ESB Vader vs AOTC Mace Windu

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TheIndyJedi
Rules: Vader as of Empire Strikes Back
Mace as of Attack of the Clones


Round 1: Sabers only
Round 2: Force only
Round 3: All out

victreebelvictr
1. mace windu
2. darth vader
3. darth vader

TheIndyJedi
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
1. mace windu
2. darth vader
3. darth vader

Agree

relentless1
nah Mace pulls a Jango and lops Vaders head off

Azronger
Vader one-shots

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Azronger
Vader one-shots i would never say one-shots, windu would put up a fight.

relentless1
ok, compare Mace Windu fighting in the Geonosian arena to Vader vs Luke in Bespin... no way that Frankenstein moving cyborg could even touch Mace Windu.... this is the major issue of comparing the fighters by their film appearances... the OT will always lose out based on choreography alone.

Trocity
Who is comparing them via how they look on film?

victreebelvictr
The movies make some characters look bad like poor grievous you know

relentless1
Originally posted by Trocity
Who is comparing them via how they look on film?

OP says Mace from ATOC and Vader from ESB which are films

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
OP says Mace from ATOC and Vader from ESB which are films


Its a reference to that point in time in Canon.

But Canon doesnt go out of the window unless the OP states - Movies ONLY.

Underachiever59
Honestly, Sam Jack in AotC wasn't doing all that impressively. All of Mace Windu's hype comes from out of the movies. His killing of Jango Fett is pretty slow and just makes Fett look unimpressive, and his duel against Sidious is slow-paced outside of a scene with a stunt actor and a scene with a CGI Sheev. Going purely on movies, Vader os way more impressive in terms of choreography.

Now, taking sources from outside of the movies into consideration, Windu is substantially more impressive. He's clearly got a speed edge on Vader, but it's hard to say who has a skill edge. We've got plenty of evidence of Vader tanking lightsaber strikes, so he gets a solid durability edge. Overall, I'd say as physical combatants, they're close to even. Vader has more wins under his belt right now, but Windu has beaten Sidious in a duel, so I'd say they're at least comparable.

Where this really becomes Vader's game is when we address Firce powers. Vader is the Chosen One. His potential in Canon doesn't appear hindered the way it was in Legends. Vader's pre-Empire showings of power have a magnitude to them that puts anything we've seen from Mace to shame.

So, in round 1, I can see it going either way. Round 2, Vader, no contest. Round 3, Vader for a solid majority, but not easily.

victreebelvictr

relentless1
can't use Windu vs Sidious as an example because Sidious threw the fight

And I dunno what choreography youre watching but his movement and skill in AOTC dwarfs slow ass Vader who can barely move.

Also Mace has plenty of Force feats that put him up there; like the time he scattered an entire battalion of droids surrounding him

Also using Force wave to such an extent that he outright destroys droids rather than just throwing them back

He manhandled a walker with ease on Ryloth

Not to mention Shatterpoint ability

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by relentless1
can't use Windu vs Sidious as an example because Sidious threw the fight

And I dunno what choreography youre watching but his movement and skill in AOTC dwarfs slow ass Vader who can barely move.

Also Mace has plenty of Force feats that put him up there; like the time he scattered an entire battalion of droids surrounding him

Also using Force wave to such an extent that he outright destroys droids rather than just throwing them back

He manhandled a walker with ease on Ryloth

Not to mention Shatterpoint ability made would win only due to shatterpoint,

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
can't use Windu vs Sidious as an example because Sidious threw the fight



Meh, regardless of what really happened there at the end, Lucas confirmed Mace can compete against Sidious.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Meh, regardless of what really happened there at the end, Lucas confirmed Mace can compete against Sidious. he threw the fight!

relentless1
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Meh, regardless of what really happened there at the end, Lucas confirmed Mace can compete against Sidious.

yeah but its not just the end, its the whole fight, its clear Sidious was stalling and playing with Mace the whole time

victreebelvictr
Yes, it is, waiting for Anakin to arrive. Palpatine had the high ground the whole time wink

relentless1
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yes, it is, waiting for Anakin to arrive. Palpatine had the high ground the whole time wink

thumb up

Darth Thor
Except Urm, Lucas confirmed he can compete regardless.

relentless1
yeah well the Browns can "compete" with the Patriots but it doesnt mean they're gonna win the Super Bowl lol

MythLord
I mean "compete" is a blanket term. Lucas never says how he can compete. It's entirely possible that Mace's competing with Sidious is due to Vaapad.

