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Barry Allen vs. Wally West

Who takes this?

I thought Wally is always portrayed as Barry's superior ?

Wally.

Barry. Far superior tactician.

Wally, as he's actually more powerful

Originally posted by panthergod
Barry. Far superior tactician.

This is untrue.

..lol its not even close to being disputable.

Where has Barry demonstrated far superior tactical abilities?

He's being an idiot. If you read a Barry Allen comic and a Wally West comic, the only thing you'd note is that the former has more of a scientific background, and the latter is more creative with his powers.

When Wally was the Flash, he use to really build Barry up in his head. Barry could do this, Barry could do that etc. Turns out, he already surpassed Barry, he was simply looking at him through the eyes of a kid at his hero.

Barry is ironically written as less sure, and more inexperienced than when he guest-starred here and there during Wally's tenure. Which makes sense from a writer's perspective.

Wally also mainlines the SF. I never understood how Barry generating it when he runs makes sense but I guess it doesn't matter. Wally started turning into SF energy and breaking past the SF barrier while Barry couldn't keep up at that threshold.

Barry generating the SF isn't even an edge because it exists separate from Barry at different times.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He's being an idiot. If you read a Barry Allen comic and a Wally West comic, the only thing you'd note is that the former has more of a scientific background, and the latter is more creative with his powers.

When Wally was the Flash, he use to really build Barry up in his head. Barry could do this, Barry could do that etc. Turns out, he already surpassed Barry, he was simply looking at him through the eyes of a kid at his hero.

Barry is ironically written as less sure, and more inexperienced than when he guest-starred here and there during Wally's tenure. Which makes sense from a writer's perspective.

Actuaaly, what I said is not up for dispute. Barry is a far better tactician than Wally. He's more creative more knowledgeable about physics and applications of speed, and more competent. Even a cursory reading establishes this.

Originally posted by panthergod
Actuaaly, what I said is not up for dispute. Barry is a far better tactician than Wally. He's more creative more knowledgeable about physics and applications of speed, and more competent. Even a cursory reading establishes this.

He can't time travel without the cosmic treadmill. Wally can.

He can't speed steal. Wally can.

He can't do half the applications of speed that Wally can.

I ask again:. What showings of Barry has shown him to be more tactical?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He can't time travel without the cosmic treadmill. Wally can.

He can't speed steal. Wally can.

He can't do half the applications of speed that Wally can.

I ask again:. What showings of Barry has shown him to be more tactical?

Yes he can.. Easily. wyd are you talking about?

Irrelevant. Versatlity is not tactical superiority.

Read his books. He's more creative knowledgeable and formidable.

But its a shame he's been nerfed for Wally Stans.

Originally posted by panthergod
Yes he can.. Easily. wyd are you talking about?

Irrelevant. Versatlity is not tactical superiority.

Read his books. He's more creative knowledgeable and formidable.

But its a shame he's been nerfed for Wally Stans.

Wait, he's more creative, knowledgeable, and tactical, but can't do half the things Wally can, despite being the source of the SF? That makes sense.

Please show some scans of his tactical superiority, AND him casually time traveling with no treadmill, with focus (Wally doesn't need it to focus on specific points in time).

Ughhhh... Nothing worse than Flasshhats. I'd rather deal with Superfaaghs and Gammatards.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait, he's more creative, knowledgeable, and tactical, but can't do half the things Wally can, despite being the source of the SF? That makes sense.


Yes, it does. Read his books. Wally needed the speed force upgrades since he never matched Barry in raw skill with speed.


I'm not going to do your work for you.

Barry can time travel, easily, period. to even question that is conclusive proof that you have nothing valid to say here. He built the Cosmic Treadmill for more precision.. but the point stands. Wally needed to breakthrough tpo mainline the speedforce, and learned more applications due to training with Max Mercury.

One thing that isn't being acknowledged is that the whole 'wally surpassed barry' thing is originally concerning a retconed nerfed 90s Post Crisis Barry that never actually existed before 1986. they have now merged that nerfed version with the Post flash Rebirth/Flashpoint Barry.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Barry > Wally does not make any sense. It goes against the entire theme of the Flash books for like 30 years. It also doesn't make sense at the present moment, where Wally's ability to utilize various SF abilities and run faster is still consistent, despite him being in limbo for 5 years.

Wally>Barry makes no sense, since the Barry he surpassed never existed in DC comics canon, and is a retconned nerfed cipher to give Wally a ideal he should overcome, not the real Barry, who was casually FTL, time traveling and dimension hopping.

Originally posted by panthergod
Yes, it does. Read his books. Wally needed the speed force upgrades since he never matched Barry in raw skill with speed.


I'm not going to do your work for you.

Barry can time travel, easily, period. to even question that is conclusive proof that you have nothing valid to say here. He built the Cosmic Treadmill for more precision.. but the point stands. Wally needed to breakthrough tpo mainline the speedforce, and learned more applications due to training with Max Mercury.

