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post crisis vs peak grav

Is Flash allowed to time travel?

no

Is he allowed to speed steal?

how would speed steal beat someone that controls the Density of the Gravity?

Flash could just slip in and out of the Speed Force and attack Gravy that way. Or use the Gravity to enhance his Mass Punch.

Oh yeah, is he allowed to drag Graviton into the speed force?

I don't think he likes you, DS. LOL!

what would happen if graviton increase Mass and gravity of flash so much he wouldn't be able to jump out stand

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
how would speed steal beat someone that controls the Density of the Gravity?

If you think that, then why create the thread in the first place? Since you are so sure Graviton would win?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Is Flash allowed to time travel?



Can Flash seriously do that in ordinary canon comics?

He really IS just about the most unbeatable DC character if he can do THAT at will ...




Originally posted by Faceless808
I don't think he likes you, DS. LOL!


D once paid me the compliment of being the author he'd most like to see for Wonder Woman:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=650084&pagenumber=1

Not gonna lie, if DC ever accepted a serious writing submission from him involving Flash, I'd go through quite a bit of effort to get ahold of that story ...

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
what would happen if graviton increase Mass and gravity of flash so much he wouldn't be able to jump out stand

I dont see that happening becaise the fact flash can prodice an IMP by definition means he can move infinite mass. Of tje foir fundermemtal Universal forces gravity is the weakest. Flash uses speead to vibrate his molecules and break the stromgest (strong nuclear force). He can also achieve to a much higher degree under his own power things gravity needs to be vastly intense to achieve. Things like bending time and space.

There are ways Graviton could use his powers creatively to F Flash up but his standard methods arent giving him a majority vs Flash IMHO. I'm open to arguments to the contrary though.

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
how would speed steal beat someone that controls the Density of the Gravity?

Originally posted by spetznaz
If you think that, then why create the thread in the first place? Since you are so sure Graviton would win?





Exactly how many times have you seen Flash USE that technique?

I have difficulty recollecting even HEARING that term in relation to Flash until DS brought it up in some Wonder Woman thread months ago.

When did this suddenly become a regular Flash go-to strategy?

They're all gone, so will edit my iamges when I'm home from work.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider


Can Flash seriously do that in ordinary canon comics?

He really IS just about the most unbeatable DC character if he can do THAT at will ...

On my phone, so let's see how well this works..

Casually mid sentence popping through the time stream (no amps oR anything):
https://s5.postimg.cc/l9aoajp07/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/3kniwo2mv/image.jpg

Casually making time clones (so Graviton will have multiple Flashes to deliver with):
https://s5.postimg.cc/c2ns9iudz/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/mqrj8d4d3/image.jpg

And yes, he beats himself in a race.

Here, he races Death through space and time. Casually, without breaking a sweat. Context: he had just regained his powers after losing them:
https://s5.postimg.cc/eo2joiyjb/image.jpg

Even IF pinned (and I still can't see Graviton outspending Wally...)

He can still speed steal without touching.

https://s5.postimg.cc/orvef1npz/2950485-speedstealdistance.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/8m43piouv/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/t2jplhoif/image.jpg

Powers on, means Wally isn't a blundering idiot I guess:
https://s5.postimg.cc/a9y771wev/image.jpg

If he has his speed mind on, he's not getting caught out. He actually uses his powers, one of which is being able to out think the ultimate computer.

I mean, this is the guy who is too fast for Thawne to even see:
https://s5.postimg.cc/v1mj7oeon/zomfaeye3.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Even IF pinned (and I still can't see Graviton outspending Wally...)

He can still speed steal without touching.

https://s5.postimg.cc/orvef1npz/2950485-speedstealdistance.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/8m43piouv/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/t2jplhoif/image.jpg

Powers on, means Wally isn't a blundering idiot I guess:
https://s5.postimg.cc/a9y771wev/image.jpg

I mean, this is the guy who is too fast for Thawne to even see:
https://s5.postimg.cc/v1mj7oeon/zomfaeye3.jpg

How would he able to speed steal if flash's weight is increased tons of tons?

You're assuming that Graviton is able to out speed a guy who was faster than Death, and was faster than himself. Faster than Professor Zoom.

What is this assumption based on?

So, Graviton standa there, Flash is still pinned.

Or, again peak Graviton had every hero on earth in his grip, many of which have powers that work without touching (TK, TP) and had no issues, so, yeah.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're assuming that Graviton is able to out speed a guy who was faster than Death, and was faster than himself. Faster than Professor Zoom.

What is this assumption based on?

faster than death is unquantifiable, also they were running outside of time/space during that race I.E UNQUANTIFIABLE. Professor Zoom wasn't FTL, period and neither was wally

each time Wally runs FTL, he dissappears into the speed force, and THAT'S consistent. even in rebirth with his battle with abra kadabra he disappeared into the speed force going FTL

Originally posted by riv6672
So, Graviton standa there, Flash is still pinned.

