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Erik is depowered as of the Ritual fight
H2H only

Kingpin. Black Panthers are impressive due to the Heart shaped herb. They're still good without but Kingpin is a different beast. He gives DD all he can handle and honestly without DD's suit he gets ****ed up. Some of the hits to the face and body Kingpin deliverd on DD would have probably ko'd him without his upgraded suit. Also, he wrekt Frank Castle pretty easily (I mean, he was chained up...not really fair). Point is, without the heart shaped herb Killmonger doesn't have what it takes to ko Kingpin.

Without the herb T'Challa took down M'Baku who would toss Kingpin around like a child.

Originally posted by KingD19
Without the herb T'Challa took down M'Baku who would toss Kingpin around like a child. Nope. Kingpin has enough strength to decapitate a persons skull from their body (using a door, but still). That is immense strength. We also see him benching I believe at least 400lbs. (have to watch DD season 2 again) .

He doesn't go down easy and it took someone trained in Martial arts from the time he was a child (I.e a master) with super human senses and heightened reflexes to beat him. Kingpin wins.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Nope. Kingpin has enough strength to decapitate a persons skull from their body (using a door, but still). That is immense strength. We also see him benching I believe at least 400lbs. (have to watch DD season 2 again) .

He doesn't go down easy and it took someone trained in Martial arts from the time he was a child (I.e a master) with super human senses and heightened reflexes to beat him. Kingpin wins.

Okay? Nothing you've stated is anywhere near M'Baku's strength.

Did you watch Panther? How he bent down and picked up a Border Tribe soldier by the neck, stood up, then easily threw him at least 10 feet over his back with one hand.

Or when he used his war club to send people literally flying?

Or in Infinity War when he was taking down plenty of Thanos' foot soldiers with again, a wooden war club.

Even without the Herb T'Challa took him down with technique, speed, and skill. Something Killmonger has in spades considering he took on T'Challa fair and square and used his almost literal lifetime of training to take him down.

Originally posted by KingD19
Okay? Nothing you've stated is anywhere near M'Baku's strength.

Did you watch Panther? How he bent down and picked up a Border Tribe soldier by the neck, stood up, then easily threw him at least 10 feet over his back with one hand.

Or when he used his war club to send people literally flying?

Or in Infinity War when he was taking down plenty of Thanos' foot soldiers with again, a wooden war club.

Even without the Herb T'Challa took him down with technique, speed, and skill. Something Killmonger has in spades considering he took on T'Challa fair and square and used his almost literal lifetime of training to take him down. Those are nice feats, but not more impressive than some of the stuff KP has done. Also Kingpin doesn't need a weapon to beat the shit out of stuff with..he uses his bare hands. 'Nuff said.

And again, he got taken down by a good fighter (T'challa) but not a great one (Daredevil). If he had beaten T'challa WITHOUT the debuff then I'd give him the edge. As it stands I go with KP.

Also, this has NOTHING to do with M'Baku. This is between Killmonger (debuffed) vs Kingpin. You can't use abc fight logic as Killmonger never fought M'baku anyway. Also, T'challa barely beat M'baku.

Kingpin wins.


Fighters in real life are kind of like rocks/paper/scissors. It's why boxers and ufc fighters sometimes have 1 guy that gives them a loss that doesn't beat anyone else....In other words, you can't assume that Killmonger would beat M'baku in a fight.

Do you realize the strength needed to throw a fully grown man behind you over your head? More than Kingpin showed as any time he tossed Matt around, he didn't go too far. M'Baku sent a guy flying. Using his club, he also sent people flying 10-15 feet away. That's more impressive than Kingpin period.

Originally posted by KingD19
Do you realize the strength needed to throw a fully grown man behind you over your head? More than Kingpin showed as any time he tossed Matt around, he didn't go too far. M'Baku sent a guy flying. Using his club, he also sent people flying 10-15 feet away. That's more impressive than Kingpin period. Read my previous posts all the way through. And I disagree with that sentiment anyway.

This is a good thread.

It's worth noting that non amped BP beat M'Baku through skill and agility. He didn't match him in strength. Killmonger beat BP through skill and ferocity too. Both of these fights had the individuals armed with shields and weapons too. Neither of these are a factor here since it's a hand to hand fight, and a hand to hand fight with a stronger opponent who's fought people more skilled than you is a bad place to be.

It's also worth noting that DDs first fight with Kingpin took place right after DD spent a few minutes being beat by Nobu.

Still, IMO beating someone like DD in a H2H fight is more impressive than beating a depowered T'Challa when you're armed. Yeah, DD was weakened, but even weakened he's more of a force to be reckoned with than a depowered BP. Like it's been mentioned, DD has been trained since childhood to be a martial arts master and has super human senses on top of heightened reflexes (and some insane damage soak). He's a flat out super human who's taken on scores of armed men with nothing but his fists and clubs. I can't see a depowered T'Challa pulling off that kind of stuff.

