of Islam being castigated as racism. In the UK the police were more hesitant to act against grooming gangs that were predominantly Muslim because they were afraid of being called racist, and in Canada people were arrested for hate speech for protesting a mosque... which they were protesting because the mosque in question was calling to Allah for the deaths of "those filthy Jews." And attempts in Europe for example at defending national values or promoting a national identity are castigated as "far-right" and racist. A society that castigates meritocracy as oppression is hurting itself economically and inculcating unfair discrimination on the basis of things other than merit. A society that doesn't respect the value of the family leads to more children being raised in broken homes. A society that refuses to defend its own culture leaves it weak to being undermined and exploited by inferior cultures.

And lastly our culture has been shifting towards an unhealthy attitude towards dialogue, by which a cultural movement is seeking a position of hegemonic control over the dialogue. One example is the redefinition of words or attempted alteration of terms referring to specific things, such as racism which academics have attempted through critical race theory to use to impugn all white people with a sort of collective guilt and all black people with collective innocence of racism. Other examples are euphemistic replacements of terms judged to be offensive such as "illegal immigrant" or "anchor baby" or "chain migration." This attempt to redefine the language of a political conversation in a loaded way and force society through societal pressure to accept these terms is to manipulate the conversation to a predetermined outcome rather than reach it through honest conversation. Additionally there is the attempt through victimhood status to shift identity from something firmly grounded in biological fact or social negotiation to being purely a self-defined whim that others must accept or else they are a bigot, a cultural movement suggesting that if you do not let a "non-binary person" dictate the words you must use or how you refer to them then you are a bigot.
More disturbingly there is an attempt being made to shrink the overton window of acceptable ideological discourse to prevent certain ideas from being challenged through a combination of governmental, educational, media, corporate, and social pressure. The most obvious example of this is the ever expanding reach of hate speech laws in the western world to the point where you can be prosecuted for making a joke or posting rap lyrics in the UK. Another example is the mainstream media's unfair castigation of those who disagree with modern progressivism as far-right or alt-right, such as the center-left individualist Sargon, or the somewhere in the center also individualist Jordan Peterson, or the accusation of Ben Shapiro the yamacha wearing Jew as being a part of the alt-right, in order to discredit their viewpoints with factually baseless ad hominems. Or shit even when someone such as Pewdiepie makes an obvious joke, the mainstream media tries to paint him as an antisemite to attack his source of revenue. Likewise, within the education system there is the promulgation of political ideology, such as the indoctrination of elementary schoolers into the social constructivist view of gender where it can be whatever you say it is, or teaching elementary schoolers that colorblindness and meritocracy are forms of white supremacy, or academics at universities promulgating critical race theory. On the corporate level this can be seen with Google instructing its employees that meritocracy is "white ideology" and excludes non-white people. On the governmental level, this can be seen in Canada's bill C-16 which wrote the indisputably factually incorrect claim that biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity vary independently of each other into Canadian law. It can also be seen by government media outlets pushing these political ideologies using taxpayer money, such as the BBC promoting a black transwoman saying that white people are the most destructive force of nature on the planet, or the Australian Broadcasting network trying to push left-wing political ideology on children through a children's show. And lastly the social pressure used to try and shrink the overton window is just ridiculous. Protesting speakers on college campuses has shifted from presenting a counterpointing viewpoint to attempts to either get them deplatformed or actively disrupting the event (sometimes with vandalism or violence) to prevent them from being able to speak. Likewise, this social pressure has risen to the extent where people who aren't even politically relevant are raked over the coals by social outrage for innocuous things, such as the football player who posts a picture of his daughter and her boyfriend with him jokingly holding a gun in what was an obvious dad joke, and he got pressured into apologizing by people outraged he would dare hold a gun or "treat his daughter like his property" or some shit.
All of this shit is not an honest attempt to promulgate ideological views through dialogue, but an attempt to promulgate ideological views through hegemonic dominance and the disenfranchising of those who hold contrary viewpoints.

All of this is not culturally healthy, it is the undermining of things foundational and essential to the western tradition.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> More and more states have stopped violating the rights of people due to their avenue of recreation
Ah yes weed legalization, I forgot about that one somehow, fair enough.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Sexual Assault is now reported and people are spilling the beans, even in industries like Hollywood

-> Anchors like Bill Reilly are resigning when sexual allegations pile up

And this movement has its own negative consequences as well, such as this "listen and believe" bullshit and the view of male sexual expression in general as domineering, harassing, and oppressive. In order to address sexual assault, colleges for example have set up quasi-court systems for which they lack the legal expertise to properly operate, and for which the presumption of innocent until proven guilty is not held at such high esteem.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> More diverse groups of people are reaching the top of industries
I could give less of a shit honestly. The goal should be equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome, because when you aim for equality of demographic representation you necessitate the use of diversity quotas and affirmative action that are discriminatory by their very nature and expressed goals. The cultural shift towards being obsessed with this pie chart demographic representation is not a good thing.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> More people support citizens getting equal representation
Unless its enough support for a constitutional amendment it has no fruits to bear.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> More people support voting rights
You can vote if you just go out and get an ID.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Countries like Chile have become more and more democratic

-> Democracy continues to get more and more popular around the world
Fair enough on these points, let me amend my cultural statement to speaking purely in the context of the western world since my knowledge beyond the west is a bit dicier. I was imprecise and inaccurate in my speech failing to distinguish my statement as being in a western rather than global context.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Religions have been forced to drop immoral dogmas
Like what in the past eight years?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> The pope is now less sexist, racist, and homophobic than our last one
Well following your line of thought consider that your president is Donald Trump with all of the baggage that carries for you.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Sensationalist journalism is getting more critizism
Yes and that is something I'm hoping continues to grow.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Racism is now heavily scrutinized. Remember when fox pushed Obama being a radical, unamerican muslim? Yeah they can't do that anymore.
Dadudemon already roasted you pretty thoroughly on this point in regards to the media. In regards to racism... no... racial tensions have gotten worse not better in the past decade, people preach that all white people are racist and no black people are racist while calling their views "antiracist", there are schools teaching that treating black people and white people the same and meritocracy are forms of white supremacy, and the media and social mobs repeatedly baselessly accuse non-racists of being racist. This is not progress this is regress.

