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Keep in mind that it has passed some time after I have read these comics

1. When Wyyrlook III betrayed Krayt - did he kill Krayt or Krayt just fell into a coma?

However, his presence could not be felt by any darksider on Korriban.

So, if Krayt died - didn't he enter the Chaos Dimension and escaped it after some time?

2. Let's talk about Dark transfer for a second

Is this technique a combination of Force lightning + Shatterpoint?

If the Dark transfer users can use this ability to prevent people from dying = don't they defy the will of the Force and influencing the midi-chlorians = midi-chlorian manipulation?



3. Did Krayt indirectly learn Dark transfer from Karness Muur?

no, no, and no

Really, Palpatine? No argument to counter it?

1. Krayt drove a tiny part of his essence inside his body and healed it gradually. So yes, dead.

2.It's not Force lightning. It's Force Healing combined with Shatterpoint.

3. Apparently.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. When Wyyrlook III betrayed Krayt - did he kill Krayt or Krayt just fell into a coma?

It's not really clear, but if Krayt's word is to be believed, then he actually died. Even then, I don't really think he could traverse chaos; he just buried his spirit deep into his body, and slowly healed it with DT until he could use it again.



No, the lightning visual is only there to indicate that it's a dark side ability. As I recall, when Cade managed to use it without drawing on his darkness, the appearance was different.



No, it just mends wounds and kills sickness. It's not capable of something like reprogramming the body to stop aging like midichlorian manipulation could.



Possibly. If nothing else, it was because he experienced Muur's healing power that he was able to grasp the basic principle behind DT, and then used his knowledge from Cade to fully achieve it (since he also credited Cade as the reason he was able to master it.)

The principle difference between midi-chlorian manipulation and dark transfer is that dark transfer requires abilities based in energy and the Force, whereas midi-chlorian manipulation is just the manipulation of midi-chlorians.

Originally posted by ILS
1. Krayt drove a tiny part of his essence inside his body and healed it gradually. So yes, dead.

2.It's not Force lightning. It's Force Healing combined with Shatterpoint.

3. Apparently.

1. If we take Krayt's words he died
2. FMK, I thought Force healing was a light side ability
3. I guess.

Originally posted by Zentrex
The principle difference between midi-chlorian manipulation and dark transfer is that dark transfer requires abilities based in energy and the Force, whereas midi-chlorian manipulation is just the manipulation of midi-chlorians.

Doesn't the properties of midi-chlorians change when someone is on the verge of death?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Doesn't the properties of midi-chlorians change when someone is on the verge of death?

If that's been said anywhere, then I don't know about it. But dark transfer doesn't effect the midi-chlorians directly, so it's not midi-chlorian manipulation. And you can't create life with it, or increase your count, yada yada yada.

But Qui-Gon said that life without midi-chlorians couldn't be possible.

Well, that was disproven by Meetra Surik during the Battle of Malachor. She disconnected herself from the Force and continued to survive. The Jedi believed that life couldn't exist without the living force, but it's actually the other way around. And there are many creatures which can resist the Force, and those creatures are all living. So, midi-chlorians aren't necesary for life. On earth, no one has midi-chlorians, but we're all still alive.

And manipulating cells is not the same as specifically manipulating force-connected entities. Midi-chlorians are force entities. Dark Transfer manipulates shatterpoints, which are not force entities.

But her access was cut - she still had midi-chlorians. And she was passively leeching off people's lives.

But the midi-chlorians weren't interracting with her, so it's basically the same as if she didn't have any. But still, dark transfer is not midi-chlorians manipulation.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Well, that was disproven by Meetra Surik during the Battle of Malachor. She disconnected herself from the Force and continued to survive. The Jedi believed that life couldn't exist without the living force, but it's actually the other way around. And there are many creatures which can resist the Force, and those creatures are all living. So, midi-chlorians aren't necesary for life. On earth, no one has midi-chlorians, but we're all still alive.

Read Traitor.

