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Vader vs Arcann, Vaylin, Revan, Outlander

Good Lord, Vader gets soloed by all of them. They godstomp him together.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Good Lord, Vader gets soloed by all of them. They godstomp him together.

lol

Even if one has Vader solidly above all of these guys, the numbers win this.

I have huge difficulty to see how vader can win this...

The only one that Vader can hope to defeat in this group is maybe Arcann, gets destroyed though.

In my personal opinion, even Arcann can wipe the floor with Vader, no question.

Sigh

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Team wins, obviously.

Just as much of a spite as the last thread.

RotJ Vader beats any of them himself but can't beat them all at once

Originally posted by The Ellimist
RotJ Vader beats any of them himself but can't beat them all at once Vaylin discenegrates Rotj Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
RotJ Vader beats any of them himself but can't beat them all at once

Originally posted by The Ellimist
RotJ Vader beats any of them himself but can't beat them all at once

The only one you can even reasonably argue he can best is Arcann, he's completely out of hiz league in a fight with any one else here though.

Face it. Vader is Malgus tier.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The only one you can even reasonably argue he can best is Arcann, he's completely out of hiz league in a fight with any one else here though.

Face it. Vader is Malgus tier.

That's lowballing, Vader steamrolls Malgus and he can literally beat anyone here solo, just can't take them together. A guy that's above ROTS Sidious is not losing to these chumps one on one.

He was never above ROTS Sidious. Strong drinking Assronger brand kool aid. Lucas himself confirmed he was never even close ROTS Sidious from Mustafar onwards.

But yes, Malgus has immense feats and accolades comparable to Vader even as of Decieved. He then gains a permanent boost to his connection to the dark side by the end of said novel, prior to spending twelve years of growing his mastery daily. In fact, Darth Sidious massively wanks his dark side power, he even goes so far as to state that Malgus like himself had discovered the true key to dark side power; willpower and focused rage.

The idea that Malgus isn't on, or even above, Vader's level is pretty disgusting lowballing to be perfectly honest.

Malgus discussion is obsolete right now, before his inevitable Outlander scaling. Not only he's going to be brought back in TOR in the new patch but will also be the main antagonist of the next (and probably last) expansion.

Malgus will inevitably surpass Revan - as it should have been.

Which doesn't disqualify him from already being > Vader, tbh.

Considering an exhausted and probably injured Malgus managed to survive the explosion of the space station, capable to desintegrate entire fleets, and somehow to also survive the hazards of outer space before his body was recovered - you might be correct.

Anyway, in terms of willpower, this is god tier.

I concur.

@Ap Az addressed this, Vader was always behind Sidious but only the current version, nothing suggests he was always behind every version of Sidious. He was 80% of the emperor after all.

No, Lucas states that from Mustafar onwards, he was no longer as strong as the Emperor and was more like Maul and Dooku. He isn't only speaking about the events of RotS either as he also references how this remains true through to RotJ, where he seeks to replace Vader with Luke as Luke has the potential where Vader lost it permanently on Mustafar.

Vader never touched RotS Sidious levels again.

@Ap That suggest ROTJ level Sidious is superior, not ROTS.

For the love of God, read and comprehend:



He's referring to the entirety of Vader's apprenticeship to Sheev. It's also far from the only quote on the matter, but it's a Lucas quote. Thus, the most important.

Originally posted by StarWarsFan77
@Ap That suggest ROTJ level Sidious is superior, not ROTS.

If RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious and Vader "is more like Maul or Dooku", then, obviously, he can't, in effective terms, be close to the Emperor in power - regardless of what "80% of Sidious" might mean.

Exactly how high does one need to be to actually think that Lucas was referring to actualized power and not potential in that quote when comparing Vader to Dooku and Maul?

LMAO. Why the **** would Lucas say Vader's potential power is now like the imaginary potential power of Maul or Dooku - a statement with no meaning because we have no knowledge on their potential power? Rather than, you know, saying Vader's no longer as powerful than the Emperor, and that instead his powers are like Maul and Dooku seen in the films.