Or, again peak Graviton had every hero on earth in his grip, many of which have powers that work without touching (TK, TP) and had no issues, so, yeah.

That would cause his mental functions to cease and his grip on the battlefield would stop.

Still not seeing anything that says Graviton outspeeds Wally, though.

Powers on doesn't mean the entire battlefield is held down in a grip, any more than a TK related character starts a match with it under his grip, Or Dr Strange/Fate starting a match with their spells already cast/in effect.

And yet everything you say no to has been done and accepted here.
So, yeah, it applies to Graviton, too.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're assuming that Graviton is able to out speed a guy who was faster than Death, and was faster than himself. Faster than Professor Zoom.

What is this assumption based on?

Probably that gravity seems to affect things universally in our reality at the same time ACROSS the Universe. If Graviton is able to control a force like that ...

Originally posted by riv6672
Aaanyway, i see every one of my points is being ignored.
That gives me that last 2% towards Graviton winning.

Because of this:



Kitty doesn't go around 24/7 phased.

Graviton doesn't go around 24/7 with the entire battlefield in his grip.

Edit:



Every fight here starts w. Kitty phased, DS.
Powers on.
Applies to Graviton.
It is what it is, guy.

Doesn't mean it's correct, or valid.

Riv, DS quoted the rule above which perfectly addresses what you are saying.


"Neither side may take any offensive or defensive actions before the starting bell. Planning is allowed and powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up, but actions such as setting up forcefields, taking flight, or consciously activating powers is not."


Unless Graitron walks around with everyone crushed against the ground 24/7, it is a consciously activated power. Picture this: At the start of a track meet, when the official says, "On your marks, get set...."- *BANG* the starting gun goes off. That's when everyone moves. Running starts are not allowed. lol

http://i.imgur.com/ERH9OWA.jpg

not surprising, frankly, as the sf is so haxx and tends to negate a lot of physics like friction and...gravity as flash can run on clouds, up huge buildings and has even run in the air. he would ko graviton before graviton had the chance to think about controlling gravity unless you want to play the pis card or low ball. the fight could be over in a picosecond--as he has done on panel.

now you know.

He's also run in space.....

Yeah, Flash wins this.

Graviton obliterates Flash considering how Barry struggled against Tangent Superman...

Graviton steals his game gravity.

Graviton wins 8/10 times.

Originally posted by leonidas
http://i.imgur.com/ERH9OWA.jpg

not surprising, frankly, as the sf is so haxx and tends to negate a lot of physics like friction and...gravity as flash can run on clouds, up huge buildings and has even run in the air. he would ko graviton before graviton had the chance to think about controlling gravity unless you want to play the pis card or low ball. the fight could be over in a picosecond--as he has done on panel.

now you know.

That doesn't mean Graviton would be unable to affect Flash or gravity has no limitations on him. SF allows him to counter the laws of physics, but it does not mean he is beyond them, he isn't. Especially in that era (I don't remember if that scan is before he transcended or before but it's close to the time period).

Flash being able to KO Graviton before he can react in a picosecond is only a little less likely than Graviton turning the Flash into paste instantly with his gravity.

I swear, some of these scenarios/claims...they are the exact opposite of what someone who consistently reads the Flash would actually claim.

Except all the claims have scans behind them.

I mean, if we want, I could show how when he was dying against Amazo, he resorted to speed steal, which is .... exactly what I'm envisaging?

Pis isn't used in forums.

Imagine you had a snail attacking you with a knife. Imagine it somehow was allowed to get up close to you. Now imagine it's slowly pushing a knife into you.....the moment it got too painful,you'd move out of the way, no? I mean, assuming you even let it build to that point.

Yet, in a comic, somehow, on a consistent basis, that snail would be stabbing away. And you'd be getting stabbed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except all the claims have scans behind them.

I mean, if we want, I could show how when he was dying against Amazo, he resorted to speed steal, which is .... exactly what I'm envisaging?

Pis isn't used in forums.

Imagine you had a snail attacking you with a knife. Imagine it somehow was allowed to get up close to you. Now imagine it's slowly pushing a knife into you.....the moment it got too painful,you'd move out of the way, no? I mean, assuming you even let it build to that point.

Yet, in a comic, somehow, on a consistent basis, that snail would be stabbing away. And you'd be getting stabbed.

I have read every Flash appearance since Barry's death in CoIE. I was defending Wally before being a Flash fan was popular.

This isn't about PIS. This is about actually knowing the characters? For example, I am assuming this Barry (The current Flash), speed stealing and SF manipulation is something Wally is far more proficient at. It does say PC (Which means Wally technically, but who knows.)

