Mutants vs. Super Soldiers

NemeBro

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Super soldiers are stronger and faster, but they really don't have a way to put down mutants. Deadpool is far faster than even the fastest Super Soldier here, seeing as he can perceive and chase bullets and can cut them in half. Given Cable's ability to stonewall and fight Deadpool hand to hand he'd scale to him. Wolverine was able to somewhat keep up with an amped Wade in X-Men: Origins as well, and given that Lady Deathstrike is faster than Wolverine neither should have trouble dealing with the MCU team's speed.

As far as round 1 goes, the difference is that while the MCU team has two people that no one person on team one can put down, not a single character in the Fox team is going down 1v1 to anyone in the MCU team. Bucky and Cap will be the first to die, and from there BP and KM won't be handling the four unkillable mutants. They'll be swarmed. If you interpret round 1 as allowing melee weapons, IMO it becomes even more of a stomp.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by NemeBro
Deadpool is far faster than even the fastest Super Soldier here, seeing as he can perceive and chase bullets...

This is one a lot of people forget about I think, focusing more on the bullet cut scene.

During the Vanessa-death scene, Wade was actually able to turn around and take a step or two in her direction in the time it took the bullet to cross the room IIRC. Now, he is obviously not Flash fast, but it does show an incredible amount of speed (both in perception/reaction and movement), considering a normal human would be hard pressed to simply turn their head in that same amount of time.

NemeBro

Yeah, Deadpool is very fast as far as street level heroes like these go. And while not as strong as the Super Soldiers, he can still break a man's neck with little to no leverage, and was able to slightly hurt Angel Dust with a headbutt. Cable if anything looked to be a little physically stronger in their fight IMO.

TheVaultDweller

He was also able to twist a piece of metal rail around Cable's neck without too much apparent effort (after initially hitting Cable in his metal arm with it hard enough to start bending it already), during their prison fight, and shoulderslam a car hard enough to not only move it, but send the guy inside it tumbling out the other side.

So, yeah, not Super Soldier strong, but still pretty damn strong.

carthage

Cable tore off that heavy metal door from the prison convoy with one arm too

FrothByte

Originally posted by NemeBro
Deadpool is far faster than even the fastest Super Soldier here, seeing as he can perceive and chase bullets and can cut them in half. Given Cable's ability to stonewall and fight Deadpool hand to hand he'd scale to him. Wolverine was able to somewhat keep up with an amped Wade in X-Men: Origins as well, and given that Lady Deathstrike is faster than Wolverine neither should have trouble dealing with the MCU team's speed.

As far as round 1 goes, the difference is that while the MCU team has two people that no one person on team one can put down, not a single character in the Fox team is going down 1v1 to anyone in the MCU team. Bucky and Cap will be the first to die, and from there BP and KM won't be handling the four unkillable mutants. They'll be swarmed. If you interpret round 1 as allowing melee weapons, IMO it becomes even more of a stomp.

Sorry but no. First of all, the mutants are all susceptible to getting knocked out with enough blunt trauma. We've seen Wolverine lose consciousness before, and we've seen Deadpool and Cable on the verge of blacking out.
Besides, Deadpool can still get dismembered, and then he'll be completely helpless then.

As for his speed, remember that he only cut that one bullet in his movie and got shot by the rest. Ok, maybe he blocked a few, but still hot hit a lot. What that means is that although it's a good speed feat, he does NOT move as fast as bullets. Moving as fast as bullets means he can cut every single one. It means he's fast but also depends on luck and timing to make those cuts.

Anyway long story short, the mutants still don't have a way to get past the nanite suits or Cap's shield. The SS team is still stronger and the mutants are all susceptible to KO or dismemberment.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by carthage
Cable tore off that heavy metal door from the prison convoy with one arm too

Random question, but it actually might have an impact on the match. Does Deadpool get his self-awareness as a comic/movie character, as well as his industry knowledge?

Because we know he knows about Fox, the MCU, DCEU etc. and we know that, based on things like his Brown Panther and Thanos-related jokes from DP2, he is pretty up-to-date as well. Which means he will have unique knowledge available to him as someone with this extra awareness of the films, including potentially things like the necklace removal weakness of the BP nanite suits.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Anyway long story short, the mutants still don't have a way to get past the nanite suits or Cap's shield.

Just because they might not be able to damage the shield itself, it does not mean they can't get past it to tag Steve. Cap's not untouchable, even with shield in hand.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Just because they might not be able to damage the shield itself, it does not mean they can't get past it to tag Steve. Cap's not untouchable, even with shield in hand.

Sure, but who's gonna tag him? Wolverine isn't skilled enough, and Cable even if he hits Cap won't pack enough power to keep him down. Plus Cap is more skilled than Cable.

DP is fast and skilled enough but not strong enough to block hits from Cap. He tries it with his swords there's a good chance they'll break.

That leaves, Deathstrike, so they'd better hope she pairs up with Cap. Actually it would be best if she pairs up against WS and try to finish him fast enough to help against Cap.

wakkawakkawakka

So in the h2h fight does the nanite suits also include the kinetic energy absorption/blasts, because that would seem like a pretty decisive factor in both of the matches.

