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Asajj Ventress was capable of holding her own against Mace Windu and I am not sure if TPM Maul is capable of this.

Opinions?

Ventress takes it because she's more powerful imo, but Maul probably takes sabers.

Considering Maul is more powerful and that being more powerful usually leads to being better in sabers, Maul obviously wins.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ventress takes it because she's more powerful imo, but Maul probably takes sabers.

Originally posted by DarkTransfer69
Considering Maul is more powerful and that being more powerful usually leads to being better in sabers, Maul obviously wins.

I can't wait to see where this leads!

Damn, I just realized I misspelled the title.

Galan if you see this thread, I will appreciate it if you corrected the title.

Thx

Originally posted by DarkTransfer69
Considering Maul is more powerful and that being more powerful usually leads to being better in sabers, Maul obviously wins.
Alright, I'll bite. How is Maul more powerful?

Well, he was trained under Sidious directly, Ventress was trained by Dooku.

That says quite a bit imo.

Plus the fact that Sidious personally chose Maul.

Ventrss only ever looked impressive against the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace, because they were all always massively holding back.

No Jedi will hold back against Maul though.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Alright, I'll bite. How is Maul more powerful? Even the yet-to-fully-recover Maul that fought Kenobi and Ventress with Savage was better than her.

why is darktransfer suddenly posting normally

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Plus the fact that Sidious personally chose Maul.

Ventrss only ever looked impressive against the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace, because they were all always massively holding back.

No Jedi will hold back against Maul though. Thank you for the details!

Exactly. Maul was trained in the Sith tradition and Sidious himself was very proud of his training. As Dooku's part time apprentice however, Ventress would have been given only scraps of knowledge. The difference in the quality of their training is immense.

As far as inherent ability, here is no reason to think Ventress is more naturally talented or has more potential than Maul. In fact it's quite the opposite. His potential was enough to succeed Sidious, it was enough for Sidious to sacrifice his relationship with Talzin to get Maul, it was enough for him to risk drawing Plagueis' ire. Even Plagueis was amazed by young Maul's combat abilities.

It can even be argued that Maul is a prodigy second only to Anakin. Consider that he was barely in his 20s and was already clearly superior to Qui-Gon, one of the Jedi's most powerful masters.

The comparison to Dooku is even more favorable. Even as early as TPM Maul is comparable to Dooku in power, though somewhat weaker and less experienced. But he is still in Dooku's tier. But Dooku himself was considered an unparalleled prodigy by Yoda and everyone else, and he had 60 years of training on Maul.

Dooku's potential was maxed, at the time of TPM Maul was just getting started. How strong would he have been if he hadn't been cut in half and had another 20-30 years of training?

Exactly.

The best Ventress has done was defeat Luminara, and she Qui-Gon>Luminara.

Maul, decisively.

@Thor: Sources for the Jedi "always massively holding back" against Asajj?

@victre: How is being trained by Sidious really better than learning under Dooku? Before TPM, how much more did Sheev know about the dark side in comparison to the Count? Maul's training is always described as a sharpening of his physical and martial prowess, so it's not like he was being taught esoteric Sith techniques or anything that could take Ventress by surprise here. He can only really make use of basic TK and TP, lmao.

@Unbowed: I'm not sure what any of that has to do with anything. Maul learning 'Sith Tradition' is about as relevant as Asajj learning 'Nightsister Tradition' and the potential argument is questionable, as the TPM novel states that Maul is at his peak, never to become any better.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
@Thor: Sources for the Jedi "always massively holding back" against Asajj?


Really?

Lines from Obi-Wan like - You will have to do better than that My Darling.

Anakin we literally see the results when he stops holding back. He chokes her, electrocuted her, leaves her for dead multiple times.

Mace makes it clear from his dialogue shes no match for him and she runs away.

Plus you know Jedi morals in general. They of course tend not to hold back against actual Sith though with lines like - Destroy the Sith We Must!

Plus as DarkTransfer pointed out, she has actually fought Maul. A broken yet to recover Maul. And she could not even overpower him.

Plus there is their respective fights against Savage. Ventress is closer to Savage level. Maul is clearly above that. Closer to Obi-Wan or Dooku (though perhaps not their equal).

