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Who wins?

I was thinking, manga Goku's durability doesn't seem any higher. He's just really good at dodging.

Originally posted by One Big Mob

Lets see...

Jiren treated Hit like an inept feeb without even powering up. MUI Goku contended with, and beat, a full power Jiren.

This is a ridiculous mismatch, tbh.

Meant to say, Hit can use killing techs.

Then Hit totally wins......

Didn't regular ol' SSB Goku already beat a Hit who had been hired to kill him(and was therefore using his killing techniques) during their rematch..?

Meh it was refered that he was fighting as a martial artist and not an assassin in round 2 hence he loved fighting Goku....

Still end of Top Goku would demolish Hit without MUI..

That's right.

Yeah, it was made clear during the ToP that Hit's temporal shenanigans were next to worthless against a Jiren who hadn't even began powering up yet. Giving Hit the ability to kill wouldn't change that.

MUI is overkill by many, many, many orders of magnitude.

I hope Hit returns in Super though dont want him to become fodder...

He was easily the coolest opponent Goku fought so far...

For me Hit was by far the most interesting character(with the most interesting set of abilities) to come out of DBS. Really do hope he stays relevant.

Like Jiren said, relying on openings is not true strength. I think MUI Goku is much weaker then Jiren. Less strength, less durability, less power. They only look comparable, because Goku is cheating with a technique that auto dodges for him, and allows perfect counters.

If Hit freeze's Goku and lands a clean hit, it will have the same effect if it was Goku without MUI. Odds are, Goku isn't even as strong as in blue form, and is closer to base power levels, which Roshi established you don't need much of if you have technique.

Basically, Ultra Instinct is the apex of skill vs power. It's Toriyama phasing out power levels, in favor of skill.

Wow....

Originally posted by cdtm
Like Jiren said, relying on openings is not true strength. Jiren just said that because he was butthurt that Goku was the superior fighter, lol. If you leave yourself open, you get hit. That's how fighting works.

Anyway, MUI Goku's strikes/blasts took a HUGE toll on Jiren. So clearly MUI boosted Goku's power astronomically in the manga, just like it did in the anime. If Goku's power wouldn't have increased in proportion with his skill, his attacks wouldn't have done a damn thing to a powered-up Jiren.

Originally posted by cdtm
If Hit freeze's Goku and lands a clean hit Hit couldn't freeze Jiren before he had even began powering up, yet you think he can freeze MUI Goku?

Good god.

Originally posted by Galan007
Jiren just said that because he was butthurt that Goku was the superior fighter, lol. If you leave yourself open, you get hit. That's how fighting works.



If it was only Jiren who said that, but Belmond reinforced his comment by cooly calling it a "trick".

We know even the most powerful characters are vulnerable if they're caught off guard. UI probably catch's them just at the moment their guard is down, making the user look far more powerful then they actually are.

Originally posted by cdtm
If it was only Jiren who said that, but Belmond reinforced his comment by cooly calling it a "trick". And this means what, exactly? Belmond is Jiren's biggest fangirl... Of course he's not going to acknowledge the impressiveness of MUI like many of the other Gods did.

Are you trying to act like MUI doesn't also amp Goku's power tremendously? Do you also remember how he dissipated Jiren's energy ball in the anime?

Originally posted by cdtm
We know even the most powerful characters are vulnerable if they're caught off guard. UI probably catch's them just at the moment their guard is down, making the user look far more powerful then they actually are. That isn't how this works.

MUI Goku was tagging Jiren because he was the superior fighter, and his blows were powerful enough to cause major damage to Jiren. If Goku's power would have been significantly inferior to Jiren's(as you're suggesting), Jiren could have just sat in one spot and allowed Goku to melee his face, without sustaining any damage.

Like he did Roshi?

Or like Kale did the inferior to Blue (Considering Toppo is their strongest member, and wasn't in on that attack) Pride Troopers?

No, more like ASSB Vegeta did to a (non-powered up) Jiren in the previous chapter: landed a few solid blows that barely even managed to scratch Jiren, because Vegeta simply wasn't powerful enough to damage him.

Punches aren't going to do shit unless they're powerful enough to cause damage. MUI is a gargantuan amp in both skill AND power -- that's why Goku's strikes f*cked Jiren up, when nothing beforehand had been able to damage him at all.


And then of course there's this:

https://i.imgur.com/RZ79qdR.gif


Surely you don't think SSB or even Omen UI would've given Goku enough of a power-boost to casually gesture away Jiren's energy ball like that..?

Again, Kale went from shrugging off Golden Freeza and Goku Blue, to being knocked around by a group of relatively weaker Pride Troopers, 'cause teamwork.

If Kales that powerful, she should have tanked their attacks, the same way Toppo stood firm against Vegeta's best punch's.

MUI Goku was literally blocking Jiren's attacks though. You think him raising his hand "in time" is going to cover a massive power difference?

It does for Daredevil and Shang Chi against Spider-Man.

He can press 15 tons, and they still counter his attacks.

Originally posted by cdtm
Again, Kale went from shrugging off Golden Freeza and Goku Blue, to being knocked around by a group of relatively weaker Pride Troopers, 'cause teamwork.