Also their is Wolverine's weirdly inconsistent feats to take into account, are we using the Origins version/x3/weapon x beserker rage(Apoc)/the stuff he did in "Wolverine". See his h2h stats are all over the place.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sure, but who's gonna tag him? Wolverine isn't skilled enough, and Cable even if he hits Cap won't pack enough power to keep him down. Plus Cap is more skilled than Cable.

DP is fast and skilled enough but not strong enough to block hits from Cap. He tries it with his swords there's a good chance they'll break.

That leaves, Deathstrike, so they'd better hope she pairs up with Cap. Actually it would be best if she pairs up against WS and try to finish him fast enough to help against Cap.

Deadpool can stab through concrete and metal with his swords without them breaking, so they are quite sturdy. Also, he doesn't need to directly block. He is fast enough to dodge, or deflect hits, instead of blocking outright. And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets. But he can visibly perceive and follow them, and even take a few steps after one, which is still better than the Super Soldiers.

How do you know repeated hits from the cyborg arm won't have a lasting effect on Steve? Repeated hits from similar limbs have had a visible effect on him in the past (as Carthage pointed out, that arm can casually tear an armored door off its hinge). Also, Cable carries knives, as shown in DP2. He even stabs Wade in the shoulder at one point. And if Cap gets his shield, I am assuming Cable is allowed to use his as well.

NemeBro

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sorry but no.

Sorry, but yes.

Deadpool has literally blown himself to pieces without getting knocked out, and he's taken hits from Juggernaut, who hits harder than everyone on the Super Soldier team combined multiplied by twenty. Cable also took hits from the Juggernaut without passing out (I forgot he was the fourth here though he can actually be knocked out or killed by team two).

When was Deadpool on the verge of blacking out, aside from when he first acquired his powers and nearly blew himself up to escape, which was after like a weekend of horrible torture? I can't recall.

As far as Wolverine, you're referring to him being temporarily knocked out by a bullet right? He's also taken hits far harder than what Cap can dish out without passing out.

But he's much faster than anyone on team 2.

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20bpjtCbCz0&feature=youtu.be&t=101

Cable fires something like nineteen or twenty bullets at Deadpool in rapid succession. We see that, even after the first one which Deadpool blocks, that the sparks from his sword indicate that he was blocking quite a few.

He then only has six bullet wounds on him. So he blocked somewhere 13/19 or 14/20. Not one of the Super Soldiers could replicate that feat.

Apparently he does.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Deadpool_2:_Wade_cuts_a_bullet

Given that his first swing was done after the bullet was fired, that he literally twirled the blade a couple of times as it approached him (with his sword visibly moving faster than the bullet), and then cut it in half, yeah that sounds about right.

That's just not true at all my friend. Muhammad Ali was much faster than George Foreman, but he couldn't avoid or block every single punch he threw. Given that Cable can with a tiny movement alter the trajectory of his bullets, as opposed to Deadpool who has to make large movements to block each one, Deadpool can easily be that fast while still getting hit by a relative few.

It means he is over twice as fast as anyone on team two my man, probably more like three times or more. Given that there is film evidence that Deadpool can not only see bullets in flight, but actually perceptibly run after them, evidence favors Deadpool being a legitimate bullet timer.

Warning: video has big spoilers for Deadpool 2 for those who haven't seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34LHRsiaCD8

Deadpool's gaze actually follows the bullet, his eyes locked on it the entire time. He can't outrun the bullet, but he can perceive it and, as the other scene shows, can react to and deflect them using his arms.

Wolverine and Deathstrike can likely get past the Nanite suits tbh. As far as Cap's shield goes, Deadpool can easily get past it consider his superior speed. Wolverine could as well, given his ability to fight shit!Deadpool and deflect his attacks.

Now granted, I am operating under the assumption that round 1 allows melee weaponry and claws. If I'm wrong, I do think the Super Soldiers would take it.

NemeBro

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets.

I am, because he is, at least in smaller movements like attacking, swinging a sword, etc. He can't run as fast or faster than a bullet like Flash or Quicksilver can, sure.

It's frankly pretty much indisputable. His sword visually is faster than the bullet Cable fires at him.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Deadpool can stab through concrete and metal with his swords without them breaking, so they are quite sturdy. Also, he doesn't need to directly block. He is fast enough to dodge, or deflect hits, instead of blocking outright. And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets. But he can visibly perceive and follow them, and even take a few steps after one, which is still better than the Super Soldiers.

How do you know repeated hits from the cyborg arm won't have a lasting effect on Steve? Repeated hits from similar limbs have had a visible effect on him in the past (as Carthage pointed out, that arm can casually tear an armored door off its hinge). Also, Cable carries knives, as shown in DP2. He even stabs Wade in the shoulder at one point. And if Cap gets his shield, I am assuming Cable is allowed to use his as well.

Of course the cyborg arm will have an effect on Steve after repeated hits, I just don't think he can land that many hits. I mean, do you really consider Cable to be Cap's equal in skill? And WS had a knife as well, and I consider WS a better fighter than Cable too. Cap barely had any wounds from that knife.

