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Let's say Anakin walks into the same situation as he did in RotS, expecting to find himself battling Dooku and saving Palpatine, except:

1. Obi-Wan is not backing him up.
2. Palpatine is not there.
3. He finds prime Exar Kun instead.

They begin fighting. Who wins?

Kun wins with a single force attack.

If Anakin is serious from the beginning he curbstomps Exar.

In this scenario, Anakin walks in on an opponent that's had prep time. Kun charges up a force blast whilst Anakin is cutting up droids, and just as he gets through the door, Kun incinerates him.

You don't know what the context is. If Exar Kun were there the whole time charging a force blast, Anakin would've sensed him.

He's going to sense Kun charging up a force blast? Doubtful. No doubt he senses someone, but he isn't going to have the luxury of strolling through the door to an opponent like Dooku, who isn't allowed to kill him. If this is the same scenario as RotS, Kun knows Skywalker is coming and one-shots him.

He noted specifically that he sensed Count Dooku in RotS, and Jedi can definitely sense when Force users are charging up an attack apparently powerful enough to oneshot Anakin.

Then he's not going to have a hope of defending against a blast capable of ripping apart massive Sith Wyrms.

Kun isn't pre-charging any attacks or spells in this fight.

Anakin has plenty of quotes from multiple sources putting him in Yoda's tier.

Context is important

George Lucas disagrees regardless.

abandon fight chingchang, you are outmatched

Originally posted by RealistRacism
George Lucas disagrees regardless.
Lucas has Anakin on par with Sidios in the Force and comparable/greater in lightsabers, lmao.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Context is important

Context? Let's just look at two from Nova's respect thread:


- The Making of Revenge of the Sith

Combative context.


- Revenge of the Sith novelization

Clearly not talking about potential, given the "arguably" qualifier and "still getting stronger".

Now you could argue that Exar Kun wins through greater mastery, sorcery, or something, but you'd have quite the steep hill to climb because we're talking about an absolutely astronomical gap in actualized power (given that Exar Kun is far below SF Malak). Anakin has far better dueling feats, and Exar Kun hasn't actually done much with his sorcery or force abilities off-nexus against well-established characters. I'm inclined to take Skywalker, then, on his far greater raw power and established combat feats, which include absolutely tooling Dooku in a matter of seconds where the Sith Lord couldn't do anything and was basically described by Stover as being helpless in every possible way.

exar has like 12 feats each where if anakin did just one the anakin brigade would spend the next 7 months wanking it and saying this proves he's gillard tier 123

imagine if anakin ripped apart a wyrm, froze an entire senate in stasis or did what exar did in DE

I was curious how well Kun might fare on account of his sorcery and the fact Anakin's Dooku-stomping catalyst (Palpatine) now isn't here to spur him on.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
He's going to sense Kun charging up a force blast? Doubtful. No doubt he senses someone, but he isn't going to have the luxury of strolling through the door to an opponent like Dooku, who isn't allowed to kill him. If this is the same scenario as RotS, Kun knows Skywalker is coming and one-shots him.
Anakin won't be sensing Kun's blast? https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/vzkq30L.png

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
I was curious how well Kun might fare on account of his sorcery and the fact Anakin's Dooku-stomping catalyst (Palpatine) now isn't here to spur him on.
Anakin almost three-shotted Dooku even before Palpatine intervened.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Context? Let's just look at two from Nova's respect thread:


- The Making of Revenge of the Sith

Combative context.


- Revenge of the Sith novelization

Clearly not talking about potential, given the "arguably" qualifier and "still getting stronger".

Now you could argue that Exar Kun wins through greater mastery, sorcery, or something, but you'd have quite the steep hill to climb because we're talking about an absolutely astronomical gap in actualized power (given that Exar Kun is far below SF Malak). Anakin has far better dueling feats, and Exar Kun hasn't actually done much with his sorcery or force abilities off-nexus against well-established characters. I'm inclined to take Skywalker, then, on his far greater raw power and established combat feats, which include absolutely tooling Dooku in a matter of seconds where the Sith Lord couldn't do anything and was basically described by Stover as being helpless in every possible way.