One thing that isn't being acknowledged is that the whole 'wally surpassed barry' thing is originally concerning a retconed nerfed 90s Post Crisis Barry that never actually existed before 1986. they have now merged that nerfed version with the Post flash Rebirth/Flashpoint Barry.

'Please back your stance up'
'NO. Use Google'

Lol.

Wally doesn't need the treadmill for precision. Barry does. Wally is more skilled.

The rest of your post is A red herring.

So what if Wally learnt more applications through training with Max? Does it have any bearing on a fight between Barry and Wally? No, lol.

Wally was trained by Max, brokethrough his personal barriers and surpassed Barry but none of that counts because that Barry wasn't the real one and training is bad (See: I don't like it. So it doesn't count. Classic Superman-type Faggotry)?

Wally is STILL surpassing Barry. It happened literally last week. If Wally was the main Flash, Barry wouldn't only be unable to keep up, he'd be getting lapped.

The best part was Supermoron failing to get their attention

A certain poster whose name shall not be spoken reacted to it in this way:

https://s32.postimg.cc/htnqrr8lh/1251669.jpg

Everything I said was a fact. Th cBarry Wally surpassed was NOT the same Barry that existed pre 86, and now that lesser Barrys limitations are being conflated with Post IC/Rebirth canon.

Of course, a Thorfag wouldn't be knowledgeable enough to comprehend what is being referred to.

Regardless, my statement stands. Barry is far superior tactically.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The best part was Supermoron failing to get their attention

A certain poster whose name shall not be spoken reacted to it in this way:

https://s32.postimg.cc/htnqrr8lh/1251669.jpg

Originally posted by panthergod
He built the Cosmic Treadmill for more precision

Wally doesn't need it.

https://s5.postimg.cc/l9aoajp07/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/3kniwo2mv/image.jpg

Without using the Cosmic Treadmill for focus. Wally can casually pinpoint exact moments in time, and travel to that time.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/19c6178aad37c33a0dd2afed1cec2c70/tenor.gif

You really need to work on your pick-up lines, DS.

Bart is the best, that's all that really matters.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The best part was Supermoron failing to get their attention

A certain poster whose name shall not be spoken reacted to it in this way:

https://s32.postimg.cc/htnqrr8lh/1251669.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-14498e4b9480490bb853b0d1b1e02982-c

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wally doesn't need it.

https://s5.postimg.cc/l9aoajp07/image.jpg
https://s5.postimg.cc/3kniwo2mv/image.jpg

Without using the Cosmic Treadmill for focus. Wally can casually pinpoint exact moments in time, and travel to that time.

OK..?

Was this supposed to contradict anything I stated..?

Barry can go FTL, time travel under his own power, and has been doing so since literally his first appearance.

Wally needed speed force manipualtion. Barry just used pure speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'Please back your stance up'
'NO. Use Google'

Lol.

Wally doesn't need the treadmill for precision. Barry does. Wally is more skilled.

The rest of your post is A red herring.


Translation: You don't know shit about what I'm talking about, and cannot remotely address those facts.

Got it.

Wally overcome a Crisis retconeed Barry that never surpassed lightspeed until he died.

Meanwhile, in actuality Barry was FTL and time traveling under his ownj power since his first appearance.



Its the distinction between versatility and tactics. Hsving a more versatile powerset does NOT mean you are a superior tactician.

Lol you just sound like a dick, tbh.

Bump since this is one of the threads that has no stipulations. That means current versions of each character are considered by default.

So, who wins in a fight?

Wally is now cemented to be faster, I choose him.

Originally posted by panthergod
Translation: You don't know shit about what I'm talking about, and cannot remotely address those facts.

Got it.

Wally overcome a Crisis retconeed Barry that never surpassed lightspeed until he died.

Meanwhile, in actuality Barry was FTL and time traveling under his ownj power since his first appearance.



Its the distinction between versatility and tactics. Hsving a more versatile powerset does NOT mean you are a superior tactician.

1. Showcase number 4 isn't canon and hasn't been since 86. I very much doubt that's pertinent to the debate in question.

2. While IIRC Barry did time travel in that issue taking a criminal back to the far future who was using future weapons he never travelled FTL. I'm almost certain not stated he had to go close to that speed to travel time.

3. He had a lot of difficulty breaching the time barrier and for a while was running without moving at all. As I recall it that was the reason he came up with the cosmic treadmill.

4. What exactly does that have to do with Barry being better tactically as you claim. There were no tactics used.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wally is now cemented to be faster, I choose him. Simple and to the point. Can't find fault in that.

But both Barry and Wally have had to deal with situations where they're confronting superior speed, right? Or has every single one of those situations always been resolved with, "They faster than me? Brrrrrr, now I go faster than them. I win."???

Wally could also speed steal and lend, which Barry couldn't do. He could also casually hop through time without the use of a treadmill.

The Speed force is also more intimately connected to Wally, iirc.

So he's not only faster, he's also more skilled. For Barry to win, it would have to be a hero worship CIS holding back thing where Wally hesitates too much.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wally could also speed steal and lend, which Barry couldn't do. He could also casually hop through time without the use of a treadmill.