EDIT: I just rewatched the final fight he had with DD. Kingpin beat the holy crap out of him and the only reason DD ended up winning was his armor. A showing like that against a fully functional and billy club armed DD with armor gives Kingpin the solid win here.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
This is a good thread.
EDIT: I just rewatched the final fight he had with DD. Kingpin beat the holy crap out of him and the only reason DD ended up winning was his armor. A showing like that against a fully functional and billy club armed DD with armor gives Kingpin the solid win here.

Yep

I have to go with Kilmonger. DD in S1 wasn't really all that great yet. He was fast and he was skilled but he didn't hit hard. Normally he needed multiple hits against regular goons to take them out. It also didn't help that DD fought Kingpin in close confines where he couldn't utilize his speed and acrobatics to full effect. Add to that the fact that Kingpin fought DD when DD had barely healed from his injuries... and I'd have to give it to Kilmonger, as long as he has enough space to move.

Kilmonger was fast, skilled, ruthless... and hit harder than S1 DD. That said, it's not going to be an easy fight.

Season 1 DD was fine. By the end he was near the top of his game, and that's when he fought Fisk on the streets. As Arachnid said the ONLY reason DD even won is because he upgraded his armor to the point it can take knifes and bullets to some extent. Fisk beat the absolute shit out of him and almost won. Neither T'challa or Killmonger in their DEBUFFED state are going to be as fast or as deadly in melee than DD was at the end of Season 1.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Season 1 DD was fine. By the end he was near the top of his game, and that's when he fought Fisk on the streets. As Arachnid said the ONLY reason DD even won is because he upgraded his armor to the point it can take knifes and bullets to some extent. Fisk beat the absolute shit out of him and almost won. Neither T'challa or Killmonger in their DEBUFFED state are going to be as fast or as deadly in melee than DD was at the end of Season 1.

The dude had just gotten beat up to within an inch of his life shortly before that fight. No way he would have ever been at 100% in that fight. Also in S1, again, DD needed multiple hits to take out street thugs. Compare that to other high end fighters like Black Widow or Ward or Daisy, and they normally dispatch random thugs with a hit or two.

S2 DD was like that, especially in Defenders, but not in S1.

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I don't know what the phuck you guys are talking about. Fisk was largely getting dominated by DD in h2h. DD must have landed something like four to five times more blows than Fisk did, and he was getting rocked by those blows. Fisk only turned the tables around when, while getting his bootyhole blasted by Matt, he grabbed a steel pipe and swung it at his skull. If weapon feats don't count for Killmonger, should they for Fisk?

Originally posted by NemeBro
UEmjRNHKefY

I don't know what the phuck you guys are talking about. Fisk was largely getting dominated by DD in h2h. DD must have landed something like four to five times more blows than Fisk did, and he was getting rocked by those blows. Fisk only turned the tables around when, while getting his bootyhole blasted by Matt, he grabbed a steel pipe and swung it at his skull. If weapon feats don't count for Killmonger, should they for Fisk? Daredevil would have lost without his suit. Your video only further solidifies that. Fisk was picking him up and slamming him into walls and throwing him onto the ground. ALSO, Daredevil has MUCH, MUCH higher damage soak than T'challa has. Again, if you let Killmonger have his power and/or suit then he wins. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about un-amped Killmonger vs Kingpin so Kingpin wins.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Daredevil would have lost without his suit. Your video only further solidifies that. Fisk was picking him up and slamming him into walls and throwing him onto the ground. ALSO, Daredevil has MUCH, MUCH higher damage soak than T'challa has. Again, if you let Killmonger have his power and/or suit then he wins. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about un-amped Killmonger vs Kingpin so Kingpin wins. But Kingpin doesn't get any weapons. Without weapons he was being tooled by Daredevil. He's an average fighter at best and not particularly fast. I haven't seen BP yet so I'm not commenting on the outcome of the fight, but pretending that Fisk "beat the absolute shit out of DD" is bullshit, especially when you consider that he only really clinched an advantage when he blindsided Matt with a weapon. In fisticuffs he was firmly inferior to Matt.

Originally posted by NemeBro
But Kingpin doesn't get any weapons. Without weapons he was being tooled by Daredevil. He's an average fighter at best and not particularly fast. I haven't seen BP yet so I'm not commenting on the outcome of the fight, but pretending that Fisk "beat the absolute shit out of DD" is bullshit, especially when you consider that he only really clinched an advantage when he blindsided Matt with a weapon. In fisticuffs he was firmly inferior to Matt. No he wasnt. He was getting hit a lot yes, but he was also dishing it out. And the damage he took before grabbing the pipe wasn't much at all. Before he grabbed the pipe he'd slammed DD into 2 walls and tossed him to the ground. Also, if we're just judging the fight the ONLY REASON Daredevil didn't lose was because he had his suit. He was blocking FIsks attacks from the pipe with his arms. His arms had metal in the suit and were blocking the bone breaking damage that would have been dished out to him without it. The point is, without the suit DD loses. And DD is a better fighter than T'challa AND has MUCH, MUCH higher damage soak.