As for DP, I'll address your points tomorrow. Too sleepy to do research.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by NemeBro
I am, because he is, at least in smaller movements like attacking, swinging a sword, etc. He can't run as fast or faster than a bullet like Flash or Quicksilver can, sure.

It's frankly pretty much indisputable. His sword visually is faster than the bullet Cable fires at him.

You are now but, technically, at the time you hadn't yet (yes, I am being pedantic). But I gotta admit, you make a damn good case for it.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course the cyborg arm will have an effect on Steve after repeated hits, I just don't think he can land that many hits. I mean, do you really consider Cable to be Cap's equal in skill? And WS had a knife as well, and I consider WS a better fighter than Cable too. Cap barely had any wounds from that knife.

As for DP, I'll address your points tomorrow. Too sleepy to do research.

Why is it such a stretch to you? As Nemebro pointed out, Cable is either fast or skilled (or a combination of both) enough that he can land plenty of hits on someone that has multiple feats of reacting to bullets. We also see him easily steamroll through all the prison security that got in his way when he first arrives, without taking a hit in return IIRC. Hell, he was even able to do pretty well against Domino, despite her BS luck powers turning every scenario in her favour.

He might not be an exact equal, but I don't see why he isn't skilled enough to compete.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Why is it such a stretch to you? As Nemebro pointed out, Cable is either fast or skilled (or a combination of both) enough that he can land plenty of hits on someone that has multiple feats of reacting to bullets. We also see him easily steamroll through all the prison security that got in his way when he first arrives, without taking a hit in return IIRC. Hell, he was even able to do pretty well against Domino, despite her BS luck powers turning every scenario in her favour.

He might not be an exact equal, but I don't see why he isn't skilled enough to compete.

Tell me honestly: do you think Cable can outfight WS in pure h2h?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Tell me honestly: do you think Cable can outfight WS in pure h2h?

Based on all the evidence already posted, I won't discount the possibility. And unless you can actually post proper counter evidence to the speed argument Nemebro posted, there isn't much else to say.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on all the evidence already posted, I won't discount the possibility. And unless you can actually post proper counter evidence to the speed argument Nemebro posted, there isn't much else to say.

Then let's address it. This is the clip in question, timestamp 0:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2OJkfDYRlE

The first bullet cut is a good, valid feat. I won't argue against that, it's the succeeding bullet deflections that I will address. You will notice that DP starts moving his swords in an X pattern and at no point in the shooting did he vary his pattern, make small adjustments, or move his swords in any way that proves he was actively tracking the bullets' trajectory and moving to intercept them. He was simply moving his swords in a pattern, covering the most likely areas to get hit given their proximity and Cable's line of sight... and hoping to block some shots.

Cable decides to keep shooting from relatively the same angle. He changes the gun's elevation a few times but such minute changes at close distance are still aimed for the torso (i.e. the area covered by slashing blades).

Of course, there's also the obvious fact that DP isn't moving in superspeed. We can clearly see those swords moving and based on the sounds of shots fired and movement of everything else we can conclude that this wasn't done in slow motion.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Then let's address it. This is the clip in question, timestamp 0:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2OJkfDYRlE

The first bullet cut is a good, valid feat. I won't argue against that, it's the succeeding bullet deflections that I will address. You will notice that DP starts moving his swords in an X pattern and at no point in the shooting did he vary his pattern, make small adjustments, or move his swords in any way that proves he was actively tracking the bullets' trajectory and moving to intercept them. He was simply moving his swords in a pattern, covering the most likely areas to get hit given their proximity and Cable's line of sight... and hoping to block some shots.

Cable decides to keep shooting from relatively the same angle. He changes the gun's elevation a few times but such minute changes at close distance are still aimed for the torso (i.e. the area covered by slashing blades).

Of course, there's also the obvious fact that DP isn't moving in superspeed. We can clearly see those swords moving and based on the sounds of shots fired and movement of everything else we can conclude that this wasn't done in slow motion.

Simply because you can't detect tiny variations or specific timing means it was just a pattern and dumb luck, even though we know that things look a lot different from his perspective?

And ignoring what Nemebro pointed out, in that during the slowmo, we do see his arm move at comparable speed to the bullet. Or the Vanessa scene, where his perceptions are clearly showcased again? Is your argument seriously he used superspeed to cut the first bullet (as you acknowledge it as valid) and then just decided to stop bothering and go to human speed for the rest of it, because you can see the blade move?

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Simply because you can't detect tiny variations or specific timing means it was just a pattern and dumb luck, even though we know that things look a lot different from his perspective?

And ignoring what Nemebro pointed out, in that during the slowmo, we do see his arm move at comparable speed to the bullet. Or the Vanessa scene, where his perceptions are clearly showcased again? Is your argument seriously he used superspeed to cut the first bullet (as you acknowledge it as valid) and then just decided to stop bothering and go to human speed for the rest of it, because you can see the blade move?

No, my argument is that when a character showcases abilities for 99% of the movie and then shows contradictory abilities for 1% of the movie, we don't base their entire skill and powerset on the 1%. I'm not arguing against that one scene because there's nothing to argue: that was indeed a display of superspeed.... superspeed that he doesn't display in pretty much all his other scenes. CBMs like these like to exaggerate scenes for cool factor, I'm pretty sure they never intended to portray DP as a super speedster. And I'm sure as hell that they never intended to portray Cable as a speedster too, as you and Nemebro are seemingly implying.

