KF Vader vs. RotS Sidious

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The Ellimist
20 meters starting distance

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

relentless1
Sidious still had the experience edge as well as a maxed out potential, Anakin puts up a good fight but falls to the Emperor in time

AncientPower
Vader.

DarthSkywalker0
The Furnace.

LordOfTheLight
Sidious in a mediocre fight assuming Skywalker puts on his best show here. While I obviously support Anakin hype let's be grounded here

Azronger
Vader bends the universe to his will and ragdolls the Son and the Daughter. smile

Lord Zed
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
The Furnace.

Gets extinguished.

DarthPlaguis12
Are you all high

StarWarsFan77
Sidious

The_Tempest
Sheev takes Force and all-out, but I'm willing to entertain a sabers argument for Vader.

TenebrousWay
Dunno, tbh. Sidious might win due to greater mastery of the Force.

The_Tempest
Have only dipped my toes into SW of late, but based on my recollection, Sheev has the feats and accolades to take this. From what evidence has been presented to me of KF!Vader, it all comes down to one or two quotes that splat themselves against the barrier of all Sheev's like a bug to a windshield.

Jaggarath
Anakin has more quotes than Sheev, lmao.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Anakin has more quotes than Sheev, lmao.

Does he? Present them.

Jaggarath
Show me yours and I'll explain why most don't apply to KFV, then I'll show mine.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Show me yours and I'll explain why most don't apply to KFV, then I'll show mine.

Scouring your respect thread, the only really germane one that I found was:

Jaggarath
As far as I'm aware, the only quote putting ROTS Sidious above KFV is:

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

And I doubt this quote is even canon, BTW. It's said by the guy who animates Yoda, not Chee, Hidalgo, Lucas, etc.

---

Anyway, if Anakin's more powerful than Yoda by the start of ROTS, then undergoes two significant increases in power, it's clear he's stronger than Sidious, IMO. thumb up

Jaggarath
-

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
As far as I'm aware, the only quote putting ROTS Sidious above KFV is:

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

And I doubt this quote is even canon, BTW. It's said by the guy who animates Yoda, not Chee, Hidalgo, Lucas, etc.

Not quite.



The quote from Wheless comes after that statement about Sheev. What about the others from ca. ROTS that call Sheev the most powerful Sith Lord?



This is unsubstantiated though. You'd need to prove that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda by the start of ROTS and you'd then need to address the contradiction between your interpretation and the evidence pertaining to Sheev.

Jaggarath
Fair enough.



The New Essential Chronology is written in-universe by a New Republic historian. What others say he's the best in history?



I figured you read through my unfinished blog.



I admit it's difficult to tell whether the quotes are referring to before ROTS or during ROTS, so I'll change my argument to the latter for now.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jacen Solo, and three out-of-universe sources agree that Anakin's the most powerful Jedi during ROTS. Anakin's powers further increased with Operation Knightfall, which Anakin notes in the ROTS film and novel. Note that the power increase seems significant too, given how Anakin yaps about his new powers. Also, per Hayden Christensen, "George wanted me to come to the scene with enthusiasm. Things are good. I'm the most powerful man in the universe and I'm going to be able to save Padme." So, if Anakin's already stronger than Yoda, then grew even further beyond Yoda, he should be stronger than Sidious.

That is, unless you want to argue there's a noticeable gap between Yoda and Sidious, which I know some people believe.



Anakin has more sources to support him as far as you've presented, so his evidence wins out against Sheev's.

ares834
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

Sheev wins. thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
The New Essential Chronology is written in-universe by a New Republic historian. What others say he's the best in history?











All courtesy of ShootingNova's respect thread.



Not all of it, no. I just skimmed for the stuff that compares Anakin to Sheev.



OK.



Honestly, I'm not particularly convinced by Kenobi or Solo's assessment. What are the three out of universe quotes?



Again, I'm not quite sure of the impact of this. I'm sure Anakin's powers increase throughout ROTS, but what evidence is there beyond implication that this gain is significant enough to tip him over the edge against Sheev?



I believe comparable quotes exist from actors, producers, and Lucas about Sheev.



There exists evidence that puts Sidious above Yoda, yes.



Many of your citations are in-universe and from actors, which aren't particularly compelling. I'll reserve judgment for the out of universe evidence. But as best I can tell, Sheev definitely has the advantage of quotes in terms of numbers and validity.

