Snoke vs sidious

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DarthPlaguis12
Both go all out

Round 1 is Snoke vs canon Sidious

Round 2 is Snoke vs Legends Sidious

Kurk
Oh gawd you're going to summon The Quanchi!!

DarthPlaguis12
So ignore him, I say Sidious wins round 1 just because of his saber skills, round tw9 he stomps the crippled mofo

Kurk
I mean feat-wise Sidious has to win both Canon and EU. Canon you could argue the disruption Sheev felt as an indication of his power, but I wouldn't bet all my money just on that.

Snoke is a crippled mofo and can't fight in the first place. Perhaps he's like Skere Kaan in where his telepathic abilities are unrivaled but he's mediocre in every other category. Who knows.

DarthPlaguis12

relentless1
Sidious easily in both

if we follow combat feats of course... Quan im looking at you princess....

Zentrex
Here I come with my controversial opinions. Sheev in canon has done nothing, combatively, as impressive as Snoke.

But yeah, legends Sheev will rip Snoke apart piece by piece.

Galan007
As of now, Palpatine stomps in both canon and Legends. And easily.

DarthPlaguis12

Trocity
Round 2 isn't even worth discussing, lmao.

Sidious farts, Snoke crumbles.

The Merchant
Palpatine both. Snoke salivating over Vaders power is a dead ringer for me.

DarthPlaguis12
Hmmm thank you for pointing that out

Freedon Nadd
It is ironic that Snoke means Fallback or Retreat.

Darth Horror
What do you mean ?

Sinious
This is even funnier than Vader vs Kylo

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk


Snoke is a crippled mofo and can't fight in the first place.


Exactly. Theres a reason he wouldnt meet Kylo face to face without his guards there.

As for his unrivalled Telepathic abilities, they cant be that great given his own apprentice hid his true intentions from him while flat out killing him.

quanchi112
Snoke destroys Sheev. Typical biased onstinatestsr wars self hating fanbase. Let the past die you insufferable vagabonds.

Zentrex
Originally posted by The Merchant
Palpatine both. Snoke salivating over Vaders power is a dead ringer for me.

Was that in the novelization? May I get a quote?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is ironic that Snoke means Fallback or Retreat.

In what language? I thought it meant fish.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Exactly. Theres a reason he wouldnt meet Kylo face to face without his guards there.

As for his unrivalled Telepathic abilities, they cant be that great given his own apprentice hid his true intentions from him while flat out killing him.

I think the guards are there just in case, because if he gets hit once, he's done. I don't think that says anything offensively, though

And the reason he didn't see properly into Kylo's mind was because of his hubris. Kylo tricked him.

DarthPlaguis12
Since when do you deal in quotes

The praetorians were trained to kill Luke.

Zentrex
Snoke thought that the big scary power in the force he felt was Luke, but it was in fact Rey. It was her untapped potential that he thought was more powerful than him, so it's not like he thought Kylo or anyone else was powerful enough to kill him.

DarthPlaguis12

Zentrex
Right, I never said she could.

quanchi112
So no convincing arguments from the Palp camp. Concessions accepted across the board.

DarthPlaguis12
I win

Sinious

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by quanchi112
So no convincing arguments from the Palp camp. Concessions accepted across the board.

In fairness, you also didn't make an argument.

Freedon Nadd
"snoke" in English
volume_upsnoke {vb}EN
to rout

Freedon Nadd
Legend has sometimes bias in his arguments with Vitiate, but it's clearly he is not a retarded person(lack of understanding of the context) like the Sheevites are.

Also, stop taking on people without a reason.

Give me a reason as to why my skills or Legend's skills suck? Or you are nothing more but a low-class troll?

The way I see it - you are just a cocky chicken who views persons he/she doesn't like them.

For example, I may not like Shooting Nova, but I do admit he clearly knows how to debate.

Grow up and stop being such a wuss.

Trocity
Freedump nadds u suck.

TheIndyJedi
Snoke is stated to be more powerful than Sidious by Andy Serkis

TheIndyJedi
Problem is we have no saber feats for Snoke

Trocity
LOL.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
"snoke" in English
volume_upsnoke {vb}EN
to rout

Can't find that anywhere on the internet. Only that some ~800 people have the last name "Snoke" in the United States.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Problem is we have no saber feats for Snoke
Snoke is also stated to be vulnerable because of his physicality by Andy Serkis. I think Snoke's probably combat-effective, in that if he has to deal with someone on his level or slightly below, basically anyone with a force barrier powerful enough to tank his attacks, Snoke is pretty much screwed.

Because his physicality makes him so weak that even a minor hit might just kill him. It's just that he's so powerful, there's not many people who can get a hit on him.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Zentrex
Here I come with my controversial opinions. Sheev in canon has done nothing, combatively, as impressive as Snoke.

But yeah, legends Sheev will rip Snoke apart piece by piece. He stalemated Yoda. Yoda held back a ****ing moving mountain for instance

Zentrex
Originally posted by One Big Mob
He stalemated Yoda. Yoda held back a ****ing moving mountain for instance

I'm pretty sure he was amped. The planet and the mountain, was made out of the bluestone, which directly channels the living force.

And before you say that we saw it hindering Yoda before, I think that's because Yoda didn't know how to use it before. It's like cleats. If you don't know what you're doing, your ability to run will be severly hindered. If you do know what you're doing, you'll be greatly amplified.