Rockydonovang
DMB, you might benefit from reading the things you weigh in on.


Bruv, did you even bother to check what double d cited?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/08/us/trump-affirmative-action-president/index.html
^^^^^
I asked for headlines attacking Trump on the basis of race, Double D posted a headline disagreeing with Trump on the basis of policy. Whether or not you agree with the policy position the author takes, this is not the same as attacking someone on the basis of race.

Tell me how I was roasted again?
Fine, we can call this a tie.

The issue is states go out of their way to make sure ID's are difficult to get for certain demographics. And even then, states still have forced laws that oppress the rights of ex-convicts, and find bs ways to imprison people who also have their rights taken away. States also reduce the amount of voting places in big cities to suppress turnout.

And the bottom line is that voting id laws as they're enforced have prevented tens of thousands of people from voting in states and there's no evidence justifying the law. So there's no defense for voter id laws. More opposition to partisan and unwarranted laws restricting the democratic process is a cultural win.


The catholic church now lets everyone go to heaven and the majority of religious people accept that parts of religious belief can be refuted by scientific discovery.



We were discussing culture, no?

You're cherry picking anecdotes. And these were all issues before 2010, they just didn't get coverage.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I grew up in Austin Texas, that's not exactly right-wing territory my dude.

But in short, I think our culture has been shifting away from a few things.

One of such things is respect for the individual. Racism for example used to be opposed on more of an individualist basis, ie. you shouldn't judge someone or hold someone to different standards for your skin color you should judge them for the quality of their character, but now the culture has shifted into more tribal/identitarian/collectivist racial tensions where people are viewed essentially as classes with complicit guilt or innocence based on their identity with universities and ideologues promulgating the idea that "all white people are racist and you can't be racist if you're black." Corporations and education even now teach that things like "colorblindness" or meritocracy are forms of "white supremacy" or "white ideology." Identitarian tensions are much worse, and race is not approached as much from the presupposition of the dignity of the individual, but rather as group interest and group conflict. Collectivist thinking rather than individualist thinking leads to laws and practices which are repressive to the individual, such as hate speech laws (which have expanded in the UK to the point where you can be arrested for making a joke or posting song lyrics, or in Canada to the point where Senators will defend compelled speech in a Senate hearing) which oppress the individual to protect a group from offense, or such as diversity quotas which unfairly discriminate in the individual to elevate the proportion of a demographic within a certain institution. This is antithetical to the liberal value upon which human rights and actual opposition to racism are based. A woman who was running for an important position in the DNC said "It's my job as a white person to shut other white people up," and the Labour party in the UK tried to hold an event where they charged white people more to attend.

Another such thing is lack of respect for the overarching societal structures, such as cultural standards and values and national identity. As has already been addressed, the cultural standard of meritocracy has been eroded and castigated as a form of white supremacy in favor of diversity quotas in both the private and public sector which necessitate identity based discrimination. As another example the cultural view of marriage and sex has been eroded, partially as a consequence of feminist critique of marriage as "an oppressive patriarchal structure" and partially as a side effect of the feminist and LGBT's sexual liberation which have had their benefits but at the same time have had some consequences in the form of sex being treated as a casual thing and the castigation of anyone who argues that you shouldn't sleep with someone you barely know as some oppressive authoritarian prude trying to "control women's bodies" and the rise of the single motherhood rate and all of the socioeconomic consequences of single motherhood is a consequence of this shift in cultural attitude towards sex and marriage. Another example more prominent in the rest of the west than in the US is the erosion of belief in the national culture and national identity in favor of "multiculturalism" which poses problems in its acceptance and defense of cultures which are antithetical to liberal values. This is largely because foreign cultures have been shifted into the same category as foreign race, so criticism of an outside culture is often conflated with racism, such as criticism of Islam being castigated as racism. In the UK the police were more hesitant to act against grooming gangs that were predominantly Muslim because they were afraid of being called racist, and in Canada people were arrested for hate speech for protesting a mosque... which they were protesting because the mosque in question was calling to Allah for the deaths of "those filthy Jews." And attempts in Europe for example at defending national values or promoting a national identity are castigated as "far-right" and racist. A society that castigates meritocracy as oppression is hurting itself economically and inculcating unfair discrimination on the basis of things other than merit. A society that doesn't respect the value of the family leads to more children being raised in broken homes. A society that refuses to defend its own culture leaves it weak to being undermined and exploited by inferior cultures.