T'challa with the herb and/or his suit however beats DD and Kingpin. But this is not about BP, it's about a DEBUFFED Killmonger and neither him or Kingpin get weapons. My money is on Kingpin.

People who are arguing both that Fisk would have beaten Matt without his suit and that end of S1 Matt is comparable to Defenders Matt... Just how? Do you actually believe Fisk is comparable to Black Sky Elektra, considering Matt was able to give her a decent fight, and take some of her super strong hits, before she'd discovered his identity, and without any of his gear?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
People who are arguing both that Fisk would have beaten Matt without his suit and that end of S1 Matt is comparable to Defenders Matt... Just how? Do you actually believe Fisk is comparable to Black Sky Elektra, considering Matt was able to give her a decent fight, and take some of her super strong hits, before she'd discovered his identity, and without any of his gear?

Defenders DD would have beaten the crap out of S1 DD.

Fisk is returning for DD s3. So, he will likely get an amp in order to be a threat to current Daredevil. After all, we see in s2 that his time in prison wasn't spent idle (everything from working out to getting some H2H practice in to gathering information about possible allies and threats). However, until then, we can't scale him off current Daredevil, who himself, by feats, has improved in all areas since their last encounter.

Originally posted by NemeBro
UEmjRNHKefY

I don't know what the phuck you guys are talking about. Fisk was largely getting dominated by DD in h2h. DD must have landed something like four to five times more blows than Fisk did, and he was getting rocked by those blows. Fisk only turned the tables around when, while getting his bootyhole blasted by Matt, he grabbed a steel pipe and swung it at his skull. If weapon feats don't count for Killmonger, should they for Fisk? Yeah he did use the steel pipe for a short stretch but he also took way more hits from DDs metal billy clubs and those have KOed plenty of people with a singe hit. Plus, that same mask KP hit managed to absorb the impact from a bullet point blank (though DD did get a concussion) so it's not like DD look the full impact of it directly to his skull, unlike KP did multiple times. There's also the fact that DDs fists are now armored like the rest of his body and Kingpin took hits from those like a champ.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
People who are arguing both that Fisk would have beaten Matt without his suit and that end of S1 Matt is comparable to Defenders Matt... Just how? Do you actually believe Fisk is comparable to Black Sky Elektra, considering Matt was able to give her a decent fight, and take some of her super strong hits, before she'd discovered his identity, and without any of his gear? As far as I can tell, no one is using Defenders DD feats. I've been keeping to season 1 DD anyways.

Thing is, even season 1 DD had great showings against other characters like Nobu, and Kingpin did pretty good with against him. I just don't think a non amped Killmonger would be able to do as well. He's no DD, and we have no real unarmed feats with him. If he had a sword against KP? Sure. But without? If Kingpin gets his hands on him and does a few of those slams he did to DD (which hurt DD, a guy with ridiculous damage soak even in season 1, through armor), I don't see a mostly featless unamped Killmonger recovering. The guy never took hits from someone like KP as a normal man and when KP gets his hands on him, he's done.

Basically my stance is this:

1. Depowered Killmonger without suit loses.
2. Depowered Killmonger with suit probably wins.
3. Powered Killmonger with suit stomps.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
Basically my stance is this:

1. Depowered Killmonger without suit loses.
2. Depowered Killmonger with suit probably wins.
3. Powered Killmonger with suit stomps. Agreed.

Matt was getting shit-canned in his S1 fight with Nobu IMO, though it does show how ridiculously high his damage soak is, even without his suit.

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Considering this still happened afterwards:

3OAxi4CZPOk

Yep, Nobu was a badass. RIP

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Matt was getting shit-canned in his S1 fight with Nobu IMO, though it does show how ridiculously high his damage soak is, even without his suit.

Considering this still happened afterwards:


You're right, I remember DD doing much better against Nobu for some reason. He got 6-7 hits max in that entire fight where as Nobu was far into the double digits. He was still impressive at points, but he did get whooped (though KM wouldn't have done half as well as he did). Despite that though, he did have plenty of fights in season 1 that were more impressive than unamped KMs fight against BP.

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6:55, 11:44, 1:00, 6:39 and his fight with Stick are all places I don't see KM doing well for example

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Despite that though, he did have plenty of fights in season 1 that were more impressive than unamped KMs fight against BP.


Yes but almost all of those fights were against fodder. I don't remember S1 DD ever dominating a high-end opponent the same way Kilmonger dominated T'Challa.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes but almost all of those fights were against fodder. I don't remember S1 DD ever dominating a high-end opponent the same way Kilmonger dominated T'Challa. Yeah, but not all of them are normal fodder. Some of those guys were skilled martial artists in their own right like that no named assassin/ninja guy in the Karen's apartment. It's why the fights themselves are more impressive than unamped T'challas fight with KM. The ninjas in season 2 are fodder too, but damn terrifying fodder.