Galan007
It wasn't stated or implied in the comics themselves that Yoda was amped(feel free to reread the issues yourself if you don't believe me.)

It was a oneness-esque feat that occurred in a moment of duress. It was an outlier, sure, but it was not an amped feat.

quanchi112

quanchi112

DarthPlaguis12
Snoke would die

quanchi112

relentless1
Sidious:

- Throws Senate pods around like baseballs which must be around a ton each

- His Lightning has been shown to kill (Mace) and maim (Luke)

- He effortlessly destroyed the Maul bros in saber combat

- He killed 3 out of 4 Jedi Council members sent to arrest him within seconds with his lightsaber; fast enough to get the drop on them easily

- stalemated Yoda who was the greatest warrior in the Jedi Order at that time; Yoda own feats from the PT and TCW back up his battle prowess

- despite being uber powerful with the Force he managed to conceal himself from the Jedi for decades while interacting with them on a daily basis

- was also telepathic, able to enter Anakins mind before his turn in order to influence his decision

- was able to Force choke Dooku, another powerful Force user from lightyears away through a hologram



Snoke:

- used lighting to knock Kylo on his ass

- managed to connect Kylo and Reys minds; a pretty decent feat but one with no battle applications

- slapped Hux around, a normal human around from what is presumed to be lightyears away with the Force

- is able to read minds..poorly it would seem as he was blindsided by his apprentices true intentions

- is able to extract info from minds even with raw power such as Reys


Snoke just doesnt have the feats to go up against Sidious in a one one one battle; its painfully clear that while he may have had the POTENTIAL going by his scarce onscreen feats now that hes dead hes severely limited in showings that can go up against Palpatines.

Snoke loses badly when you compare their feats

Zenwolf
Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious:

- Throws Senate pods around like baseballs which must be around a ton each

- His Lightning has been shown to kill (Mace) and maim (Luke)

- He effortlessly destroyed the Maul bros in saber combat

- He killed 3 out of 4 Jedi Council members sent to arrest him within seconds with his lightsaber; fast enough to get the drop on them easily

- stalemated Yoda who was the greatest warrior in the Jedi Order at that time; Yoda own feats from the PT and TCW back up his battle prowess

- despite being uber powerful with the Force he managed to conceal himself from the Jedi for decades while interacting with them on a daily basis

- was also telepathic, able to enter Anakins mind before his turn in order to influence his decision

- was able to Force choke Dooku, another powerful Force user from lightyears away through a hologram



Snoke:

- used lighting to knock Kylo on his ass

- managed to connect Kylo and Reys minds; a pretty decent feat but one with no battle applications

- slapped Hux around, a normal human around from what is presumed to be lightyears away with the Force

- is able to read minds..poorly it would seem as he was blindsided by his apprentices true intentions

- is able to extract info from minds even with raw power such as Reys


Snoke just doesnt have the feats to go up against Sidious in a one one one battle; its painfully clear that while he may have had the POTENTIAL going by his scarce onscreen feats now that hes dead hes severely limited in showings that can go up against Palpatines.

Snoke loses badly when you compare their feats

Eh there's always previous material to explore, so Snoke could get stuff there.

DarthPlaguis12

Galan007
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Eh there's always previous material to explore, so Snoke could get stuff there. Indeed... And I, for one, certainly hope Snoke's backstory is expanded on in future works, just like Sheev's was. Given his origins, that could make for some good storytelling, imo.

That said, we can only go by the evidence *at hand*... And as of right now, Snoke has no quantifiable feats that put him in the same ballpark as Palpatine overall. The fact that a few people are using an actor's opinion to try and 'prove' Snoke's power should show you how little he has in the way of legitimate feats/showings. /shrug

One Big Mob
Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious:

- Throws Senate pods around like baseballs which must be around a ton each

- His Lightning has been shown to kill (Mace) and maim (Luke)

- He effortlessly destroyed the Maul bros in saber combat

- He killed 3 out of 4 Jedi Council members sent to arrest him within seconds with his lightsaber; fast enough to get the drop on them easily

- stalemated Yoda who was the greatest warrior in the Jedi Order at that time; Yoda own feats from the PT and TCW back up his battle prowess

- despite being uber powerful with the Force he managed to conceal himself from the Jedi for decades while interacting with them on a daily basis

- was also telepathic, able to enter Anakins mind before his turn in order to influence his decision

- was able to Force choke Dooku, another powerful Force user from lightyears away through a hologram



Snoke:

- used lighting to knock Kylo on his ass

- managed to connect Kylo and Reys minds; a pretty decent feat but one with no battle applications

- slapped Hux around, a normal human around from what is presumed to be lightyears away with the Force

- is able to read minds..poorly it would seem as he was blindsided by his apprentices true intentions

- is able to extract info from minds even with raw power such as Reys


Snoke just doesnt have the feats to go up against Sidious in a one one one battle; its painfully clear that while he may have had the POTENTIAL going by his scarce onscreen feats now that hes dead hes severely limited in showings that can go up against Palpatines.

Snoke loses badly when you compare their feats Seems very close when you put it like that

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed... And I, for one, certainly hope Snoke's backstory is expanded on in future works, just like Sheev's was. Given his origins, that could make for some good storytelling, imo.

