The Truth about the Molecule Man and Sentry - ENZERU vs REALITYWARPER

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Enzeru
This battlezone will be slightly different. It's not so much about who would win in a fight between two characters, who have never met each other. It's more about certain establishments and power levels of two characters: The Molecule Man and the Sentry.

The reason behind the debate are the fanatical claims of RealityWarper, who believes that the Molecule Man (from the Dark Avengers book) and the Sentry are multiversal in scale. On top of that he has certain other opinions, which are connected with his claims about Sentrys multiversal power level. And I am challenging all of those.
At least I tried to challenge his claims, but he started backtracking. It wasn't really possible to get him to agree to defend his opinion. He started talking about fallacies and whatnot, basically doing everything to avoid this debate. But I told him that the debate would happen, with or without him.

I'll make the start and mention his stance on the topics. He is then free to clarify his stance (lie about it not being true, even though everyone who knows him knows that I'm telling the truth), or to back it up, since I will very briefly sum up what he usually says, when he enters a thread about the Sentry or the Molecule Man.

TOPIC 1: RealityWarper claims, that Molecule Man (during Dark Avengers) was his old multiversal self.

His argument is based on the following things ideas:
https://i.imgur.com/j98dauH.jpg

^ That's a scan of the Molecule Man fighting the Beyonder and their fight being felt across the multiverse. They're affecting different universes and even different time lines. Quite the great feat.

However, many readers think that the Molecule Man during Dark Avengers was somehow weakened. And that's where the arguments get heated, because RealityWarper doesn't even entertain the idea of Molecule Man being weakened. He tries to justify his stance with the following scans:
https://i.imgur.com/xh3hewD.jpg

^ That's a scan of a description of Molecule Mans power. The SPECIAL TALENTS section states that his power level depends on his self-induced mental inhibitions.

In RealityWarpers mind these self-induced mental inhibitions are Molecule Mans ability / inability to control organic molecules:
https://i.imgur.com/PZ5oouR.jpg

^ That's a scan of Doctor Doom unlocking Molecule Mans mind and allowing him to control organic molecules - thus making him more powerful. RealityWarpers argument is, that since the Molecule Man in Dark Avengers was able to manipulate the organic molecules of other characters, he didn't have any mental issues and was therefore at his best and most powerful.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 1: This is where my take on all of that comes into play.

The problem with RealityWarpers take is, that he actively chooses to ignore other evidence, which points us into another direction. And I personally really dislike it, when people have a favorite character, yet they knowingly ignore bad stuff in order to make that character look better. So I will now list all of the stuff, which RealityWarper ignores and lies about.

I will now post the summary on the Molecule Man again:
https://i.imgur.com/xh3hewD.jpg

^ Look at the ASSESSMENT section. It talks about how the Molecule Man has often placed conditions on his own power, SUCH AS his early belief, that he couldn't affect organic molecules.
I made the such as bold, because that plays a role in this debate. Here is something RealityWarper usually likes to do, when he tries to put emphasis on something. He is usually completely wrong about the usage of his examples, but here it fits quite nicely:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/so-and-such/such-as



Molecule Mans summary even has the coma in front of such as. They specifically talk about Molecule Mans inability to control organic matter being only one of the other conditions he places upon himself, when he struggles mentally. So we can already throw the idea that a powered / depowered Molecule Man only can / can not control organic matter.

On top of that other evidence suggests this:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/adverbs-of-time-and-frequency/early



The summary once again specifically talks about Molecule Mans early inability to affect organic molecules. That means that he has gotten over that long time ago. We can even see him affect organic molecules in Dark Avengers, where he is in an unstable mental state.

So there has to be more that he can't do, when he deals with mental issues. But what is that more? Let's take a look at it:
https://i.imgur.com/Th2gAJh.jpg

^ That's a scan of a Molecule Man bio, which mentions what happened to him shortly before the events of the Dark Avengers. The bio states that Molecule Man mental state was fluctuating and that his power levels were manageable to a point, where SHIELD (I assume) was able to capture him and put him into the Raft, a prison for super-humans.
Imagine that Molecule Mans weak mental state only meant that he couldn't affect organic molecules. That would mean, that he would still be able to affect inorganic molecules on a multiversal scale. And that is far more than enough power to deal with not only SHIELD, but pretty much the majority of other Earth based heroes, who try to capture him and put him into a prison. But the bio also kinda makes it obvious, that Molecule Mans power overall decreased to a point, where no-names were able to deal with him.
And then once he broke out, people didn't know where he was or in which state of mind / at what power level he was.