Or people saying he can run in space or air. I'm mad at myself for making that argument a decade ago. In retrospect, I was being too zealous. There are maybe 2/3 scenes that imply that he can, and about 200 that he can't?

Regardless, you can think of them as self-imposed limitations, mental blocks if you will. Or the limits of the SF. For every 1 high end feat, there is literally 5 more from the same writer that disproves the notion he wins easily, or even that he wins at all.

Graviton is especially a rogue that would give Flash hell due to the nature of his power set. I think this would be an interesting match up. Maybe speed blitz for the initial win if Iris or Linda is in mortal danger. Otherwise Graviton imo.

Flash will not pierce Graviton's shields.

https://i.imgur.com/swFfol9.jpg

Barry struggled like a crazy against Tangent Superman's TK-shields:

https://i.imgur.com/4Y9rzY0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JrWTed3.jpg

Graviton should win handily.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Flash will not pierce Graviton's shields.

https://i.imgur.com/swFfol9.jpg

Barry struggled like a crazy against Tangent Superman's TK-shields:

https://i.imgur.com/4Y9rzY0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JrWTed3.jpg

Graviton should win handily.

i don't know about tanget superman, is his abiltiies in relation to graviton?

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
i don't know about tanget superman, is his abiltiies in relation to graviton?

Not really.

He has telepathic and telekinetic abilities.

However comparing the effect of the shields works, or the gravitic powers to the TK when a force is exerted.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I have read every Flash appearance since Barry's death in CoIE. I was defending Wally before being a Flash fan was popular.

This isn't about PIS. This is about actually knowing the characters? For example, I am assuming this Barry (The current Flash), speed stealing and SF manipulation is something Wally is far more proficient at. It does say PC (Which means Wally technically, but who knows.)

Or people saying he can run in space or air. I'm mad at myself for making that argument a decade ago. In retrospect, I was being too zealous. There are maybe 2/3 scenes that imply that he can, and about 200 that he can't?

Regardless, you can think of them as self-imposed limitations, mental blocks if you will. Or the limits of the SF. For every 1 high end feat, there is literally 5 more from the same writer that disproves the notion he wins easily, or even that he wins at all.

Graviton is especially a rogue that would give Flash hell due to the nature of his power set. I think this would be an interesting match up. Maybe speed blitz for the initial win if Iris or Linda is in mortal danger. Otherwise Graviton imo.

I was assuming post Crisis to mean Wally, tbh. Not Barry (hence my scans being Wally centric)

With regards to the limitations of the SF, it can't be that as every (ok, maybe 90%, as I cannot be 100% sure) showing has shown it to be infinite in nature, or close enough in all intents and purposes.

With regards to the mindset, it's a bit like the Orion/Annihilators thread. You assumed they fought competently as a team, with a good use of their abilities - which is perfectly fine, and I agree with that. Ikon specifically said she beat them due to her using their mental blocks against them, but in a forum thread, we assume they're not idiots/are actually serious about fighting.

Fair enough.

In this thread, Wally is also serious about fighting. So is Graviton, obv.

But a serious Flash would be doing....well, the only thing he can, lol. Or at least, the attack he uses in 90% of his fights. I'm not arguing he burns Gravitons eyes out, or turns his blood into steam, or magnetises him, or blows him up - even though I DO have comic scans of him doing all this.

Match starts, he either punches if he wants to get physical, or speedsteals if not. No prep means no shield for Graviton, or no crushing etc.

Good luck at surprising Graviton.

http://i.imgur.com/nr83iit.jpg

Originally posted by Baziemarc123
how would speed steal beat someone that controls the Density of the Gravity?

Same way he stole speed from a planet.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Graviton wins 8/10 times.



That doesn't mean Graviton would be unable to affect Flash or gravity has no limitations on him. SF allows him to counter the laws of physics, but it does not mean he is beyond them, he isn't. Especially in that era (I don't remember if that scan is before he transcended or before but it's close to the time period).

Flash being able to KO Graviton before he can react in a picosecond is only a little less likely than Graviton turning the Flash into paste instantly with his gravity.

I swear, some of these scenarios/claims...they are the exact opposite of what someone who consistently reads the Flash would actually claim.

meh, my post was a bit tongue in cheek and was made in regards to what felt like a bait thread.

the sf definitely means he CAN be beyond the laws of physics--well beyond in fact. he routinely defies gravity going up buildings and running over vast bodies of water. the speed force cancels friction and lets him routinely break the speed of light and break the time barrier. i mean here he even grabbed a singularity and survived the gravity in a black hole:

https://imgur.com/a/1XQrcvF

hard to defy physics more than that. but sure, there is more pis in flash than any other comic so of course he doesn't operate at attosecond levels all the time. but without pis, there is no reason at all he can't and wouldn't end it instantly. that's why no one argues flash. graviton would need to use his powers at their max from nearly the get go to have a chance in this. maybe he would. but even if we remove pis he doesn't go around creating black holes with his power. without pis though flash kills him before his neurons can fire. /shrug

flash easily

Graviton wins every single time. Flash sucks in comics and I am not going to give him the benefit or the doubt here.

lol yeah, why bother using the forum rules to try and determine a winner....