LordOfTheLight
I highly doubt that Lucas would even mention that Mace can compete with Sidious if he actually was amped highly. That clearly meant to show that Mace can legitimately compete with Sidious on his own merits. Not because of anything circumstantial.

Vaapad is part of Mace's skillset which he can use at any time and the power is all his own( confirmed by fact files). The superconducting loop is just a channelizing mechanism, not an amplifying one. It channels his emotions safely into battle without him falling into the dark side( which is the point of Vaapad in the first place) and I think this is the umpteenth time this point has come up.

Then there are the quotes that put Mace at Yoda's level. They are possibly the most numerous quotes indicating something in all of SW history, matched only by the number of quotes that declare Sidious's supremacy. Surely that has to count for something.

relentless1
Mace is sub Yoda in any reference about the two ive ever seen

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by relentless1
Mace is sub Yoda in any reference about the two ive ever seen He was the closest to Yoda at his time, but he would only have about a 30% chance of beating Yoda at best.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
yeah well the Browns can "compete" with the Patriots but it doesnt mean they're gonna win the Super Bowl lol


No compete means just that. That youre legit competition and can potentially win.


Originally posted by MythLord
I mean "compete" is a blanket term. Lucas never says how he can compete. It's entirely possible that Mace's competing with Sidious is due to Vaapad.


Assuming Lucas even knows what Vapaad is.

In any case what difference does it make if Mace uses/needs Vapaad to compete? Thats like saying Mace can only compete with a Lightsaber... Which also may be true, but so what? Given he has Vapaad and he had a Lightsaber.

relentless1
Thor its made very clear in the novelization that Mace could only compete on even ground with Sidious due to the one time circumstances of the supercounductiing Force loop or however Stover describes it and this does nothing to contradict what is seen in the film so it must be regarded as supplementary canon correct?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
Thor its made very clear in the novelization that Mace could only compete on even ground with Sidious due to the one time circumstances of the supercounductiing Force loop or however Stover describes it and this does nothing to contradict what is seen in the film so it must be regarded as supplementary canon correct?


Lucas direct commentary trumps our interpretation of the Stovers metaphors.

Im not even saying Mace > Sidious (some people do say that). Just that we have to get our heads out of the sand and face facts.

Facts being that at least the vast majority of their Saber fight was legitimate. And the fact that Mace is the only other combatant aside from Yoda (Anakin being a possible 3rd wild card), capable of legitimately beating Palpatine as of ROTS.

relentless1
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lucas direct commentary trumps our interpretation of the Stovers metaphors.

Im not even saying Mace > Sidious (some people do say that). Just that we have to get our heads out of the sand and face facts.

Facts being that at least the vast majority of their Saber fight was legitimate. And the fact that Mace is the only other combatant aside from Yoda (Anakin being a possible 3rd wild card), capable of legitimately beating Palpatine as of ROTS.

watch the film bro theres plenty of evidence that Sidious controlled that outcome in order to force Anakins choice

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
watch the film bro theres plenty of evidence that Sidious controlled that outcome in order to force Anakins choice


Also plenty of evidence that Mace... just.... won.

Backed by director and producers commentary.


But where is the commentary that states the whole fight was a ruse?

relentless1
yeah sure, if you call being found "helpless" to an angry Jedi Master at the EXACT moment that Anakin walks in a real loss then sure, Sidious lost lol

if I recall Lucas left it up to the fans interpretation; if anything in the ROTS commentary he specifically says that Palpatine was faking weakness

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
yeah sure, if you call being found "helpless" to an angry Jedi Master at the EXACT moment that Anakin walks in a real loss then sure, Sidious lost lol

if I recall Lucas left it up to the fans interpretation; if anything in the ROTS commentary he specifically says that Palpatine was faking weakness


He was actually disarmed Palpatine right before Anakin walked in. Sure there MAY be something to that. But Do you have any actual hard proof that wasnt just a coincidence?

