BATTLEZONE! WWH vs Magneto, Philosophia vs Damborgson

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The Sentry has fallen. The Sorcerer Supreme is no more. The Warbound stand triumphant. No one can stand between the Green Scar and his vengeance - no Juggernaut, no X-man, no Inhuman - he has judged them all, and they have been found wanting.

Only one old mutant stands, alone. He has survived the death camps of Poland...can he survive what comes next?

Philosophia, representing Magneto, will face Damborgson, who is using WWH.

Damborgson is also free to use any and all feats for Hulk, without using WBH.

Battleground: a generic New York neighborhood.

Starting distance: 0.5km

3 post limit, inclusive of OP.


Should Magneto lose, Darksaint85 will not post for one week. Should Hulk lose, Carver9 will not post for one week.

Judges: Leo, Supermutant, Martian, Beatboks, Zop.


It has come to this.

Magneto, a mutant with total control over the electromagnetic spectrum and magnetic fields:

Against World War Hulk, a being based on gamma energy covered in metal armour:

Chapter I - Ready, set...

Before anything else, I'd like to put an emphasis on Magneto's multi-tasking and his speed of action.

His synapses/nervous system is specifically modified by his powers to operate far above normal speed and capacity:

Pietro "my speed means nothing to him" Maximoff:

Northstar gets choked mid-blitz and leaves Magneto unimpressed:

Even more conventional stuff, like deflecting energy blasts/bullets after they're fired:

He reacts during Nightcrawler's teleportation:

His consciousness is able to follow Captain Marvel going lightspeed:


Suffice to say, he thinks really fast.

He is also one of the more infamous multi-taskers. Some examples:

- jams Jean/Xavier's psionic powers with his EM powers to mask his Acolytes
- stops each individual X-Men's conscious control over their power by gripping the iron in their blood
- WHILE holding Avalon afloat
- and incapacitates Wolverine and mocks Xavier ... all while giving a speech.

In an instant he:
- locks Iron Man's armor
- controls the iron in She-Hulk's blood to make her punch WarBird, then reverses it to incapacitate her
- encases triathlon in metal particles
- while keeping Wanda, Quicksilver and Polaris inside a magnetic shield
- then takes control of 37 orbital satellites from various world countries

Notice he's as casual as he can be.

Chapter II - Hulk gets George Clooney'd

The fight starts. We're 0.5 km apart.

Suffice to say, I'd instantly know where he is given that he's, well, a big gamma energy being covered in metal armor. That....stands out quite a bit, for somebody who can sense each and every type of energy/disturbance in the electromagnetic field, bio-electric fields of living beings etc.

Distance for Magneto is irrelevant.

I instantly raise a shield as I fly up, and cancel gravity around him, leaving Hulk floating helplessly:

...then I simply throw Hulk thousands of feet in the air, by grabbing his armor/iron in his blood. Mags has done it to people when they were 50 miles away:
Instantly sent people into orbit:
He's also put the likes of JuggerColossus into orbit with a thought:
He's lifted himself and Proteus mid-sentence into orbit, while he was dying:
He's taken control of She-Hulk's blood easily, just as a side-task:
Here's even silver age Mags levitating Hulk himself in the air and slamming him into Hercules:
Remember that spaceship, Avlon, that I mentioned earlier was so big it was wreaking havok with Earth's EM field? Here's Magneto's power moving it instantly ridiculous space distances:

Very important note: the iron in his blood isn't something that he can 'outmuscle'. I'm grabbing the iron in the blood in his heart, liver, lungs,brain etc. I'm NOT trying to stop him from moving his hands, or anything like that. Imagine somebody being able to lift you up in the air by grabbing your internal organs' blood just by much you can bench-press is irelevant AND he also has a metal armor AND a body based on gamma radiation.

In case he tries to thunderclap, I have my shield up. I might just warp it back at him:
If he tries to leap, which he won't manage to complete given he's already in the air, that would be a very bad decision, since he'd lose his connection to the ground, at which point I simply redirect his momentum upwards by grabbing his armor/iron in blood/gamma build/redirecting him with a blast], then send him into orbit/cancel gravity around him.

For reference, Storm easily redirected his leaping, and that was just with a gust of wind:

The end point: Hulk is now floating powerless in the air thousands of feet above the ground. He's my pinata.

At this point, the fight is over and I become..

Chapter III - The surgeon

Surgeons usually wear white clothes.

Not wanting to break tradition, I do something similar.

Enter: the White Pilgrim.

My next move is to cloak myself completely and take him apart from distance .. How completely, you may ask? Black Bolt's energy-acute senses and Lockjaw, who can track a spoor across the cosmos couldn't even sense my presence as I was walking by them :

Hulk is now not only suspended from gravity in the upper atmosphere, but doesn't even know where I am aaaand...

*puts his gloves on*

Let's get started.

What he thinks is happening.

This is the distraction part. Let's see if candy falls out of him. As he's suspended mid-air far above the ground, I start doing damage that I know he can regenerate, like this: WBH by the way]

I also fill his insides with metal particles that I send up his nostrills and...ahem..other orifices :
Even silver age mags was casually filling up the sky with them: case he gets bored just...uhm, floating there.

