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Battle in the Valley of the Dark Lords.

No this is not a spite thread.

If you take the Malak >>> Kun quote serious, then it's a godstomp.

I don't take the Malak>Kun quote serious at all.

There is no evidence, they just say it with no claim to back it up.

Well, the quote only applies to SF Malak.

That is what I meant.

Darth Revan as a former proxy actor of the Will of the Force, a true hero, has a greater will and vision for the galaxy than Tulak Hord. It is with no reservation I declare Revan the winner of this battle, for to be a hero, you must be able to be an even greater Sith than those Sith who can not become heroes!

True, and Revan could not even defeat Vitiate! He may be a proxy actor, a hero for the Force, but he is not the only one nor the greatest! In many ways he is a troubled, corrupted being as we all are, he is not pure, in an obvious way to a large extent the dark side has corroded him, and he believes he can shape the will of the Force to his own ends - like a Sith who believes the Force serves him! What a perversion this is!

But alas, Tulak Hord is a potent warrior but has exacted minimal influence over events of the galaxy, revered but hastily forgotten, buried under the sands of time! Revan shaped the galaxy! He conquered a Republic, beat back the Sith and defeated the Mandalorians! How can you say Tulak Hord is greater than this?! His will is insufficient for the purpose!

How many soldiers do you believe Revan can take down by himself?

How many do I believe he can take down? Revan has left thousands dead in his wake, wicked and elegant with his crimson-violet blade! And he needed no army at his back, unlike the cruel, vampiric vulture that is Tulak Hord!

Tulak Hord was said to have killed armies of tens of thousands using only the blade.

And then it would be remade that Revan killed hundreds of thousands! Why does it matter, when the fate of the galaxy is on the line!

By himself?

No, he had an army at the time.

Hord wins, too early for Revan.

Darth Revan takes this.

Revan, unless Hord is significantly stronger than the others buried in the VotDL.

Which he is.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Revan, unless Hord is significantly stronger than the others buried in the VotDL.

All indications are that he is. He's strongly implied to be second only to Ragnos and Nadd, prior to Kun and Tenebrae.

He is more powerful than Nadd as well.

Originally posted by AncientPower
All indications are that he is. He's strongly implied to be second only to Ragnos--

--so, in other words, he isn't? ermm

Are you saying that Ragnos is weak then?

Sadow was scared of him you know.

Hord is stated to be the greatest duelist of the VotDL Sith Lords, he's stated to be the greatest Jedi killer prior to Nadd, and he's got a depth of sorcery none of the others can compare to. Only Nadd, Ragnos, Kun and Tenebrae are his superiors.

Correction, only Ragnos and Tenebrae were his superiors.

Nadd is confirmed to have killed more Jedi and to have been a greater sorcerer. Ragnos is superior to Nadd. Kun is confirmed to be more powerful than Ragnos.

Nadd isn't confirmed to be a greater sorcerer. Nada goal was to become the greatest sith sorceror but nothing says he actually achieved that. Hord apparently discovered immortality or close to it, that puts him above Nadd.

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Aka he was the most powerful sith lord in history, till after him.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Aka he was the most powerful sith lord in history, till after him.

eh, that quote doesn't necessarily refer to dead sith

Eh Kreia also thinks Revan>all so idk.

No.

And why not Ant?

Kreia saying Hord's a better duelist than her and Meetra doesn't mean he's also better than Revan, who is also vastly greater than her and Meetra.

Kreia never says Hord is better than anyone of the era.

Kreia only says they (Kreia and Meetra) are children compared to the ancients in lightsaber combat.

We just covered that.

Oh, yes. I didn't saw Ant'sl last post.

Revan's likely killed more Sith than Hord's killed Jedi.

1. Even if that is true, it is does not matter how many a force users he has killed, it is how many he can kill.

2. Tulak has taken over hundreds of worlds and the Dromund system. Tulak probably got his fair share of kills.

3. Revan was alive at the time that force users were plentiful, the probability of fighting a Jedi or Sith in Revan’s time is much higher than in Hord’s.

Hord's only noteworthy dueling feat is killing a lot of Jedi. If you don't want to use that as a metric, then utterly nothing puts Hord above Revan, lmao.

Based on the arguments presented (or lackthereof), I think Tulak Hord stomps.