Yes Lucas says that about the Lightning exchange, but im not sure why that matters when Mace had already won the Saber fight (which Lucas also confirms in the same commentary) and was already in a position to kill Palpatine.

Not that I ever even claimed Mace > Sidious.

relentless1
theres plenty of other evidence; Sidious would know about all of the Jedi and their abilities having been so close with them for the past 20+ years, he'd know Windu was the most dangerous, that he and Anakin had a strained relationship and that he was the most likely to try and outright kill him. Having said that why would he not blitz Windu first? He clearly couldve as we see Windu was just as off guard when Palpatine blitzed as the others.

Palpatine actually had Windu dead to rights in their first little skirmish with his lightsaber pointed right at his chest and he chose to allow Windu to defend against it instead of impaling him.

Now theres the mater of Anakin; hes clearly speaking to Anakin telepathically when hes sequestered in the council chambers telling him that if he dies knowledge of saving Padme dies with him. When Anakin shows up is the exact moment that Windu seemingly has Sidious beaten, this is where Palpatines intentions are fully shown; he pits Anakin against Wind and its a subtle recall to Anakins guilt for killing Dooku unarmed as Anakin says he should be put on trial which Windu initially agrees with until Sidious pushed the matter attacking Windu with lightning, only after this does Windu finally want to kill Palpatine which FORCE Anakin into a decision pitting the man who can save his wife vs the guy who doesnt trust him or like him very much and Palpatines plan comes to fruition.

McP
Depends of Lucas' interpretation of "compete". As I remeber, it was a question about B-team terrible showing, and Lucas answered, that it was because of Sidious power, and only Yoda and Mace can compete with him and that Anakin could become stronger then him.
In AotC Kenobi got stomped by Dooku, but after a short fight. Does it mean, that he could compete with Dooku at that point?

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by relentless1
theres plenty of other evidence; Sidious would know about all of the Jedi and their abilities having been so close with them for the past 20+ years, he'd know Windu was the most dangerous, that he and Anakin had a strained relationship and that he was the most likely to try and outright kill him. Having said that why would he not blitz Windu first? He clearly couldve as we see Windu was just as off guard when Palpatine blitzed as the others.

Palpatine actually had Windu dead to rights in their first little skirmish with his lightsaber pointed right at his chest and he chose to allow Windu to defend against it instead of impaling him.

Now theres the mater of Anakin; hes clearly speaking to Anakin telepathically when hes sequestered in the council chambers telling him that if he dies knowledge of saving Padme dies with him. When Anakin shows up is the exact moment that Windu seemingly has Sidious beaten, this is where Palpatines intentions are fully shown; he pits Anakin against Wind and its a subtle recall to Anakins guilt for killing Dooku unarmed as Anakin says he should be put on trial which Windu initially agrees with until Sidious pushed the matter attacking Windu with lightning, only after this does Windu finally want to kill Palpatine which FORCE Anakin into a decision pitting the man who can save his wife vs the guy who doesnt trust him or like him very much and Palpatines plan comes to fruition.

That was honestly a really beautiful post. I see that you may have re watched Revenge of the Sith just to post that! laughing out loud

Originally posted by McP
Depends of Lucas' interpretation of "compete". As I remeber, it was a question about B-team terrible showing, and Lucas answered, that it was because of Sidious power, and only Yoda and Mace can compete with him and that Anakin could become stronger then him.
In AotC Kenobi got stomped by Dooku, but after a short fight. Does it mean, that he could compete with Dooku at that point?

Yes, he could. Dooku sweepd him with ease, but here are some reasons on why that is:
1. It is a movie. How else are they going to eliminate Obi fast enough to show Ankain's potential.
2. Obi-Won gives Dooku plenty of good fights in Clone Wars, so they were just trying to throw him out and let Anakin shine.
3. Dooku probably caught him by surprise.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by relentless1
theres plenty of other evidence; Sidious would know about all of the Jedi and their abilities having been so close with them for the past 20+ years, he'd know Windu was the most dangerous, that he and Anakin had a strained relationship and that he was the most likely to try and outright kill him. Having said that why would he not blitz Windu first? He clearly couldve as we see Windu was just as off guard when Palpatine blitzed as the others.