If you're talking about Vergere's use of Sever Force on Darth Caedus and his realization that the Yuuzhan Vong were connected to the Force in a way that the Jedi couldn't sense, meaning that they weren't really DISconnected from the force, then I know about it.

And while Jacen may have believed that all life must be connected to the Force, there are ways to sever the Force completely, the way Meetra Surik did. And once again, I give you the example of creatures who were immune/resistant to the Force.

1. The Wounds in the Force can still be sensed in the Force - but as 'cold presences'
2. Though they are wounded - they are able to 'charge up' their midi-chlorians by leeching off people's lifeforce and Force energy.
3. Force-resistant creatures are still blessed with the Force. They are just naturally resistant - it's like a Force-user would use a passive Force power to resist Force attacks.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not really clear, but if Krayt's word is to be believed, then he actually died. Even then, I don't really think he could traverse chaos; he just buried his spirit deep into his body, and slowly healed it with DT until he could use it again.

Why not?
There are several sources that state Sidious went in Hell and came back. Though, they may have been retconned.




Can you post a scan?



Why not? I, mean, Krayt was able to fully heal his Mustafar'd body. And we know that darksiders need to perform Life-drain to heal themselves because Force heal is a passive light side abilility. And even Force heal actually just accelerates the natural healing process rapidly. So, in no way could Force heal be compared to Dark transfer in terms of healing.

We also know that aging is just the expression of pure entropy. If Krayt could fully regenerate his body from his 'Mustafar' injures; then he can keep himself alive too by using Dark transfer - since he would just push entropy away.




Well - it means Muur had a similar ability, then.

Originally posted by ILS
1. Krayt drove a tiny part of his essence inside his body and healed it gradually. So yes, dead.

2.It's not Force lightning. It's Force Healing combined with Shatterpoint.

3. Apparently.

1. Given his presence was no longer felt on Korriban. I would say he was dead for good and returned(from Chaos) to fix himself up.
2. Darksiders cannot use Force healing.
3. Ok.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. The Wounds in the Force can still be sensed in the Force - but as 'cold presences'
2. Though they are wounded - they are able to 'charge up' their midi-chlorians by leeching off people's lifeforce and Force energy.
3. Force-resistant creatures are still blessed with the Force. They are just naturally resistant - it's like a Force-user would use a passive Force power to resist Force attacks.

I think that the only reason they're felt is because there's this strange LACK of force energy there. And they can exist without that.

I don't know what "charging up" your midi-chlorians is from. I'm not entirely familiar with this, so I don't know exactly what this is about.

Those creatures create a bubble around them which doesn't let the Force have any effect in a bubble around them. That means they exist separately from the Force.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I think that the only reason they're felt is because there's this strange LACK of force energy there. And they can exist without that.

I don't know what "charging up" your midi-chlorians is from. I'm not entirely familiar with this, so I don't know exactly what this is about.

Those creatures create a bubble around them which doesn't let the Force have any effect in a bubble around them. That means they exist separately from the Force.

1. That's because they are Force accumulators, not conductors. They absorb Force energy and lifeforce.
2. I meant that the only reason their midi-chlorians are 'alive is due to the fact that these Wounds absorb lifeforce from outer sources.
3. No. Ysalamiri do not actually negate the Force; since all existence is infused with Force energy. Rather, they project a bubble inside which users were unable to exert any influence over the Force.

Basically it's like an anti-Force power field.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. That's because they are Force accumulators, not conductors. They absorb Force energy and lifeforce.
2. I meant that the only reason their midi-chlorians are 'alive is due to the fact that these Wounds absorb lifeforce from outer sources.
3. No. Ysalamiri do not actually negate the Force; since all existence is infused with Force energy. Rather, they project a bubble inside which users were unable to exert any influence over the Force.

Basically it's like an anti-Force power field.

