Iron Fist vs Deathstroke (Ikon suit)

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cdtm
Now that Batman has proven the Ikon can be circumvented, lets discuss whether Danny can do so.

I am, of course, biased, but I'll try and be fair, and want to see some feats I've been holding on to hold water here...

Vanguard
Originally posted by cdtm
Now that Batman has proven the Ikon can be circumvented
...


Of course he has roll eyes (sarcastic)


so lame

cdtm
Originally posted by Vanguard
Of course he has roll eyes (sarcastic)


so lame

Honestly, that's probably more Priest then Batman. Look back at his Black Panther work, and how he had Tony Stark and T'challa pull plot devices out of their butts in one upmanship, until they both died (And he pulled alt universe characters into it just so they could have a death match.)

cdtm
Anyways, I'll spare the theatrics and get right to it:

The Ikon suit is kinetic based, no? Essentially a tech version of Speedballs power?

A bit different in presentation, perhaps, but it's all about kinetic energy.


Guess who ignored Speedballs kinetic shield to KO him?



....wrong, it wasn't Danny. That Junzo Muto prick sad

But he used the Iron Fist to do it. The explanation, was that the Fist is magic, and can ignore physics.

Stands to reason Slade's Ikon won't fare any better, given the common ground
with Speedballs trick. If it can ignore his shield, it should also hit Deathstroke without producing the kinetic energy he needs to power his gravity sheath, effectively taking the full Iron Fist without any protection (As the suit has no additional
armor, as far as I know.)

cdtm
Not to toot my own horn, but it's a decent argument, no?


Kind of wish I came up with it back when the hype train was running through.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Anyways, I'll spare the theatrics and get right to it:

The Ikon suit is kinetic based, no? Essentially a tech version of Speedballs power?

A bit different in presentation, perhaps, but it's all about kinetic energy.


Guess who ignored Speedballs kinetic shield to KO him?



....wrong, it wasn't Danny. That Junzo Muto prick sad

But he used the Iron Fist to do it. The explanation, was that the Fist is magic, and can ignore physics.

Stands to reason Slade's Ikon won't fare any better, given the common ground
with Speedballs trick. If it can ignore his shield, it should also hit Deathstroke without producing the kinetic energy he needs to power his gravity sheath, effectively taking the full Iron Fist without any protection (As the suit has no additional
armor, as far as I know.)

The Ikon shield blocks metaphysical effects.

https://s33.postimg.cc/pwatu5edn/RCO019.jpg

DarkSaint85
Note, also, that the Promethium sword can absorb magical energy:

https://s33.postimg.cc/exzkbt563/RCO015.jpg

IOW, Damian here is slashing at DS with a magical sword:
https://s33.postimg.cc/ujgvvrwjv/RCO020.jpg

Note how he is able to block Damian with his arm. The destabilising effects that Wintergreen (the AI) is referring to is Nightshade's control.

Philosophía
Darksaint ending the thread like it stole his money.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The Ikon shield blocks metaphysical effects.

https://s33.postimg.cc/pwatu5edn/RCO019.jpg

The Beast also blocked Hellfire, from Skulled Avenger what's his face with a bike and chains.

It did not block the Iron Fist.

cdtm
Darksaint, fair game proving the suit can block exotics.

My main point, however, stands in that the Fist will not power the suit, due to skirting kinetic force. This argument does not depend on the shields defensive capability... It is irelevent, as the gravity sheath will never be activated,

cdtm
Philo:

Darksaints shut down better posters then I. smile

Honestly, considering this is Iron Fist we're talking about, as opposed to Hulk, and that he put in some effort against me, I consider it a bit of an honor. I realize I'm no Carver or... someone he'd argue against as hard as Carver, that must exist and isn't springing to mind right now... embarrasment

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Darksaint, fair game proving the suit can block exotics.

My main point, however, stands in that the Fist will not power the suit, due to skirting kinetic force. This argument does not depend on the shields defensive capability... It is irelevent, as the gravity sheath will never be activated,

When DS entered the Dark Dimension, there was no kinetic energy powering the suit.

Yet it blocked the passive magical environment.

DarkSaint85
Specifically, the 'metaphysical ectopsychic' environment.

It needs kinetic energy to charge, yes. But once charged, it runs just fine. Like a kinetic watch - just because you stop moving your arm, doesn't mean the watch suddenly stops.

cdtm
So it was charged before entering the dimension?

Or are you saying he somehow charged it up, in a space without kinetic energy?

DarkSaint85
He has it charged before going into battle. Like having ammo for his guns, or Superman having solar energy, or GL etc etc...

I mean, if the thread is 'what happens when IF fights a powerless GL who has no ring charge', that's different from 'IF vs GL'.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Darksaint, fair game proving the suit can block exotics.

My main point, however, stands in that the Fist will not power the suit, due to skirting kinetic force. This argument does not depend on the shields defensive capability... It is irelevent, as the gravity sheath will never be activated,

Why wouldn't it activate?

It activated just fine against a magically charged sword, why not a magically charged fist?

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why wouldn't it activate?

It activated just fine against a magically charged sword, why not a magically charged fist?

