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Cell Saga, no sword.

Pre-ROSAT.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8e/63/03/8e6303ded8815a0082464651ab39522d.gif

SSJ Trunks ~ SSJ Goku during the Cyborg Freeza arc. This means that Trunks' base PL must have been right at 3,000,000 as well.

It's highly unlikely that Tien's PL was anywhere near that by the Cell saga. I mean, Krillin has been repeatedly confirmed as the most powerful earthling, and even his highest-credited PL during the Freeza saga was only 75,000. Can't imagine Tien boosting his powers enough to even remotely contend with Trunks in the 3 years between the Cyborg Freeza and Android/Cell sagas, tbh -- that'd be upwards of a 40x increase in power(and that's IF he was equal to Krillin during the Freeza saga, which is unlikely.)

Now, Tien might be able to pull a win IF Trunks just stands there and lets him spam Kikihos or w/e. Sans that, Trunks should stomp the shit out of him.

Krillin and Tien both have amazing feats for being "just" earthlings, like, outside of the movies, injuring both Buu and 1st form Cell with basic attacks.

Neither of them 'injured' Boo, but that's irrelevant since this fight is set during the Cell Saga.

Anywho, Tien was able to spam Semi-Perfect Cell will Kikohos for a little bit. The beams didn't hurt Cell at all, but they did push him down a few times, buying #18 a few moments to escape(which is still impressive given the power discrepancy between them.) However, the Kikoho is a very linear attack that only works if the target is standing still... And it also completely taxed Tien back then.

As I said above, Tien's *only* chance here is hoping that Trunks stands perfectly still long enough for him to powerup and successfully drop Kikohos on his head. Aside from that, this is Trunks' fight to lose... Trunks should realistically be able to one/two-shot Tien, imo. /shrug

To paraphrase toriyama "Powerlevels are bullsh*t" he seriously only introduced them to show how inaccurate they were. Tien should take this. His technique was enough stall semi perfect cell and trunks is relatively undisciplined as a fighter. I don't think he can simply overpower tien in his base form.

PLs aren't "bullshit" when we can still gauge them, though.

On average, the power discrepancy between them would be FAR too great for Tien to overcome it with his Kikoho, imo(that attack is extremely one-dimensional.) This is definitely Trunks' fight to lose.

It's impossible to gauge them though, especially with earthlings. Their power is multiplies several time over when using a technique so saying something gas a "base" powerlevel is meaningless. If you go by feats, yamcha krillin and tien are several times stronger than the ginyu force despite having a powerlevel of only 75,000. Yamcha' s resting power during the Android saga is evidently equal to where gero predicted goku would be, and he apparently gathered frieza's cells for cell. Powerlevels mean nothing

Exactly, "when using a technique". But an increased PL for the moment in which you are charging a specific attack is NOT representative of one's 'normal' PL. Moreover, the Kikoho takes a decent amount of time to charge, taxed Tien quite a bit, and is EXTREMELY one-dimensional/easily avoidable in a forum battle. IF it somehow managed to strike Trunks, however, Tien could win... But that's one hell of a big "if", given the power discrepancy between them(along with the Kikoho's limited nature.)

As for Yamcha: he would have only been 'equal' to Saiyan saga Goku, given that Gero had NO records of Goku's power increases after he left earth(that's why he was shocked by the Super Saiyan transformation, for example.) This means that Yamcha's MAXIMUM PL would have been ~32,000, because that was the MAXIMUM PL Goku achieved during the Saiyan saga.

Tien was stronger than Yamcha, but weaker than Krillin(whose maximum recorded PL on Namek was ~75,000.) Even putting Tien's PL in the hundreds of thousands during the Cell saga would be a HUGE overestimation, tbh... Trunks' PL, on the other hand, was irrefutably no less than 3 MILLION.


You can argue against the validity of PLs all you want, but facts are facts. Tien only has ONE way to win... And that's IF Trunks(who is logically many, many times more powerful) just stands in one spot long enough for him to charge, and successfully deliver, the Kikoho. But if Trunks actually, you know, ATTACKS Tien, he'll end this with a punch or two. Again, this is Trunks' fight to lose.

Anyone think Super Trunks and Cell are different people?

Super reinforced there's alt Future Trunks timelines, after all. (Z did it first, with Cell being from a timeline where he kills Trunks. Funny how the best villian in Z isn't even canon to the mainstream timeline.)

I thought the neo tribeam was just a video game thing, like yamcha's extra large spirit ball

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
It's not just the tri beam. Piccolo and goki's Powerlevels jumped around so much in the radditz fight from simple things like taking off their cloths and getting into a fighting stance. Krillin's powerlevel was only a little stronger than radditz, but he was still able to make kappa bleed and wasted like give siabaman with one shot. How is this at all pertinent to Tien vs. Trunks? Given the massive discrepancy between their PLs, this would more likely play out like Freeza vs. Nail, tbh.