That said, we can only go by the evidence *at hand*... And as of right now, Snoke has no quantifiable feats that put him in the same ballpark as Palpatine overall. The fact that a few people are using an actor's opinion to try and 'prove' Snoke's power should show you how little he has in the way of legitimate feats/showings. /shrug

If his injuries is any indication(along with his Guards), then that means his prime wouldn't be TLJ. Since the explosion ambush or whatever the Resistance did, did cripple him. So'd make sense TLJ wouldn't really be an indication of being powerful...well as far as like being very.

relentless1
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Seems very close when you put it like that

how do ya figure??

Force Lightning: Sidious >> Snoke

- Kill/maim vs knock down... no explanation needed really

Force usage: Sidious > Snoke

- both were able to use the Force through holograms from far away but Snoke hasn't been seen using it to lift anywhere near as heavy as Sidious

Saber skills Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snoke

- no explanation needed





in conclusion, Sids rapes Snoke

Zenwolf
Originally posted by relentless1
how do ya figure??

Force Lightning: Sidious >> Snoke

- Kill/maim vs knock down... no explanation needed really

Force usage: Sidious > Snoke

- both were able to use the Force through holograms from far away but Snoke hasn't been seen using it to lift anywhere near as heavy as Sidious

Saber skills Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snoke

- no explanation needed





in conclusion, Sids rapes Snoke

How was Luke maimed by Sidious' lighting? I mean he was tortured yeah, but afterwards he wasn't like scarred or anything.

More to that, trying to compare Snoke's instance to Sidious' seems a little silly since obviously Snoke wasn't trying to kill Kylo.

I mean I won't argue that Sidious doesn't kill him, but the comparison there just doesn't add up.

relentless1
Sids wasn't trying to kill Luke either he was toying with him, point is we've seen superior lightning feats from the Emperor than from Snoke and im sure we can all agree on that point


... and Luke couldve been maimed we dont know what he looks like under that tunic!!

Zenwolf
Originally posted by relentless1
Sids wasn't trying to kill Luke either he was toying with him, point is we've seen superior lightning feats from the Emperor than from Snoke and im sure we can all agree on that point


... and Luke couldve been maimed we dont know what he looks like under that tunic!!

He was however torturing Luke with multiple bursts, Snoke's burst on Kylo just seemed more like slapping some sense into someone. Still though Sidious has the superior feats as where combat application goes.

quanchi112

DarthPlaguis12

relentless1
lol then what does determine superiority Quan ya dumb f*ck?? an actor saying so??? all we have is feats, its not my fault that they dont support your guy, I noticed that you dont ever back your claims up with any feats when you know there isn't for your guy... you just try to bulls*t your way out... just let it go man you've lost this one... you should be used to that feeling by now

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
It wasn't stated or implied in the comics themselves that Yoda was amped(feel free to reread the issues yourself if you don't believe me.)

It was a oneness-esque feat that occurred in a moment of duress. It was an outlier, sure, but it was not an amped feat.

Well, even though I would argue that it still was an amped feat (nothing "implies" that Anakin's Mortis feat was amped, either), my point still stands, that Yoda has so far done nothing as powerful as Snoke's bond feat.

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious:

- Throws Senate pods around like baseballs which must be around a ton each

- His Lightning has been shown to kill (Mace) and maim (Luke)

- He killed 3 out of 4 Jedi Council members sent to arrest him within seconds with his lightsaber; fast enough to get the drop on them easily

- He effortlessly destroyed the Maul bros in saber combat


These show Sidious' powers are tremendous, but really no mention of power which doesn't outstrip the force bond feat is worth mentioning.



But Yoda's never shown an ability stronger than Snoke's force bond either, so even that's not worth all that much.



In canon, it was more due to the clone wars clouding the jedi's powers rather than Palpatine directly himself.



That's not really that impressive, especially compared to Snoke calling Sidious to the unknown regions and knowing the events of the destruction of Death Star II when he wasn't even there.



Dooku wouldn't have resisted in that moment. He was being chastised by his master. It's an impressive feat, yes, but it's not even as powerful as Snoke chastising Hux.



But it is a good display of his power. You interpret the feat as being "decent", but it's implied to be part of the lost knowledge from the unknown regions. The only moments we've seen it done other than Snoke and Luke is through a ritual connecting Dooku and Yoda and an ancient sith holocron connecting Maul and Ezra.
This feat shows the kind of stuff he knows about the force, something hidden from the Jedi and Sith for centuries, if not millenia. And it could imply combative application, as we see he can teleport matter and people through it.



What's even more impressive is he asked Kylo in TFA to bring Rey to him, implying that he could do to Rey what he did in TLJ even from lightyears away.



That was a display of his overconfidence, not his weakness. He could read minds well, he just was fooled by Kylo's intentions, when Kylo felt that he wanted to "turn his lightsaber and kill his true enemy."



Mostly because we've never been shown his upper limit. We saw Sidious stalemating Talzin and Yoda, and not being able to understand what was calling to him from the unknown regions. And I'd still argue his Force bond feat is more impressive.

Zentrex
Originally posted by relentless1
how do ya figure??