Because it requires kinetic energy to operate. The assumption being, if it ignores Speedballs field, it somehow functions without producing kinetic force.

It IS magic, so it's possible.

I was also assuming he didn't normally walk around with the gravity sheath activated, all the time. Cases where he enters the scene mid combat against Batman are one thing, but there' seems plenty of scenes where the sheath isn't running until he takes a bullet or rocket.

Although, I suppose he could just shoot himself to rev it up, but I don't remember him doing so.

DarkSaint85
Yet it activated to protect him against the magic in the Nightshade Dimension.

Without needing anyone to punch him. Or shoot him.

So it's not like Speedball.

As seen here:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The Ikon shield blocks metaphysical effects.

https://s33.postimg.cc/pwatu5edn/RCO019.jpg

You attempting to use the Beast, or Speedball, is not quite right, because they aren't Ikon Suits.

Magic was used against DS. He blocked it. Whether it be a magically charged sword, or passive environmental effects.

cdtm
If it activated against the effect, isn't it fairer to assume said effect produced kinetic energy? The alternative is to assume the Ikon can activate sans kinetic energy, and that requires proof. smile

And while I admit Danny knocking out Speedball past his kinetic manipulation field isn't conclusive proof his attack produces no kinetic energy, the implication is pretty strong (Has Speedballs field ever been brute forced past? If it has, there goes my argument..)

I referenced The Beast only to contrast the Iron Fist with other high level esoteric effects (Ghostriders hellfire). If this were The Beast vs Iron Fist, and one only read up to Matt's fight with Ghost Rider, they'd no doubt argue "If he can tank Johnny's flame, Danny isn't doing anything to him."

But he has. Ghost rider is certainly more powerful, but this is a great example of how power isn't everything.

As I once told Stilt, when it comes to power, the Iron Fist may be mid tier... But when it comes to esoteric plot device effects, I can show a laundry list of pretty
good feats.

For example, did you know Danny can absorb life force, like The Parasite? Danny's inferior clone, Davos, drained people into skeletons to empower himself. Danny, in turn, amped himself off people in a building (Without killing them, of course.)

He's absorbed other energies, as well. The Crimson Bands of Cytterok, for example. Or, he gave Wrecker and his divinely empowered beam a struggle, who only Dr. Strange has defeated with an effort (And to be fair, Danny lost in both cases, but it showcases how his powers mold to fit the plot.)

He can absorb nuclear energy from an atom bomb, or insta cure the Spider Virus from a mutated Shang Chi, or absorb enough chi to KO a death god set to reap souls from a cities worth of people, or rip open portals between life and death.

And I realize I'm rambling now, but my point is the Iron Fist is more then a megaton punch.

And again, the suit requires kinetic energy, which I strongly suspect the Iron Fist doesn't produce (It's that, or he brute forced past the field, which even Gladiator hasn't done..)

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
If it activated against the effect, isn't it fairer to assume said effect produced kinetic energy? The alternative is to assume the Ikon can activate sans kinetic energy, and that requires proof. smile



Erm, it's activated by DEATHSTROKE.

https://s5.postimg.cc/p39p29koj/1_2.jpg
There's your proof. His own superhuman reflexes can generate sufficient energy wink

Mindset
Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Erm, it's activated by DEATHSTROKE.

https://s5.postimg.cc/p39p29koj/1_2.jpg
There's your proof. His own superhuman reflexes can generate sufficient energy wink What does that even mean?

DarkSaint85
Moreover, the Ikon suit is not a forcefield like Speedball's:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11127/111277625/5730750-ikonsuit2.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Mindset
What does that even mean?

It's like an automatic watch that you shake to activate. DS can charge his suit up just by moving around.

IOW, it's always there.

Mindset
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's like an automatic watch that you shake to activate. DS can charge his suit up just by moving around.

IOW, it's always there. That's some bad writing.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85



Erm, it's activated by DEATHSTROKE.

https://s5.postimg.cc/p39p29koj/1_2.jpg
There's your proof. His own superhuman reflexes can generate sufficient energy wink

Well, there goes that theory. smile

I admit defeat.

Moving on, I've read the Deathstroke comic up until he donned the white suit, stopped reading, and hopped back on board for the Batman showdown. So I've seen the fight with Superman, and seen him steal Flash's speed (And then lose it).

Much is made of Supermans inability to breach the shield, Except he DID end up overloading it. His backers fail to mention that fact, but at the end the shield overloaded, sent out a wave of energy, and people died.

So my question here, is how much force do you believe Superman was actually using against the Ikon? More then, say, Spidey's best punch? More then Thing? Would he even take that risk, against a meta?

Obviously, Supes would hold back, the only question is whether Danny meets the minimum threshold.. Which is considerable for a mid tier. Enough to KO mortal Herc or a two appearance character who manhandled Thor.

carver9
I thought Danny have showing of moving in between a millisecond. If this is true, Deathstroke would be a snail in comparison?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm

Moving on, I've read the Deathstroke comic up until he donned the white suit, stopped reading, and hopped back on board for the Batman showdown. So I've seen the fight with Superman, and seen him steal Flash's speed (And then lose it).