You pretend as if he hasn't done this Maul as well... So we can conclusively rank Ventress below TPM Maul because Kenobi let loose a sassy one-liner? Thanks for providing context too

You mean when Anakin taps into his rage? Of course he's going to pummel her, but with morals on Asajj has always proven to be (somewhat) a match for him. I think it's clear that TCW Anakin could take Maul too, so I'm not sure why this is significant.

You mean whilst Ventress is only just starting her 'career,' if you will. The significance of this is what? She can't defeat Mace Windu? That's a big revelation. Asajj doesn't need to defeat Windu in order to prove that she could take this version of Maul... Mace never indicated he was holding back either, not when he leapt at her with a big swing whilst angrily yelling "Away Assassin!"

The quote never indicates that Maul > Ventress though... The duo were outmatched sure, but the reasoning behind that is;
A) Ventress was fighting with one lightsaber.
B) Maul goaded Kenobi into anger, thus causing the latter to become 'unbalanced.'

Ventress was 'defeated' by Savage because of his massive strength advantage (something Maul doesn't have here, or at least it isn't anywhere near as large as Opress' was) and the inability to access her second weapon.

Again, nothing suggests Savage is above Ventress when she has both lightsabers.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ventress takes it because she's more powerful imo, but Maul probably takes sabers.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi

Well shit, that's compelling. I concede now.

Maul is a tier 8, Ventress is not

Oh I see, we're operating under the Gillard tiering system. Why even bother with debate if it's all been sorted out by another person, amirite? Gillard and Lucas are infallible, they are incapable of being wrong.

Also, Ventress wasn't in any of the movies... kek.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
@Unbowed: I'm not sure what any of that has to do with anything. Maul learning 'Sith Tradition' is about as relevant as Asajj learning 'Nightsister Tradition' and the potential argument is questionable, as the TPM novel states that Maul is at his peak, never to become any better.
It's relevant because because the Sith are the strongest Dark sider tradition around. You don't think the Banites acquired special knowledge and lore and techniques that random 'Dark Jedi' wouldn't have access to?

You don't think it's a testament to Maul that he survived Sidious' training since infancy, given the fact that Sidious would dispose of him the instant Maul showed signs of not being worthy?

I like Ventress as a character and she is quite strong, but she is simply Maul lite. Anything she can do Maul can do better. His training is better, he is inherently stronger, his anger and hate are greater.

When Sidious felt Ventress might be a threat, he simply ordered Dooku to get rid of her. When he felt Maul was a threat, he showed up to do the deed himself.

As for the TPM quote, it is patently contradicted by TCW. He did become stronger, very quickly, despite the fact that he lost half his body and had a decade lapse in training.

A lot of it got lost half-way down the line, but sure. It's not like Maul was stated to have known a fraction of that knowledge, let alone all of it. Assuming that Darth Maul was given access to everything that Plagueis had taught Sidious by TPM (nothing suggests as much), he hasn't been shown using any ability that would logically come with it. Please point me to an instance in which Maul used this wealth of information to perform a feat beyond Ventress. Knowledge =/ Power or overall superiority.


Sidious' training that consisted of testing his Apprentice's physical prowess, of course. I'm not sure how this relates back to Sith tradition/knowledge.


This is the typical "Look how unbiased I am, this must mean what I say is completely genuine" response. I don't care for your thoughts on the character. The rest is unsubstantiated.


Ventress hadn't taken control over a planet, and she didn't threaten Sidious' identity in the same way that Maul potentially could. This was also a personal matter for Palpatine, so of course he'd rather do it himself. But that was obviously TCW Maul, who is stated to be more powerful than his TPM version and therefore, this argument is irrelevant.



Yep, shame that this is TPM Maul vs Ventress though isn't it, so the quote still applies

Originally posted by RealistRacism
You pretend as if he hasn't done this Maul as well... So we can conclusively rank Ventress below TPM Maul because Kenobi let loose a sassy one-liner? Thanks for providing context too



That one liner pretty much sums up all of his interactions with her.

He has clearly always taken it easy on her.


Originally posted by RealistRacism


Again, nothing suggests Savage is above Ventress when she has both lightsabers.