Even though I'm undetectable, just for the sake of it, I also cut off his eyes with nano-edged pieces of my helmet:

Even X-23's claws have blinded him:

He regenerates, and I do it again. He regenerates, and I do it again. get the point.

I keep him busy.

What is actually happening

But we all know, if you damage Hulk, he eventually regenerates and comes back, no? We saw that with Zom, and all of the other beings he encounters.

So what do I do?

I don't count on physical damage.

I put him to sleep.

One of the more obscure or, better said, underrated abilities of Magneto, is that of being able to alter brain activity of beings by manipulating their blood.

And he can simply...slow the blood to the brain, to make the opponent lose consciousness, or keep them active enough to listen to his commands. As seen here against X-Men/Avengers:

In fact, his control is so good, that he makes Xavier catatonic and Jean can't even sense he's conscious:


Or, if I want to be quick about it and get the KO win, I send an EMP that literally shuts down brains :

Magneto's first manifestation of his powers was him literally shutting down the brains of everybody around him with a pulse, when he didn't even have control over his power:

In case you're wondering how strong Magneto's EMP is...He sends an EMP that blankets the entire planet, and Xavier admits that if he wanted, he could have wiped everybody out.

Notice he's in space. Suffice to say, the range I can send it as is at my leisure.

That...focused on Hulk's brain, would be lights out.


Here's a little preview of how this match will end.

Now, let's get into this shall we?

Hulk is Toughest There Is

Let's get this out of the way, Hulk is one of the most difficult hero's in Marvel to hurt, and even harder to keep down for any lasting amount of time.

While we're fighting in a suburb, there's still plenty of metal in the vicinity that Philomagneto can try and smack me with.

I'm sure he can see the folly of blunt force:

even swinging to win, and breaking bones with every shot, the Hulk can take Mjolnir strikes and bounce back quick enough to avoid point black hammer throws. There's no car or house that will impede me.

Mageto can of course be much more refined that those types of approaches if needs to be, refining metals into shapes that can pierce and damage Hulk, in theory. Right?


Hulk shrugs off point blank adamantium bullets straight off the operating table.

Note that the Hulk was being attacked by Doctor Strange at the time of this assault by the army, and the adamantium shrapnel was doing superficial damage at best.

The second he was free of Dr. Strange's influence he ended the threat by charging through it.

So even refined attacks, by metal no less, are not productive.

The thing about all this is, I'm sure my opponent realizes this. When has smacking and cutting ever really been a good idea? Not often.

Which means that Magnephilo probably has a different avenue of attack in mind, he's going to go for my insides.

Internal Attacks

Let's face it, the outside isn't the best method of attacking me. But Magneto has fine control over all metal, which means he can attack the metal in my blood for a variety of different effects.

Could some of it work on Hulk? Possibly. If he had the time to do it. This isn't your average Hulk just wants to be left alone green retard. This green retard isn't going to give Erick Philosophia time to attack.

But just to cover all my bases, let's talk about how hard it is to hurt Hulk from the inside.

Multiple piercing wounds where his spine should have been, recovered miraculously in moments. And he came back with such strength as to put down a piece of Zom and walk away without issue.

Survives immolation to the head without much trouble

and one of my favorites:

an adamanitum spike to the head barely registers as damage.

Not to be left out:

So, what does this all mean? It means I'm basically impossible to hurt by the likes of Magneto, and in the case that I am hurt I have on panel feats of healing from normally fatal damage in moments.

I can go on with examples but the purpose of this isn't to throw a respect thread at Auschwitz's number one fan. Simply put, that I want it to be clear that Magneto isn't going to be able to damage me beyond anything superficial. The Hulk has taken the best Marvel can give and at his World War Hulk levels been able to give it right back.

So then how do we proceed?

The Strategy

Here's the deal, Hulk isn't what one might say...Silver Surfer. I don't have 1000+ opening moves, and the distance at which we start favors Magneto. In theory.

Because the moment the fight starts, Magneto has a choice, but both roads take him to the same end. Either he puts his shields up, or he's about to get hit with the equivalent of a nuke's concussive force.

At the very start of the match, I bring my hands together and release the strongest thunder clap ever released by the Hulk. Forcing Magneto to either cover up or be blown away. Even before WWH Hulk's thunder claps could sent the likes of Hercules flying, let alone now. How strong does one have to be to knock someone out by clapping their hands? Ask Red Hulk:

and that was of course, full power, just hit Hulk in the head with a nuclear blast Red Hulk, Loeb force red Hulk, who Hulk just casually clapped away.

What will my clap produce on Magneto? If he attempted to attack me in any way, not only will I blow away his metal but his entire body will be swept away and at my mercy, assuming he's not uncociouss. If he did shield, and attemtpt to escape into the sky, he's going to be met with an even greater force than what had him reeling alreay on panel:

When confronted with a sudden blast, magneto has only time to hastily erect a shield. True, he was guarding others as well,perhaps with a more localized shield he'd be able to better prepare right? The take away from the scan is actually in Magneto's own narration as he feels the pain of strain against his shields.

We see it again here:

and once again a sudden blast here:

It causes stress on Magneto to have to deal with sudden, powerful forces on his shielding. And, depending on the kind of force, it can go right through his shielding.