And lastly our culture has been shifting towards an unhealthy attitude towards dialogue, by which a cultural movement is seeking a position of hegemonic control over the dialogue. One example is the redefinition of words or attempted alteration of terms referring to specific things, such as racism which academics have attempted through critical race theory to use to impugn all white people with a sort of collective guilt and all black people with collective innocence of racism. Other examples are euphemistic replacements of terms judged to be offensive such as "illegal immigrant" or "anchor baby" or "chain migration." This attempt to redefine the language of a political conversation in a loaded way and force society through societal pressure to accept these terms is to manipulate the conversation to a predetermined outcome rather than reach it through honest conversation. Additionally there is the attempt through victimhood status to shift identity from something firmly grounded in biological fact or social negotiation to being purely a self-defined whim that others must accept or else they are a bigot, a cultural movement suggesting that if you do not let a "non-binary person" dictate the words you must use or how you refer to them then you are a bigot.
More disturbingly there is an attempt being made to shrink the overton window of acceptable ideological discourse to prevent certain ideas from being challenged through a combination of governmental, educational, media, corporate, and social pressure. The most obvious example of this is the ever expanding reach of hate speech laws in the western world to the point where you can be prosecuted for making a joke or posting rap lyrics in the UK. Another example is the mainstream media's unfair castigation of those who disagree with modern progressivism as far-right or alt-right, such as the center-left individualist Sargon, or the somewhere in the center also individualist Jordan Peterson, or the accusation of Ben Shapiro the yamacha wearing Jew as being a part of the alt-right, in order to discredit their viewpoints with factually baseless ad hominems. Or shit even when someone such as Pewdiepie makes an obvious joke, the mainstream media tries to paint him as an antisemite to attack his source of revenue. Likewise, within the education system there is the promulgation of political ideology, such as the indoctrination of elementary schoolers into the social constructivist view of gender where it can be whatever you say it is, or teaching elementary schoolers that colorblindness and meritocracy are forms of white supremacy, or academics at universities promulgating critical race theory. On the corporate level this can be seen with Google instructing its employees that meritocracy is "white ideology" and excludes non-white people. On the governmental level, this can be seen in Canada's bill C-16 which wrote the indisputably factually incorrect claim that biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity vary independently of each other into Canadian law. It can also be seen by government media outlets pushing these political ideologies using taxpayer money, such as the BBC promoting a black transwoman saying that white people are the most destructive force of nature on the planet, or the Australian Broadcasting network trying to push left-wing political ideology on children through a children's show. And lastly the social pressure used to try and shrink the overton window is just ridiculous. Protesting speakers on college campuses has shifted from presenting a counterpointing viewpoint to attempts to either get them deplatformed or actively disrupting the event (sometimes with vandalism or violence) to prevent them from being able to speak. Likewise, this social pressure has risen to the extent where people who aren't even politically relevant are raked over the coals by social outrage for innocuous things, such as the football player who posts a picture of his daughter and her boyfriend with him jokingly holding a gun in what was an obvious dad joke, and he got pressured into apologizing by people outraged he would dare hold a gun or "treat his daughter like his property" or some shit.
All of this shit is not an honest attempt to promulgate ideological views through dialogue, but an attempt to promulgate ideological views through hegemonic dominance and the disenfranchising of those who hold contrary viewpoints.

All of this is not culturally healthy, it is the undermining of things foundational and essential to the western tradition.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In short

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
DMB, you might benefit from reading the things you weigh in on.


People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Emperordmb
I'll respond another time, I'm in too good of a mood right now

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0

https://i.imgflip.com/27z7yb.gif

Surtur
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Don't worry something tells me Rocky throws like a girl anyways.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I grew up in Austin Texas, that's not exactly right-wing territory my dude.

But in short, I think our culture has been shifting away from a few things.

One of such things is respect for the individual. Racism for example used to be opposed on more of an individualist basis, ie. you shouldn't judge someone or hold someone to different standards for your skin color you should judge them for the quality of their character, but now the culture has shifted into more tribal/identitarian/collectivist racial tensions where people are viewed essentially as classes with complicit guilt or innocence based on their identity with universities and ideologues promulgating the idea that "all white people are racist and you can't be racist if you're black." Corporations and education even now teach that things like "colorblindness" or meritocracy are forms of "white supremacy" or "white ideology." Identitarian tensions are much worse, and race is not approached as much from the presupposition of the dignity of the individual, but rather as group interest and group conflict. Collectivist thinking rather than individualist thinking leads to laws and practices which are repressive to the individual, such as hate speech laws (which have expanded in the UK to the point where you can be arrested for making a joke or posting song lyrics, or in Canada to the point where Senators will defend compelled speech in a Senate hearing) which oppress the individual to protect a group from offense, or such as diversity quotas which unfairly discriminate in the individual to elevate the proportion of a demographic within a certain institution. This is antithetical to the liberal value upon which human rights and actual opposition to racism are based. A woman who was running for an important position in the DNC said "It's my job as a white person to shut other white people up," and the Labour party in the UK tried to hold an event where they charged white people more to attend.

Another such thing is lack of respect for the overarching societal structures, such as cultural standards and values and national identity. As has already been addressed, the cultural standard of meritocracy has been eroded and castigated as a form of white supremacy in favor of diversity quotas in both the private and public sector which necessitate identity based discrimination. As another example the cultural view of marriage and sex has been eroded, partially as a consequence of feminist critique of marriage as "an oppressive patriarchal structure" and partially as a side effect of the feminist and LGBT's sexual liberation which have had their benefits but at the same time have had some consequences in the form of sex being treated as a casual thing and the castigation of anyone who argues that you shouldn't sleep with someone you barely know as some oppressive authoritarian prude trying to "control women's bodies" and the rise of the single motherhood rate and all of the socioeconomic consequences of single motherhood is a consequence of this shift in cultural attitude towards sex and marriage. Another example more prominent in the rest of the west than in the US is the erosion of belief in the national culture and national identity in favor of "multiculturalism" which poses problems in its acceptance and defense of cultures which are antithetical to liberal values. This is largely because foreign cultures have been shifted into the same category as foreign race, so criticism of an outside culture is often conflated with racism, such as criticism of Islam being castigated as racism. In the UK the police were more hesitant to act against grooming gangs that were predominantly Muslim because they were afraid of being called racist, and in Canada people were arrested for hate speech for protesting a mosque... which they were protesting because the mosque in question was calling to Allah for the deaths of "those filthy Jews." And attempts in Europe for example at defending national values or promoting a national identity are castigated as "far-right" and racist. A society that castigates meritocracy as oppression is hurting itself economically and inculcating unfair discrimination on the basis of things other than merit. A society that doesn't respect the value of the family leads to more children being raised in broken homes. A society that refuses to defend its own culture leaves it weak to being undermined and exploited by inferior cultures.