If Kales that powerful, she should have tanked their attacks, the same way Toppo stood firm against Vegeta's best punch's. That's partly because Kale was already "losing power and nearly at her limit" by the time the Pride Troopers engaged her:
https://i.imgur.com/byTEWEd.jpg


As I said, if Goku were truly weaker than Jiren, it would be more akin to when ASSB Vegeta attacked him: Vegeta delivered several solid blows on Jiren, but in the end he only succeeded in giving Jiren a superficial scratch on his cheek, because he just wasn't powerful enough to cause any real damage at all:
https://i.imgur.com/WDUIRgi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dmonXFW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4ma3EPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6PdNYTH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HC1QtKH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HosVpIr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bhx4sIY.jpg

If MUI Goku were actually weaker than Jiren(like you're saying), his strikes and whatnot would've had roughly the same effect as Vegeta's... But again, Goku's punches were f*cking wrecking Jiren.

Moreover, Goku was also blocking/parrying every single strike from an enraged, powered-up Jiren. If he were weaker, this wouldn't have been possible either.

These's still Roshi with the dodging. Holding back, sure, but he still wrecked Super-Kaio Ken Blue prior.

We've been over this before.

If Jiren would have struck Roshi with the same caliber of punches he was using to pwn SSB Goku, he would have f*cking vaporized the old man. And since killing is strictly forbidden in the ToP, this may have resulted in the instant erasure of U11. Therefore, Jiren was obviously holding back immensely against Roshi(to say the least), as to not inadvertently kill him and violate the rules.

But what does faux-UI Roshi dodging a few of Jiren's massively suppressed strikes have to do with anything, anyway?

Originally posted by cdtm
It does for Daredevil and Shang Chi against Spider-Man.

He can press 15 tons, and they still counter his attacks. Spider-Man is a huge pussy though and no street leveler needs surprise attacks to hurt him or even take his blows.

Now, who in Dragonball has parried and blocked attacks from ever landing clean, without being comparable in raw power? Not just one attack either, a barrage of attacks?

Spidey holds back against literally everyone, even his Rogue's Gallery. It's a Superman level mental block as shown by Superior Spider-Man(Doc Ock) very easily punching the strongest version of Scorpion (who had extra armor and fell 7 miles with a smile on his face) hard enough to knock his jaw off. He immediately theorized Spidey holds back a vast majority of his strength so he doesn't hurt or kill anyone.

And no street leveler should even be able to bloody his lip with as much damage as he takes from guys like Rhino and Sandman and Mr. Negative

Originally posted by KingD19
Spidey holds back against literally everyone, even his Rogue's Gallery. It's a Superman level mental block as shown by Superior Spider-Man(Doc Ock) very easily punching the strongest version of Scorpion (who had extra armor and fell 7 miles with a smile on his face) hard enough to knock his jaw off. He immediately theorized Spidey holds back a vast majority of his strength so he doesn't hurt or kill anyone.

And no street leveler should even be able to bloody his lip with as much damage as he takes from guys like Rhino and Sandman and Mr. Negative Then that defeats his point even more. And it's not like these other characters don't have similar feats of hurting people beyond Spider-Man in strength. You bring up Rhino when we're supposed to just ignore him getting knocked out by these so called "weak" street levelers, among other characters.

Playing the PIS game on that part also deletes large amounts of feats for Spider-Man and these characters. You get to a point where 3/4 of their history doesn't count because they're technically human.

By feats these characters aren't as far away in striking abilities as cd pretends, and these characters can take his shots and effect him. That is not the case in what cd is trying to portray however. If Blanco Goku was weaker than Blue, then the blocking with no effect and parrying would make no sense.


Anyway, it says a lot when a red herring like that is attacked by use of the old "pis" argument when Dragonball is supposed to be the one that's inconsistent.

Shang Chi, for example, can shatter steel doors and giant stone statues. Wilson Fisk lifted up entire scaffoldings, with Spidey on it, and pulled the rug up on a carpet filled with solid oak furniture.

I like seeing CDTM get owned and lol at him using comics as an indication of what would happen in a Manga.

Galan and OBD, how does it feel to have Carver cheering you on?

If he agrees me on something, I assume I may be wrong.

Originally posted by cdtm
Shang Chi, for example, can shatter steel doors and giant stone statues. Wilson Fisk lifted up entire scaffoldings, with Spidey on it, and pulled the rug up on a carpet filled with solid oak furniture.

Shang Chi...the man who can control Chi and has Chi in his name can use the legendary power of Chi to shatter steel doors and giant stone statues? You don't say.

And as for Fisk, he has been strong enough to scrap with Spidey for his entire career, despite being only considered a "street level human". But he's a "street level human" how Cap is a " street level human". He's not.

If you're going to use examples, use better ones. Because Shang for example has done stuff like block a hit from Hiroim, which would have been impossible without using his chi. Don't act like he did all of his feats through pure strength like a brick.

Chi use is a modern thing. 1970's/80's Master of Kung Fu (Time of the feats I referenced)had no mention at all of an ability to use chi. In fact, when he met Iron Fist, he called his chi move an otherworldly, supernatural ability.


Anyways, you can find plenty of examples from across the spectrum. Batman kicking over a largish tree, Daredevil flipping over a car, ect..

Hit destroys MUI Goku with his killing technniques.