Flash receive wins against people he doesnt suppose to because people debate primarily off of powerset. I can post scans of elites standing in one spot tanking his punches without a scratch. This is why I will always say Flash is the most overestimated character on KMC.

Lol I can think of a few more overly estimated characters that get wanked here more than Flash.

Flash.

Originally posted by Faceless808
Lol I can think of a few more overly estimated characters that get wanked here more than Flash.

The characters that you can think of, do they budge people outside of their tier? That's the difference here. I can understand people over estimating Superman, Thor, Hulk and Surfer because they have showings that can sometimes justify them being placed in a certain tier and beings, no matter how powerful, isnt standing in one spot tanking some of these people attacks. It just doesnt happen. Now, if someone were to try to post anything going against what I am saying, lol, the scan they will post is Flash best high and that's against Antimonitor. Not enough to justify him taking on Odin, Galactus, pulling a majority against Surfer, Orion, Thor, etc... especially when 95% of the time, he is fodder.

Originally posted by carver9
Flash receive wins against people he doesnt suppose to because people debate primarily off of powerset. I can post scans of elites standing in one spot tanking his punches without a scratch. This is why I will always say Flash is the most overestimated character on KMC.

Even if we debate the power-sets, Graviton wins. ^^

Originally posted by carver9
The characters that you can think of, do they budge people outside of their tier? That's the difference here. I can understand people over estimating Superman, Thor, Hulk and Surfer because they have showings that can sometimes justify them being placed in a certain tier and beings, no matter how powerful, isnt standing in one spot tanking some of these people attacks. It just doesnt happen. Now, if someone were to try to post anything going against what I am saying, lol, the scan they will post is Flash best high and that's against Antimonitor. Not enough to justify him taking on Odin, Galactus, pulling a majority against Surfer, Orion, Thor, etc... especially when 95% of the time, he is fodder.



Why is it so hard to give Flash credibilty? Because he is not powerful in the traditional sense? Because all he does is run? Flash's connection with the Speed Force does allow him to do things no one else can. Speed steal, IMP, time travel. Certainly enough to put him in the Herald tier. And since when is it a criteria for a herald to be able to take on Odin and Galactus? Or pulling a majority agaisnt high heralds like Surfer, Orion, or Thor? NOt many characters make that list. And him being fodder 95% of the time really fits in with his popularity right now. He has a lot more feats than just the one against Antimonitor. You might not like them, but they are there. At one time, he was considered one of the three most powerful members of the JLA, along with Hal Jordan and Superman.

I see this a lot, so let's see how a Flash fights, IF we are arguing powerset....

Bell rings, he clones himself:
https://s5.postimg.cc/c2ns9iudz/image.jpg

Some clones will burn Graviton's eyes out:
https://s5.postimg.cc/nass5ttg7/image.jpg

Some will boil his blood (70% water!):
https://s5.postimg.cc/yjkqyubfb/image.jpg

Some willthen make him explode:
https://s5.postimg.cc/vn6wq1kd3/vibwale2.jpg

By making him overload with infinite energy:
https://s5.postimg.cc/bxffm3xp3/overload.jpg

Others will distract him with lightspeed missiles:
https://s5.postimg.cc/yv6spch93/image.jpg

Before throwing him into the Speed Force:
https://s5.postimg.cc/unudzk9cn/image.jpg

Whilst using afterimages to fool Graviton:
https://s5.postimg.cc/6qqi5ues7/afterim.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/jw60by8nr/afterim2.jpg

And dumping any metal for miles around on him:
https://s5.postimg.cc/wrilcgdav/elctromag2.jpg

And this will all take place within a picosecond:
https://s5.postimg.cc/ivo55sl7b/image.jpg

Because remember, Flashes move faster than thought!:
https://s5.postimg.cc/iq6lqw9qv/image.jpg

THAT is Flash arguing, using pure powersets.

Or, OTOH, he runs really fast and punches Graviton before he can react.

What I learned from this thread is that Graviton wins when Flash just stands there , looking stupid.

pretty much. so, the typical flash thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
pretty much. so, the typical flash thread.

Flashwank

Originally posted by abhilegend
What I learned from this thread is that Graviton wins when Flash just stands there , looking stupid.



Remember a second to flash should be more than millions of years.
That means, flash should start the fight with Graviton frozen. Graviton will stay frozen for millions of years or more. Within this millions of years or more, Graviton would not have made one single action (which includes creating a shield).

Gravitor makes it so heavy that time stops flowing, then he speedblitzes Flash.