That seems to be your opinion without any substantiation, lmao.

Kreia's quote never elevates the ancient Sith beyond the best of her era, nor anyone of her era except her and Meetra.

At best, you can extrapolate there were more lightsaber virtuosos during the ancient Sith than present day.

It's funny how nearly every sentence of Ant has a "lmao".


lmao

He obviously enjoys laughing.

He has some extremely well thought out post, I don't see why he wouldn't be laughing.

Originally posted by Vitiate
It's funny how nearly every sentence of Ant has a "lmao".


lmao

I was literally about to post that before I read this, lmao

I think he got it from Jack, tbh

ngl i think darth revan wins this

Originally posted by The Ellimist
eh, that quote doesn't necessarily refer to dead sith

It so very clearly does, it's referring to the Dark Lords of the Sith in a collective manner.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Nadd isn't confirmed to be a greater sorcerer. Nada goal was to become the greatest sith sorceror but nothing says he actually achieved that. Hord apparently discovered immortality or close to it, that puts him above Nadd.

Except Nadd is stated to know that he'll become the greatest ever, and that all he needs is time. This is proceeded by him becoming far more powerful than Naga Sadow, after learning everything Sadow knew, and finally killing him. Then he spends a century becoming far more powerful and achieving the status of greatest sorcerer.

The ancient Sith basically have their own Banite scaling. Hord is undoubtedly the most impressive ancient Sith up until his time. Ragnos' era was stated to be the golden age of the Sith empire, something they'd achieved mainly through the power and strength of Ragnos. Then we have the fact that the Sith Spirit Council, a council of the greatest dark lords, was led by Ragnos himself.

Then we get Tenebrae; the Sheev of the era, born with supreme power and potential. Mastered by Ragnos himself. Who is soon surpassed by his apprentice, who goes on to become godlike.

What's most impressive, is that from the very beginning we have Muur; Ajunta Pall's Shadow Hand, being superior to 19BBY Vader and Darth Krayt, even in a spiritual form.

Put Hord above Pall, put Nadd above Hord, put Ragnos above Nadd and then put pre-Nathema Tenebrae above Ragnos. Oh, it's sweet.

It's called coming to conclusions based on evidence available. But then again, I wouldn't pretend to care too much about what you think.

I like the way you think about the Sith, but I have found that Tulak Hord had a mastery of Sith Magic.

This results in him defeating Nadd due to the fact that he understands Sith Magic just enough to withstand it.

He is a Sith if I might add, they were known to be very knowledgeable in the arts of Sith Magic.

Except again that was Nadds personal belief, nothing suggests he actually became the strongest Sith Sorceror and the newest fluff heavily suggests Hords sorcery>everyone else's barring Vitiate. So idk about all that.

I believe that Nadd is more powerful in Sorcery, but not by much.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Except again that was Nadds personal belief, nothing suggests he actually became the strongest Sith Sorceror and the newest fluff heavily suggests Hords sorcery>everyone else's barring Vitiate. So idk about all that.

Not it wasn't, the narrator is stating that he 'knows' he will. He knows a fact, is aware of it. It's not just opinion. Re-read the comics. Nadd having knowledge of all techniques presented in sourcebooks and of all knowledge hidden across the galaxy, puts him as easily the most learned Sith there is besides Tenebrae and Kun. In the entire Old Republic era.

Retype that, it is a tad confusing.

I see what's going on here.

We assume Nadd was the best ever Sith but we can't say he's above Ragnos since he can't be... but he has to be above Hord here because he has to be... trust me. Nadd is just right there with Ragnos... probably... weaker Sith than Nadd are above Vader and Krayt. Nadd knows everything.

So we twist some quotes around and wind up with Hord being crazily above all Jedi Kreia could possibly know in dueling. Don't forget Nadd is above Hord. So now that we established Hord is above Revan by proxy (Nadd is super tough), we ask ourselves what Nadd has to do with this?

Let me take a shot in the dark with this and guess that Exar Kun one shotted Nadd like a pussy and people below Nadd are above all of Kun's opposition. That was massively pre prime Exar too. Because of the ease of that and how close Nadd was to Ragnos (trust me), Kun scales way up there. It's Kun's thread now. Gotta ride that Nadd train to "secretly" hype up Kun. The more you convince people that Nadd is the new fad, the easier it is to push Kun harder.