1. Yeah, but the Force they're absorbing isn't going INTO them, or supporting them. It's like saying a black hole is supported by all the stuff that goes into it. No, it's just sucking it all. It's nothing. It's made of nothing, and needs nothing. And I trust you're not going to get all technical with this imperfect analogy and start talking about Hawking radiation.
2. Well, in that case, see bullet point 1
3. If the influence of the Force does not exist around them, then the Force can't influence their midi-chlorians, can it? It can't influence their life. They must exist without the Force, if the Force can't impact them.

1. Well, it also depends of the user's 'Woundness'. The Dark Side does indeed play a part at intensifying it. And the only reason why that happens is due to the fact that these Wounds expend the energy they steal to increase/keep their life force or power in the Force. However - we did see that prolonged use of Force drain does indeed lead to a vampiric appetite( e.g: Vitiate) even if the user is not a Wound in the Force.

2. See point 1

3. So? A Force sensitive scientist can build anti-Force power devices(which would be similar to a Ysalmiri). Users can cut each other from the Force. Not really that hard to see.

Did you just admit that life could exist without the Force?

If the only reason wounds in the Force suck in the Force is to be force sensitives and could live without it, then life can exist without the Force. And if users can cut each other from the Force completely, then life can exist without the Force.

So, if life can indeed exist without midi-chlorians, one can use the Force to heal life, without having to manipulate the soul of that person or their midi-chlorians. Thus, bringing them back from the dead without using midi-chlorians manipulation. Thus, dark transfer is simply shatterpoint + Force lightning/heal. NOT midi-chlorians manipulation.

So you've read, or at least read of, Traitor, Zentrex. Good job. The next step is to synthesize and apply the concepts you mentioned earlier to other material.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

There are several sources that state Sidious went in Hell and came back.

Yes, but if Krayt had the ability to do so, he wouldn't have stayed dead when Cade incinerated his body. Since he did, I can only assume that traversing chaos is beyond Krayt's ability.




https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/17/76/23/63/screen11.jpg
https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/17/76/23/63/screen12.jpg



Because that's not how it's stated to work, schutta.



Muur didn't need to perform life drain to heal Krayt.



Indeed.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Since he did, I can only assume that traversing chaos is beyond Krayt's ability.
Yet not Marr's.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So you've read, or at least read of, Traitor, Zentrex. Good job. The next step is to synthesize and apply the concepts you mentioned earlier to other material.

So I'm guessing you're criticizing my analysis of "sever force" and life without midi-chlorians. I'm still not sure what you're suggesting, much less what your argument for that suggestion is.

Zentrex, NewGuy1 fears your rise to power. I doubt he's ever even read Traitor. Crush him and prove yourself.

Go home Ant, you're drunk.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet not Marr's.

Didn't he bullshit his way into being a legitimate force ghost or something, though? Then again, BioWare doesn't seem to know the difference between force ghosts and sith spirits.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Did you just admit that life could exist without the Force?

If the only reason wounds in the Force suck in the Force is to be force sensitives and could live without it, then life can exist without the Force. And if users can cut each other from the Force completely, then life can exist without the Force.

So, if life can indeed exist without midi-chlorians, one can use the Force to heal life, without having to manipulate the soul of that person or their midi-chlorians. Thus, bringing them back from the dead without using midi-chlorians manipulation. Thus, dark transfer is simply shatterpoint + Force lightning/heal. NOT midi-chlorians manipulation.

But Ulic later restores his bond with the Force in the Redemption arc.
They are not really without the Force. They are just rendered as non-sensitive individuals.
I don't know how to say it:
Think of the Force and Force powers like this:

The Force=the powersource
The Force abilities=the thing you use to shoot from the powersource.
Now - what Ysalmiri and Sever Force do is to prevent/disable your ability to attack or defend yourself with the Force. That's all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, but if Krayt had the ability to do so, he wouldn't have stayed dead when Cade incinerated his body. Since he did, I can only assume that traversing chaos is beyond Krayt's ability.

The same can be said by Palpatine. He died during Return of the Jedi. Also he isn't present anymore after Dark Empire. Is he?
I know about Brand and the Empire's End ending. But we haven't seen any Jedi there. Therefore, it was just a figure of speech.