Like I said, if DP was truly as fast as that first bullet cut scene showed, then he would have had no issues cutting all the other bullets. Nemebro's Ali vs. Foreman is a false comparison as all that shows is that Ali is faster than Foreman, not that Ali is faster than Foreman's hand velocity.

As for the rest of the bullet deflections, you can slow down that video all you want, you won't find any deviations or erratic movements from DP's pattern. Again, there's no indication that he was actively tracking bullets and moving his blades to intercept them. You may not like it but the scene backs up my statement. If you want to claim otherwise, onus will be on you to prove it, since what is shown in that scene is simply that he is moving his swords in a pattern... and not even a very fast one at that.

Josh_Alexander

Deadpool a speedster??? Hell no.

TheLordofMurder

I am taking the Mutants to win all the way...

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
No, my argument is that when a character showcases abilities for 99% of the movie and then shows contradictory abilities for 1% of the movie, we don't base their entire skill and powerset on the 1%. I'm not arguing against that one scene because there's nothing to argue: that was indeed a display of superspeed.... superspeed that he doesn't display in pretty much all his other scenes. CBMs like these like to exaggerate scenes for cool factor, I'm pretty sure they never intended to portray DP as a super speedster. And I'm sure as hell that they never intended to portray Cable as a speedster too, as you and Nemebro are seemingly implying.

Like I said, if DP was truly as fast as that first bullet cut scene showed, then he would have had no issues cutting all the other bullets. Nemebro's Ali vs. Foreman is a false comparison as all that shows is that Ali is faster than Foreman, not that Ali is faster than Foreman's hand velocity.

As for the rest of the bullet deflections, you can slow down that video all you want, you won't find any deviations or erratic movements from DP's pattern. Again, there's no indication that he was actively tracking bullets and moving his blades to intercept them. You may not like it but the scene backs up my statement. If you want to claim otherwise, onus will be on you to prove it, since what is shown in that scene is simply that he is moving his swords in a pattern... and not even a very fast one at that.

Dude, the film's implication, with more than one scene explicitly showing his slowed-down perceptions, is clear. Even if you want to hand-wave the other shots away, it does not change the fact that the initial bullet cut + Vanessa scene > than feats Team MCU has shown.

He cut the first bullet, showing very clear superspeed (seeing as you are insisting on applying visual speed here) during the slowmo scene (again, refer to what Nemebro pointed out where we visually can see him making flurries and such while the bullet is coming at him). He shows very clear enhanced speed and reflexes during the Vanessa scene as well. So, he very clearly can move that fast when he wants to. Not doing so (according to you) doesn't change the fact that he can and has. If he didn't move that fast for the other shots, after showing the clear ability to do so initially, then he either choose not to, or PIS. So, yes, he is that fast by screen feats. It's called high-end showings. You use high-ends when you argue for characters you like (don't pretend you don't), so not seeing why high-ends for Wade aren't valid here.

TheVaultDweller

And, btw, I don't see anyone arguing that he is a speedster, like Flash or Quicksilver. In fact, both Nemebro and I have specifically stated that he can't run about like those guys can, or even run as fast as/faster than a bullet. The argument is that he has bullet-time speed/reflexes with smaller movements more suited to combat. Which you are arguing against, despite him cutting a bullet in half onscreen in one scene, and being able to track and follow one perceptibly in another.

And he's always been fast. He was flipping over gunfire and such during the bridge scene from the first film as well, showed enough speed, perception and coordination to aim and headshot three people with one bullet while flipping through the air, and matched pace with someone who was explicitly stated as having superhuman reflexes (Ajax). So, it's not like it's just focusing on DP2 feats.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And, btw, I don't see anyone arguing that he is a speedster, like Flash or Quicksilver. In fact, both Nemebro and I have specifically stated that he can't run about like those guys can, or even run as fast as/faster than a bullet. The argument is that he has bullet-time speed/reflexes with smaller movements more suited to combat. Which you are arguing against, despite him cutting a bullet in half onscreen in one scene, and being able to track and follow one perceptibly in another.

And he's always been fast. He was flipping over gunfire and such during the bridge scene from the first film as well, showed enough speed, perception and coordination to aim and headshot three people with one bullet while flipping through the air, and matched pace with someone who was explicitly stated as having superhuman reflexes (Ajax). So, it's not like it's just focusing on DP2 feats.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Cable shot DP from about 6 feet away. DP was twirling his sword while the bullet was approaching him and didn't start with his cut till the bullet was at least 2/3 of the way to hitting him.

To be able to accomplish that feat, he would need to actually have legit super speed. Faster than Wonder Woman at the very least. There are only 2 ways this makes sense:

1. He has legit superhuman speed
2. That scene is exaggerated

You can't claim it was simply fast reflexes, because he would still have needed to move his arm at ridiculously superhuman speeds to make that cut with the bullet that near to him.

