Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who is the better military mind, Force powers aside?

Since Revan's Force abilities would naturally be apart of his strategies, it's hard to separate the two.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Since Revan's Force abilities would naturally be apart of his strategies, it's hard to separate the two. What are you implying? I do not see how force power has much to do with battle tactics.

Force precognition. Force visions.

Good point, this would be a nice ability to have when preparing for a battle.

But if we were to only base this on precognition, that would make those of Palpatine or Millenial higher then Thrawn in tactics. I am talking about full on tactics, not abilities to boost your awareness. Now, pretend that Revan could not have force precognition, would be more skilled then Thrawn in tactics.

I'll wait for something new for Revan, because all I seem to ever get is the same old same old. Mandalorian Wars yadayada, Jedi Civil War yadayada, Mandos were big fans.

In fairness Wolf, Revan is appluaded by both sides for his strategies in the Shadow of Revan campaign.

All well and good but what else? What feats does he have apart from the usual? I mean does he scale from anyone who is also a tactician? What do they have going for them? I can only really recall like...3? That he can perhaps scale from.

Thrawn is likely the better tactician/strategist on average. The guy made even some of the best minds in the Empire(inc. Vader) look like droopy-eyed armless children.

Now if precog is allowed, then it would help level the field a bit, but much like Vader, it still wouldn't be quite enough for Revan to come out on top as a tactician. Just MO.

Weren't the Mandos beating the ****ing shit out of the Republic before Revan stepped in?

How is that not a valid enough feat? Then again he was humiliating the Republic AND the Jedi, if he hadn't been turned, he might've started a reign that lasted even longer then Palpatine's.

The only time Revan has seemed to have "failed" is when he's not in command of large forces, or he gets betrayed. I guess you could say he failed at The Foundry, but thats one small failure in a factory, as opposed to multiple campaigns he was always winning.

Even as a deranged, insane zombie, Revan was doing incredibly well against the combined forces of the Jedi and the Sith.

Seriously, every time Revan steps onto a battlefield, or plans out attacks with large forces, he absolutely wrecks.

He almost killed The Emperor on his own ****ing planet with only the aid of 2 other people on a Dark Side nexus (which only REALLY aided the most inferior of the bunch) while probably still drugged like crazy. He could have thought up a better plan, but he did pretty well as he was.

Revan wins, imo. He's a brilliant strategist.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Weren't the Mandos beating the ****ing shit out of the Republic before Revan stepped in?

Yeah, because Revan convinced them to join the war. They weren't fighting until he stepped in. It is not that they were fighting and losing, is that they weren't fighting until Revan changed the council's mind.

No, lmao. The Jedi weren't fighting, but the Republic were.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
No, lmao. The Jedi weren't fighting, but the Republic were. Me?

Yes.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Weren't the Mandos beating the ****ing shit out of the Republic before Revan stepped in?.
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Yeah, because Revan convinced them to join the war. They weren't fighting until he stepped in.
Originally posted by Jaggarath
No, lmao. The Jedi weren't fighting, but the Republic were.

Oh, i thought he meant the Jedi, the republic was failing miserably until the Jedi stepped in. I didn't see that you edited your response.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Me? He's saying to you, yes, that the Jedi weren't fighting, but the republic was.

Revan only brought the Jedi over, but the Republic was getting absolutely thrashed, hell it wasn't even the majority of the Jedi that joined him, just a small amount of them that agreed with him.

Revan did some major masterstrokes in that war too, it wasn't the Jedi being there that won that war, it was Revan and his tactical mind.

Without Revan I am fully convinced, even with the Jedi who joined Revan's help, they'd still have lost.

Thats a big deal whether anyone recognizes it or not.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Without Revan I am fully convinced, even with the Jedi who joined Revan's help, they'd still have lost.

That's stated by many sources.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
hell it wasn't even the majority of the Jedi that joined him, just a small amount of them that agreed with him.


You said some, not just Revan, he was a big part of it, but it wasn't just him that won it.

Remove Revan from the equation and they wouldn't have won, lol.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Remove Revan from the equation and they wouldn't have won, lol. Doesn't mean that it was all Revan.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
You said some, not just Revan, he was a big part of it, but it wasn't just him that won it. Without Revan, they would have lost, the Jedi he brought with him were not large enough to make that much of a difference.

Now, if the Republic and ALL of the Jedi had joined, minus Revan, yes, they would have won with their combined forces, having the Jedi would be a major game-changer.

But Revan not being there with only the Jedi he brought over? Nah, not changing a single thing.

I don't think Jman has stated that if you remove every soldier of the war besides Revan, that Revan could have personally defeated the Mandalorians, lmao.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
I don't think Jman has stated that if you remove every soldier of the war besides Revan, that Revan could have personally defeated the Mandalorians, lmao. Probably not, not at that age.

That's all well and good, but again it's nothing new. Thrawn basically has the same thing, he nearly destroyed the NR and was only killed by luck and basically being betrayed by his right hand...even then he had a contingency in place for a clone to take over but that was thwarted in the end.

So again....what else? Who does he scale from in terms of tactical ability? Do said people have any notoriety to their names in such fields? Do they have any feats?

Throwing a quote out that says he has a great tactical mind and what not is great. But is this the case of him being a big fish in a small pond? I mean you could seem like a geinus in a particular area if you're surrounded by those who only have average knowledge or somewhat great knowledge in said area.

That doesn't mean if you go to another group, that you'll outdo those who have an equaled or superior geinus to what you know.

I can really just name 3 perhaps that Revan could scale from and even then, these people just have some fair reputation to their names from what I recall...I'll have to see through my sources again though when I have time.