And lastly our culture has been shifting towards an unhealthy attitude towards dialogue, by which a cultural movement is seeking a position of hegemonic control over the dialogue. One example is the redefinition of words or attempted alteration of terms referring to specific things, such as racism which academics have attempted through critical race theory to use to impugn all white people with a sort of collective guilt and all black people with collective innocence of racism. Other examples are euphemistic replacements of terms judged to be offensive such as "illegal immigrant" or "anchor baby" or "chain migration." This attempt to redefine the language of a political conversation in a loaded way and force society through societal pressure to accept these terms is to manipulate the conversation to a predetermined outcome rather than reach it through honest conversation. Additionally there is the attempt through victimhood status to shift identity from something firmly grounded in biological fact or social negotiation to being purely a self-defined whim that others must accept or else they are a bigot, a cultural movement suggesting that if you do not let a "non-binary person" dictate the words you must use or how you refer to them then you are a bigot.
More disturbingly there is an attempt being made to shrink the overton window of acceptable ideological discourse to prevent certain ideas from being challenged through a combination of governmental, educational, media, corporate, and social pressure. The most obvious example of this is the ever expanding reach of hate speech laws in the western world to the point where you can be prosecuted for making a joke or posting rap lyrics in the UK. Another example is the mainstream media's unfair castigation of those who disagree with modern progressivism as far-right or alt-right, such as the center-left individualist Sargon, or the somewhere in the center also individualist Jordan Peterson, or the accusation of Ben Shapiro the yamacha wearing Jew as being a part of the alt-right, in order to discredit their viewpoints with factually baseless ad hominems. Or shit even when someone such as Pewdiepie makes an obvious joke, the mainstream media tries to paint him as an antisemite to attack his source of revenue. Likewise, within the education system there is the promulgation of political ideology, such as the indoctrination of elementary schoolers into the social constructivist view of gender where it can be whatever you say it is, or teaching elementary schoolers that colorblindness and meritocracy are forms of white supremacy, or academics at universities promulgating critical race theory. On the corporate level this can be seen with Google instructing its employees that meritocracy is "white ideology" and excludes non-white people. On the governmental level, this can be seen in Canada's bill C-16 which wrote the indisputably factually incorrect claim that biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity vary independently of each other into Canadian law. It can also be seen by government media outlets pushing these political ideologies using taxpayer money, such as the BBC promoting a black transwoman saying that white people are the most destructive force of nature on the planet, or the Australian Broadcasting network trying to push left-wing political ideology on children through a children's show. And lastly the social pressure used to try and shrink the overton window is just ridiculous. Protesting speakers on college campuses has shifted from presenting a counterpointing viewpoint to attempts to either get them deplatformed or actively disrupting the event (sometimes with vandalism or violence) to prevent them from being able to speak. Likewise, this social pressure has risen to the extent where people who aren't even politically relevant are raked over the coals by social outrage for innocuous things, such as the football player who posts a picture of his daughter and her boyfriend with him jokingly holding a gun in what was an obvious dad joke, and he got pressured into apologizing by people outraged he would dare hold a gun or "treat his daughter like his property" or some shit.
All of this shit is not an honest attempt to promulgate ideological views through dialogue, but an attempt to promulgate ideological views through hegemonic dominance and the disenfranchising of those who hold contrary viewpoints.

All of this is not culturally healthy, it is the undermining of things foundational and essential to the western tradition. Support your position with things like:


1. Suicide rates.
2. Mental health or the lack thereof.
3. Life satisfaction.
4. Socioeconomic Mobility.
5. Educational Attainment.
6. Home ownership.
7. Standard of living.


You can decry the moral decay of society and the destruction of the family unit all you want but if all measures of quality point to improvements, across the board, you're just a dumbass old man whining about the young people.


But, if you can prove that the moral decay and destruction of the family unit has direct and tangible negative impacts, why...you've got yourself a damn good point.

Digi
Originally posted by dadudemon
Support your position with things like:

1. Suicide rates.
2. Mental health or the lack thereof.
3. Life satisfaction.
4. Socioeconomic Mobility.
5. Educational Attainment.
6. Home ownership.
7. Standard of living.

You can decry the moral decay of society and the destruction of the family unit all you want but if all measures of quality point to improvements, across the board, you're just a dumbass old man whining about the young people.

But, if you can prove that the moral decay and destruction of the family unit has direct and tangible negative impacts, why...you've got yourself a damn good point.

thumb up

Empiricism trumps subjectivism most times, particularly on internet discussion boards as people trade half-researched hot takes. I tend to fall on the side of optimism. We have problems and new challenges, some as the result of progress we've made. But we also have the tools to improve them, and largely have improved global civilization in the last century.

The one caveat I'll throw into this discussion is that it's sorting of framing society as an arrow pointing one direction or another, which isn't quite accurate. The comments on the last page that mentioned some good racial aspects of the 1920's is a good example. It was undoubtedly worse on the whole for minorities, but not every variable was worse. We exist in a complex system that evolved out countless complex systems before it. Not every element is going to be linear, good or bad. And some elements will become worse in the next 10, 20, 50, 100 years as well, while others will improve. Hell, it could be argued that pre-2008 economic crash was actually a higher height by some of these metrics than 2018. But that's also a narrow view, historically speaking. We could cherry pick either if we had an agenda, but it takes a degree of humility to try to see things holistically (and empirically), knowing that even then we can only approximate an accurate opinion of society's progress or lack thereof.

Emperordmb

dadudemon

Emperordmb
Updated my post with an additional clarification

Robtard
DMB, you're WAYYYY to young to be going "this gone damn generation has no respect!" type or rants, that's for old farts like Putinbot and me.