Then we saw the Molecule Man Dark Avengers, where he was clearly going through some tough times:
https://i.imgur.com/wBl8pMf.jpg

^ In Dark Avengers Molecule Man had invaded his home town and got rid of all the people. Then he created a bunch of illusions, which were talking to him and maybe influencing him. He was clearly not in a stable mental state. He was clearly dealing with some issues and all of that was affecting him. And like we have established before, when Molecule Man goes through difficult mental states, his power level drops in general.

TOPIC 2: RealityWarper claims, that Sentry beating Molecule Man makes him multiversal as well. On top of that RealityWarper claims, that Sentrys power is limitless and that he can effectively use it against his opponents.

We have already established, that Molecule Man wasn't his old self during Dark Avengers. He was weaker and not much pointed at him being able to affect the multiverse. Actually nothing did. His power level was and is up for debate. So that by default makes Sentry beating him and supposedly being multiversal a moot point. But RealityWarper tries to justify that by bringing in Sentrys supposed limitless power:
https://i.imgur.com/NJCFaIl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3gEZczc.jpg

^ There you see two Sentry bios. The first one states, that the Sentry can potentially absorb limitless power and that when he is stable, he has the potential for virtually limitless power, strength and speed.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 2: This is where my take on all of that comes into play.

The problem is that RealityWarper takes that one word that is limitless and then bases his entire argument on it. In process he ignores the fact, that the bios specifically only talk about Sentrys potential. RealityWarper turns the Sentry into a completely different character. He turns the Sentry into his own twisted battle board version, while ignoring how the character truly is in the comics:
https://i.imgur.com/8wxAVMY.jpg

^ That Sentry summary shows what I'm talking about. In the ASSESSMENT section you can see how they talk about Sentry potentially being the most powerful man in existence, but that his flaws at times outweigh said potential. Sentry is not a mentally stable person. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that. That's actually the reason why I really like the character. He has certain struggles he has to deal with.
The point is, that Sentry was never truly stable and that he most likely never will be. He -by default- can't tap into his limitless potential, because he is his own worst enemy.

For us to even entertain the idea of Sentry actually wielding limitless power, he would have got become mentally completely stable. He would need to get rid of his schizophrenia and his generalized anxiety disorder.

Enzeru
TOPIC 3:RealityWarper claims, that Sentry has been mentally stable, since he left the sun after the events of Siege.

It was me who immediately pointed out, that Sentry got rid of his agoraphobia and that it would have positive impacts on his power level:
https://i.imgur.com/e1OrL3J.jpg

^ There Sentry talks about how he got rid of his agoraphobia and the nightmare it was for him. As some of you know, during the World War Hulk storyline, Sentry was weakened, because he was dealing with a lot of agoraphobia anxiety. He was unable to leave his house for a couple of days and only did so, when Hulk threatened to kill other superheroes. And as you could see it in Sentrys bios, Sentrys power level depends on his mental stability.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 2: This is where my take on all of that comes into play.

The problem is, that RealityWarper took that to whole another level. In his mind Sentry didn't just get rid of his agoraphobia... In RealityWarpers mind Sentry got rid of all of his mental issues and therefore has access to his limitless power.
Now the thing is, that -as I already said- Sentry also has to deal with schizophrenia and generalized anxiety disorder:
https://i.imgur.com/Z3Wrfe3.jpg

^ Sentry has displayed both of these illnesses after he left the sun. He isn't agoraphobic anymore, but schizophrenic? Hell yeah, he is. Void exists due to Sentrys schizophrenia:
https://i.imgur.com/0yPoWe6.jpg

On top of that Sentry still deals with his generalized anxiety disorder, since he is constantly worrying about what him using his powers means for the world:
https://i.imgur.com/xLx59Sj.jpg

All of that is still keeping the Sentry back from reaching his full potential and gaining access to his full power. And in the upcoming Sentry on-going book by Jeff Lemire (coming out end of June, so make sure to buy it), Sentry will still be dealing with his mental issues.

To sum things up:

+ Molecule Man was weakened during Dark Avengers, since he was dealing with mental issues and even got captured by regular no-names before his encounter with the Sentry.

+ Sentry doesn't have limitless power, because for that to happen, he would have to become stable first. Deep down he is a troubled man, who has yet to overcome his illness and inner demons.

+ Sentry isn't mentally stable, because he still shows symptoms of his schizophrenia and generalized anxiety disorder.

Your turn, RealityWarper:

Stop trying to chicken out of this. Be a man and defend your opinion, you coward.