So before I even reply to your earlier post (I deleted my earlier reply to reply to this instead) I need to know what your stance is. Are you saying that DP does indeed have superhuman speed?

Because you realize this is the exact argument at H1 makes whenever he claims Ozy has superspeed right?

P.S. - I couldn't find a clip of that scene with Vanessa you're referencing. Please post a vid if you have one so we could look at it properly.

HulkIsHulk

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Cable shot DP from about 6 feet away. DP was twirling his sword while the bullet was approaching him and didn't start with his cut till the bullet was at least 2/3 of the way to hitting him.

To be able to accomplish that feat, he would need to actually have legit super speed. Faster than Wonder Woman at the very least. There are only 2 ways this makes sense:

1. He has legit superhuman speed
2. That scene is exaggerated

You can't claim it was simply fast reflexes, because he would still have needed to move his arm at ridiculously superhuman speeds to make that cut with the bullet that near to him.

So before I even reply to your earlier post (I deleted my earlier reply to reply to this instead) I need to know what your stance is. Are you saying that DP does indeed have superhuman speed?

Because you realize this is the exact argument at H1 makes whenever he claims Ozy has superspeed right?

P.S. - I couldn't find a clip of that scene with Vanessa you're referencing. Please post a vid if you have one so we could look at it properly.

So you're basically saying """This doesn't fit my perception of how things should be do it's not valid"""
C'mon man

FrothByte

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
So you're basically saying """This doesn't fit my perception of how things should be do it's not valid"""
C'mon man

No, I'm saying that you need superhuman speed to accomplish that feat, not JUST superhuman reflexes. Therefore if we use that scene as a basis for DP's powerset (even if it contradicts all his other feats) then that means we'll be attributing superspeed as one of his powers.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

During the Vanessa-death scene, Wade was actually able to turn around and take a step or two in her direction in the time it took the bullet to cross the room IIRC. Now, he is obviously not Flash fast, but it does show an incredible amount of speed (both in perception/reaction and movement), considering a normal human would be hard pressed to simply turn their head in that same amount of time.

Yeah but kind of ruined when right after he chases her killer at a very human running speed.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but kind of ruined when right after he chases her killer at a very human running speed.

It's like people just aren't listening to what Nemebro and I are actually saying. The argument is superspeed/reflexes with smaller movements related to combat. No one says he can run around like Quicksilver. Nor has anyone said he is a full-on speedster like him either. Both of us have explicitly stated the opposite. But it does not detract from the fact that he has shown blatant/explicit enhanced/bullet-time speed/reaction for smaller/shorter actions.

Seriously, if all people are going to do is basically throw strawmen at me, then I am done here.

Darth Thor

^ Are you frigging kidding me?

You dont need to be QS speed just to chase/catch a normal human bad guy.

All I said was that kinda ruined/negated the moving around at bullet speed feat immediately prior. And it did. Someone who can move his hand and turn his head that fast should have Zero issues chasing a regular bad guy.

But then its Deadpool. Its not supposed to be taken completely seriously in terms of feats. Except of course by you and Nemebro apparently.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It's like people just aren't listening to what Nemebro and I are actually saying. The argument is superspeed/reflexes with smaller movements related to combat. No one says he can run around like Quicksilver. Nor has anyone said he is a full-on speedster like him either. Both of us have explicitly stated the opposite. But it does not detract from the fact that he has shown blatant/explicit enhanced/bullet-time speed/reaction for smaller/shorter actions.

Seriously, if all people are going to do is basically throw strawmen at me, then I am done here.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Moving your arm holding a 2 foot sword to cut at a bullet that's about 2-3 feet in front of you is NOT a small movement. Not to mention the fact that DP would have needed to perceive time in slow motion in order to have the accuracy needed to cut that bullet... unless you think it was simply a lucky shot. Bottom line, you need legit superhuman speed to pull that off.

Right now you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to claim that the feat is legitimately showcasing DP's speed yet don't want to admit that it would put him in full superspeedster category. And we're not at the point where, if he was indeed this fast, then all the times he was getting hit by bullets doesn't make sense at all.

NemeBro

Deadpool during the second part of that scene had just jumped clean through a window to the ground, and then proceeded to get hit by a car before he could catch the guy. It is entirely conceivable that he hurt his legs and was in the process of healing during the chase (which lasted like three seconds and he was visibly gaining on him because, once again, hit by a car). Notably, he then proceeded to run with such speed and force that when he shoulder bumped the car it skidded sideways and the door on the opposite side of him was forced open.

It's actually incredible that people are trying so hard to argue against Deadpool's blatantly superhuman reflexes and speed.

YI-yMivF9X0

2:14 he shows the speed to casually reach from the top of a car that is currently rolling at like eighty miles and hour and grab a guy without his arm being crushed by the car or the ground. Not as good as either bullet feat, but notable due to how casual and effortless it is.

And it's not like bullet-timing is exclusive to the second film either.

q59HU_HdWrY

0:35, at the start of the counting bullets scene, Deadpool leaps into the air and fires a bullet, before doing a little spin mid-air and firing another bullet. What makes this feat so phucking crazy is that, as we see directly after, the two bullets land simultaneously, with one of the bad guys being maybe a meter behind the other, meaning that he did that little twist and fired once more in about the time it took that bullet to fire move approximately a meter.