Much is made of Supermans inability to breach the shield, Except he DID end up overloading it. His backers fail to mention that fact, but at the end the shield overloaded, sent out a wave of energy, and people died.

So my question here, is how much force do you believe Superman was actually using against the Ikon? More then, say, Spidey's best punch? More then Thing? Would he even take that risk, against a meta?

Obviously, Supes would hold back, the only question is whether Danny meets the minimum threshold.. Which is considerable for a mid tier. Enough to KO mortal Herc or a two appearance character who manhandled Thor.

Tbh, no idea how much Superman was using. Part of the confusion arises due to an interview from Priest who said it could tank punches from Darkseid or Superman.

He HAS taken punches from WW, so take what you will from that.

https://s5.postimg.cc/u8tqlwnf7/RCO015_1.jpg

And she was bloodlusted.

As for Superman, he was punching hard enough that the shockwaves (in that confined space) were powerful enough to make him bleed. So pretty hard.

Originally posted by carver9
I thought Danny have showing of moving in between a millisecond. If this is true, Deathstroke would be a snail in comparison?

Oh, hush you. Adults are talking.

MaZeRaIII
Originally posted by cdtm
Guess who ignored Speedballs kinetic shield to KO him? ....wrong, it wasn't Danny. That Junzo Muto prick sad

But he used the Iron Fist to do it. The explanation, was that the Fist is magic, and can ignore physics.

First of all, - Chi is not Magic, nor can factually be it, given the definition of magic and Chi don't suplement it. - Magic in its basic definition is described as the supernatural force i.e. beyond natural in simple terms as well as contains chaotic aspect. While Chi is your life-force, natural part of essence of whole, even Iron Fist's handbook calls Chi natural energy, not supernatural, but natural - http://phantombunburyist.freedomforceforever.com/cripp12/24/th_ironfistback.jpg

So by having the definition of both of those terms it's not hard to deduce what is what, plus Junzo called Chi mysitcal in his fight with Speedball, not magical, but mystical, there is basic word definition difference, - Something can be mysitcal without being magical, as the word mystical can mean mysterious (as in unknown, connected to spirituality) in its most basic and first definition as well as having other definitions that are not connected to magic, in fact when it comes to word mystical, it meaning magical is one of its last definitions as in ranked in lowest (look no further than any dictionary actually), thus the least expected useage of the word in that definition.

Overall associating the word mystical with magical because they sound the same is about as good assosciating the word terrific with terrible, because they sound similar, but you should get the point by now already.

Thus now that we got all that cleared up, let's return to Marvel Comics' Chi, since while there is a common trope i.e. science can't explain magic, with Chi it is completely different, - the Chi energy has been given scientific explanation as to what it is actually.

The evidence comes in form of Victor Alvarez/Power Man, who has chi based powers as stated in description and by Iron Fist as well. - https://imgur.com/a/rnrUIdy

Now the scientific aspect comes from Nightshade who comes in and explains how all of that works, by first depowering Victor of his Chi powers (basically proving her point really), then explaining that his powers from his body being embed in technological visor's absorbing crystal, which is basically an old tech piece and was introduced way back in 80s Marvel i think, it was used by 1 time goon villain named Shades, which gave him ability to shoot energy beams from that visor and that's it, nothing magical though. Now that lore is checked, she then proceeds to explain that whole "Chi" thing is him actually manipulating Bioelectric Field, so basically she implies Chi = Bioelectrical Energy, rather simple explanation, but totally nothing magical, maybe mystical/mysterious, but not magical. - https://imgur.com/a/O885CjC

And now to Speedball, i don't see the argument here, his kinetic field blocks only kinetic energy ie physical force (as Speedball said in that comic) or kinetic based blasts like Cyclops's beams or anything that has basis on kinetic energy ant that's it, doesn't mean it can block other forms of energy, be it electricity, light, gamma energy or etc... that's the point here, Juza could have used light, electricity or other forms of energy that are not kinetic energy it would have done the same trick. It's a bit faulty argument here, in fact even Iron Man's armor could bypass Speedball's kinetic field with his energy rays. - https://imgur.com/a/EpX6gQX

Using Speedball for argument is a bit stretch overall, his kinetic field is cool, but it has many flaws and limitations, as even science based characters have ignored his kinetic field, like characters who use cosmic rays (high energy electically charged particles) and cosmic radiation (photons), basically electromagnetic forms of energy in both cases, the characters in questions who used those energies were Evolutionaries and Eternals, even when they were using physical force (which Speedball thought would kill him, but frankly the dude was too arrogant and held back), his field couldn't block it. - https://imgur.com/a/424m5IU

If you want a character who has similar kinetic powers but without those limitations like Speedball, look no further than Sebastian Shaw from X-franchise, his kinetic based powers allow him to absorb pretty much any type of attack, be it magical (Hercules learned it the painful way with his magical weapons) or science based.

cdtm
Friend, the Hell on Earth mini had various mages/sorcerers agreeing his schtick is magic based, to gripe that this still doesn't mean he belongs in a room with practicing masters of the arts who study and practice the craft for a living.

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