RealityWarper
I will do it in a Battlezone once you have stopped shitting yourself. smile

RealityWarper
Nice try at debating yourself by the way. laughing

RealityWarper

RealityWarper

RealityWarper
Well played again, Donald !

https://pics.me.me/donald-trumps-schedule-for-the-rest-of-the-week-gives-21982190.png

RealityWarper
Creating a strawman:

"HEY GO DEFEND THE DISTORDED / MISREPRESENTED VERSION OF YOUR ARGUMENTS THAT I CREATED BECAUSE I'M TOO LOW ON THE FOOD CHAIN TO MAKE A NORMAL DEBATE !"


Try harder Enzeru.

Your ludicrous attempt is over 9000 now !Thanks for the laugh ! laughing

leonidas
here i was hoping to see some actual support for all the sentry idiocy, but...quad post, and not a single reply in any of them. laughing out loud this likely won't stay open long. if it were me, i know i'd hate it if this closed before i replied and all anyone had the chance to see was me getting my bullsh!t completely pushed in. thumb up

RealityWarper
Originally posted by leonidas
here i was hoping to see some actual support for all the sentry idiocy, but...quad post, and not a single reply in any of them. laughing out loud this likely won't stay open long. if it were me, i know i'd hate it if this closed before i replied and all anyone had the chance to see was me getting my bullsh!t completely pushed in. thumb up

Actually he didn't do anything but creating his own version of my supposed arguments because he knows that I will shitstomps him if he doesn't create a flawed and imaginary version of my arguments.

That's pretty much a confession that he can't beat me in a debate. thumb up

I'm still waiting for our REAL BATTLEZONE to START.

THIS MASCARADE JUST MAKE ME LAUGH ACTUALLY.

laughing

leonidas
hey, all i know is that you came on here shouting and challenging....pretty well everyone, and he stepped up, punched you in the face and you haven't done anything in response except laugh. easy to laugh and call names and flame and bait. any ****stick can do that and we have more than enough of that in the forum already. he hasn't done anything to you that i can see except call you out publicly and accept your challenge. i mean keep laughing and flaming. it's likely to end with a ban and a closed thread (backseat modding is fun) while also serving notice, officially, that all the sentry talk really is just a load of bullsh!t. i'm just an interested bystander, and it doesn't matter much to me what you do since i'd consider it a win either way. /shrug

RealityWarper
Originally posted by leonidas
hey, all i know is that you came on here shouting and challenging....pretty well everyone, and he stepped up, punched you in the face and you haven't done anything in response except laugh. easy to laugh and call names and flame and bait. any ****stick can do that and we have more than enough of that in the forum already. he hasn't done anything to you that i can see except call you out publicly and accept your challenge. i mean keep laughing and flaming. it's likely to end with a ban and a closed thread (backseat modding is fun) while also serving notice, officially, that all the sentry talk really is just a load of bullsh!t. i'm just an interested bystander, and it doesn't matter much to me what you do since i'd consider it a win either way. /shrug

He didn't accept my challenge.

He is still debating himself via the use of strawmen.

Imagine I accept a debate with you, create a thread, make a distorted version of your arguments and then I debate the fallacious version I created....

That sounds objectively retarded, right ?

It's actually happening.

If Enzeru actually had half the courage he is pretending, he would follow the normal building of a Battlezone...

I called him out in my thread multiple times to agree on the rules and he kept avoiding the topic, then created a thread where he is debating himself.

Those are facts.

I am still waiting for him to grow balls and actually accept the confrontation in a Battlezone where I will shape my arguments and not the distorted version he is trying to sell to everyone.

What a failure...

Enzeru
I've made my opening post yesterday, in which I started debunking RealityWarpers claims.
As I can see RealityWarper has already responded to it. I'm not surprised by his response. Honestly, I expected to see that very response.
RealityWarper didn't try to defend his claims and debunk mine. Instead he started crying about the strawman fallacy:



So in his opening post RealityWarper is crying and lying about me supposedly twisting and ridiculing his opinion in order to make it look invalid and him bad. He is saying (lying), that in reality his opinion is completely different than what I made it look like.
And I will now glady debunk his claim with my second post in this battlezone. Obviously this is connected to the same three topics I covered in my opening post.

TOPIC 1: I have claimed, that RealityWarper constantly talks about the Sentry having multiversal power. About the Sentry having limitless power.

RealityWarper however is now saying that I'm lying and that the truth is actually completely different.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 1: Let me show you how it actually is.