Or if you prefer, I can provide numerous examples of weaker characters being entirely useless against more powerful characters..?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Also krillin with his meager 75,000 was able to cut off frieza's ta8l and out run him for a bit. ...With a Kienzan(arguably *the* most haxx cutting-attack in the series.) Scans of Tien using one?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Powerlevels aren't suppose to make sense. AFTER the Freeza saga was concluded, sure. Before that, however, PLs were actually a very accurate means of gauging characters.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Also, gero knew about saiyan biology and that they get a massive spike in power after a near death expierence and had record of 32,000 goku breaking every bone in his body and be8ng beat down by vegeta. Given his knowledge of goku's training habits, the three year gap before their arrival, and the fact that all of the androids could keep up a super saiyan, it's pretty clear that he projected goku's powerlevel to be way higher than 32,000. Gero had absolutely NO idea what Saiyans were truly capable of. That's why he was utterly shocked by Goku's(and especially Vegeta's) powers.

But even IF you want to pretend like Tien's PL was ~2 million by the Cell saga, it would mean his power increased by nearly 1,100x between the Saiyan and Android sagas... Which is WAY too much of a gain for an earthling. For a point of reference, even Krillin's PL 'only' increased by about 42x between the Saiyan and Namek sagas... And that was WITH his full potential being mystically unlocked by the goddamn Namekian Buddha. Tien obviously never had that luxury/cheat, which is why he never caught back up to Krillin after Namek, and also why I am not buying the theoretical numbers you're throwing around for him.

Moreover, this is also assuming that Trunks' PL didn't increase at all in that 3 year gap(and it most definitely did.) So I'm actually underrating Trunks here, but that's because I have no legitimate reason to start speculating/theorizing how much his power may have grown during that time. It was undoubtedly 3 million during the Cyborg Freeza arc, and that is MORE than enough to stomp the bejesus out of Cell saga Tien on average.

*Keep in mind, a PL of 3 million is > Freeza's 2nd AND 3rd forms, and is enough to stalemate his suppressed 4th form. Barring a Kikoho, Cell saga Tien isn't doing that -- none of the earthlings are, tbh.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
And I see you're doing the super route and forgetting every single thing about tien besides hos tri beam. Tien' s multi arm technique, his ability to redirect no blasts, and his superior martial arts are all things that could net him a win. What on earth do you think these attacks count for with a power difference THIS significant?

I say again: the ONLY possible way for Tien to win is IF he manages to successfully drop a Kikoho on Trunks. Barring that, he's getting stomped.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
And if you REALLY want to play the power level game, consider this. Nappa no showed tien's tribeam back in the saiyan saga and he was only roughly 5x as strong. Since cell was affected much more, we should assume the gap between cell saga tien and him is much smaller, putting tien comfortably somewhere past the millions mark. Aside from pushing him down for a few seconds, Tien's Kikohos literally did NOTHING to Cell. Great feat for Tien(even though he still had to catch Cell off guard), but acting like that alone puts him "comfortably past the millions mark", and makes him a legitimate challenge to Trunks, is a massive stretch. It was ultimately an outlier that occurred in a moment of duress(when heroes are typically at their 'peak'.) Nothing more.

Hell, I wouldn't even put Krillin's PL in the millions by the Cell saga, and he is > Tien. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
It's highly unlikely that Tien's PL was anywhere near that by the Cell saga. I mean, Krillin has been repeatedly confirmed as the most powerful earthling, and even his highest-credited PL during the Freeza saga was only 75,000.

Yeah, and even that is wild and baseless right Galan ?

reading this thread title alone pissed me off lmao

i ****ing hate the earthlings man

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
The whole freakin point of Powerlevels is that they don't work. Never in the saiyan or namek saga did they give an accurate representation of power. Um... Yes, they most certainly did work in nearly every case back then.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Trunks' powerlevel scouted was 5, remember. You're aware that the Z fighters can suppress their ki and only powerup when they want/need to, right..? Why even bring this up..?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Sure gero didn't know about saiyan biology. He accidentally tripped into goku and vegeta DNA and fused them into his super computer to make a super bug fetus. Clearly cell was just chance. Gero only knew about Saiyan biology up to the Saiyan saga... But it wasn't until the Namek saga that the Saiyans' powers grew exponentially. That's why Gero himself outright stated that their powers vastly exceeded his wildest expectations.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Tien made roughly a 10x gain in under a year for the saiyans and if his year with king kai was comparable to goku's(it should be greater considering he crossed snake way faster and had powerful sparring partners) then that's at least another 20x. And he has three years added on top of those gains. Again, Tien's PL would've had to increase by OVER 1,600x between the Saiyan and Android sagas for him to even begin to contend with Trunks on average. For a point of reference, that's about how much Goku's PL increased during the entire Namek saga -- counting his multiple zenkais AND the friggin Super Saiyan transformation.