Thrawn meanwhile is a huge fish in a giant lake, as he scales from an impressive array of Imperial Admirals/Captains and so on, which they have their own accolades and feats to their names and even the baseline officer is nothing to dismiss.

That is an amazing point, great job.Originally posted by Zenwolf
That's all well and good, but again it's nothing new. Thrawn basically has the same thing, he nearly destroyed the NR and was only killed by luck and basically being betrayed by his right hand...even then he had a contingency in place for a clone to take over but that was thwarted in the end.

So again....what else? Who does he scale from in terms of tactical ability? Do said people have any notoriety to their names in such fields? Do they have any feats?

Throwing a quote out that says he has a great tactical mind and what not is great. But is this the case of him being a big fish in a small pond? I mean you could seem like a geinus in a particular area if you're surrounded by those who only have average knowledge or somewhat great knowledge in said area.

That doesn't mean if you go to another group, that you'll outdo those who have an equaled or superior geinus to what you know.

I can really just name 3 perhaps that Revan could scale from and even then, these people just have some fair reputation to their names from what I recall...I'll have to see through my sources again though when I have time.

Thrawn meanwhile is a huge fish in a giant lake, as he scales from an impressive array of Imperial Admirals/Captains and so on, which they have their own accolades and feats to their names and even the baseline officer is nothing to dismiss.

Yes, but it is important that we do not leave this ignored. That is what we do in KMC, right?

@Sel

Well that's how things work right? If a character doesn't have what is needed, then how do we even know they stack up to said character being compared? Also there was plenty of ample time to flesh out the Old Republic era and Revan himself, so I don't buy that argument either and that we should just put Revan on some kind of pedestal because....why?

Ok if we're gonna do that, then why don't we do it for other characters? I've seen some double standards, so why aren't we analyzing characters equally here?

I'm not saying Revan isn't impressive, it's just...it helps if there's some kind of gauge to work with here. But that said, I also agree that we can't really compare these two, Thrawn does have more in his favor however here. Plus the Empire did go through military history and theory, so it stands to reason that they learned from the past.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
That's stated by many sources.

*cough* With a little help from a certain General. *cough*

What are you talking about, he is TOR's greatest leader.

@Sel, I hate this quoting thing that doesn't work.

Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing.

I'm not saying he isn't one of the top tacticians/strategists, but it's kinda hard to prove where he exactly stands on any sort of list.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
What are you talking about, he is TOR's greatest leader.

... Which is what I said?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
@Sel, I hate this quoting thing that doesn't work.

Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing.

I'm not saying he isn't one of the top tacticians/strategists, but it's kinda hard to prove where he exactly stands on any sort of list.

That's on me I think, this site struggles with iPhone apostrophes. I agree that it matters that he's surrounded by strong tacticians, of course it does. There's only one other era with strategy as explored as the GE era and LOTF era, and that's the Clone Wars, and we've seen that during the Clone Wars the strongest tacticians and most infamous (Skywalker, Trench etc.) have not been the most well educated or experienced, merely the most ingenious.

I don't think you can 'scale' off other strategists at all, really. Not in the way that many try, which is why I've always struggled with this notion of ranking them. If you recall our older debates involving militaries I've been making this argument for years.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah? Well Thrawn were also surrounded by those who had ingenuity, so it's not like Thrawn was the only one, he was better however. I think it does matter than using nothing. Thrawn was so far above everyone around him that he considered others to be master tacticians if they could simply comprehend his plans/strategies after they were explained. This is because Thrawn was typically so many steps ahead of his peers that most of them still couldn't grasp the bigger picture, even when they were literally told what his plans were.

Whose boner is bigger?

Ant's erection for Revan
or
Kurk's hard-on for Raven

???

LMAO

Originally posted by Selenial
... Which is what I said?



That's on me I think, this site struggles with iPhone apostrophes. I agree that it matters that he's surrounded by strong tacticians, of course it does. There's only one other era with strategy as explored as the GE era and LOTF era, and that's the Clone Wars, and we've seen that during the Clone Wars the strongest tacticians and most infamous (Skywalker, Trench etc.) have not been the most well educated or experienced, merely the most ingenious.

I don't think you can 'scale' off other strategists at all, really. Not in the way that many try, which is why I've always struggled with this notion of ranking them. If you recall our older debates involving militaries I've been making this argument for years.

I wouldn't call Skywalker uneducated nor Trench since the latter apparently has lived a long ass time so I'd say he has experience and Skywalker did get formal education with the Jedi Order which does include battles and what makes the galaxy go round, all that noise.

Though Pre-TCW, Anakin seemed mostly with Obi-Wan. (Yes I'm not going with this everything that's big in TCW being both, only the one.) So I can't recall if he's done anything big for fleet engagements.

But that said, I think you can, that is if they're from the same era anyway it's easier, cross era not so much. That also said, I'm not sure why it's a big deal if a character isn't in the top so and so.

Still me thinks we just spinning our wheels at this point.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thrawn was so far above everyone around him that he considered others to be master tacticians if they could simply comprehend his plans/strategies after they were explained. This is because Thrawn was typically so many steps ahead of his peers that most of them still couldn't grasp the bigger picture, even when they were literally told what his plans were.

Right, hence why he's one of the best.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thrawn was so far above everyone around him that he considered others to be master tacticians if they could simply comprehend his plans/strategies after they were explained. This is because Thrawn was typically so many steps ahead of his peers that most of them still couldn't grasp the bigger picture, even when they were literally told what his plans were. What about admiral Trench, he was literally a 20 year old strategy legend.