That aside, it's also clear Lucas isn't alluding to any tremendous gap between ROTS and ROTJ Sidious either.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Exactly how high does one need to be to actually think that Lucas was referring to actualized power and not potential in that quote when comparing Vader to Dooku and Maul?



Lucas literally states, in words more clear than a flawless crystal, that Vader regressed in actual power after being cut off by Obi Wan.



The above, explanative sentence refers to the previous one, situating, in terms of power, where post Mustafar Vader is.



Again, another completely clear sentence. What he turned out to be ("like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." wasn't what he was supposed the become.



Finally, the only character ever mentioned in terms of potential is Luke.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
LMAO. Why the **** would Lucas say Vader's potential power is now like the imaginary potential power of Maul or Dooku - a statement with no meaning because we have no knowledge on their potential power? Rather than, you know, saying Vader's no longer as powerful than the Emperor, and that instead his powers are like Maul and Dooku seen in the films.

That aside, it's also clear Lucas isn't alluding to any tremendous gap between ROTS and ROTJ Sidious either.

At least try to make a coherent excuse lol

If he were talking about potential, it'd be odd for him to describe Anakin as "as strong as the Emperor." Not that it changes much either way.

Ayyyyy lmaoo. Will respond after classes.

In retrospect, interpreting the quote to mean actualized power instead of potential, even letting aside the rant, one would have to follow through with these conclusions:

19 BBY Vader is comparable in power or ability to Maul or Dooku

Vader doesn't grow vastly more powerful over the course of more than 2 decades despite starting out knowing literally nothing about the ways of the Sith and completely shunning the ways of the Jedi

Obi Wan is much more powerful than Maul or Dooku

All the quote itself says is that Anakin was in-line to be the Sidious+ level apprentice Sidious wanted all along, but after Obi-Wan gimped him there was no chance of that ever happening - he'd end up more Maul or Dooku level.

By demonstrated feats (Anakin raping Dooku versus Vader being raped by Luke) this appears to be the case.

Going by Ant's interpretation, he is already Dooku or Maul level by 19 BBY in that case lol

Lucas is talking about the finished product Vader had become, in reference to the (then) finished trilogies. He isn't making a chronological narration of Anakin's trajetory but merely a recollection of events from the perspective of the finished material.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Going by Ant's interpretation, he is already Dooku or Maul level by 19 BBY in that case lol That is if you insist Lucas was talking about fixed points in time.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
That is if you insist Lucas was talking about fixed points in time.

My entire argument hinges on the premise that he was not talking about any fixed points in time but a general progression lol

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Lucas is talking about the finished product Vader had become, in reference to the (then) finished trilogies. He isn't making a chronological narration of Anakin's trajetory but merely a recollection of events from the perspective of the finished material.

Dude, he clearly says that "from then on, Vader was not as strong as the emperor, he was like Dooku or Maul, he wasn't what he was supposed to become".

That is as clear as indication that Lucas was talking about a general passage of time as any you will ever get. Not sure how it can be clearer than that.

The quote speaks about many subjects, not just that Vader can't surpass the Emperor. For instance, Lucas talks about how Anakin had applicable powers on par with the Emperor.



"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" means that Vader again never reached the powers of the Emperor. It's not complex.



You can draw a conclusion that if Vader can't ever reach the Emperor's power, he either has inferior potential power or equal potential power (since he started off at a lower point), but the direct meaning of that specific sentence is explicit: Anakin used to have powers on par with the Emperor, but after Mustafar he's no longer Sidious-level and never again reached Sidious-level.



I think it's self-evident that Lucas is referring to Vader's powers as shown in his films and isn't invoking Legends anyway.

(But, if you demand it refers to 19 BBY, consider Palpatine says Vader has great power already within him and just needs to awake it - just that said power within is "like Dooku or Maul" level.)



"He wasn't as strong as the Emperor - he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" isn't the same as "He couldn't be as strong as the Emperor, like Darth Maul or Count Dooku," lmao.



So, to explain to the interviewer Vader's relative standing to the Emperor, Lucas referred to the unknown potential power of two far more unknown characters as a reference point, lmao? Rather than, you know, saying Vader has powers comparable with Maul and Dooku, and given we know Maul and Dooku's powers, such is an actually useful and relevant claim.