Force Lightning: Sidious >> Snoke

- Kill/maim vs knock down... no explanation needed really

Force usage: Sidious > Snoke

- both were able to use the Force through holograms from far away but Snoke hasn't been seen using it to lift anywhere near as heavy as Sidious

Saber skills Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snoke

- no explanation needed





in conclusion, Sids rapes Snoke

Sidious' hologram in rebels was not of the force.

relentless1
Dooku connecting to Yoda was done by Sidious so all you've done is give me yet another good Sidious feat of his arcane Force knowledge

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Eh there's always previous material to explore, so Snoke could get stuff there.


So argue it at that time.

But I think its pretty obvious to most of us that a throwaway villain will never be proven to be on par with Sidious.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Zentrex
Dooku wouldn't have resisted in that moment. He was being chastised by his master. It's an impressive feat, yes, but it's not even as powerful as Snoke chastising Hux.

Wait what

Zentrex
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Wait what

When your master chastises you, you don't resist. Dooku wouldn't have put up a force barrier. Thus, Snoke fully ragdolling someone from lightyears away > Sidious choking someone from lightyears away.

It's irrelevant, since Sidious probably could ragdoll someone from lightyears away anyway, but it's just that it's not more impressive than Snoke.

Zentrex
Originally posted by relentless1
Dooku connecting to Yoda was done by Sidious so all you've done is give me yet another good Sidious feat of his arcane Force knowledge

Snoke also had knowledge of how to create force bonds, and he did it without a ritual. Well, we don't know that, but he did it on a whim, and apparently without Kylo's knowledge, whereas Sidious needed a long winded ritual which required Dooku's blood and involvement.

So this doesn't do anything for Sidious.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Zentrex
When your master chastises you, you don't resist. Dooku wouldn't have put up a force barrier. Thus, Snoke fully ragdolling someone from lightyears away > Sidious choking someone from lightyears away.

It's irrelevant, since Sidious probably could ragdoll someone from lightyears away anyway, but it's just that it's not more impressive than Snoke. So Dooku wouldn't know what to expect when Sidious is angry? Nor was he trying to resist when he was frantically clawing at his own throat and being lifted in the air?

We're also under the assumption that Dooku's "resting defenses" are on par with Hux's? Ventress should have just choked him in his sleep instead of trying to poison and ambush him.

Zentrex
Originally posted by One Big Mob
So Dooku wouldn't know what to expect when Sidious is angry? Nor was he trying to resist when he was frantically clawing at his own throat and being lifted in the air?

We're also under the assumption that Dooku's "resting defenses" are on par with Hux's? Ventress should have just choked him in his sleep instead of trying to poison and ambush him.

No, not intentionally. You don't resist in the presence of your superior. The clawing at the throat is a natural human response, nothing can be done about it.

You can take your resting defenses down, can't you?

quanchi112

relentless1
Sidious' feats paint a picture of superiority, Snoke has barely any feats to speak of when it comes to a one v one fight; your conjectures about who Lukes afraid of and all that bs... if you want context then here it is: Luke was afraid of Reys potential... key word is POTENTIAL... Snoke was able to rag Rey because she's nowhere near reached hers... is that really hard to understand for you??

DarthPlaguis12

DarthPlaguis12
Originally posted by Zentrex
Snoke also had knowledge of how to create force bonds, and he did it without a ritual. Well, we don't know that, but he did it on a whim, and apparently without Kylo's knowledge, whereas Sidious needed a long winded ritual which required Dooku's blood and involvement.

So this doesn't do anything for Sidious.

He just used another method ya ****, did you even see the scene? He used dookues blood because dooku had a connection with Yoda.

DarthPlaguis12

Sinious
@Zentrex, you do realize that even Vader has much better feats than Snoke, right?

DarthPlaguis12
Nah he thinks some mind bridge and force choking a non human is just wow and that Luke in TLJ was somehow better then yoda n Sidious

Zentrex

Sinious
Originally posted by Zentrex
Unless Vader's got some celestial feats, he doesn't have anything on the force bridge. No telekinetic feat, unless it's the kind of thing legends did, will ever be superior to the force bridge. You're attacking this concept from many different angles, but what you have to prove to me is that the Force bridge isn't one of an ancient, lost, powerful abilities which can defend against the creatures from the unknown regions, and the likes of which Vader and Sidious were confounded by.
Because that's what has ultimately convinced me, and what will ultimately unconvince me, unless you actually do have some celestial feat in canon. No, I don't have to prove why the bridge feat doesn't put Snoke above Sidious. You have to explain why one non combat applicable and near impossible to quantify force feat puts him above the GOAT.

Regarding what you said in response to DP12: I haven't read what was said before, but I don't understand why you guys assume what Snoke did is the exact same of what Palpatine did with Dooku and Yoda. More importantly, is it stated that Snoke didn't use any form of ritual to pull it off?

The most important question is, how do any of this keep Vader from force choking Snoke?

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Zentrex
No, not intentionally. You don't resist in the presence of your superior. The clawing at the throat is a natural human response, nothing can be done about it.

You can take your resting defenses down, can't you? And protecting from the force is a natural reaction from a force wielder. Why would he keep his wits about him not to try and save his life because he's scared of Sidious? There's a difference between not questioning someone and doing all you can to not get choked. It doesn't have to be offense against Sidious, it just has to be some protection.
You yourself already admitted he could have likely choked him anyway, so why are we assuming he just had no defenses in place or set them up when he was trying to stop getting choked, and what would it matter?