I put in the time and effort to look through a couple of battle boards and threads in order to collect some of RealityWarpers posts about Sentrys power level. Note how I put emphasis on a couple. You need to understand that this is an on-going theme with RealityWarper. He is not only active on the two boards I looked up. He is everywhere. And there are hundreds, if not thousands posts from him, which always feature the same lies and nonsense about the Sentry and things, which relate to the Sentry.

Here is an image with a couple of statements from RealityWarper. It's not just one post from him. I made a collage from multiple Sentry related threads across two different battle boards. And as I said, there are hundred more of such posts:
https://i.imgur.com/uih21Gk.jpg

^ Here are some of my favorites statements from RealityWarper from that little collage:





If anything, I made RealityWarper look much more manageable than he actually is in the threads he appears and bothers other users in.

TOPIC 2: I have claimed, that RealityWarper constantly talks about how Molecule Man wasn't depowered during Dark Avengers. That he was at his best. His old multiversal self.

RealityWarper however is now saying that I'm lying and that the truth is actually completely different.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 2: Let me show you how it actually is.

Here is again a little collage of RealityWarper talking about how Molecule Man wasn't depowered:
https://i.imgur.com/ed7O76f.jpg

^ And like with the previous topics... That's just a very, very, very small fraction of the posts from RealityWarper. And that's not even old stuff. He has been around for like ... 5 or 6 years by now. And many of the statements I've now shown you are from the last few months. Some of the other users are already dealing with a severe case of RealityWarper PTSD.
Anyway, as you can see he is constantly talking about how Molecule Man wasn't depowered. But that's not even the main problem. The main problem is, that he is often straight up lying, making things up, withholding information and so on.

TOPIC 3: I have claimed, that RealityWarper thinks the Sentry is sane now and has access to his full potential and power.

RealityWarper however is now saying that I'm lying and that the truth is actually completely different.

COUNTER ARGUMENT 3: Let me show you how it actually is.

Here is an example of where he mentions just that:
https://i.imgur.com/pDmYzAM.jpg

^ There was a better example, where we actually went at it and it tried to explain the truth to him in a slow and understandable manner, but I couldn't find that one anymore. However, you can probably imagine how that turned out.
I've shown you all the examples where RealityWarper talks about Sentrys supposed limitless power. And in my opening post I showed you that the Sentry is a character, whose entire stick is to be flawed. And that he will probably never get completely sane and stable and reach his full potential. That's something RealityWarper likes to disagree with. He doesn't have a base and he doesn't even have a compelling argument. He just does, because it fits into his narrative of this omniversal Sentry creature, who can beat your favorite comic book hero with a single thought, while banging your favorite manga girl.

To sum things up:

+ I've posted proof of RealityWarpers delusions about Sentrys supposeld multiversal, if not even omniversal power.

+ I've posted proof of RealityWarpers claims that the Molecule Man was not weakened during the events of the Dark Avengers. Proof of RealityWarpers claims that the Molecule Man was his old multiversal self.

+ I've posted proof of RealityWarper not grasping the most basic Sentry concept: Of the Sentry being a flawed character, who is his own worst enemy and can therefore NOT reach his full potential and power level.

Badabing
Enzeru wins. thumb up clapclap

DarkSaint85
A true mod ruling thumb up

leonidas
that settles that. thumb up

Philosophía
I'm going to ponder this for a few days and then send a decision.

I was going back and forth with every post.

SSJGGogeta
Realitywarper is probably cutting himself right now.

-Pr-
1. This thread is in the wrong place.
2. It really comes across as baiting.
3. It doesn't matter whether someone believes RW is wrong or not, this honestly comes across as kind of petty.

If this weird rivalry continues to cause disruption on the forum, it's going to lead to bans.

Enzeru
Originally posted by -Pr-

1. This thread is in the wrong place.
2. It really comes across as baiting.
3. It doesn't matter whether someone believes RW is wrong or not, this honestly comes across as kind of petty.

Did RealityWarper report this thread?

Anyway. Your response confuses me more than the fact, that RealityWarper hasn't been perma-banned long time ago. He has trolled this board and spread toxicity for years now. But in the last few days he went extra-crazy, which is why this thread exists. This thread is meant to call him out on his BS and shut him up.

Originally posted by -Pr-

If this weird rivalry continues to cause disruption on the forum, it's going to lead to bans.

Do me a favor, do all the other KMC battle boarders a favor, do yourself a favor and ultimately do RealityWarper a favor and perma-ban him. You'll get rid of a lot of future disruption that way.