With all the force I'm letting loose, you can bet not all of it is going to be trees, rocks, etc. It's wind, sound waves, etc.

So my clap goess off, levels the playing field, including Magneto who will feel the feedback of the strength of the clap. What is Magneto doing during this time? Hopefully dedicating all his power to his shielding, because his body WILL get blown away if he's not concentating, a problem that Tony Stark picked up on:

Stark, with a fraction of the force that I am capable of emitting, was effectively able to keep Magneto occupied enough from switching to using his more refined abilities.

Which leads me to...

Strategy Part 2: The Charge

Hulk has always had pretty good reflexes, but you know what has always been one of his forte's? His leaping ability. He usually uses it as a simple form of travel, but in this arena, he's about to cross the gap between Mags and himself, in moments.

So that's one of the weakest and earliest versions of Hulk.

Hulk straight up caught up to a rocket during its flight. To give an idea of how impressive that is, the speed of your average, unimpressive, cruiser missile is 880km/h

at those speeds, a cruiser would be traveling .24km per second, meaning it would cover the starting distance in two seconds, more or less. And this wasn't your average pussy cruiser missile, thid was a Leader created Doomsday Missile. AND THE HULK CAUGHT IT. Here's the link fact checking by the way:

And that was early savage Hulk. WWH? I would be on you in less than a second, and that's hardly unreasonable. Given that Hulk's got plenty of feats of that nature, and he's only gotten stronger since them.

So it would go -thunder clap- you brace for it, I blitz, hit your shields, and the strain of being hit by that much force that quickly would either completely give you a stroke, from what we've seen Magneto hurt from, or, now that I'm on you, I proceed to pound on your defenses until the fight is over and you are pulp. There's no way to get me off you, and Magneto doesn't have the feats to suggest he could handle that kind of pounding from the strongest hero in Marvel.

The blitz would be truly terrifying, and sooner than later you'd end up like poor Sue Storm.

and that's from a holding back melee Hulk, not the missile of a creature about to pop your shields and maybe sink the continent as an after effect.

Hulk: Force of Nature

Now, don't be getting an ideas about trying to restrain me. You can give it a shot, but all the metal on the block isn't going to stop me. Hulk is Hulk.

The angrier Hulk gets the stronger he gets, and even little abstracts have to take note.

Of course, he's got good examples on a more realistic level.

Shugging off peak heroes by flexing his muscles.

The point being, there's no way to get rid of me. I'll charge again and again if I need to, but I don't think Magneto will be in any sort of condition to fight me off after the initial contact. And just incase the possibility of me missing comes up, somehow, even though I'm slamming intom him in less than a second:

Hulk is Lobo levels of stupid. He can do what he wants. It's summed up quite well here:

Hulk goes where Hulk wants, not even negative zone particles can make him stop.

and as a last bit for this first post:

Hulk is also incredibly intelligent. And just as he adjusted to not kill innocents, so too can he adjust to hit you over and over again, assuming the first blow doesn't do the job.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

It has come to this.

Magneto, a mutant with total control over the electromagnetic spectrum and magnetic fields:

Against World War Hulk, a being based on gamma energy covered in metal armour:

Good post, no time wasted there. A very methodical and all encompassing first post to which there really shouldn't be much of a come back. Right?

Well, thankfully....I believe you made a mistake.

Swiss-Army Magneto - With One Condition

It's true, Magneto can do a lot at once. Providing he has focus.

Magneto's shields, his greatest defensive strength are also what's going to drag him down.

Because my opening move, is what's going to keep the rest of his plan from coming to fruition.

As soon as I thunderclap, your shields will be hit with enough strain to make you concentrate on the pain.

After all, even basic, silver age Hulk could produce thunderclaps of nuclear proportions:

And it only got worse with time. Hulk's thunderclaps were powerful enough to redirect energy that shattered Nightcrawler's cosmos.

Hulk has also recently proven he can do tremendous damage by bringing those green mitts together, even in his weaker forms like Doc Green.

I bring up these feats because they are all orders of Magnitude weaker than the version of the Hulk I am using.

So suffice to say, it will be notable force. Force strong enough to AT LEAST put Magneto in a defensive position:

Because to all Magneto's power, his abilities work at their max if he's not under pressure, and my plan was pressure from the moment of the fight. Now, Magneto has to deal with the repercussions of a Hulk level Thunderclap as he deals with the strain put on his body.

For those who think that Magneto will simply endure the clap and go on with his business as usual, the clap will be carrying plenty with it:

Hulk scoured the terrain, like a man made hurricane.

We are fighting on a New York Block, Magneto will have everything and the kitchen sink flung at him. And seeing as how Philo tried to have Magneto go Swiss army on Hulk at the very beginning, his attention isn't that focused on his shield, which leaves him vulnerable:

Magneto had basic shields up and they didn't help with the non metalic objects being thrown at him, and it's not the only time something of that nature happens:

So even if the scan with Banshee looks good, Magneto had a lot of time to look at him and enact the reflective impulsive of his shield. Here, he's focusing on me, trying to reverse gravity, but he won't be able to in time for the wave of destruction already reach him.

Charge - The End

After that, the rest of my plan goes through. The charge.