Plus the Sith training we've seen has a lot to do with the Masters shitting on the students and forcing them to do something.


I can't, not to that degree. However, now we're under the assumption that Dooku's resting defenses would be under some none force sensitive? How does that make sense? What is stopping some Sith Academy trainee from choking Dooku from another room if that's the case? Why wouldn't Ventress just choke him to death in his sleep? Etc
The people who have choked other Force Users have been massively powerful in the force. Even Savage's rage was played up severely when he did it to Dooku.


But let's shift it away from the distance here since that's what this feat is (unquantifiable distances so we assume equal ground).
A Stormtrooper and one of the most powerful Jedi of all times who then gets his powers amped by being a Sith are just standing in the same room.

Are we to believe that it'd be harder to ragdoll the Stormtrooper than it would be to force choke and levitate the *unnamed* Sith Lord?

Rockydonovang
there's holistic arguments to be made for snoke.

Feat wise, clouding the jedi order and unbalancing the galaxy prolly beats Snoke's light year feat.

Sidious is likely the better combatant anyway by virtue of being virtually unparalleled in swordmanship.

DarthPlaguis12

Galan007
The willful ignorance demonstrated in this thread is cringe-worthy, tbh.

I feel like Zentrex has to be trolling at this point.

DarthPlaguis12
Yup, I sense he is

One Big Mob
Zentrex just loves blowing Snoke up your anus holes imo.

Galan007
You're in this too, bran.

Zentrex was tongueslapping you right in your Snoke-hole... Vigorously, tbh. thumb up

quanchi112

relentless1
lmao... quan youre a terrible troll... the guy who constantly likes to use context to explain batman v superman is really gonna ignore context here eh?? obviously Luke was startled by Reys sudden viciousness... at NO POINT in that skirmish did she have the upper hand on him... notice that he had caught himself with the Force before he even touched ground....youre a hypocrite and i dont deal with hypocrites because you people dont have a proper tether to reality so im just wasting my time... fact is the Snoke has no feats to back up your claims that he'd beat Sidious in a fight... your retorts are cringeworthy and devoid of merit, learn to live with the shame of your defeat here pleb

Darth Thor
^ thumb up

Quan lectures on context when it suits him (Khan getting his ass beat by Spock and Uhura), but likes to blatantly troll and ignore blatant context when context doesnt suit him.

Best thing is to ignore him when he does that. Hes literally the only KMC member who claims Superman cant take Batman.

But 99% just ignore him when hes taking his trolling to those levels. Best to do the same thing here with Luke and Rey. (When Rey like a psychotic pulled out a Lightsaber against Luke in a Stick fight LOL)

DarthPlaguis12

Zentrex
Originally posted by Sinious
No, I don't have to prove why the bridge feat doesn't put Snoke above Sidious. You have to explain why one non combat applicable and near impossible to quantify force feat puts him above the GOAT.

Sheev stalemated Mother Talzin in the new canon, so maybe he's not as far above everyone as he was in legends. And I know he's grown since then, because of Lords of the Sith but it just goes on to show that it's more likely he's not the GOAT.



Sidious was stated to create a "dark illusion" in Yoda's mind by taking advantage of the bond him and Dooku had in the force. Snoke was stated to take advantage of the bond Rey and Kylo had. (I'll admit this is also a little shaky, since Johnson confirmed Luke used the same power at the end of TLJ, so maybe a pre-existing bond wasn't necesary, as it was Sidious' feat.)

The reason I think Snoke didn't use a ritual is because in Sidious' ritual Dooku actually had to create the dark illusion, whereas when Snoke did it, Kylo didn't even realize it was Snoke.



He probably has a greater force barrier. As I said, he used some unknown power to call to the mind of Sidious from the unknown regions, and knew what happened on the second death star before it exploded. This might be proof he's penetrated Vader's and Palpatine's force barriers before. Galan didn't accept it because "it wasn't confirmed", but there's no reason Chuck Wendig would have put that into the book if it wasn't Snoke.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
And protecting from the force is a natural reaction from a force wielder. Why would he keep his wits about him not to try and save his life because he's scared of Sidious? There's a difference between not questioning someone and doing all you can to not get choked.

Sidious was showing him his authority. Resisting his actions, therefore resisting his authority, would have been the worst possible thing to do.



It wouldn't matter. We really shouldn't be talking about this, of all the comments I made. The reason I think he had no defenses up is because he didn't need the defenses, it's not like Sidious would have actually crippled or killed him.



Not injuring them to a point where they're less useful in the master's grand plan.


Your defenses can be retroactively put up in order to protect you, and your defenses can be taken down to show your master that you're not challenging them.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
there's holistic arguments to be made for snoke.

Feat wise, clouding the jedi order and unbalancing the galaxy prolly beats Snoke's light year feat.

See, people keep thinking of Sheev as we knew him. This is a different Sheev. He never unbalanced the Galaxy. And without the other uber-powerful feats, there's no reason to think that the clouding of the jedi's mind was due to Sids' force powers rather than the Clone Wars.



That gives him a fighting chance, but he's still less powerful in the force.

Originally posted by Galan007
The willful ignorance demonstrated in this thread is cringe-worthy, tbh.

I feel like Zentrex has to be trolling at this point.

You have no idea how stupid I can be.