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

@LotL

Lucas merely estabilished a inflection point from where Vader stopped being as strong as the Emperor and was "more like Darth Maul and Count Dooku." His views, in particular, composed the finished product Vader turned out to be not what he was in 19 BBY.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The quote speaks about many subjects, not just that Vader can't surpass the Emperor. For instance, Lucas talks about how Anakin had applicable powers on par with the Emperor.



"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" means that Vader again never reached the powers of the Emperor. It's not complex.



You can draw a conclusion that if Vader can't ever reach the Emperor's power, he either has inferior potential power or equal potential power, but the direct meaning of that specific sentence is explicit: Anakin used to have powers on par with the Emperor, but after Mustafar he's no longer Sidious-level and never again reached Sidious-level.



I think it's self-evident that Lucas is referring to Vader's powers as shown in the films and isn't invoking Legends.

(But, if you demand it refers to 19 BBY, consider Palpatine says Vader has great power already within him and just needs to awake it - just that said power within is "like Dooku or Maul" level.)



"He wasn't as strong as the Emperor - he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" isn't the same as "He couldn't be as strong as the Emperor - he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku," lmao.



So, to explain to the interviewer Vader's relative standing to the Emperor, Lucas referred to the unknown potential power of two far more unknown characters as a reference point, lmao?

Rather than, you know, saying Vader has powers comparable to Maul and Dooku, which is an actually useful and relevant claim.

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

1. Not relevant to the main point.

2. So what? I literally stated the same thing

Vader can never surpass the Emperor

3. You basically said that "Vader would never become Sidious level"

So what lol? That is the exact same thing I said

4. Last time I checked, Revenge of the Sith was a legitimate movie

5. Yeah but

"From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" does mean that "he couldn't be as strong as the emperor, he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku". Let's not leave out key words here

You know, the whole rant about how Lucas was comparing the strengths of Vader and the emperor as a relative function of time, instead of blankly stating it for one specific time period, which, last I checked, with any common sense, is an allusion to potential, something which you have literally not addressed

6. Yeah, because at that time, it was evident that neither Maul nor Dooku would ever surpass Sidious lol.

7. You still haven't addressed the nonsensical conclusions, nor have you even begun to make something of an argument as to why the quote refers to power rather than the obvious conclusion being that it refers to potential other than some "Lol, Lucas obviously would want to clarify things to the interviewer in that particular way", while assuming that it wasn't obvious to people back then that both Maul and Dooku were just meant to be pawns and not true successors to Sidious

8. You reference Legends hilariously, but ignore that Vader has repeatedly stated to have grown vastly at multiple points in Legends, something which would obviously propel him much beyond Dooku or Maul level when you want to assert that 19 BBY Vader is comparable in ability to Dooku or Maul which is the conclusion you get when you take the quote to mean power instead of potential

Care to actually quote what on Earth you're actually talking about for each of those numbers, lmao? I wrote a response then deleted it because half the time I'm just asking what you're even responding to. I can't rebut and/or agree with you when your rebuttals don't make any sense.

In the meanwhile, this one I picked up clearly:



Which would be Vader unlocking that Maul / Dooku power within, lmao. It's not hard to follow.

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Just attach specific quotes to each part you're responding to, then we can continue it.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
@LotL

Lucas merely estabilished a inflection point from where Vader stopped being as strong as the Emperor and was "more like Darth Maul and Count Dooku." His views, in particular, composed the finished product Vader turned out to be not what he was in 19 BBY.

The entire point is about the part of the quote where it refers to Dooku and Maul and since you have clearly agreed that that points to the inflection point which was in reality 19 BBY, there needs to be no further discussion here.

Now we can twist and turn and argue and debate on this but you clearly agree that this was the gist of it

"19 BBY onwards Vader was not as strong as the Emperor he was like Count Dooku or Darth Maul"

Which was the exact meaning. No need to bring Vader's unrealized potential or any other part of the quote into this. To now argue that Lucas was referring to ROTJ Vader when comparing him to Maul or Dooku when he clearly explicitly alludes to 19 BBY Vader being comparable to Maul or Dooku is just justifying it with mental gymnastics

To clarify, type and around whatever text you're responding to, minus the spaces.