Kurk
I used to hold DMB's attitudes, but I learned to simply not give a shit.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I found calc II relatively easy, but I'm not the most reliable source for that since I was one of the top 5 people in my class when I was taking it in high school.

Taking college math courses tends to be easier in high school too though, since the material is usually spread over two semesters rather than one.

I personally wouldn't recommend taking multiple math/science courses at once in your freshman year, Kurk, but it honestly depends on what you're shooting for.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Taking college math courses tends to be easier in high school too though, since the material is usually spread over two semesters rather than one.
Eh the way I took it it was two semesters of college calc over 1 year

Digi
Defining "culture" is a bit nebulous anyway. Like, for every rant about "millenials" (a useless term invented by marketers), there's another study showing they're no less hard-working or respectful in the workplace. Different than previous generations (move jobs more, more tech-savvy, etc.) but not better or worse. Social media amplifies some of this stuff, but even a lot of the public outcries over stuff (both the constructive type and the idiotic type) mirror a lot of what has happened in any generation.

So if we're not talking about things we can measure, I have a hard time believing we're discussing anything more than one person's perspective.

Surtur
So what does complaining about microaggressions or requiring a safe space from the likes of Christina Hoff Sommers mirror from the past? Genuinely curious. I'm curious about the scale as well. I'm sure in past generations we've had people triggered over some innocuous speaker merely because the speaker had views that opposed their own, but did we see it on the same scale as we are now?

dadudemon
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Taking college math courses tends to be easier in high school too though, since the material is usually spread over two semesters rather than one.

I personally wouldn't recommend taking multiple math/science courses at once in your freshman year, Kurk, but it honestly depends on what you're shooting for.

You're right about everything. But my experience with college was not like that. High School was much harder. College was...write this paper, research this, write this paper, read this book and write this paper, etc. Even the technology courses where it got very intense...still wasn't that much more difficult than the high school stuff.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by dadudemon
Support your position with things like:


1. Suicide rates.
2. Mental health or the lack thereof.
3. Life satisfaction.
4. Socioeconomic Mobility.
5. Educational Attainment.
6. Home ownership.
7. Standard of living.


You can decry the moral decay of society and the destruction of the family unit all you want but if all measures of quality point to improvements, across the board, you're just a dumbass old man whining about the young people.


But, if you can prove that the moral decay and destruction of the family unit has direct and tangible negative impacts, why...you've got yourself a damn good point.

The biggest decay, IMHO, is the evidence that the genetic component of IQ has decreased over the past century for a variety of reasons, particularly deleterious mutation load.

Robtard
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The biggest decay, IMHO, is the evidence that the genetic component of IQ has decreased over the past century for a variety of reasons, particularly deleterious mutation load.

Where was this measured? Genuinely curious as I can see it being true.

eg I used to have a much better memory when in 20's, used to have close to thirty phone and pager(yeah, dated myself) numbers memorized in my head and could recall anyone of them flawlessly. Now I'm lucky if I can remember two as the need to remember is no longer there or more to the point, replaced by a machine (my phone) that does it for me.

Flyattractor
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2016/02/idiocracy.jpg

Kurk
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The biggest decay, IMHO, is the evidence that the genetic component of IQ has decreased over the past century for a variety of reasons, particularly deleterious mutation load. Sounds about right. Just link me to a study.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by dadudemon
Support your position with things like:

1. Suicide rates.
2. Mental health or the lack thereof.
3. Life satisfaction.
4. Socioeconomic Mobility.
5. Educational Attainment.
6. Home ownership.
7. Standard of living.

You can decry the moral decay of society and the destruction of the family unit all you want but if all measures of quality point to improvements, across the board, you're just a dumbass old man whining about the young people.

But, if you can prove that the moral decay and destruction of the family unit has direct and tangible negative impacts, why...you've got yourself a damn good point.
Okay so a lot of the standards by which we also measure societal prosperity such as the ones just mentioned by you and the ones mentioned by Ellimist would be seriously positively impacted by economic growth, advancement of technology, and advancement of scientific knowledge, which are all things I don't dispute we've made advances in, and I wasn't disputing the overall advancement of society, merely it's advancement along the dimension of culture. Saying that society overall is better than it was last decade doesn't discredit the point I'm making since all of that is linked to areas nobody would dispute we've made progress in such as scientific knowledge, technology, and economic growth.

I'll touch upon the destruction of the family unit since you mentioned that one. The single motherhood rate has been rising in every community for a while now, and single motherhood is the largest predictor of inter-generational poverty, as well as being linked with a whole host of other things, such as violent crime, teenage pregnancy, homelessness, dropping out of school, etc. as well as having a higher likelihood of dealing with psychological problems.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/single_motherhood_worse_for_children_.html

I used this article specifically because as the opening sentence in the quote says the author and person who did the study are both in support of the shift in family structure, so what they are saying isn't exaggerated out of a bias against the changing family structure.

Here's another piece of information from the Brookings institute:
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/


So it's not only harmful for the children born out of wedlock, but bears consequences for those in their adult lives as well.

Also a lot of the things I mentioned are pretty self-evidently bad, such as:

Propagandizing children with political ideology, often with taxpayer money, which I've pointed out happens both in public elementary schools, and on children's shows on Public networks... so... propagandizing children and using taxpayer money to to it.

Practices such as diversity quotas which are inherently discriminatory on the basis of identity and operate not only in the private sector but in the public sector as well (ie. public universities), as well as the ideology that argues in favor of this being pushed on elementary school students and being entrenched in the corporate training of places such as Google. Not only does this unfairly discriminate against specific individuals on the basis of their identity, but the contempt for meritocracy as a "white male" ideology suggests that it is not good to solely focus on selecting the best candidate for a position (which any reasonable person would do).