DarthPlaguis12

relentless1
canaon Sids most certainly did unbalance the Force; its stated in the films that the Dark Side clouds everything and the Dark Side has left the Force out of balance and the only dark sider around was Sidious

Zentrex
^ But it's also stated that the Clone Wars was the cause of the jedi losing their way and the dark side growing. This was in TCW mostly, but also in the films.

Zentrex

DarthPlaguis12

relentless1
Originally posted by Zentrex
^ But it's also stated that the Clone Wars was the cause of the jedi losing their way and the dark side growing. This was in TCW mostly, but also in the films.

Mace explicitly says "I think it is time we inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force is diminished" thats in ATOC; before the Clone Wars

quanchi112

quanchi112

Zentrex
Originally posted by relentless1
Mace explicitly says "I think it is time we inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force is diminished" thats in ATOC; before the Clone Wars

hm...
So you're saying that Sidious did indeed cloud the mind of all jedi at their peak? Well...you've convinced me. Sidious' mind-clouding feat it superior to Snoke's force bridge.

Darth Thor
Also there may well have already been a natural force connection between Kylo and Rey, given Reys power was the Force responding to Kylos power.

So the bridging feat may not be as Uber as some like to make out.

quanchi112

relentless1
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also there may well have already been a natural force connection between Kylo and Rey, given Reys power was the Force responding to Kylos power.

So the bridging feat may not be as Uber as some like to make out.

there further proof you seek lies in the fact that Rey and Kylo still had that connect even after Snoke dies at the end of the film when Rey is taking off in the Falcon

quanchi112
Once he bridged them they stayed connected.

relentless1
even if we got by that Force balancing out theory Quan it still leaves Sidious much stronger than Snoke by default; if theres only two light siders and two dark siders to balance out that automatically makes Snoke weaker because Sidious having to balance out the light of 10,000 Jedi would make him stronger by default no?

Also the Force balancing out theory holds no weight to the Prequels because the Dark side overtook the light... unbalancing the entire equation and before that the balance was heavily in favour of the light so there was no 1 : 1 ratio or balance of light to dark there

quanchi112

relentless1
and Snoke has no battle feats at all, he got killed by his student while reading his mind the whole time... Sidious stomps this pretender

DarthPlaguis12

quanchi112

quanchi112

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also there may well have already been a natural force connection between Kylo and Rey, given Reys power was the Force responding to Kylos power.

So the bridging feat may not be as Uber as some like to make out. Indeed.

After all, their minds were still bridged in this final sequence:
https://i.imgur.com/L7tbvxL.gif


Confirmed in the novelization:



And by that time Snoke was already dead, so... /shrug

One Big Mob
Snoke faked his death and still was maintaining the connection. Snoke confirmed for God

Sinious
Originally posted by Zentrex


Sheev stalemated Mother Talzin in the new canon, so maybe he's not as far above everyone as he was in legends. And I know he's grown since then, because of Lords of the Sith but it just goes on to show that it's more likely he's not the GOAT. So, instead of addressing my point, which was about Snoke, you wanted to address me using the word GOAT for Sheev, and to disprove that he isn't, you said Talzin stalemated him (who is completely irrelevant to Snoke), only to admit it was before his prime right after, which means nothing really stands in the way of Sheev being GOAT. And since I never said that Sheev is GOAT with a massive gap between him and everyone else, pretty much everything you said here is irrelevant.

Just because they have similar qualities, it doesn't mean they are the exact same force power. Not to mention that what Snoke did was simply create a link between two barely trained low level force users that would just let them communicate. Sidious was directly attacking the mind of the most powerful and experienced Jedi. The fact that Yoda was aware but the TLJ plebs weren't means absolutely nothing. So because Kylo didn't realize it, it can't be a ritual? Reasons?

Also, Snoke and Sheev were aiming at very different things, like I said above. A terrible comparison, and even if you were right about Snoke's feat > Sheev's feat, it still wouldn't be enough to put him above Sidious, because:

1) That was before Sheev's prime
2) 1 superior showing of esoteric power isn't enough to put someone above Palpatine, as you dont have to be the GOAT in literally everything to be considered the GOAT.
3) The feat is not even combat applicable, which makes it even more unimportant than it already is.

How would any of this translate to having superior TK to Vader? The weakness in your arguments are so apparent from your usage of words like "probably" and "might be". I'm sorry, but you have nothing here, and you're surprised why other members don't buy into this crap?

quanchi112
Snoke destroys Sidious. Confirmed.

Darth Horror
Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed.

After all, their minds were still bridged in this final sequence:
https://i.imgur.com/L7tbvxL.gif


Confirmed in the novelization:



And by that time Snoke was already dead, so... /shrug
It's implied in the Force Awakens novelization that Kylo entering Rey's mind resulted in the connection.

Azronger
Lol Vader would rape Snoke. By feats or by scaling Vader crushes him. Even in Canon.

One Big Mob
Something about sweaty Rey makes my day.

Dry Rey is alright, but really nothing special to me. Sweaty Rey ups everything though. Adam Driver's nose must have been near overloaded though.

They should go back and add in a bunch of sweaty Jyn scenes in RO and see if they can bring her cuteness up a couple more levels.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Azronger
Lol Vader would rape Snoke. By feats or by scaling Vader crushes him. Even in Canon. Absurd. Vader was destroyed by Luke. Ben beat Luke. Snoke destroyed Rey and Ben in direct combat. New trilogy is too much for the weaklings of the past.

relentless1
lol ignoring context and what actually happened once again eh Quan?? Pathetic... face it your boy doesnt have the feats to back up what your saying.