There's a fifteen minute timer to edit posts. If you miss that, then just post it again with the appropriate quoting.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Care to actually quote what on Earth you're actually talking about for each of those numbers, lmao? I wrote a response then deleted it because half the time I'm just asking what you're even responding to. I can't rebut and/or agree with you when your rebuttals don't make any sense.

In the meanwhile, this one I picked up clearly:



Which would be Vader unlocking that Maul / Dooku power within, lmao. It's not hard to follow.

---

Just attach specific quotes to each part you're responding to, then we can continue it.

The formatting is garbage here. It is just much easier to point mark each statement and then continue.

Take each point to mean each statement in your response. I added more points in the end just to elaborate

Then just put numbers next to my post so I see what corresponds with what, since there's a lot more numbers then I have lines, lmao.

When you do that, I can get back to you after Accounting.

Instead of wasting time here, since I am multitasking on doing projects as well for college, just put points on each paragraph of your counter that correspond to mine

Can't edit. Will get back to this later

@LotL

You'd be correct if not for this sentence:



This clearly shows he's talking about the finished product Vader actually turned out to be - and it wasn't what he was supposed to become. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to affirm this if Vader's trajectory hadn't ended. Then, he says Luke could still become what Vader failed to be, in terms of power. It'd make no sense that Luke's potential "could become that".

Great point.

—

LOTL: The issue is all your points are vague, short, and repetitive, so I cant respond if I don’t know what your points are specifically referring to.

Also, let's not forget that the main subject of the quote is Vader trying to turn Luke to the dark side:



The comparison between Vader, Sidious, Maul, Dooku and eventually Luke are just an explanation and elaboration on why Vader wanted to turn Luke to the dark side.

So, in addition to the last sentence I provided in my previous post, it's clear Lucas is referring to the finished character and not a iteration of it that didn't even know he had a son.

Dude, I don't have a lot of time right now due to heavy college commitments. I'll get to it when I can

Vader obviously isn't better than Emperor or peak Revenge of the Sith Anakin but he is still better than Maul and Dooku even if he is on their tier.
And it is more evident in canon.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Good Lord, Vader gets soloed by all of them. They godstomp him together.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Care to actually quote what on Earth you're actually talking about for each of those numbers, lmao? I wrote a response then deleted it because half the time I'm just asking what you're even responding to. I can't rebut and/or agree with you when your rebuttals don't make any sense.

In the meanwhile, this one I picked up clearly:



Which would be Vader unlocking that Maul / Dooku power within, lmao. It's not hard to follow.

Vader when he just got his suit was already stomping jedi im the purge comic. He definitely surpassed both Dooku and Maul not long after.


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Just attach specific quotes to each part you're responding to, then we can continue it.

Vader blitzes Vaylin and Outlander, ragdolls Arcann, and stomps Revan.

Originally posted by Azwronger
Vader blitzes Vaylin and Outlander, ragdolls Arcann, and stomps Revan.

I like you

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Vader obviously isn't better than Emperor or peak Revenge of the Sith Anakin but he is still better than Maul and Dooku even if he is on their tier.
And it is more evident in canon.


I think when the quote says he is like Maul or Dooku, he is basically saying that like them he is an apprentice of Sidious whose powers never grew to be on par with Sidious.

Doesnt mean his powers can not be above Mauls or Dookus at their peak.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think when the quote says he is like Maul or Dooku, he is basically saying that like them he is an apprentice of Sidious whose powers never grew to be on par with Sidious.

Doesnt mean his powers can not be above Mauls or Dookus at their peak.
Yep

In others, he still gets stomped so hard he starts talking about sand.

The A Team play football with Darth Vader's remains.

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Arcann can handle Darth Vader on his own.

Team A

Originally posted by The Ellimist
RotJ Vader beats any of them himself but can't beat them all at once

^^^

Darth Vader is strong but he is not that strong.