The Speed force is also more intimately connected to Wally, iirc.

So he's not only faster, he's also more skilled. For Barry to win, it would have to be a hero worship CIS holding back thing where Wally hesitates too much. Barry's never done either? Really? Barry's done stuff like move the timestream forward in a fight.

I was under the distinct impression that the comics portray Barry as literally being responsible for the Speedforce. Is that no longer the case?

Maybe. But Wally has definitely thrown that sort of hero worship in directly Barry's face when they've opposed each other. Not sure that sort of hero worship CIS applies any more.

He hasn't stolen speed afaik; that's a Wally special. Or lent speed. With the time travelling, I meant like really casual, like mid convo type stuff

I think Williamson retconned Barry being the progenitor of the Speed Force; now it just is a fundamental force of the univese/multiverse.

Yeah, agreed on that. I'm just trying to give Barry some advantage here

^ Really?

I was under the impression that Williamson was one of the authors that actually reinforced that notion. Maybe I am mixing the writers up.

After Flash War and Dark Knights: Death Metal, I think it's safe to say Wally has moved beyond that. Whether it happened in a healthy manner or not, could be argued. But yeah, Wally don't exactly go slack-jawed around Barry, no more.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He hasn't stolen speed afaik; that's a Wally special. Or lent speed.



Jay has also speed stolen and lent.
He stole Supes speed vs Abrakadabra,
BA's speed to time travel (without a treadmill), twice again for return.
When he took over training Bart he stole speed and lent it to Bart a few times (as if he used it he would risk a heart attack).
So not purely a Wally special.

Pretty sure Max Mercury has also used speed steal though I can't recall specifics.

Originally posted by beatboks
He stole Supes speed vs Abrakadabra,
BA's speed to time travel (without a treadmill), twice again for return.
When he took over training Bart he stole speed and lent it to Bart a few times (as if he used it he would risk a heart attack).
So not purely a Wally special. Okie dokie.

This is Wally's fight to lose.

In recent years, multiple sources have confirmed that Wally is the fastest being there is, period. As far as esoteric abilities are concerned, Wally has undoubtedly used the Speed-Force in ways that Barry never has -- and he's done so pretty consistently.

The only thing that might hinder Wally is if he starts fangirling over Barry during the fight... But I suppose the same could be said about Barry fangirling over Wally, so whatevs...

^ Barry's last fight with Thawne merit any consideration?

Which fight is that? I might not have even read it, to be honest. Can't recall any of the deets off hand.

^ The one in vol.4 penned by Venedetti.

Was there a subsequent one???

Are you talking about the New 52 series? If so, I'm sure I read it years ago... But I'll have to go back and look, because I don't remember anything about that fight.

^ This is the particular part of the fight I was thinking of when considering this match-up between Barry and Wally:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Barry_vs_Thawne.jpg

I dunno, maybe a more knowledgeable poster will point out how that ain't sh1t compared to what Wally has done.

Also... I miss posting thumbnails...

Christ, I can't even read that one from my laptop.

You need imgur or imgbb in your life, my friend.

^ I will work towards it in the short future. Do you have a sharp preference between those two hosting services?

Anyway, I hope I don't break the page. Here is the particular part of the fight I was thinking of when considering this match-up between Barry and Wally:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Barry_vs_Thawne02.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Barry_vs_Thawne03.jpg

Does this merit any consideration when pitting Barry against Wally?

Originally posted by ODG
^ I will work towards it in the short future. Do you have a sharp preference between those two hosting services? Toss a coin.

I've been using imgur for several years now. It has been pretty reliable for the most part, but occasionally images/links will randomly stop working for no apparent reason.

I haven't been using imgbb for quite as long, but have still noticed some of the same sporadic issues with links(there doesn't seem to be a perfect image hosting site, unfortunately)... Though I don't have a "Pro" account, so I suppose it's fully possible that paid accounts don't have any issues, ever.

Either are better than current PB, though. srug

Originally posted by ODG
Anyway, I hope I don't break the page. Here is the particular part of the fight I was thinking of when considering this match-up between Barry and Wally:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Barry_vs_Thawne02.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Barry_vs_Thawne03.jpg

Does this merit any consideration when pitting Barry against Wally? Hmm.

Barry is essentially saying that he can accelerate time to some extent, and is worried that he might bust a hole in time/space if he runs too fast. I don't think that is beyond Wally's capabilities, no.

Originally posted by Galan007
Barry is essentially saying that he can accelerate time to some extent, and is worried that he might bust a hole in time/space if he runs too fast. I don't think that is beyond Wally's capabilities, no. Reverse Flash, aka Professor Zoom, hasn't wrecked Wally before?

I had the general impression that both Eobard Thawne and Hunter Solomon were held in higher regard than the Flashes.

ODG you make a good point. The speed of the world had to be stolen in order for flash to equalize Zoom.
But Barry pushed the timestream forward in order to match Zoom.

2nd feat is more impressive because because he seemed to do it casually without effecting the rest of the world.