Alternatively I'll just block / ignore him and encourage everyone else to do the same. Maybe then he will go away on his own.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Enzeru
Did RealityWarper report this thread?

Anyway. Your response confuses me more than the fact, that RealityWarper hasn't been perma-banned long time ago. He has trolled this board and spread toxicity for years now. But in the last few days he went extra-crazy, which is why this thread exists. This thread is meant to call him out on his BS and shut him up.



Do me a favor, do all the other KMC battle boarders a favor, do yourself a favor and ultimately do RealityWarper a favor and perma-ban him. You'll get rid of a lot of future disruption that way.

Alternatively I'll just block / ignore him and encourage everyone else to do the same. Maybe then he will go away on his own.

Telling mods who they should and shouldn't ban is generally seen as a bad idea.

Whatever your opinion of the guy, you're supposed to report the person for what they're doing. Not make baity threads about it. Now, if you did report him and I, or another mod didn't see it, that's fair enough. But we don't respond well to things like this. At all.

DarkSaint85
In Enzeru's defense, it came out of another thread.

And at least it kept things out of the other threads.

I mean, it's still a general cluster**** lol....but it's limited.

Enzeru
Originally posted by -Pr-

Telling mods who they should and shouldn't ban is generally seen as a bad idea.

Ah, I see. It's one of those "I'm a mod and you'll do what I tell you"-things.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Whatever your opinion of the guy, you're supposed to report the person for what they're doing. Not make baity threads about it. Now, if you did report him and I, or another mod didn't see it, that's fair enough. But we don't respond well to things like this. At all.

Check this out:
https://i.imgur.com/VBpTXaA.jpg

That's RealityWarpers first post in a thread you've closed. An unprovoked insult out of nowhere, and given the nature of Lucifers power level compared to the Sentry... it's safe to say that it's -once again- toxic trolling and baiting on top of the insult.
But you haven't even warned RealityWarper. Do you want me to post all the insults and baits that cowardly goof has thrown out in the last few days?
I'll do your work for you, if you don't feel like doing your job as a mod and researching it. You seem to be too busy trying to school me for calling him out on his BS.

Check out RealityWarpers behaviour here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t653307.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t649831.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t653362.html

Badabing
Originally posted by Enzeru
Ah, I see. It's one of those "I'm a mod and you'll do what I tell you"-things.



Check this out:
https://i.imgur.com/VBpTXaA.jpg

That's RealityWarpers first post in a thread you've closed. An unprovoked insult out of nowhere, and given the nature of Lucifers power level compared to the Sentry... it's safe to say that it's -once again- toxic trolling and baiting on top of the insult.
But you haven't even warned RealityWarper. Do you want me to post all the insults and baits that cowardly goof has thrown out in the last few days?
I'll do your work for you, if you don't feel like doing your job as a mod and researching it. You seem to be too busy trying to school me for calling him out on his BS.

Check out RealityWarpers behaviour here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t653307.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t649831.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t653362.html You made a bait thread and now think it's a good idea to start up with a mod? Not very smart. You should stop now.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Enzeru
Ah, I see. It's one of those "I'm a mod and you'll do what I tell you"-things.



Check this out:
https://i.imgur.com/VBpTXaA.jpg

That's RealityWarpers first post in a thread you've closed. An unprovoked insult out of nowhere, and given the nature of Lucifers power level compared to the Sentry... it's safe to say that it's -once again- toxic trolling and baiting on top of the insult.
But you haven't even warned RealityWarper. Do you want me to post all the insults and baits that cowardly goof has thrown out in the last few days?
I'll do your work for you, if you don't feel like doing your job as a mod and researching it. You seem to be too busy trying to school me for calling him out on his BS.

Check out RealityWarpers behaviour here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t653307.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t649831.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t653362.html

I explained the simplest way to get yourself heard, and you decided to be a dick about it. I mean, I appreciate you providing links too, but you didn't even give me a chance to look over them before you started in on the snippy shit. That's not cool, man.

LordofBrooklyn
DAMN THE MODS!!!!

THE REBELLION STARTS HERE!!!

Badabing
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
DAMN THE MODS!!!!

THE REBELLION STARTS HERE!!! https://media.giphy.com/media/j0OKYfxUYdcvS/giphy.gif

Prof. T.C McAbe
Enzeru won, Fatality style.

xJLxKing

Eon Blue

Wheeler
I don't even wanna imagine how many times a person would have to be dicked right in their brain for them to genuinely believe SENTRY of all characters is multiversal. Or that he could take Lucifer or Micheal in a fight.

Baziemarc123
lol this was awkward

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