About a minute in we see him fire two shots at Francis, who almost lazily bobs his head to the side and dodges them. The same Francis who Deadpool fights hand-to-hand. Deadpool then later avoids a burst of machine-gun fire from him, and whether he was dodging the bullets themselves or just dodging the aim, he is dodging the aim of someone who explicitly has superhuman reflexes as a power and who has shown he can easily move quickly enough to avoid bullets after being fired.

At 2:32 before three thugs can do more than move their guns a few inches Deadpool is spinning in mid-air and putting a bullet through all three of their heads.

It's so weird. Deadpool demonstrates blatantly superhuman physical abilities throughout both films, but here Froth and Darth Thor are trying so hard to discredit his blatantly superhuman speed.

FrothByte

Originally posted by NemeBro
Deadpool during the second part of that scene had just jumped clean through a window to the ground, and then proceeded to get hit by a car before he could catch the guy. It is entirely conceivable that he hurt his legs and was in the process of healing during the chase (which lasted like three seconds and he was visibly gaining on him because, once again, hit by a car). Notably, he then proceeded to run with such speed and force that when he shoulder bumped the car it skidded sideways and the door on the opposite side of him was forced open.

It's actually incredible that people are trying so hard to argue against Deadpool's blatantly superhuman reflexes and speed.

YI-yMivF9X0

2:14 he shows the speed to casually reach from the top of a car that is currently rolling at like eighty miles and hour and grab a guy without his arm being crushed by the car or the ground. Not as good as either bullet feat, but notable due to how casual and effortless it is.

And it's not like bullet-timing is exclusive to the second film either.

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0:35, at the start of the counting bullets scene, Deadpool leaps into the air and fires a bullet, before doing a little spin mid-air and firing another bullet. What makes this feat so phucking crazy is that, as we see directly after, the two bullets land simultaneously, with one of the bad guys being maybe a meter behind the other, meaning that he did that little twist and fired once more in about the time it took that bullet to fire move approximately a meter.

About a minute in we see him fire two shots at Francis, who almost lazily bobs his head to the side and dodges them. The same Francis who Deadpool fights hand-to-hand. Deadpool then later avoids a burst of machine-gun fire from him, and whether he was dodging the bullets themselves or just dodging the aim, he is dodging the aim of someone who explicitly has superhuman reflexes as a power and who has shown he can easily move quickly enough to avoid bullets after being fired.

At 2:32 before three thugs can do more than move their guns a few inches Deadpool is spinning in mid-air and putting a bullet through all three of their heads.

It's so weird. Deadpool demonstrates blatantly superhuman physical abilities throughout both films, but here Froth and Darth Thor are trying so hard to discredit his blatantly superhuman speed.

At this point I'm not even trying to argue against it, I'm just trying to get you and Vault to admit that you're basically claiming DP has legit superspeed.

NemeBro

Originally posted by FrothByte
At this point I'm not even trying to argue against it, I'm just trying to get you and Vault to admit that you're basically claiming DP has legit superspeed. I can't speak for Vault, but I have literally zero problem with saying as much. Deadpool has super speed, both on foot or in terms of attack speed and reflexes. He's not nearly as fast as someone like Quicksilver (even MCU), Superman, Flash, or whatever, but sure, he has super speed. thumb up

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by NemeBro
I can't speak for Vault, but I have literally zero problem with saying as much. Deadpool has super speed, both on foot or in terms of attack speed and reflexes. He's not nearly as fast as someone like Quicksilver (even MCU), Superman, Flash, or whatever, but sure, he has super speed. thumb up

This.

And I am sorry, but if people want to claim he doesn't, then go ahead and disprove Kyle Hill from Because Science's calculations (as well as the ones from the Versus wiki) on the topic. It's that simple.

KingD19

He probably did crack his legs, Neme. Remember later during the "superhero landing" scene. We hear his knees break when he lands and hes limping for a bit before he is back to normal. Amd he goes "Nnnnng, sooo impractical."

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
This.

And I am sorry, but if people want to claim he doesn't, then go ahead and disprove Kyle Hill from Because Science's calculations (as well as the ones from the Versus wiki) on the topic. It's that simple.

Ok, at least we're now clear that you do consider DP a speedster. You do realize you're using the exact same argument h1 uses to claim Ozy is a speedster too right?

NemeBro

Are there truly people who don't believe Ozymandias has superhuman speed? h1 certainly exaggerates how fast he is (he isn't that far beyond Cap, if at all), but what is the justification for pretending Ozymandias didn't demonstrate speeds beyond human ability?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok, at least we're now clear that you do consider DP a speedster. You do realize you're using the exact same argument h1 uses to claim Ozy is a speedster too right?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that posting video clips with accompanying calcs (which are in line with the views from credited people, like Kyle Hill) is comparable with what H1 does? Wow, dude. Just wow. You're comparing me with phucking H1 because you don't agree with what I have to say? Seriously, don't expect another response from me in this thread.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by NemeBro

It's so weird. Deadpool demonstrates blatantly superhuman physical abilities throughout both films, but here Froth and Darth Thor are trying so hard to discredit his blatantly superhuman speed.