Jaggarath
I'll get back to this Thursday night. I'll pin it for now. Remind me on Hangouts if I forget. thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
I'll get back to this Thursday night. I'll pin it for now. Remind me on Hangouts if I forget. thumb up

thumb up

BestDebaterEver
Just poking at some of the sources people use to claim Sidious is the most powerful Sith in all of history. Temp rightly uses these in the context of a RotS-centric debate but in case anyone believes these are useful for all of history, here is my challenge:
I believe this is from some kind of box set? And it's only referring to the Sith at the time.

They were the most powerful at the time, but it's not for me to know if the author meant out of all of history with this statement. Also, it's a DK Young Readers novel - it's hard to assess the context without the book on-hand and the source itself is questionable.

Again, this could be specific to the time period, and this appears to be from a solicitation of the reprinted Legends Republic/Dark times comics in trade paperback form. It's hard to analyse the context because no screenshot of this quote has been produced.


Could just be referring to their own time.


This much is true.

However...

At face value both of these meet the criteria for all of history.

BestDebaterEver
Although The New Essential Chronology appears to be written from the perspective of an in-univrse historian by the name of Voren Na'al, which to my knowledge reduces the count of viable sources to one, unless there others that have not yet been posted.

AncientPower
The article itself is a strictly saga-only interview. I checked personally, the whole thing is about Yoda's animatronics and CGI on film.

NEC is obviously in-universe.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Just poking at some of the sources people use to claim Sidious is the most powerful Sith in all of history. Temp rightly uses these in the context of a RotS-centric debate

To clarify, at least for the purposes of this debate, this is the only context in which I'm using these quotes. My position is that during Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord and therefore more powerful than Knightfall!Vader, something supported most consistently by the relevant facts.



The chronology is an in-universe source and not one I'd use for this discussion or to cement the Emperor's reputation as the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

BestDebaterEver
thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Anakin has more sources to support him as far as you've presented, so his evidence wins out against Sheev's.

Oh? I thought there was some policy where even seemingly contradictory statements must be reconciled, the majority of sources be damned? Or is it just when the argument favors someone other than Sheev that these rules apply?

You're taking a page out of AP's book, son. Your posts in our CaV (especially the latest) have been overflowing with double standards, and it seems you're taking that approach elsewhere too. You've a history of being one of the few credible SWTOR debaters so I'd suggest not going out of your way to tarnish that reputation by employing the very tactics that have caused Nephtard, LeGenD and AP to become almost universally recognized as Trio de Retards, but that's just my two cents.

AncientPower
'Trio de retards' after you went crying and blocked me. Sure. Oh and, your army of imbeciles is hardly 'universal' opinion. When you or one of your troglodytes can actually go the whole nine yards and win, then you can start with your bs bravado.

Vitiate
Cry




:P

Darth Thor
Yall need to be careful about most powerful quotes.

Most powerful in what? The Force? Does anyone doubt Sidious is more powerful than Windu in the Force, yet lost to him in a duel.

And even saying in The Force does not narrow things down. The Force is not just TK and FL.


Anyway,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
20 meters starting distance

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out


1. Sidious
2. Anakin (maybe...)
3. Sidious (most likely)

Would place it similar to a Sidious vs Windu battle.


Originally posted by ares834
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

Sheev wins. thumb up


Try completing the quote.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Vitiate
Cry




:P

Speaking of the troglodytes.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Try completing the quote.

The quote is complete.

Lucas says that Anakin could've beaten Sidious had Obi-Wan not fvcked him over, which is true, but who knows how long after?

At the time, Anakin can't compete with Sheev.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest


At the time, Anakin can't compete with Sheev.


He didnt quite say that though...

Just saying its disingenuous Not to complete the quote, as Anakin was specifically pointed out as a possible exception to that rule.

Id say especially so post TCW Mortis arc.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He didnt quite say that though...

Just saying its disingenuous Not to complete the quote, as Anakin was specifically pointed out as a possible exception to that rule.

Id say especially so post TCW Mortis arc.

He did, tho. Unless Anakin is secretly Mace or Yoda, he can't compete with Sheev.

Er... post-Mortis Anakin, while powerful, is still struggling with Dooku. There's no way he can take Sheev, my son.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He did, tho. Unless Anakin is secretly Mace or Yoda, he can't compete with Sheev.