So let's go back to my earlier numbers, I was very generous, comparing the Leaders' doomsday rocket to a typical cruiser missile. A missile of which would cover the gap within 2 seconds, give or take a few tenths of a second.

Hulk was able to catch the rocket, after it took off. Meaning he'd have to go substantially faster the rocket to begin with. Consider the rocket was already so far into the sky you could see the curvature of the planet:

Then you consider, that there's absolutely no way it could have covered the distance it did as a simple cruiser missile, which it obviously wasn't, and the Hulk's feat is not legitimate super speed.

Then you factor in, that that was one of the weakest versions of the Hulk EVER. And I have access to the strongest non world breaker Hulk EVER. Meaning I am vastly superior to anything performed in those feats.

Philo posted a scan of storm redirecting my bounding leap with her wind, but I'm not bounding, I am aiming for Magneto and making a bee-line leaping charge. AND Magneto has a solid failure overcoming a certain level of speed:

Speeds which won't be much of an issue for Hulk to overcome.

Even in the Northstar scan, as much as Magneto bragged, he got blitzed. It's honestly not the best showing.

I would cover the gap in the fraction of a second, and land a crushing blow on Magneto's shield.

How hard does Hulk hit?

Philo posted some pretty high end Mags' feats, I feel its only fair to do the same:

Originally posted by carver9
I think this showing is better. Hulk punch so hard that he punches through time and not only does he punch through time, he reverse time all across the M.U.

The indestructible Hulk, pulling a superboy prime level punch on time, something he's done since the classic era:

So suffice to say, Hulk breaks what Hulk wants.

Though his feats aren't all centered around the absolutely ridiculous:

Even at his weakest form in grey, Hulk could pop Asteroids twice the size of Earth.

and higher on the strength chart, yet still less than WWH:

And that was on Hulk's back, with no leverage. I'm slamming into Magneto's shields in the fraction of a second, angrier than ever, without holding back.

Magneto would fall over as the strain either popped his shields or knocked him out from the strain.

The Fight so far

-Ding ding-

-Magneto flies into the air with his starter shields and looks to cancel gravity-

-Magneto is hit with the equivalent of a nuke thunder clap and stuggles to maintain his shields-

-Hulk hits Magneto in the fraction of a second -

- Magneto is beaten viciously -

- Darksaint goes away for a weak -

Chapter IV - Damborg's Hail Mary

Damborg's entire strategy rests on a prepared, fully shielded Magneto unable to form a thought against a metal armor-covered, gamma-powered, 900 pounds Hulk, to lift him helplessly off the ground because...he thunderclaps from .5 km away.

And furthermore, the same Hulk described above, leaps at the master of magnetism, hoping that the thunderclap produced the desired result. And we specifically never mentioned if we're both within line of sight - he might not even see my location, while I can definitely sense his.

I can't fault him for that. Hulk is severely limited.

That is exactly the point of this debate.

But first..

Chapter V - Damborg's Gish Galop

The what? The this:

Basically, Damborg has overloaded with so many out of context scans, that it takes more scans and space for me to explain them, than it was for him to post them. This isn't the myth busting thread , and we don't have the space to waste on each of them.

To be succinct: he thunderclapped Rulk right in front of his face AFTER they've had a lengthy fight and Rulk just absorbed and exploded all of his power in a nuke-like attack; using 'like small nuclear bombs!' hyperboles from the Silver Age when the actual thunderclap's effects are visibly less, is a no go; the "Nightcrawler" cosmos was just a few chunks of rocky paths surrounding them - - and he just redirected the attack; the rest of the thunderclaps are kid's play for Magneto's shield. I mean, this? And destroying a complex, turning over some tanks etc.? Against somebody who can casually stop a full fledged Mjolnir strike, casually? Please. We'll get to Mags shields in a bit..

Leaping? The specific version used in this thread has been, as I've already showed, redirect mid-flight by Storm with wind. She can't control his metal armor. Or his gamma-energy. Or the iron in his blood. She can't reverse gravity. All of which Magneto can do, easily, with but a thought. Yet Storm could still easily deal with his leaping.

Now, I've dealt extensively with Magneto's reaction time, but just for the sake of posting some other scans, here's Rulk trying to leap towards Magneto, who uses none of the above options, yet still casually handles the leap:

He's grabbed Cannonball mid-flight and stopped him cold by the iron in his blood:

He can send people hurling helplesssly with the speed of thought :

The crux of his arguments:

*** Magneto shielding the Avengers ***

If the "...must ignore the pain in my jaw..." from Magnus wasn't a dead give-away for what happened there, allow me to post the entire scene:

Now, this confused me for a simple reason: Magneto, who just woke up from unconsciousness, barely standing and with jaw pain from having been blasted in the face, unshielded, by Captain Marvel, puts up a split-second 'thin, hastly erected' large-area shield to protect the entire Avengers team from an explosion that is explicitly deadly, and which has already KOd Captain Marvel, and succesfully saves them. But this showing is used as an argument that a fully prepared, fully personal-shielded Magneto wouldn't be able to use his power to neutralize the Hulk as he...claps from far away?

*** Magneto and the nuke ***

It's from Magneto War, where he was literally using all of his power and focus to take the whole world hostage and merge with the Magnetosphere. Tanking the nukes was just a side-task, the bulk of his power was concentrated on the former.