Yeah because 2 posts pointing out an inconsistency which you would rather just ignore is me trying Really Hard to discredit any kind of superhuman speed.

You are a moron.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Are you seriously trying to suggest that posting video clips with accompanying calcs (which are in line with the views from credited people, like Kyle Hill) is comparable with what H1 does? Wow, dude. Just wow. You're comparing me with phucking H1 because you don't agree with what I have to say? Seriously, don't expect another response from me in this thread.

H1 claimed that Ozy catching a bullet made him a speedster, even if that was inconsistent with the rest of his feats for the entire movie.

You're claiming that DP cutting a bullet makes him a speedster, even if that makes him completely inconsistent with the rest of his feats in the movie.

You're a better debater than H1, nicer too, so your'e able to express your point better. But you're still using pretty much the same basic argument: which is that 1 or 2 feats trump the other feats they showed for the entire movie even if it's completely inconsistent.

I don't have a problem with Kyle Hill's computations, I don't disagree with them. My argument with you is not that DP didn't display superspeed in that scene, it's that I feel it's silly that you use 1-2 scenes as basis for his speed when they were scenes obviously exaggerated for cool-factor and does not match what we see from DP for the rest of the movie. This is a DP movie after all, they exaggerate a lot.

FrothByte

Originally posted by NemeBro
Are there truly people who don't believe Ozymandias has superhuman speed? h1 certainly exaggerates how fast he is (he isn't that far beyond Cap, if at all), but what is the justification for pretending Ozymandias didn't demonstrate speeds beyond human ability?

Ozy being not much faster than Cap is no issue for me. Same thing as DP being not that much faster than Cap is no issue for me.

However, it seemed that you and Vault were implying he was much faster, and to use the bullet-cut scene as a basis for his speed would have made him a speedster at least faster than Wonder Woman... which would make him a lot faster than Cap. That's what I have issues with because it's completely out of character for DP to be attributed that kind of speed.

FrothByte

Regarding the Kyle Hill video: he discusses the superhuman reflexes necessary to react to a bullet, not necessarily the superhuman speed necessary to move your body fast enough to make the cut or track the bullet in mid flight.

Darth Thor

Also Vault Im pretty sure you have argued against applying super speed to Wonder Woman in the past due to inconsistencies.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
H1 claimed that Ozy catching a bullet made him a speedster, even if that was inconsistent with the rest of his feats for the entire movie.

You're claiming that DP cutting a bullet makes him a speedster, even if that makes him completely inconsistent with the rest of his feats in the movie.

You're a better debater than H1, nicer too, so your'e able to express your point better. But you're still using pretty much the same basic argument: which is that 1 or 2 feats trump the other feats they showed for the entire movie even if it's completely inconsistent.

I don't have a problem with Kyle Hill's computations, I don't disagree with them. My argument with you is not that DP didn't display superspeed in that scene, it's that I feel it's silly that you use 1-2 scenes as basis for his speed when they were scenes obviously exaggerated for cool-factor and does not match what we see from DP for the rest of the movie. This is a DP movie after all, they exaggerate a lot.

No. I am arguing Deadpool has super speed because he has performed feats that would require super speed to accomplish. Cap, WS etc. all consistently visually move no faster than fast humans during many of their action scenes and such. How do we know they are enhanced then? We use other quantifiable feats that show us, "okay, clearly they have to be faster than they look a lot of the time". And this doesn't just apply to these films or characters.

Also, you know that reactions aren't enough if you can't move your limbs fast enough to take successful action. Otherwise, all you will do is watch yourself being shot in slowmo. So, Kyle's video still supports my stance.

Anyway, we have been at this for a few pages. I am not going to budge. Doesn't look like you are. So, I am going to go do something more productive than spin wheels in circles.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also Vault Im pretty sure you have argued against applying super speed to Wonder Woman in the past due to inconsistencies.

Actually, I can post multiple examples where I argue in favour of her speed in a fight. A recent example was the Wonder Woman vs Juggernaut thread (I even pointed out that I struggle seeing him even tagging her). I've also brought it up in threads like Wonder Woman vs Superman and such, specifically referencing things like the alley bullet-deflection scene. Frothbyte is the one who routinely does what you are saying with Diana, bringing up things like Ludendorf tagging her.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No. I am arguing Deadpool has super speed because he has performed feats that would require super speed to accomplish. Cap, WS etc. all consistently visually move no faster than fast humans during many of their action scenes and such. How do we know they are enhanced then? We use other quantifiable feats that show us, "okay, clearly they have to be faster than they look a lot of the time". And this doesn't just apply to these films or characters.

Also, you know that reactions aren't enough if you can't move your limbs fast enough to take successful action. Otherwise, all you will do is watch yourself being shot in slowmo. So, Kyle's video still supports my stance.

Anyway, we have been at this for a few pages. I am not going to budge. Doesn't look like you are. So, I am going to go do something more productive than spin wheels in circles.