Er... post-Mortis Anakin, while powerful, is still struggling with Dooku. There's no way he can take Sheev, my son.


Again thats completely ignoring the second part of the quote. Did Lucas mean Anakin could have defeated Sidious right after his fight with Obi-Wan if he hadnt lost the former?

Probably not. But I just find that part of his quote to be too obscure to take it as word of God that Anakin cant compete.

And he struggled against Barriss once, thats not really here or there especially given how the ROTS novel describes his power up.

Ive already said Sidious most likely takes Peak ROTS Anakin. I just have an issue with people always purposefully excluding half that quote.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darth Thor


1. Sidious
2. Anakin (maybe...)
3. Sidious (most likely)

Would place it similar to a Sidious vs Windu battle.





Changing this to a Split in Sabers, and Sidious defo wins the all out bar some Mortis godlike moment for Anakin.

The Ellimist
Alright, so the main arguments for Sidious are:

- the "channeled by the most powerful sith lord in history" quote

- Yoda being the "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" shows Yoda > Anakin

- Lucas says one has to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious, implying that the second half of that quote refers to the future

- Yoda sends Obi Wan to kill Vader but not thinking he could defeat Palpatine

- Sidious says that Vader will become more powerful than him or Yoda

- "Powerful" even if used in a combative framework could mean "power that is applicable to combat" but still not "holistic combat ability", which would explain why Anakin doesn't actually seem to perform as well as Yoda against common opponents

- Sidious has way deeper force mastery, haxx, dun moch, etc.

Meanwhile, for Vader:

- Multiple quotes suggest Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of all time in a combative context, KF Vader is far more powerful, and multiple sources put Yoda and Sidious as equals (and it's not on par with the KF vs. Anakin gap anyway) so KF Vader >> Anakin > Yoda ~ Sidious

- Gillard says KF Vader is pushing tier 10 while Sidious is tier 9 as a duelist

- Anakin in the Invisible Hand could be argued to be weaker than KF Vader, yet he tools Dooku with far greater ease than we've seen Yoda do it

My takeaway is that, dun moch aside, KF Vader would probably defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but there's lots of reason to think that in an all-out fight Sidious is going to win via the Force.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Alright, so the main arguments for Sidious are:

- the "channeled by the most powerful sith lord in history" quote

- Yoda being the "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" shows Yoda > Anakin

- Lucas says one has to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious, implying that the second half of that quote refers to the future

- Yoda sends Obi Wan to kill Vader but not thinking he could defeat Palpatine

- Sidious says that Vader will become more powerful than him or Yoda

- "Powerful" even if used in a combative framework could mean "power that is applicable to combat" but still not "holistic combat ability", which would explain why Anakin doesn't actually seem to perform as well as Yoda against common opponents

- Sidious has way deeper force mastery, haxx, dun moch, etc.

Meanwhile, for Vader:

- Multiple quotes suggest Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of all time in a combative context, KF Vader is far more powerful, and multiple sources put Yoda and Sidious as equals (and it's not on par with the KF vs. Anakin gap anyway) so KF Vader >> Anakin > Yoda ~ Sidious

- Gillard says KF Vader is pushing tier 10 while Sidious is tier 9 as a duelist

- Anakin in the Invisible Hand could be argued to be weaker than KF Vader, yet he tools Dooku with far greater ease than we've seen Yoda do it

My takeaway is that, dun moch aside, KF Vader would probably defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but there's lots of reason to think that in an all-out fight Sidious is going to win via the Force.

^ More or less accurate.

Based on the conversation I had with Ant last night, it seems that Gillard contradicts himself and Lucas often. Right now, the weight of the evidence clearly favors Sheev as the more "powerful" of the two in as much as applicable power is concerned. Skywalker obviously has (and always has) the advantage in terms of raw power/midichlorian count/Force attunement/Force-sensitivity/Force aptitude/etc., but that's been the case since TPM.

I'm open to KFV potentially defeating Sheev sword-to-sword, but an all-out fight clearly favors the Emperor so far.

Jaggarath
Like I said, I'll respond Thursday. Maybe we can have like a mini CaV with it's own thread dedicated to it but far less formal than my one with Az.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
Like I said, I'll respond Thursday. Maybe we can have like a mini CaV with it's own thread dedicated to it but far less formal than my one with Az.