Magneto tanking a nuke while controlling Rogue's trajectory:

***Magneto and non-metallic stuff***

In a move that was quite senseless, Damborg is using a scan of Iron Man using preparation and demagnetizing objects to surprise Magneto as proof of..uhm...something?
Or does Hulk get prep that I'm unaware of here? Perhaps a demagnetized, plastic spear built by Tony?

He is also conflating manipulating ceramics/plastics, with being able to destroy and shielding from them.
Can Magneto control plastics/ceramics as easily as he manipulates metal? No.
Can he easily desintegrate them? Yes. He has done so, casually
Suffice to say, Magneto's power operate on a sub-atomic level:
Can manipulate individual electrons:
He can manipulate more than just metal:
He's easily manipulated gold :
Broken out of a force-field specifically immune to his powers:
So...uh...Hulk's...demagnetization powers will be useless.

***Magneto and being caught unaware ***
You might notice a pattern in his post - weakened/unaware Magneto barely putting up a shield , being used as proof of how Magneto deals with attacks he expects or, even more baffling, can't do two things at once.

Suffice to say, that is a pretty crazy assertion, for anybody who's read Magneto.

This match isn't "Magneto has tea and Hulk sucker punches him". As I've said in my OP, I'm explicitly shielding against the thunderclap, and ready to even warp it back at him, if so I wish.

Which leads directly into...

Chapter VI - "He protec but he also attac"

Damborg used a weird example, in which Iron Man is pouring on a continuous repulsor blast not, as it's a single shockwave] to keep Magneto preocupied. The problem there? In that same fight, Magneto explicitly lifts and drops 200 tons on Iron Man's head, as he's defending AND trying to affect his armor :

But, to move on to a heavy-weight:

"I can do two things at once...shield myself and counterattack"

And he does this, back to back, against Cyclops and then against Jean Phoenix. He both shields himself against Phoenix's multiple-planes of attack and at the same time warps Earth's magnetic field to drain her completely, instantly, of her life-force. This is an actual insane feat both defensively and offensively - simultaneously.

I could also do that to Hulk, while he is helpless in orbit after the first fraction of the fight.

Now, I've expanded on Magneto's speed/multitasking in my OP pretty thoroughly, but just to give you another idea of simultaneous raw power, remember that ship which was so big, it was ravaging Earth's EM:

Well, Bishop , along with all of the other X-Men sucker punch Magneto and put it their all, simultaneously, continuously, on his shield. It is revealed that while all of this is happening, Magneto is actually holding the entire structure of Avlon together with his power:

Somehow, I don't think he'd have problems holding his shield against the single thunderclap pulse from far away, while floating the Hulk...

But since we're here, let's have an overview over some of what the shields have stopped:

- Jean Phoenix
- Galactus:
- Proteus reality warping:
- Thor and She-Hulk simultaneously and casually . Silver Age Magneto, about 3 upgrades ago,who could sometimes not even fly, had blocked Mjolnir.
- Multiple nuclear bombs
- entire X-Men team's power combined sucker-attacking him
- Vision, Scarlet Witch, Gorgon, Karnak and Black Bolt can't get through :

In short: All scenarios end up with Hulk in orbit, helpless, as I then slow his brain functions to unconsciousness or shut it down with the planetary level EMP.

Damborgson's final post, part 1
Concerning the Battlefield
Unless otherwise stated by the thread originator, the standard distance between combatants will be .5 kilometers in line of sight at the onset of battle, and there will be an implied "buzz" to signify the onset of battle. It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.

I didn't think there would be a need to cite the rules at Philo, but unless stated otherwise, we start within line of sight at each other. Otherwise we technically never agreed to starting .5km away either so... wink


Anyway, let's dig into this final post shall we?

So, let's assess some of these retorts:

Because the Hulk is .5km away, that means the force of his thundercalp is going to so dimished that it's easy pickings for Magneto?

This is by clapping his hands together, and Hulk was fully healed from the previous battle when he absorbed the Hulk's strength and then smashed it onto his head, before Hulk produced the one shot. That type of force, would be so powerful, at the very least it would give it me my moment needed, which I have made very clear is all I need in order to reach him nearly instantaneously and give him system the shock of his life.

Understand please, that Hulk clapping his hand produced a force so strong that it had a noticeably force behind it to Odin Force Thor going for the kill, by striking him to the head with Mjolnir as well as his later assault:

Compare that to Hulk:

This is the type of power that we're dealing with here. And Hulk isn't even connecting with his opponent. It's not that I like repping the differences in their ability, but that is some on panel evidence from the same writer that is valid for the purposes of the debate.

Do I think it'll rupture Magneto's shielding? No, not necessarily but I've never been arguing that. All I've been arguing is that the shock of the blow will be enough to at least catch Magneto's attention, just like the other forces were able to do.

Since it's a pain to quote Philo, I'll just do it the old fashioned way:

"In a move that was quite senseless, Damborg is using a scan of Iron Man using preparation and demagnetizing objects to surprise Magneto as proof of..uhm...something?
Or does Hulk get prep that I'm unaware of here? Perhaps a demagnetized, plastic spear built by Tony?"