He TKed Rey around a bit. Big deal, she's a novice with great potential... thats like getting moist over Vader rag dolling ANH Luke...context...

Ren didn't beat Luke; he spazzed out when Lukes guard was down as Luke was ashamed at what he was going to do... thats like saying you beat somebody in a fight just cause you knocked them out while they were busy watching TV... context... something im sure you've done in your lifetime you strike me as a sucker puncher Quan lol

put Palpatines feats against Snakes and Snake loses big time... lol the guy doesn't even have a lightsaber... what a waste of a thread

quanchi112

Kurk

quanchi112

quanchi112
*hit

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed.

After all, their minds were still bridged in this final sequence:
https://i.imgur.com/L7tbvxL.gif


Confirmed in the novelization:



And by that time Snoke was already dead, so... /shrug

They were a hell of a lot closer together in that scene.

Galan007
Proximity is irrelevant to the point at hand.

The issue is that there was obviously a preexisting natural connection between them, which allowed their minds to spontaneously bridge unaided. This tells us that Snoke didn't create the mind bridge entirely -- he just tapped-into/exploited a connection that was already there.

His feat is still impressive... It just isn't *as* impressive.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Sinious
So, instead of addressing my point, which was about Snoke, you wanted to address me using the word GOAT for Sheev, and to disprove that he isn't, you said Talzin stalemated him (who is completely irrelevant to Snoke), only to admit it was before his prime right after, which means nothing really stands in the way of Sheev being GOAT. And since I never said that Sheev is GOAT with a massive gap between him and everyone else, pretty much everything you said here is irrelevant.

I can't 100% prove Snoke's superior, I can only give you what makes me think he is. My problem was with the idea that you assumed that Palpatine was the GOAT, which is the majority reason for why people think he's more powerful. Now the reason that the Mother Talzin point is important is because she wasn't more powerful than Yoda or Mace. So as far as we know, Sidious was not better than them during the clone wars or RotS.



Sidious wasn't attacking his mind. Yoda actually wanted to keep the connection, because he thought that would lead him to the identity of the dark lord. So the level of force users they were doesn't matter.

And they may not be the EXACT same force power, but the accomplish the exact same thing, and Snoke's version does it easier. And if they were doing it ritual style, Kylo would have had to actively be part of it, and shoot lightning into that cauldron of liquid. But he didn't know, so he couldn't have been part of it. And Snoke connected them whenever he wanted, whereas Sidious took quite some time just to cast one illusion. And we see Luke at the end just meditating to do his version of it, and Johnson confirmed he was using the same technique on a larger level.



How many of Palpatine's powers have we seen in the new canon? How do we know he's better than other force users in all ways, or even most ways. Perhaps he just has better Telekinesis and energy based powers than Yoda, but is slower or weaker?

It might be a bad comparison between the characters' powers, but it's a way of showing that the force bond feat is impressive.



I'm just giving you my reasons, you may find them unconvincing, but I don't.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Kurk
Snoke is literally crippled lol. He can't fight even if he wanted because he can't take a hit.

but perhaps he can deliver a killing one before he has to take it.

Kurk

quanchi112

Kurk
See this would be easy if I could whip out my EU source books and prove to you that Sidious only uses a cane to appear weak to test who will try to challenge him, that his red guard's primary purpose is not to protect him but to spy on Vader, assassinate, etc.

I'm trying to do this all Disney canon since you hate Legends so much.

Lol what makes him a better walker than Yoda? He's obviously a hunch back:

https://image.ibb.co/bN5Zx8/Snoke_hunch.png


Let's see, true or false:

Having scoliosis will make it difficult for you to fight


The more debilities he has the more he has to compensate for them with the force, and that in turn is more demanding in prolonged combat where most of his energies have to be focused on his failing body and not his offenses.


Idk why you keep saying I'm ruled by my emotions.


Serkis's quote is ambiguous and there is no-one else to second it. What does more powerful mean exactly? Political power? Military? Combination of everything?


I'm sure more of the forum will support Snoke once we learn of his back-story and how he got his injuries, but until then, we're limited.


Snoke is badass dude. I listen to these videos therapeutically!

9ZjMNgrwKUQ

LN-J3xbTWRQ




What d'ya think makes the Supreme Leader happy?

Sinious
Originally posted by Zentrex
I can't 100% prove Snoke's superior, I can only give you what makes me think he is. My problem was with the idea that you assumed that Palpatine was the GOAT, which is the majority reason for why people think he's more powerful. Now the reason that the Mother Talzin point is important is because she wasn't more powerful than Yoda or Mace. So as far as we know, Sidious was not better than them during the clone wars or RotS. Proof Talzin isn't more powerful than them at the heart of her power? And if they are superior to Talzin, and Talzin stalemated him (which is highly debatable), the fact that Palpatine stalemated Yoda (Mace's superior) means that Palpatine grew in power quite a bit between SoD and RotS, which doesn't help your case at all, since this isn't SoD Sidious vs Snoke. So, let me get this straight. You're admitting that they are not the same force power, but they still need to be achieved through the exact same means.

Do you not see the problem in this?