Revan's DE Sidious scaling results in Vader getting pulverised.

Ben Kenobi is also more powerful than DE Sids and we know how it ended for him when he fought Vader.

Nah, he let Vader win out of pity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Darth Vader is strong but he is not that strong. I can respect that opinion. I don't personally believe it, but I can respect it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The A Team play football with Darth Vader's remains.

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Arcann can handle Darth Vader on his own.

Arcann isn't beating Vader. Dude ragdolled Starkiller and was superior to his pre suit self, a ROTS level force user and duellist and this is all while pre prime.

Are you trolling or do you enjoy looking stupid?

changchongwally we meet again

Bart, how's things.

hitler's ideas are gaining support in europe, vongs are gaining support on kmc, life is wonderful

Yeah, primarily supported by guys the SS would've exterminated by now.

We have to be pragmatic AP, just get on board the Hitler train already. Then we get to throw Wolf in a camp

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Are you trolling or do you enjoy looking stupid?

Coming from the guy who's a glorified joke on KMC/CV who nobody likes.

Originally posted by gold slorg
hitler's ideas are gaining support in europe, vongs are gaining support on kmc, life is wonderful



As a German, I approve

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Coming from the guy who's a glorified joke on KMC/CV who nobody likes.
Not just a joke, but a glorified joke? Really owning the libs with that one. I don't know what you're even doing here, if you were getting trashed on CV, KMC is going to be 100 times worse.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Not just a joke, but a glorified joke? Really owning the libs with that one. I don't know what you're even doing here, if you were getting trashed on CV, KMC is going to be 100 times worse.

When did I get trashed on CV besides in my early debates where I was essentially a noob. Not to mention I haven't even participated in a single debate of actual seriousness where I could be bothered to actually try. Give me something Caedus related and I will work hard to make a case, but Vader, nah, it's too ease to do that.

Yeah we wouldn't want you to go all out, Vitidiots would get destroyed.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Yeah we wouldn't want you to go all out, Vitidiots would get destroyed.

I have zero interest in debating against Vitiate as a character though... he's been thoroughly dismantled at this point. Revan could be interesting though. I've literally not engaged seriously on KMC LMFAO, I probably should though, as long as it's repping Caedus I'm good.

"Thoroughly dismantled"



I'm sure that's why the Sheevites have completely backtracked to grasping at Force storm straws for the last few months.

Didn't help him when he got buttfvcked by spirits on Korriban. Vitiate one-shots Sheev with TP

Originally posted by AncientPower
"Thoroughly dismantled"



I'm sure that's why the Sheevites have completely backtracked to grasping at Force storm straws for the last few months. Originally posted by RealistRacism
Didn't help him when he got buttfvcked by spirits on Korriban. Vitiate one-shots Sheev with TP

Come on, even if you want to say he's impressive, at least admit half of his feats are a circumstancial mess relying on a nexus or prep. Even you can't deny that. And even Windu is ranked above Valk at this point so I wouldn't waste time feeling cocky about his position.

"But Nexus" isn't an excuse anymore. A lot of the time the Nexuses are there because of the individual's power, and Sidious benefitting from an imbalance in the force in favour of the dark side certainly helps him out a lot.

Tenebrae is literally the most powerful dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. The nexus argument is a shit lowball attempt by Sheevites to avoid actual feat comparisons because they know they'd get eviscerated. Ell doesn't even try to use it anymore, I wonder why.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
And even Windu is ranked above Valk at this point
By who, lmao?

In all seriousness, the only guy getting dismantled recently is Sheev.

- The power of his Force storms was debunked by ILS.
- He needed Byss to dominate Luke, who's only above Yoda.
- Then he gets wrecked once Leia unlocks some of Luke's potential.
- Krayt has a better dark side imbalance feat than him.
- Shrouding the vision of the Jedi Order is something Malak did.
- Escaping the Void through sheer will is something Revan did.
- Projecting power across the galaxy is a casual Dread Master feat.
- Ant is putting Vader in his pitiful place.

Honestly, pretty dark days for Sheevites.

Ant absolutely eviscerating Az was one of the all time great happenings.