That wasn't de-magnatized metal. It was wood lol. And we're on a New York City Block. I posted the scan as an example of what's going to be flying at Magneto, not just the shockwave that can stamp out Loeb Force Rulk. It'll be a plethora of non metalic objects, and here's the general consensus on how Magneto responds to non metals if he's not concentrating on them:

Suffice to say, he's got his weak spots, and I'll be flinging all of them at him. Es

Now I want to revisit Philo's opening strategy:

"I instantly raise a shield as I fly up, and cancel gravity around him, leaving Hulk floating helplessly:"

This is the strategy he has to stick by, and it's why he'll lose this match.

To my knowledge, that is one of the few if not only scans of Magneto reversing gravity that exists. And because it's not the same type of move as say your average metal slinging, it gets a few limitations to it. For one, Magneto proved he can reverse gravity in a short distance. He would need to be able to prove he has the same control over that ability that he does over his others that he can use at longer range. As it stands, he's got a feat on his hands with limits. Could he extend the feat out to Hulk? Possibly, but we'd need to see proof that he can do it as instantaneously as he claims. Regarding reversing gravity. It's just common sense. Otherwise we run into the no limit fallacy that thankfully exists to stop such instances.

And because that's such a huge staple for Philo's plan, it's the whole point of getting me into the air and whatnot, it should have to have better documented range than to simply assume Magneto can do it from a lengthy distance. It's too important and not well documented enough. Could that change? Perhaps, but it hasn't up until now. So what does that mean? It means Magneto has to stretch out his multitasking to do the gravity reversal and use sufficient power to make it effective in the first place, while at the same time tanking the oncoming blast of shockwaves, wood, plastic, etc that will be flying at him from a New York block.

It's the reason I didn't address most of Philo's phase 2, where I'm supposedly in the air and he's having his way with me. Because the way to getting there doesn't make much sense. It would have made entirely more sense for philo to simply attack me through the iron in my blood in the first place, but that didn't happen and it gave me what has worked out well in my favor, an opening.

But let's talk about this idea that Magneto can basically have his way with one of the most difficult to control creatures in Marvel comics:

Hank didn't even think or know that phasing could work on the Hulk, and even temporary success lasted seconds.

Darwin, who's literal power was to develop into the best possible solution for his opponent can't even hope to affect the amount of power within Hulk which he describes as endless.

He can't be teleported by Nightcrawler who's like the poster boy for teleportation in Marvel.

Hulk was surrounded by Xavier, Emma frost and Cuckoos and the thought of shutting him down isn't even on the table.

Why am I bringing this up? Because the Hulk wasn't made for such easy manipulation. This is the type of force that it takes to really put the hulk at a disadvantage:

So this premise that Magneto will play with the Hulk, it was flawed from the start. Magneto has never played with an opponent of Hulk's caliber, certainly not non holding back world war Hulk. And in order to without a doubt prove that something on the scale of what Phil proposes to work, it's only common sense to ask for more feats right? Because as it is, Magneto proved he can perform his opening strategy at short range and that's it. Now let's say that after all the debris hits Magneto with the force of a hurricane, a lot of which will go right through his shielding as he did not specify he's especially prepping his shields for anything other than his standard starting shielding. It's not the reflective shielding, or the catch all shielding, he just focused on his starter shields, the ones that if hit hard and fast enough, produce this:

So let's continue:

Sure, Magneto has been able to reach undisclosed reaction feats against lower level oppoenents than the Hulk with various contexts attached to them. In one of the feats, he actually got blitzed by Northstar, who supposedly doesn't hold a candle to Pietro, who also managed to land a hard shot on Magneto from quite the distance. But catching canonball and a leaping Red Hulk do not equal the speed necessary to catch the Hulk in this case.

It's the Hulk. A wise poster once said Hulk is Hulk, and it's never meant more than here, because the time necessary to reach Magneto will be less than one second, substantially.


Even if that rocket were traveling the slowest speeds possible, it would have crossed our starting distance in slightly over 2 seconds. But it's not, it's a a leader missile, it's obviously going at superior speeds, and the Hulk caught it in midflight with a leap. This is a legitimate super speed feat that grants the Hulk the ability to cover the gap in the space between a second.

As per Philo's own plan, he's not looking to redirect me, he think he's going to anti gravity me from a distance that he hasn't proven to be able to instantly do, instead he'll be assailed by the wave of destruction that comes his way and my CHARGE which he called a simple leap again. I'm bee lining his ass, this is not a leap onto the Baxter building that storm can redirect while I'm landing. It's entirely different, much quicker, much more powerful, and with all the ill intent that a non holding back Hulk can bring.

Imagine this leap:

Except straight line only .5km away. It's not going to end well and there are no feats for redirecting that type of power, it's not a nuke which jobs in comics all the time, it's the Hulk.

So I think I can say that I've proven that Hulk can cross the gap that Philo has been proven to be vulnerable at.

The Madder Hulk Gets...

Through the debate I feel like I neglected Hulk's staple power set, his ability to grow even stronger. Of course its progressive, and it gets worse as long as the fight goes on. I'm gonna give Philo the full benefit of the doubt, that he does somehow get me off my feet. I can just clap again laughing out loud with each clap getting progressively stronger and more difficult to deal with. If he wants to restrain my arms, which he said he isn't: " I'm NOT trying to stop him from moving his hands, or anything like that" then he'll be pitting his strength against mine and that will be that.