Pretty damn sneaky. What does Nadd actually have to do with the thread though? Dunno, secret Kun wank

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It's Kun's thread now. Gotta ride that Nadd train to "secretly" hype up Kun. The more you convince people that Nadd is the new fad, the easier it is to push Kun harder.

Pretty damn sneaky. What does Nadd actually have to do with the thread though? Dunno, secret Kun wank

This is typically where all of AP's comments lead back to.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hord is stated to be the greatest duelist of the VotDL Sith Lords,

Mm, no, he was said to be the best if his time. The VotDL is the resting place of Sith Lords across many eras.



Don't think so.



How do you figure?



>Only like, half of the big-name ancient Sith, 3/4ths of whom are only nebulously superior to the rest, are better than Tulak Hord

Wow~

Originally posted by Trocity
This is typically where all of AP's comments lead back to. It's funny seeing it in the act though. Kun time is coming

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I see what's going on here.

We assume Nadd was the best ever Sith but we can't say he's above Ragnos since he can't be... but he has to be above Hord here because he has to be... trust me.

Evidence please.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It's funny seeing it in the act though. Kun time is coming

It's actually not. Kun stocks are at an all time low right now.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not it wasn't, the narrator is stating that he 'knows' he will. He knows a fact, is aware of it. It's not just opinion. Re-read the comics. Nadd having knowledge of all techniques presented in sourcebooks and of all knowledge hidden across the galaxy, puts him as easily the most learned Sith there is besides Tenebrae and Kun. In the entire Old Republic era.

Admittedly I haven't read the TOTJ sourcebook in some time, but I recall the narrator describing Nadds thoughts which included that statement. How he felt anger and fear from.not becoming a Jedi Knight and so on. Then mentioning how since Nadd believes he can no longer be the greatest Jedi Knight he instead will be the greatest with sorceror again telling us what Nadd was thinking.

Every thread involving the Ancients devolves into 'Exar Kun vs *Insert Powerful PT Character*'

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I see what's going on here.

We assume Nadd was the best ever Sith but we can't say he's above Ragnos since he can't be... but he has to be above Hord here because he has to be... trust me. Nadd is just right there with Ragnos... probably... weaker Sith than Nadd are above Vader and Krayt. Nadd knows everything.

So we twist some quotes around and wind up with Hord being crazily above all Jedi Kreia could possibly know in dueling. Don't forget Nadd is above Hord. So now that we established Hord is above Revan by proxy (Nadd is super tough), we ask ourselves what Nadd has to do with this?

Let me take a shot in the dark with this and guess that Exar Kun one shotted Nadd like a pussy and people below Nadd are above all of Kun's opposition. That was massively pre prime Exar too. Because of the ease of that and how close Nadd was to Ragnos (trust me), Kun scales way up there. It's Kun's thread now. Gotta ride that Nadd train to "secretly" hype up Kun. The more you convince people that Nadd is the new fad, the easier it is to push Kun harder.

Pretty damn sneaky. What does Nadd actually have to do with the thread though? Dunno, secret Kun wank

Given Kun's accolades already place him above Nadd and Ragnos, where'd you get this seizure you call a conclusion from?

I'm merely using what evidence we'll probably ever have on the matter and coming to this ranking. Compare Hord with Nadd, and Nadd is just more impressive. Compare Hord with Pall and that's even clearer.

I started getting into this as a reply to Merchant and Vic's replies to me. So please, put the overly used fentanyl down and breathe. Come on, in and out.

Hord beats Darth Revan, he starts losing once it's the novel incarnation.

You're confirming everything I said while being annoyed that I said it.

The issue isn't that Kun is merely above Nadd. The issue is that you want Nadd to be above everyone else by a sizable degree, so you can make the leap to people accepting Kun that much easier. Naturally you want everyone below Nadd to be above Revan so when it comes time for it, you can say Kun in a lower power level one shotted someone above people above Revan. Naturally you'll want to adjust that, while still assuming no matter how high Revan goes, he will still hover around Nadd level.

It's a pretty transparent fanboy tactic. You're practically foaming at the mouth here.