The expanding repression of people's right to free speech in the rest of the west to which I've mentioned numerous examples that aren't even hate speech, such as Count Dankula, the girl who posted rap lyrics with the n-word, Canadian senators openly and virtually unanimously arguing in favor of compelled speech, Jordan Peterson being smeared as having an unacceptable opinion when he says the government shouldn't be able to compel citizens' speech, people getting arrested for protesting a mosque that was calling for the death of jews.. although even criminalizing hate speech is a grave moral injustice. I'd say the repression of human rights and support for such things among the populace is a pretty tangible negative thing.

Likewise the push for "multiculturalism" and the contempt with which people argue against national or cultural identity and this cultural force's impact are pretty self-evident in Europe with the migrant crisis, with the sexual assault spree in Germany on one new years day, the child grooming gangs in the UK (which authorities are more hesitant to act on for fear of being labeled racist), the rise of violent crime and antisemitism in certain areas, and the fact that if you criticize taking in this many migrants from such a culture at once and them not assimilating, you get smeared as a racist, and if you criticize Islam you get smeared as a racist and get death threats from a certain portion of the population.

Emperordmb
As for the decay of the dialogue... well... the government repression of free speech is already a pretty handy example of that, as well as views of free speech on college campuses, such as an alarming proportion of college students thinking use of disruption to prevent someone from speaking on college campuses, or even the use of violence, is acceptable (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2017/09/18/views-among-college-students-regarding-the-first-amendment-results-from-a-new-survey/) and we have seen numerous examples of this over the past few years with speakers that aren't even racists, I mean shit when half a million dollars is needed for security for Ben Shapiro to speak on a college campus clearly things have gone too far. It's pretty obvious that discourse in the west has decayed just from an observance of modern political polarization, once again free speech issues, the emergence of extremist movements such as antifa and the alt-right, the use of disruptive tactics by protesters against speakers they disagree with, several media outlets blatantly lying about people whose views are the antithesis of racism, that there has been a noticeable decay in our ability to have a dialogue or a common social fabric, and through conversation and discourse that we are able to reason as a society about profound issues, so this is not a very good thing at all.

Also just another thing I forgot to mention, the pushing of this gender constructivist ideology has lead to laws in some other countries (and IIRC even in some parts of the US though I could be mistaken) that require parents to allow and pay for the medical transitioning of their children if their children have gender dysphoria and want it, and this is a huge problem because it is the government imposing on parents that they must allow children to make decisions that could potentially permanently alter their body and that if they don't the government could remove their children from them, which is a little more disturbing considering like 80% of kids with gender dysphoria grow out of it.


The decay of marriage thing is something that I didn't really explain in my original post, but it seems like virtually everything else I mentioned is pretty self-evidently negative. Plus like I said I never said society as a whole were better and a lot of the metrics you mentioned or ellimist mentioned owe their advancements to scientific or economic progress rather than cultural progress.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
I'll take my chances.

Also, consider getting a house before judging the makeup of someone else's. What's your stance here exactly?

If you don't have one, you should refrain from derailing discussion.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Emperordmb
...

Here's another piece of information from the Brookings institute:
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/...e-middle-class/

...

You typed a lot and I disagree with just about everything.

If all markers of success, some of which are directly relevant to your point, have improved then you're point is simply wrong and you must learn to let go of factually incorrect ideas.

But this point in particular of yours is a very good one. It touches upon why I picked 1920 - SEM (socioeconomic mobility). Black people in 1920 had better SEM than they do now. Let me explain:

Consider x to be the MVS (minimum viable standard). MVS = high school education and middle class income job (similar to the link and article you pointed out). When black people were born in 1920, obtaining x was significantly more likely than now, even if they were born in x-1 or x-2 situations. They simply had a better chance to improve their situation. I am not saying that they do not now but it just does not happen as often as it did, then. Things like "Black Wall Street" were a thing. It existed. Black people were improving their SES at a remarkable rate. Let me tell you about Black Wall Street: better homes, education for the children, and luxuries than their white neighbors. Things like indoor plumbing were standard in their homes.

This lady, while very clearly writing from a bias, wrote a nice article on it:

http://www.ebony.com/black-history/the-destruction-of-black-wall-street-405


Pretty strange, right? Something like Black Wall Street EXISTED in 1920. That's what I mean by SEM. It's important. Much more often than now, they could be born into poverty and end up in a better place, socioeconomically.




WHY? Why is this? This is the important question. Part of it is as you have mentioned: the destruction of the family unit. This is also why conservatives talk about removing welfare: it forces people to start families and stay families (so their narrative goes). What happens if you can have your cake and eat it too? What happens if you implement a UBI system that allows single mothers to stay as single mothers if they want but also get a college education and a damn good job? Now you bring in SEM goodness AND you don't have to force couples to stay together by removing welfare. This isn't a pipe-dream or fanciful thinking: this is actually what happened in one such UBI program (already talked about it).


Anyway, yes, you're on to something. Black and Hispanic families are suffering from the destruction of the standard family unit. That much is true. It's affecting SEM and many other outcomes.



Let's get back onto your main point, however: those items I mentioned, cite your points. Prove your points based on that list I made (and those are not the only outcomes to consider). Your point CAN be proven. You can prove your point. It is not an opinion. These "degradation of culture" points you're making can have data to back up or prove you wrong. It would be quite easy to find data on mental health over time.


Why don't you do this? Why don't you make the effort to prove your point? You type a lot of words. You clearly put in a lot of time. Why didn't you prove your point with actual tangible data, though? This is what is bothering me about your point. Do you already know the answers and you know you're just plain wrong? I am not being combative. Tell me why you didn't make the effort and, instead, spent a long ass time typing out a huge double post? If I were you, I would have laid down the smack with some citations and ended my post with a smug "suck it" or something.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
DMB, you might benefit from reading the things you weigh in on.