Damborgson's final post, part 2
Thanks for everything guys, I'm out of room. I think I've done enough to show why this isn't in Mags' favor, but thank you for everything all. Though arguing for the Hulk was far more trouble than it's worth lol. Thanks again Philo thumb up was fun.

Philosophia's final post

Penultimate chapter - Magneto has a counter for everything

Well, I caught my opponent red-handed and he had to focus on literally the first moment of the battle, otherwise all is lost for him.

I obviously can't read his last post but, suffice to say, there were zero arguments that the fight doesn't end the moment it starts as I lift him off the ground into orbit, using the myriad of methods I have at my disposal , and make him lose consciousness - or do literally anything I want with him since he's helpless in air.
I might just one-shot him like Silver Age Magneto has done:

That said:

Since I ran out of space in my last one, let's get a bit deeper here into his sole argument against losing - the awesome thunderclap, second only to the Entropy - perhaps even greater, since it can destroy a Universe instantly!
I want, for a moment, to ignore the fact that the fight doesn't start with them right next to eachother. And also that Magneto has shields which have withstood everything from Mjolnir, to Phoenix, to Galactus. And also as the fact that there's no stipulation that we're seeing eachother from where we're standing.

Let's just focus...on the thunderclap itself. Now, in my very first post, I showed Magneto being able to warp and return on the opponent these kind of offense:

It's only fitting that I show how the thunderclap itself is warped, in return, by the exact same thing:

slower than the speed of sound]

One very important thing is that I don't have to redirect all of the thunderclap. It's a wave coming from .5 miles away . Now, the closest thing to an analogy that comes to mind is a wave at the beach. When the wave slams into you , you didn't take the full, 300 meters wide force, wave. Just the narrow part of it that got to your person. The thunderclap also, obviously, loses power with distance - also something to keep in mind given where we start.

So....yeah. If it feels like I'm just beating a dead horse here, it's because...there's nothing else he has tackled, and has tacitly conceded 95% of my OP.

Damborg also brought up Hulk's physical durability - when I made it a point that's just a distraction. It's weird to see him bring up adamantium, when it was shown as specifically going through WWH like butter:
And again:
We have X-23's claws cutting his eyes out. We have Wolverine cutting his eyes out. We have Skaar piercing WBH with sand/earth.
Magneto has, besides everything around him, the nano-edged projectiles to do damage. Since I'm on the topic, and I might as well post some scans I have at hand, Magneto's molecular control over metal allows him to change its molecular structure and strengthen even the constitution of steel by a factor of 1000, casually:

I had scans, just in case there was an attempt to counter to Magneto making him lose unconsciousness with the iron in the blood, or the EMP..but that never came.
Hulk has lost consciousness just from a momentary brain haemorrhage:

Magneto literally controls all the blood to his brain. I won't pop just one blood vessel and give him the time to fall, regenerate and recover - I'll destroy them all, again and again *cue evil laughter* One of my tactics was of that slowing it down until he loses consciousness , but this would work just fine.

Besides planetary level EMPs shutting down his brain, Magneto is also able to control the entire nervous systems. The last time that part of Hulk got attacked with an attack focusing on that, so that Cable could pull remove Onslaught's control, Storm put too much into it and accidentally killed Hulk, then had to revive him....

Meanwhile, Magneto can control and replace the entire nervous system of a Celestial, and he does this continuously for 3 issues while the team goes and confronts Mr. Sinister:

no expression

So let's get to...

Last Chapter - the Overview

I want to put a bit of focus on the bigger picture.

Dear judges, I'd like to do an exercise .

In the first scenario, I'm standing up. Focus on a single point in front of you. Now, try to slam your hands together and then jump precisely in that spot.

In the second scenario, I'd like you to look at that same spot. Now, just think "Shield. Hulk up."

That's it.

Which one took longer?

I'm pretty sure you finished those thoughts before you even slammed your hands together, nevermind jumped.

Now, imagine that the scenario might be that the object is somewhere around you, and you have to look for it in the first scenario, direct your body towards it, and do the same actions.

In the 2nd scenario, you just sense where it is, and also think "Shield. Hulk up.".

Which one took longer?

Those are the starting scenarios for the start of the fight.

Now, let's take some other facts into account. In the 2nd scenario, your powers have enhanced your nervous system], that you can think so fast that you can react to teleportation as it's happening]. That you can think fast enough to follow what is basically a photon +]. That your mind works so fast, that you can do half a dozen things simultaneously

Hulk would have left off for orbit before the thunderclap would even reach Magneto, if he even manages to make it.

I've also touched on this before, but the thunderclap isn't continuous, it's a single 'blast' for a lack of a better world. That's a mistake Damborg made, when he compared it to optic blasts or whomever. Even if he got one off, by the time he jumped and reached me, Magneto would already have redirected/shielded from it, and Hulk would just be instantly sent into orbit.