What kind of nonesense is this?

Maul also used 1 Saber to stomp Opress.

Lets not get into shit tier debating now.



Originally posted by RealistRacism
Oh I see, we're operating under the Gillard tiering system. Why even bother with debate if it's all been sorted out by another person, amirite? Gillard and Lucas are infallible, they are incapable of being wrong.

Also, Ventress wasn't in any of the movies... kek.


Point is pretty every source suggests Maul > Ventress. Even as of TPM.

Oh so you were actually using that as evidence. Combatants exchange banter all the time, Ventress herself does this to Kenobi and Anakin on several occasions. Lets not get into shit tier debating now.


Maul was the one training him, so of course he could exploit any weakness in his Apprentice. This is also a false pretense; Assuming Asajj's mastery with a single-blade is on par with Maul's, which is demonstrably false. Maul has proven to be equally proficient with any configuration of weapon (a testament to his training) whereas Ventress obviously developed a dependence on the second blade, likely to compensate for her 'lack' of strength. This is evident in all of her fights where she's been disarmed.

Even so, what does this have to do with the topic again? Last time I checked, TPM Maul never faced Savage.


Those sources wouldn't have been created before Ventress' prime would they? Or rather, even before her first appearance? As a staunch defender of Maul, I expected better from you tbh.

I was mainly referring to the knowledge available to him at the time, but yes I do think Dooku is more powerful than TPM Palpatine and by proxy, Plagueis.

Sidious choked Dooku in TCW, a show that has Anakin being overpowered in bladelocks by Hondo, non-force sensitives having the ability to tank dozens of physical strikes from Anakin, pirates having the power to capture Dooku, passive force barriers are non-existent etc. I could go on forever really. The show is ridiculous, Sidious isn't powerful enough to do that to the Count outside of a children's cartoon.

Legends Dooku > TCW Sheev tbh

Do you have reasoning to believe that Sidious was weaker in TPM, or do you just rank him as comparison to TCW?

Weaker in comparison to his TCW version, yeah. It's only logical that he grew in power, I'm sure quotes exist.

I believe Legends Dooku is above TPM Sidious and S5 TCW Sidious...

I see where you're coming from though; Palpatine was progressing faster than Dooku, which I agree with.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Oh so you were actually using that as evidence. Combatants exchange banter all the time, Ventress herself does this to Kenobi and Anakin on several occasions. Lets not get into shit tier debating now.


Maul was the one training him, so of course he could exploit any weakness in his Apprentice. This is also a false pretense; Assuming Asajj's mastery with a single-blade is on par with Maul's, which is demonstrably false. Maul has proven to be equally proficient with any configuration of weapon (a testament to his training) whereas Ventress obviously developed a dependence on the second blade, likely to compensate for her 'lack' of strength. This is evident in all of her fights where she's been disarmed.

Even so, what does this have to do with the topic again? Last time I checked, TPM Maul never faced Savage.


Those sources wouldn't have been created before Ventress' prime would they? Or rather, even before her first appearance? As a staunch defender of Maul, I expected better from you tbh.



I see all you can do is make a plethora of excuses for the several pieces of evidence against Venress like - she couldnt fight properly with 1 Saber Lmao - but have yet to make any kind of case for Ventress.


Shit tier debating at its finest

Ventress.

Maul

Does Ventress have the High Ground?

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Oh I see, we're operating under the Gillard tiering system. Why even bother with debate if it's all been sorted out by another person, amirite? Gillard and Lucas are infallible, they are incapable of being wrong.

Also, Ventress wasn't in any of the movies... kek.

The point is Maul is atleast approaching Dooku's level( And this is backed up by a number of sources, not just Gilliard) Which means he is beyond Ventress. Besides if you were to do a feat by feat comparison, then you will notice that Maul is obviously better.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Ventress.

https://i.gifer.com/KZes.gif

^ Yeah how people can say Ventress in the post TCW era is beyond me.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
yes I do think Dooku is more powerful than TPM Palpatine and by proxy, Plagueis.



https://media.tenor.com/images/e5d2ef114361fa887c452c61bf690ccd/tenor.gif