Yeah, I know. I was just responding to Elm.

This one's fine. You haven't yet made me privy to all the facts you claim to have, I've openly conceded two possible reconciliations (that KFV is time-sensitive and slips into the temporal gaps of Sheev's various accolades or that KFV can take Sheev as a duelist but not in the all out), and am open to persuasion.

I'm just not at all convinced by what I've seen currently. Gillard contradicts himself and Lucas; Anakin's accolades in question could easily refer to raw Force power and not mastery or applicable ability as we define it or could be specific to the environment (the Jedi temple); and there's no evidence that KFV has done anything Sheev couldn't duplicate.

Jaggarath
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This one's fine.
*shrugs* Would like the spectacle.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Jaggarath
*shrugs* Would like the spectacle.

It will be, I'm sure.

One Big Mob
So if we take the assumption that KF Vader surpassed Sheev in power, we then have Vader growing more powerful by Mustafar. Which indicates that Sheev took on an apprentice that was more powerful than him and was growing drastically.

Then we have Mechano Anakin surpassing Fleshakin in power. Which means Darth Vader after his suit should be much, much more powerful than ROTS Sheev. And then you go into Luke...

Something about that doesn't feel right.

And the importance of the Yoda quote is this:

Yoda seen what Anakin did in Knightfall through the surveillance, and still thought that Obi-Wan could potentially beat him. He thought he was way too weak against Sheev however.
Yoda judged directly from Knightfall evidence and footage to conclude that Obi-Wan stood a chance. He only knew of that power level Anakin was at, not of all the excuses people have to shit on Mustafar Vader.

Vader was most certainly going to surpass the Sheev, but we didn't get to see that yet.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by One Big Mob
So if we take the assumption that KF Vader surpassed Sheev in power, we then have Vader growing more powerful by Mustafar. Which indicates that Sheev took on an apprentice that was more powerful than him and was growing drastically.

Then we have Mechano Anakin surpassing Fleshakin in power. Which means Darth Vader after his suit should be much, much more powerful than ROTS Sheev. And then you go into Luke...

Something about that doesn't feel right.

And the importance of the Yoda quote is this:

Yoda seen what Anakin did in Knightfall through the surveillance, and still thought that Obi-Wan could potentially beat him. He thought he was way too weak against Sheev however.
Yoda judged directly from Knightfall evidence and footage to conclude that Obi-Wan stood a chance. He only knew of that power level Anakin was at, not of all the excuses people have to shit on Mustafar Vader.

Vader was most certainly going to surpass the Sheev, but we didn't get to see that yet.

Also a fair point.

Been scouring through the Gillard slog off and on for the last hour and he changes his rankings every other goddamn interview lmao.

gold slorg
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Also a fair point.

Been scouring through the Gillard slog off and on for the last hour and he changes his rankings every other goddamn interview lmao.

*through the Gillard slorg off

The_Tempest
no just no

gold slorg
y e s

Valkorion
lol imagine if sidious stalemated obi wan with tk and got his limbs chopped off and sheevites tried to say it was because he hadn't slept and was emotional

gold slorg
wouldn't work with Sidious or Yoda because we know they're seasoned masters

but in case of Anakin we know he's an oversensitive emokid that's also frequently emotionally borderline retarded, so i'm buying that

Valkorion
still, random sourcebooks might say anakin is 1337 but in all the actual events he goes around and struggles with Obi Wan tier foes while Sidious shows up and oneshots everything

One Big Mob
Not sleeping isn't great, but not pooping makes you feel so much worse. Especially when you have to do something physical.
If Anakin was also constipated I would buy him losing to someone like Plo Koon no question.

Just no sleep though? I don't know. Awful lot to fall from quite a ways above Sheev to Obi-Wan trisections.

Valpoorion
Vader could win sabers, but Sidious wins Force and all-out.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Valkorion
still, random sourcebooks might say anakin is 1337 but in all the actual events he goes around and struggles with Obi Wan tier foes while Sidious shows up and oneshots everything


I mean does he struggle with Obi-Wan tier foes, or just specifically Obi-Wan?

Because those are two different things.

And even that is at his worst.

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by Valpoorion
Vader could win sabers, but Sidious wins Force and all-out.

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