Since I have it at hand, in order to give you another idea on the scale he operates, here's a feat that is orders and orders of magnitude above what is required here. In hours upon hours of power usage, he grabs a planet-destroying bullet from another solar system light-years away], changes its direction 180 degrees, moves it back into our own solar system, to Earth, then desintegrates it, while separating a phased Kitty from it and shielding himself from everything that can be considered physical/psychic:

Speaking of which...Magneto doesn't have to stop him dead, even if he can. It's in my advantage that I simply redirect his momentum upwards .

Even if we give him, literally all the benefits of a doubt, and Magneto somehow doesn't do anything because of...uh... the holocaust flashbacks or something...Hulk would only get one-shot which Magneto can block:
...and his next thought is sending Hulkolossus into orbit.
Heck, Sue has blocked several WWHulk strikes and had an entire dialogue with him as he was trying to get past the shield to Reed:
...Magneto wouldn't give him that option and instantly remove him.

Once he is up, he is not coming down, since gravity is nullified around him. Magneto has a plethora of options - slow the blood and KO, make a continuous, massive hemorrhage in the brain KOing him, take control of his nervous system KOing him, planetary-EMP his brain, twist the EM field to drain him and more. I can take my time and win this fight in any number of ways.


With that said, I appreciate Damborg a lot for taking this, when our infamous Hulk fan shied away from it.

This has been enjoyable as hell.

All my respect to him thumb up

Martian mind
What a match, ladies and gentlemen. The Master of Magnetism, versus the Jade Giant himself. Both sides argued well, presenting their arguments and evidence in clear, concise posts.

From the get-go, it was apparent that the outcome depended on the early-game. Could Magneto fend-off the Hulk long enough to make use of his diversity? Or would he be overwhelmed by the beast's sheer might, as so many have been in the past? Dambo argued the latter, proposing that a thunderclap, combined with the Hulk's oft underestimated speed, would be enough to close the gap. He argued this point well, yet failed to properly debunk Magneto's ability to redirect the soundwaves, and was unable to convince me that his speed was beyond Erik's ability to match.

Where he did succeed, however, were in his observations about Magneto's gravity
control. Phil failed to show us the range of such an ability, leaving it questionable as to whether he could successfully use it at a distance. This was a hollow victory, however, as gravity was far from Magneto's only option, as Phil successfully displayed. The fact that this Hulk is wearing armor, and possess iron in his blood, were all points that Phil addressed, and incorporated into his strategy.

This is what sealed the match. For while Dambo did very well in arguing the initial phase, I felt as though he neglected to address what happened beyond. He had no real counter for Magneto's diversity, beyond the idea that he'd keep clapping. However, as the giant bullet scan shows, Magneto can perform complex feats, from a distance, for extremely long periods of time. He'd have no need to approach Hulk, rendering any further claps redundant. From this relative safety, it would then be a simple task for Erik to dismantle him, as Phil successfully showed.

For this reason, I am giving the match to Philosophia. It was well-argued on both sides, yet at the end of the day, Magneto's sheer diversity, coupled with Phil's more comprehensive arguments, won him the day.

Cosmic Comet
Ok. This one was a doozy. Props to both debators, both are great guys and had an honest clean debate. I have no particular love for either character so I could truly look at the arguments without a shade of bias in either direction. With that said, I have to give the win to Philo here, which was a bit surprising to me as this thread includes WWH of all versions, not just any old version of Hulk.

The speed argument for magneto was simply too strong, and while hulk has some great (really great) speed feats as well, my boy Damb didn't present them. A few low showings for hulk's constitution didn't convince that magneto could put him down necessarily, but on the other hand there just wasn't an argument that could counter the old dirty bastard's shields. Mags with the Insta bfr.

First of all, great job with the scans from both Damb and Philo. Now on to my verdict. Hulk has more power overall than Magneto, but it's close. Magneto is by FAR more versatile. It's not even close. Various scans in this thread all but prove it.

So, IMHO, Magneto wins. Like Philo said, his shields ARE powerful enough to weather the Hulk's attacks long enough for Magneto to win via iron manipulation in the blood. The scans show, Magneto has ridiculous reaction times and is fast enough to both shield himself AND take to the air to avoid the Hulk especially with the .5km starting distance between them (I can't believe Damb agreed to this starting distance but oh well). Once shielded and airborne there's little Hulk can do to take him down before Magneto ganks him. That hemorrhage scan was brutal and damning.

Good BZ guys!

Winner: Philosophia, with Magneto

so, not needed. awesome. thumb up

well done, both of you guys. this is what a bz should look like. congrats phil on the w and to damborg for the solid show casing of hulk.

Damn guys sorry I was late. Planned to PM DS my vote tonight.

Still had closing posts to read but as it stands unless something pretty major came up my vote would jave agreed with the other judges. Mags versatility and all.
👍👍👍 great job both of you. Damborg Ive already pilfered a lot of of your scans for a tourney im in elsewhere where I'm using Hulks body in an amalgum with Wildstorm kratos mind.

Excellent BZ both of u

Blair Wind
thumb up Good job guys.

Good job!

Solid read!

Never did know magnus was that versatile and powerful. Congrats to both contributors for their extensive research and high esteem for each other. This bz was definitely a breath of fresh air to those who were able to muster up enough willpower when reading through baziemarc's horrendous arguments that are full of bias and lack of respect.

Much appreciated guys thumb up

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