Bruv, did you even bother to check what double d cited?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/08/us/trump-affirmative-action-president/index.html
^^^^^
I asked for headlines attacking Trump on the basis of race, Double D posted a headline disagreeing with Trump on the basis of policy. Whether or not you agree with the policy position the author takes, this is not the same as attacking someone on the basis of race.



Just saw this. You tried to sneak this through so no one would see it, eh?

What you're trying to do here is honest. What I said came from the article. They directly stated racist things about Trump. And you did not ask for a headline.

Damn, dude...you can't even make it a couple of posts with lying again. You suck.

Digi
Originally posted by Surtur
So what does complaining about microaggressions or requiring a safe space from the likes of Christina Hoff Sommers mirror from the past? Genuinely curious. I'm curious about the scale as well. I'm sure in past generations we've had people triggered over some innocuous speaker merely because the speaker had views that opposed their own, but did we see it on the same scale as we are now?

I think you answered your own question. "...did we see it...?" you wrote.

We didn't see it as much because their weren't people selling it to us. The answer is social media, clickbait, and 24-hour news, not anything markedly different in human behavior.

Take a look at this forum. "Stories to make you triggered." "In this thread is a photo that will make {X} angry." It's clickbait to raise your blood pressure, and you let it happen.

Meanwhile, there are literally millions of people ignoring those headlines and going about their lives, interacting with hundreds if not thousands of people who aren't SJWing their victim culture all over their Snapchats. Life is pretty f---ing normal when you aren't looking for reasons to be angry on the internet. And the social media obsessed teens and early 20-somethings perpetuating a lot of what you're talking about will grow up, some will remain ridiculous, but most will mature and tackle issues with more perspective, or learn to ignore it and will go about their lives.

There's a trend here, sure. The clever marketers selling this drivel to us have convinced enough people that it's important and widespread. But acting like it's a societal cancer is an eminent overreaction.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Digi
Take a look at this forum. "Stories to make you triggered." "In this thread is a photo that will make {X} angry." It's clickbait to raise your blood pressure, and you let it happen.

Sorry about that, yes, that thread was intended as click bait but they both know me and my positions quite well and it was more for us all 3 to have a laugh (somewhat at each other's expense) about it.

They know that I have quite a strong position (pro-transgenderism and in general, very pro-LGBT...really, it's just "let consenting adults do what they want with each other and to themselves"wink about this topic and we all 3 have argued about it. It was not intended to make blood boil or make people legit mad-bro. I would fully expect one of them to make a thread mocking delicious looking pizza or donuts because, clearly, I love those things.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just saw this. You tried to sneak this through so no one would see it, eh?

What you're trying to do here is honest. What I said came from the article. They directly stated racist things about Trump. And you did not ask for a headline.

Damn, dude...you can't even make it a couple of posts with lying again. You suck.
Alleging Trump is getting special treatment due to being white isn't racism. Try again.

Surtur
Originally posted by Digi
I think you answered your own question. "...did we see it...?" you wrote.

We didn't see it as much because their weren't people selling it to us. The answer is social media, clickbait, and 24-hour news, not anything markedly different in human behavior.

Take a look at this forum. "Stories to make you triggered." "In this thread is a photo that will make {X} angry." It's clickbait to raise your blood pressure, and you let it happen.

Meanwhile, there are literally millions of people ignoring those headlines and going about their lives, interacting with hundreds if not thousands of people who aren't SJWing their victim culture all over their Snapchats. Life is pretty f---ing normal when you aren't looking for reasons to be angry on the internet. And the social media obsessed teens and early 20-somethings perpetuating a lot of what you're talking about will grow up, some will remain ridiculous, but most will mature and tackle issues with more perspective, or learn to ignore it and will go about their lives.

There's a trend here, sure. The clever marketers selling this drivel to us have convinced enough people that it's important and widespread. But acting like it's a societal cancer is an eminent overreaction.

So essentially your argument is it happened, we just didn't see it cuz there was no social media, etc.

Which doesn't that work out to you not really having to provide any proof beyond just what you mentioned? It's neat, but it's not what I was looking for. If this stuff mirrors stuff in the past I'd be curious for some actual examples. Thanks in advance.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Alleging Trump is getting special treatment due to being white isn't racism. Try again.

Nice strawman. How about stick to the truth?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sure! But you'll never agree to it or acknowledge it's existence because it goes against your preconceived political notions.

Trump was elected only because he is white. Trump doesn't deserve the Oval Office and he's only in the Oval Office because he's white. Trump's dumb and couldn't think his way out of a wet paperbag.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/08/us/trump-affirmative-action-president/index.html


Try my simple test out: is it racist if you switch the race?

Obama was elected only because he is black. Obama doesn't deserve to be president and he only got elected because he's black. Obama's dumb and couldn't think his way out of a wet paperbag.

Well, shiiiit, sounds racist f*ck and this is the same shit people were saying about Obama AND people were calling it racist.

Hmmm...


HmmmmmmmmmMMMMMmMMMmMMMMMMMMMMmmm there Rockyboy. Hmmm. Hmmm indeeeeeeeed. peaches



Also...Trump was elected because he's white and Americans are racist.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/


And toe-head. And orange-skin. And rich-cracker.



So I shit on people for saying Obama was a Muslim-terrorist who was going to take all of our guns. Just the same as I shit on people for denying the anti-White racism against Trump. Here's the kicker: I don't CARE if people say Trump is shit because he's white. Or that Obama is a rapist because he's black. It's stupid and ignorant, for sure, but it does nothing to make me upset.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Surtur
So essentially your argument is it happened, we just didn't see it cuz there was no social media, etc.