Actually, I can post multiple examples where I argue in favour of her speed in a fight. A recent example was the Wonder Woman vs Juggernaut thread (I even pointed out that I struggle seeing him even tagging her). I've also brought it up in threads like Wonder Woman vs Superman and such, specifically referencing things like the alley bullet-deflection scene. Frothbyte is the one who routinely does what you are saying with Diana, bringing up things like Ludendorf tagging her.

Yes, you are arguing that DP has superspeed because of one scene where he displayed superspeed (you haven't posted the Vanessa clip yet) which is exactly the same thing h1 did, by arguing Ozy has superspeed based on one scene where he displayed superspeed. You then ignore pretty much 99% of their other feats where they never showed that same kind of speed.

Is DP fast? Yes he is, above and beyond what any human can achieve. Is he faster than the super soldiers? This is where we start disagreeing. If your stance is that he simply has heightened reflexes and speed to allow him some basic bullet dodging/blocking skills then he's really not that much faster than Winter Soldier who can backflip out of the way of machinegun fire from point blank range.

But if you're claiming that he's a legit bullet-timer, capable of tracking a bullet's trajectory in slow motion and capable of moving faster than the bullet in order to cut it in half despite only moving at the last moment, then you're going to run into a consistency problem as he never displays that kind of superspeed in majority of his fight scenes even when it could have been extremely useful.

And unless I'm misremembering, these were some of the same arguments you used against h1 and his claim that Ozy was a lot faster than Winter Soldier.

Edit: And yes: Luddendorf, Ares and Steppenwolf tagging WW is a consistency problem, since none of these characters have displayed any feat to match WW's supposed super speed.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, you are arguing that DP has superspeed because of one scene where he displayed superspeed (you haven't posted the Vanessa clip yet) which is exactly the same thing h1 did, by arguing Ozy has superspeed based on one scene where he displayed superspeed. You then ignore pretty much 99% of their other feats where they never showed that same kind of speed.

Is DP fast? Yes he is, above and beyond what any human can achieve. Is he faster than the super soldiers? This is where we start disagreeing. If your stance is that he simply has heightened reflexes and speed to allow him some basic bullet dodging/blocking skills then he's really not that much faster than Winter Soldier who can backflip out of the way of machinegun fire from point blank range.

But if you're claiming that he's a legit bullet-timer, capable of tracking a bullet's trajectory in slow motion and capable of moving faster than the bullet in order to cut it in half despite only moving at the last moment, then you're going to run into a consistency problem as he never displays that kind of superspeed in majority of his fight scenes even when it could have been extremely useful.

And unless I'm misremembering, these were some of the same arguments you used against h1 and his claim that Ozy was a lot faster than Winter Soldier.

Edit: And yes: Luddendorf, Ares and Steppenwolf tagging WW is a consistency problem, since none of these characters have displayed any feat to match WW's supposed super speed.

Nemebro already posted the Vanessa clip, but here it is again. You can very clearly see his head turn, follow the bullet, and then still make an effort to go after it (obviously, he was too slow), but it gets the point across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34LHRsiaCD8

Actually, my argument regarding Ozy is that being able to catch one bullet and then getting floored in the process doesn't mean that you can continually avoid punches and kicks from someone who also has enhanced speed.

And anyway, Wade and Ozy's feats are not the same. Casually cutting a bullet in half with a precision strike > falling over while catching one. So, comparing feats, Wade would be faster than Ozy as well.

But yeah, I am done here. Accept the clip I just posted. Or don't. Not bothered either way.

FrothByte

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Nemebro already posted the Vanessa clip, but here it is again. You can very clearly see his head turn, follow the bullet, and then still make an effort to go after it (obviously, he was too slow), but it gets the point across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34LHRsiaCD8

Actually, my argument regarding Ozy is that being able to catch one bullet and then getting floored in the process doesn't mean that you can continually avoid punches and kicks from someone who also has enhanced speed.

And anyway, Wade and Ozy's feats are not the same. Casually cutting a bullet in half with a precision strike > falling over while catching one. So, comparing feats, Wade would be faster than Ozy as well.

But yeah, I am done here. Accept the clip I just posted. Or don't. Not bothered either way.

That Vanessa clip is actually more consistent with DP's regular speed. Tracking a bullet flying across the breadth of the room but being too slow to do no more than turn your head and take a step in it's direction AFTER it has passed you is quite a lot slower than being able to cut a bullet in half which was fired at you from point blank range. This speed feat I have no issues accepting.

But again, it only emphasizes my point: That the bullet cutting feat is very inconsistent with DP's general speed. If he truly was capable of that kind of speed then in this clip with Vanessa, he should have easily been able to reach out and push that bullet in a different trajectory so as to miss Vanessa. Or heck even just outright block it with the brick he's holding.

NemeBro

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ozy being not much faster than Cap is no issue for me. Same thing as DP being not that much faster than Cap is no issue for me.

However, it seemed that you and Vault were implying he was much faster, and to use the bullet-cut scene as a basis for his speed would have made him a speedster at least faster than Wonder Woman... which would make him a lot faster than Cap. That's what I have issues with because it's completely out of character for DP to be attributed that kind of speed. Deadpool is much faster than Cap though. He's much faster than Ozymandias as well.

And no, Diana is faster still than Deadpool. thumb up