As for trying to achieve the exact same thing claim: Snoke wanted to have a connection between Rey and Kylo because he knew what that connection would lead to. So, the connection itself was the goal. Palpatine did a lot more with the connection between Yoda and Dooku during the time they were connected. Simply connecting them and sitting back wasn't enough. Heck, once the ritual was over, the link was gone instantly. Literally every aspect of these feats are different, and you're suggesting that all the ritual did was form the connection, and everything else that happened during the ritual happened separately, which isn't just completely baseless, but it also makes no sense at all. Not to mention the fact that the other connection was first achieved when Kylo entered Rey's mind.

LMAO. That's what I said. He doesn't need to be the GOAT in every category, so no one ever claimed that he is. TK and "energy based powers" are literally %100 of the non-esoteric force powers, and they are also the most combat applicable ones, so if Palpatine is the GOAT in areas that are most decisive in combat, that is enough. What kind of a shitty strawman is this?

Indeed. I'm glad we agree that Snoke has an impressive feat, but cannot be placed anywhere near Palpatine because of it, since by your own words, it would be a bad comparison to make.

Well, I'm sorry to say your baseless opinions don't matter here. Not only are you defending a featless character against a character with great feats, but also your featless character is holistically meant to be below the character with great feats. GL stated that Palpatine is the devil of SW Universe, and anyone who is genuine with the lore would be hesitant to put another villain above him even if they have superior feats, let alone a character with inferior feats, scaling and accolades.

relentless1
Luke wasn't afraid of Reys power he was afraid of her potential; she obviously couldn't access it yet; same as Anakin in TPM you dummy theres a huge difference between the two

quanchi112

quanchi112

Kurk

quanchi112

quanchi112
*how abusive he was of his top guy

Kurk
"You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool."

Indeed our fears keep us alive.

https://media.giphy.com/media/yN4CHCCBYHl6SClCS4/giphy.gif

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
"You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power? A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool."

Indeed our fears keep us alive.

https://media.giphy.com/media/yN4CHCCBYHl6SClCS4/giphy.gif Tell me then fallen apprentice think true. If Sidious were to find Snoke in a room with two men entering who would emerge victorious?

You know the answer to be true. Stop being

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/e5/03/31e503e7c14dbb401365947bc7f77484.gif

and now regain your purpose

https://78.media.tumblr.com/40f72978e4e0dac9182baf2f8ac6f951/tumblr_p5oppdcj4K1rwyi3po2_640.gif

Kurk
Nah bruh, Sheev still wins because Snoke can't compete with this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/wikis-are-for-nerds/images/4/4c/SheevSpin.gif


I'll meet you half-way though:


Snoke's abilities in telepathy and information draining are unrivaled in Canon and top tier in the EU

Looking solely at Palpatine's feats from RotJ I'd wager Snoke would win in a fight.

quanchi112

Darth Thor
Snoke was pretty easily killed by Kylo :lol;

Kurk
Idk Quan. Sheev is just too fast for slow poke Snoke. He gutted 3 council members before they could react. Snoke was too slow to react Kylo gutting him.

relentless1
lol again you quote an actor for your feats... scraping the bottom of the barrel indeed Quan

Darth Thor
^ Because they have nothing else. Thats the desperate state of the Snoke camp.

Iirc Pablo already stated not to take Serkis opinion as fact.

quanchi112

quanchi112

quanchi112
Originally posted by relentless1
lol again you quote an actor for your feats... scraping the bottom of the barrel indeed Quan Kurk quoted the actor. I used his comments, his feats in the film, and the book alluding to his overall history. Snoke is a badass in the film power wise to the point we have never seen anyone this dominant over such powerful characters in Rey and Kylo.

DarthPlaguis12
^^^ lol hilarious

quanchi112
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
^^^ lol hilarious Yes, those guys really are pitiful tbh.

DarthPlaguis12
Talking bout you dummy

quanchi112

DarthPlaguis12

Kurk
Quan is a fuggot?

DarthPlaguis12
Yes

Zentrex

Zentrex
Originally posted by Sinious
Proof Talzin isn't more powerful than them at the heart of her power? And if they are superior to Talzin, and Talzin stalemated him (which is highly debatable), the fact that Palpatine stalemated Yoda (Mace's superior) means that Palpatine grew in power quite a bit between SoD and RotS, which doesn't help your case at all, since this isn't SoD Sidious vs Snoke.

Alright, I concede on this point.



It's the only comparison between the feats that I could find. It wasn't my main argument for why the feat is powerful, it's just the only comparison to Sheev.



I wouldn't consider TP to be "esoteric" or combat inapplicable. You can still use it to hurt someone. If he's the greatest in that area, then he has a chance of attack. And I'm pretty sure the creators don't believe you can be better with one ability and poorer with another, anyway.



With relentless1's argument about Sheev's clouding of the Jedi's mind, I don't consider Sheev to be below the bridge feat anymore.



George's words from 2005 are about as irrelevant as they can be in this environment. Pretty sure he himself barely believes that anymore. It may still be true in legends. It may still be true in G-canon. But the sequels have gone far and wide to "outdo" the original trilogy, and so a stronger big bad is just part of the recipie.

Sinious
Well, seems like you now agree with all of the points I made that are directly relevant to this discussion. So, I won't respond to the rest of your post.

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