Which doesn't that work out to you not really having to provide any proof beyond just what you mentioned? It's neat, but it's not what I was looking for. If this stuff mirrors stuff in the past I'd be curious for some actual examples. Thanks in advance.

It probably happened some, but I doubt it was anywhere near as common as it is now.

Surtur
Originally posted by dadudemon
Nice strawman. How about stick to the truth?

IMO, as of the present day, racism against whites in America is more socially acceptable than racism against any other race.

Rockydonovang
If I'm straw manning you, it's because you never bothered to cite which part of the article pertained to the point you were making.

And with that in mind, you still aren't telling me which parts of the article you're interpreting to say "Trump got elected because he was white".

Furthemore, you're citing the atlantic which isn't anywhere near as mainstream as fox news. All I've so far from the Atlantic are allegations Trump is racist. Allegations it supports with



I can't comment on the cnn article because when i clicked it it said

Quote on me on which part of the article was racist. And then show me this happening on a source comparably mainstream as fox news. If you can't do either, then this example you're citing is not equivalent to fox news' treatment of Obama.

Surtur
Originally posted by Silent Master
It probably happened some, but I doubt it was anywhere near as common as it is now.

That is what I think and it's why I take issue with the simplified logic of "every generation thought the previous one was bad!".

We see the failures of that. Past generations thought Dungeons and Dragons was evil. Then it was porn then video games. Oh and music at one time. We see in hindsight yeah those weren't the scares they were made out to be.

Yet this SJW shit...take a look at what is going on in Europe right now lol. It's not nothing. It's not an unfounded worry. This is not equivalent to people shaking their fist at some pot smoking teens and thinking the future is in trouble.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll take my chances.

Also, consider getting a house before judging the makeup of someone else's. What's your stance here exactly?

If you don't have one, you should refrain from derailing discussion.

My stance is that you are a hypocrite.

DarthSkywalker0
DDM, what UBI are you considering? Negative Income Tax or basic UBI?

Digi
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry about that, yes, that thread was intended as click bait but they both know me and my positions quite well and it was more for us all 3 to have a laugh (somewhat at each other's expense) about it.

They know that I have quite a strong position (pro-transgenderism and in general, very pro-LGBT...really, it's just "let consenting adults do what they want with each other and to themselves"wink about this topic and we all 3 have argued about it. It was not intended to make blood boil or make people legit mad-bro. I would fully expect one of them to make a thread mocking delicious looking pizza or donuts because, clearly, I love those things.

thumb up

Wasn't intended as a personal dig. It just helped to make my point. I could have chosen about 80% of the threads in this subforum these days. That just happened to be one that I remembered off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Surtur
So essentially your argument is it happened, we just didn't see it cuz there was no social media, etc.

Which doesn't that work out to you not really having to provide any proof beyond just what you mentioned? It's neat, but it's not what I was looking for. If this stuff mirrors stuff in the past I'd be curious for some actual examples. Thanks in advance.

People didn't get upset about trivial things?! My point isn't that we're only now just seeing it, my point is that your fixation has made you myopic. It's different issues in different eras, but the same tendencies.

Silent Master
I believe Surt's point is that he thinks it's happening more often these days and the times it does happen, more people are involved.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
If I'm straw manning you, it's because you never bothered to cite which part of the article pertained to the point you were making.

And with that in mind, you still aren't telling me which parts of the article you're interpreting to say "Trump got elected because he was white".

Furthemore, you're citing the atlantic which isn't anywhere near as mainstream as fox news. All I've so far from the Atlantic are allegations Trump is racist. Allegations it supports with



I can't comment on the cnn article because when i clicked it it said

Quote on me on which part of the article was racist. And then show me this happening on a source comparably mainstream as fox news. If you can't do either, then this example you're citing is not equivalent to fox news' treatment of Obama.

Well, if you weren't pretending to be ignorant, the points I literally paraphrased straight from the first few paragraphs of the article on CNN should have been your first clue.


If you were any good at this adult talking stuff, you'd abandon this clearly dishonest path you're taking to try and futility discredit my point that, yes, CNN really really did post some shit that would be racist as f*ck if it was about Obama (and people did say the same things about Obama and it was called racist, then).


Here's the only correct path you could have taken to try and debate against my point:

That was an opinion piece by CNN and does not reflect CNN's official opinion on President Trump. That would be correct.





Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
DDM, what UBI are you considering? Negative Income Tax or basic UBI?

Neither.

Fair Tax but where each household starts the year with a credit. For example, 4 family household starts the year with...I don't know...$26,700 in a tax credit. They are literally give a check for that. It's supposed to be based off of the FPL which I don't know the numbers directly off the top of my head. Then the beginning of the year tax credit is calculated by a coefficent of the FPL (something like 2x or 3x). This credit is being called a "rebate."

http://commonprogress.blogspot.com/2015/01/fair-tax-and-negative-income-tax.html


Want to start a thread and debate/discuss NIT, UBI, and FT?

Surtur
Originally posted by Digi
thumb up

Wasn't intended as a personal dig. It just helped to make my point. I could have chosen about 80% of the threads in this subforum these days. That just happened to be one that I remembered off the top of my head.



People didn't get upset about trivial things?! My point isn't that we're only now just seeing it, my point is that your fixation has made you myopic. It's different issues in different eras, but the same tendencies.

You're not going to provide anything that mirrors what is going on today. I get it. Moving on. Since nobody said people didn't upset about trivial things. Nobody. This is the scale and the LEVEL of outrage.

3 day leadership conference cancelled cuz students saw a banana peel in a tree.

Surtur
Originally posted by Silent Master
I believe Surt's point is that he thinks it's happening more often these days and the times it does happen, more people are involved.

I am curious what Digi feels in the past mirrored cry closests:

College Installs "Cry Closet" As Safe Space For Student Snowflakes

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.