The lightning is still there as far as I can see.




Really now?





He didn't heal Krayt, though. Also, if we talk about Dark transfer. Then, technically this is a power defying the will of the Force. And we know that the 'will' of the Force are the midi-chlorians.





Indeed that it may be right that not only Plagueis could influence the midi-chlorians.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
But Ulic later restores his bond with the Force in the Redemption arc.
They are not really without the Force. They are just rendered as non-sensitive individuals.
I don't know how to say it:
Think of the Force and Force powers like this:

The Force=the powersource
The Force abilities=the thing you use to shoot from the powersource.
Now - what Ysalmiri and Sever Force do is to prevent/disable your ability to attack or defend yourself with the Force. That's all.

Well then manipulating life can be separate from manipulating midi-chlorians.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Well then manipulating life can be separate from manipulating midi-chlorians.

You would be technically correct. But one of Cade's masters said that his action was influencing the will of the Force. And we know that the will is communicated through the midi-chlorians.

Do we? How? I thought the midi-chlorians were like kybercrystals or just things which connected the force and the physical world, except connected to living beings, so allowing them to use the Force.

Didn't Jinn say that's the midi-chlorians' job? Isn't what/how Plagueis' power worked?

I thought the will of the Force was a paradox which would come to fruition no matter what, though it needed a conscious soul to make it happen.

I've always interpreted the will of the Force as the basic goal/nature of all life (i.e. balance, harmony, peace, yada yada yada) whereas the dark side was the defiance of that for human desire. That's why Yoda said you must let go of your desire, yes?

If midi-chlorians are anything beyond living kybercrystals inside people's bodies, then you'd have to show me where it says that, because I could be wrong.

And Dark transfer does exactly what you just said. It defies the will of the Force like midi-chlorian manipulation.

As about kyber crystals. I thought it was established that they are only permeated by the Cosmic Force, not the Living Force. And who knows, maybe non-biological things also have their own version of "midi-chlorians".

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The same can be said by Palpatine. He died during Return of the Jedi. Also he isn't present anymore after Dark Empire. Is he?
I know about Brand and the Empire's End ending. But we haven't seen any Jedi there. Therefore, it was just a figure of speech.






The lightning is still there as far as I can see.




Really now?





He didn't heal Krayt, though. Also, if we talk about Dark transfer. Then, technically this is a power defying the will of the Force. And we know that the 'will' of the Force are the midi-chlorians.





Indeed that it may be right that not only Plagueis could influence the midi-chlorians. how did you manage to say only wrong things

Originally posted by ILS
how did you manage to say only wrong things
How did you expect him not too.

Originally posted by ILS
how did you manage to say only wrong things

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And Dark transfer does exactly what you just said. It defies the will of the Force like midi-chlorian manipulation.

As about kyber crystals. I thought it was established that they are only permeated by the Cosmic Force, not the Living Force. And who knows, maybe non-biological things also have their own version of "midi-chlorians".

But...lots of things defy the will of the Force. Anakin turned to the dark side, Sidious came back from the dead, Tenebrous' master opened up a rend in the Force. Doesn't mean they did it specifically by manipulating midi-chlorians.

Originally posted by ILS
how did you manage to say only wrong things

There is nothing wrong with my post.

Dark transfer is a technique defying the will of The Force. It may not be direct midi-chlorian manipulation. However, your actions do indirectly defy its will. Therefore, we can call it:

Inferior midi-chlorian manipulation. Unlike Plagueis who delved even deeper into the study of The Force.

Originally posted by Zentrex
But...lots of things defy the will of the Force. Anakin turned to the dark side, Sidious came back from the dead, Tenebrous' master opened up a rend in the Force. Doesn't mean they did it specifically by manipulating midi-chlorians.

Not directly. But indirectly. Because we witness characters who possess the power to influence the spiritual/metaphysical/energetic aspects of the universe.