Palpatine actually had Windu dead to rights in their first little skirmish with his lightsaber pointed right at his chest and he chose to allow Windu to defend against it instead of impaling him.

Now theres the mater of Anakin; hes clearly speaking to Anakin telepathically when hes sequestered in the council chambers telling him that if he dies knowledge of saving Padme dies with him. When Anakin shows up is the exact moment that Windu seemingly has Sidious beaten, this is where Palpatines intentions are fully shown; he pits Anakin against Wind and its a subtle recall to Anakins guilt for killing Dooku unarmed as Anakin says he should be put on trial which Windu initially agrees with until Sidious pushed the matter attacking Windu with lightning, only after this does Windu finally want to kill Palpatine which FORCE Anakin into a decision pitting the man who can save his wife vs the guy who doesnt trust him or like him very much and Palpatines plan comes to fruition.


I dont get how any of this speculation trumps Lucas confirmation that Mace vs Sidious is a legit fight. And that Mace outright overpowered Sidious in the Saber fight.


Originally posted by McP
Depends of Lucas' interpretation of "compete". As I remeber, it was a question about B-team terrible showing, and Lucas answered, that it was because of Sidious power, and only Yoda and Mace can compete with him and that Anakin could become stronger then him.
In AotC Kenobi got stomped by Dooku, but after a short fight. Does it mean, that he could compete with Dooku at that point?


Given he put him in the same category as Yoda, and given Anakins potential was also mentioned with that, it seems clear to me he was talking of those who are actual competition. I.e. have a legitimate shot at winning. Even if only for a small minority out of 10.

No AOTC Obi-Wan could not compete against Dooku. Because he had no shot of winning. He says that himself.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dont get how any of this speculation trumps Lucas confirmation that Mace vs Sidious is a legit fight. And that Mace outright overpowered Sidious in the Saber fight.





Given he put him in the same category as Yoda, and given Anakins potential was also mentioned with that, it seems clear to me he was talking of those who are actual competition. I.e. have a legitimate shot at winning. Even if only for a small minority out of 10.

No AOTC Obi-Wan could not compete against Dooku. Because he had no shot of winning. He says that himself. And yet Obi says he can take Palpatine and not Anakin! It was just a movie scheme, he could have put up more of a fight.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
And yet Obi says he can take Palpatine and not Anakin! It was just a movie scheme, he could have put up more of a fight.


Obi-Wan never said he can take Palpatine. He said LET ME face him (instead of facing my brother).

Then Yoda tells him straight thats a stupid and pointless challenge for him to take on.

End of you can quote all the dialogue and add all the speculation you like, but nothing changes the fact that Lucas himself has stated Mace can compete against Sidious. End of.

Doesnt make him =/> Sidious. But he is Capable of a win, and most certainly capable of putting u a decent fight.

Why deny/argue what came direct from the creators mouth? Twice no less.

DarthAnt66
Lucas also has Mace as a tier nine combatant, in league with Sidious.

xPRIMEx
Is this canon or legends?

Forschbewithu
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lucas also has Mace as a tier nine combatant, in league with Sidious.

Mace is an "8, bordering on 9" according to Gillard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA

Start at 14 mins.

relentless1
ok, so Mace can legit can compete with Sidious ill give you Lucas' statement but it doesnt mean he could beat him necessarily and doesnt change the fact that Sidious controlled how that fight ended up right from the beginning

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Obi-Wan never said he can take Palpatine. He said LET ME face him (instead of facing my brother).

Then Yoda tells him straight thats a stupid and pointless challenge for him to take on.

End of you can quote all the dialogue and add all the speculation you like, but nothing changes the fact that Lucas himself has stated Mace can compete against Sidious. End of.

Doesnt make him =/> Sidious. But he is Capable of a win, and most certainly capable of putting u a decent fight.

Why deny/argue what came direct from the creators mouth? Twice no less. Are you telling me that I do not think Windu has a chance. Of course Windu does, he was the strongest jedi of the council other than Yoda. If anyone else in the council(other than Yoda) Windu would have the highest chance. Not a big one, but a slightly larger than everyone else's chance.

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