Tien isn't a Saiyan... In fact, he is WEAKER than Krillin. Why on earth should I believe he experienced a gain THAT massive between arcs? Is Chiaotzu really that good of a training partner, iyo?

I say again, even AFTER Krillin's potential was mystically unlocked by Guru, he 'only' experienced a max increase of ~40x... FOURTY. Earthlings aren't Saiyans. none

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Goku got taken out by a ring laser. Yes, SSB Goku was nearly killed by Sorbet's ring laser when he was DISTRACTED, and therefore VULNERABLE to a cheap-shot attack that would have otherwise been ineffectual. Same basic thing happened with Cell: he was DISTRACTED by #18, and that made him VULNERABLE to a cheap-shot attack from Tien that would have otherwise been ineffectual... But again, the Kikohos ultimately just pushed Cell down for a few seconds, which allowed #18 to flee -- the attacks caused NO damage/harm to Cell whatsoever, and the effort/power expenditure very nearly killed Tien himself.

You essentially just cheapened Tien's feat by using this analogy, but that's okay... I won't run with it.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
That's the whole point of ultra trunks. He has no skill in fighting and thought bigger power means bigger win. Even when goku and goten trunks show off their mastered ssforms he still doesn't get it. He doesn't have the same instinct or training the other saiyans have or tien. Again, how is this at all pertinent to Tien vs. Trunks? Given the massive discrepancy between their PLs, this would more likely play out like Freeza vs. Nail, tbh.

I think you've lost touch with the significance of power discrepancies, tbh. In DBZ a power difference of LESS THAN 2x is still enough for one character to utterly STOMP another without much effort at all(I can provide numerous examples if need be.) In the case of Tien vs. Trunks there is logically FAR more than a mere 2x difference between them.

As I have reiterated: Tien has ONE possible way that he MIGHT be able to win, and that's IF Trunks just stands there and lets him drop a one-dimensional Kikoho on his head. Barring that, there's not a goddamn thing Tien can do here... This is Trunks' fight to lose, period.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yeah, and even that is wild and baseless right Galan ? Depends who you ask...

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I thought the neo tribeam was just a video game thing, like yamcha's extra large spirit ball

The wiki article on it seems pretty solid:

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Neo_Tri-Beam

It's not something new for Z-fighters to invent the superior versions of their techniques.

The Neo-Kikoho is what Tien used against Cell, brehs:
https://i.imgur.com/Y3AP33R.jpg

Is that why piccolo was able to kill radditz who was doubled his power level? Or how krillin killed three siabaman with one shot? Or how he cut off frieza's tail? Or yajirobe cutting vegeta's tail? Lower levels have been consistently able to hurt higher Powerlevels. Cell even says ultra Trunks' powerlevel is much higher than his.

And saying gero thought goku would only have his saiyan saga level of power after four years is seriously one of stupidest logic defying excuses I have ever heard.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Is that why piccolo was able to kill radditz who was doubled his power level? Right, when the Z Fighters successfully deliver their charged/special/haxx attacks they can occasionally harm or defeat characters who are more powerful overall.

Why in the heck do you think I keep saying that Tien's Kikoho can potentially drop Trunks, despite Tien himself being FAR weaker than Trunks on average? Are you keeping up?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Or how krillin killed three siabaman with one shot? Krillin's PL during the Saiyan saga = 1,770. The Saibamens' PLs = 1,200ish.

That's why he was able to kill them.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Or how he cut off frieza's tail? ...With a Kienzan(arguably *the* most haxx cutting-attack in the series.) In fact, the Kienzan never once failed against an opponent in canon until SSB Goku hucked a few at a powered-up Jiren during the ToP.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Or yajirobe cutting vegeta's tail? When Vegeta was vastly weakened(near death, actually) AND distracted.

But how is that pertinent here? Trunks is the one with a sword; not Tien.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Lower levels have been consistently able to hurt higher Powerlevels. K. You want me to post the multitude of cases where weaker characters have been utterly useless against more powerful characters? I'd be more than willing to do so.

Your call.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Cell even says ultra Trunks' powerlevel is much higher than his. Because Cell himself was vastly suppressing his power at that point. We never saw Perfect Cell's FULL power until he used it against SSJ2 Gohan.

That said, once Cell was done berating Trunks, he assumed the EXACT SAME USSJ-esque transformation just to knock him down a few more pegs. IOW, USSJ Trunks was NEVER more powerful than Cell -- not really.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
And saying gero thought goku would only have his saiyan saga level of power after four years is seriously one of stupidest logic defying excuses I have ever heard. Yes, because baselessly assuming that Tien's PL increased by hundreds/thousands of times between arcs is SO much more logical, right? Lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
Depends who you ask...

Originally posted by Galan007
You were right Stilt, you can wear my kimono now:
https://i.imgur.com/Y3AP33R.jpg

No one wears my kimono... No one.