Also why are we under the assumption that Muur is stronger than Vader and Krayt on his own? He was using a body that was capable of fighting with both and it's not even clear if Muur amping Celeste was above either anyway since he never had an extended fight with both.

"My power is yours, your power is mine."

Do we just ignore the powerful body he used and pretend it still applies to other Sith Lords being above him? Any statements were only applicable to Muur when he was using his own body, not when he was using Celeste.

Not only that, but Krayt was near death at the time, and Vader was still very green in the suit, like 4-6 months after he got cut in half green iirc.

Muur was under the other Sith Lords on his own, not when he was in a body that was capable of fighting his influence for years and years. It's not even clear if he was below Ajunta by the time he died as well... "shadow hand", pretty sneaky again.

I agree mob, Krayt was extremely weakened from the Vuuzong Seeds at that point.

If the Battle were to happen 10 years before, I bet Muur would have had a harder time.

Either way though, Muur is capable of defeating Vader in any scenario.

1.You're straight up wrong. SOR Revan and Exar Kun are rough equals from my POV. Darth Revan and SOR Revan are astronomically different, though.

2.Muur himself is stated to weild powers that outshone Krayt and Cade. He's further stated to need someone much more powerful than Morne to be capable of releasing himself from the talisman. We also know that he must maintain some degree of power by himself in the talisman because when Morne is losing her duel with Krayt, Muur takes over and starts beating him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
.
2.Muur himself is stated to weild powers that outshone Krayt and Cade.

Evidence please.

Literally just read Muur's RT. It isn't hard.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.You're straight up wrong. SOR Revan and Exar Kun are rough equals from my POV. Darth Revan and SOR Revan are astronomically different, though.

2.Muur himself is stated to weild powers that outshone Krayt and Cade. He's further stated to need someone much more powerful than Morne to be capable of releasing himself from the talisman. We also know that he must maintain some degree of power by himself in the talisman because when Morne is losing her duel with Krayt, Muur takes over and starts beating him. That's quite the concession of only being equal to the most powerful Revan. Though it seems born of an inability to get one over on Ant as opposed to your own free thinking.
It still brings about a question to your scaling in both cases:
Kun >>>>> Freedon Nadd > Tulak Hord > Naga Sadow > Ajunta > Muur > Krayt > Vader

According to that, Kun should probably beat the shit out of even RoTJ Palpatine at least?

And:
Kun >>>>> Freedon Nadd > Tulak Hord > KOTOR Revan

That seems like a real toughy for Revan to reach in your opinion. I know he got more powerful, but can you explain how you think Revan managed to equal Kun?



Only because he's using Morne's body in addition to his own powers. Morne on her own without Muur's full power could contend with noob Vader and dying Krayt. It stands to reason that Muur using all his power with Morne's body would be as or more powerful.
That doesn't mean Muur's original body or Muur's full spirit power is greater than Krayt. The quote only applies to what Muur was, which was him using Morne's powers in addition to his own.

Which means you can't take this and retroactively apply it to prior Sith Lords. And if it was his entire original power, then he's adding it to a very potent Jedi. It'd be like Tulak Hord taking over Ventress and then we pretend Ventress' body had nothing to do with it.

"No, this was all Tulak's own power, sure it was."

It is simply not possible that Morne's power simply went away because she wasn't in control at the time.

SoR Revan>SoR Strike team>>>SoR Nox>Tulak hord >=Act 3 Nox

One Big Mob, you may think all of that. I couldn't possibly comment though.

Tulak Hord is famous for his misleading skills. Centuries later after a search from Surk, Kreia said Hord "was the greatest man named Sith Lords," claiming that his ability was considered "remarkable even in his own time, when many real-time owners had been living there." Kreia also revealed that if Surik was confronted with Sith Lord of the war in the war, he would learn that "we are children playing toys in comparison with the stability of ancient kings." Later, Kem Val revealed in North Nox that Hord had no execution of weapons made by the imperial Jedi Jedi at Yan and Chabosh. Over a thousand Jedians have died in these wars.

Hord was a terrible manager on the black side. He was very familiar with telekinesis issues; when Dr Nox approached the ruins of Endar Spire, Khem Val explained that "The great Tulak Hord had released the huge ship from the sky." Hord was also the head of a witchcraft.

Interesting points, but try to correct your spelling.

Auto correct is not your friend on this website!