Thanks for already pointing out the 'arguably.' It may be argued that Anakin's the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, but based on all available evidence, I don't think that's true. George's quote claiming that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, with Anakin having his chance to do so some time in the future, is telling. There's also Sidious telling Yoda: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." Obviously pointing to superiority in the future. If Malak is above Kun, then Malak is above Anakin.

Anakin's better duelling feats are what? Regarding Dooku, this is after the Count had been duelling both Kenobi and Anakin and was exhausted, whilst Anakin was "getting stronger." So he has superior stamina to Dooku when he draws on his rage? This is the point you're going with to prove superiority to Kun, who can stalemate the greatest Jedi of his era potentially *for hours*?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Anakin almost three-shotted Dooku even before Palpatine intervened.
Do you read the RotS novel every night and pray to Stover?

Anakin wins

Originally posted by RealistRacism
George's quote claiming that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, with Anakin having his chance to do so some time in the future, is telling.
Or George is just referring to in-universe threats to Sidious, which Anakin wouldn't fall under until after he kills Obi-Wan.

Lucas' statement that Anakin's as powerful as Sidious in ROTS and listed them both as tier nine makes it obvious they're in-league.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Regarding Dooku, this is after the Count had been duelling both Kenobi and Anakin and was exhausted, whilst Anakin was "getting stronger."
That's because Anakin exhausted Dooku.

Busy tonight though, so I hope Elm responds in full.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Anakin almost three-shotted Dooku even before Palpatine intervened. Proof?

Elm and Ant vs. Racism and ILS https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/U9bGRy9.png

Originally posted by CactusJoe
Racism and ILS "The green grass!"

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wait, then why did you bring up Lucas in the first place?
I'm fine to take that quote back if you want to retract the Gillard statements? I don't want either of their words' being factors here, but I'm debating to an audience that recognises their authority. We can get rid of it all or pretend it applies to Legends, your call.

The fact Lucas has Anakin on par with Sidious as both a combatant and Force power "points to this being the case."



Except "those other people's world" decided that G-Canon also runs their continuity also. thumb up

Plus, why even bring up Lucas then?

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Proof?

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Anakin completely breaking Dooku's defenses in three strikes and inflicting damage on him is "almost three-shotting" in my book.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Thanks for already pointing out the 'arguably.'

One in-universe quote uses the word "arguably", while several OOU quotes don't.

But I didn't argue Anakin was as powerful or more powerful than Yoda - I just pointed out that Anakin is in his tier, which he absolutely is if there are some IU and OOU sources that claim he's as powerful, some that claim he's more powerful, and some that claim he isn't more powerful yet. That clearly demonstrates that, in sheer power, Anakin is in the same general conversation as Yoda (and given the tiering system, he's a match in sabers too). Exar Kun, however, by the lines of scaling we have is not in the same league as Yoda. Per sources he's substantially below SF Malak, who is substantially below Revan Reborn, who is below TPM Mace Windu.



In addition to what Ant said, note that Lucas was giving a presumably unscripted interview. He mentions Yoda and Mace, and then in the next sentence includes Anakin too, then notes Anakin got his limbs chopped off so incorporates that into said sentence. When people are giving interviews they can not mention 100% of information in one sentence but then include some of it in the next sentence, and trying to hyper-analyze the syntax of his words here is kind of silly.

What we do have, however, are the tiering systems that were dictated by George Lucas. Given that these were formalized with deliberation and not a product of analyzing his word choice in a single interview, I'd take that as more solid.



As Ant points out, it was primarily Anakin whose every blow was aging Dooku by a decade or whatever Stover's prose was saying:



I mean, come on, Anakin is clearly superior.

And he was growing stronger because he was letting go of his inhibitions. Anakin then proceeds to hand Dooku an absolute curbstomp where Tyranus can't do anything:



Note that this is the same Dooku who as a Jedi was in the league of TPM Mace Windu as a duelist, who was along with Yoda the most powerful Jedi in history per the fact files.



Stalemating Ulic doesn't compare to being in Yoda's tier per multiple sources.

Anakin ~ Yoda > Revan Reborn > KotOR Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Exar Kun

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Anakin completely breaking Dooku's defenses in three strikes and inflicting damage on him is "almost three-shotting" in my book. I mean, you can make anything sound like anything if you isolate it from its entire context, namely:

-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them
-Dooku just prior to the quote you posted was reeling from a surprise assault from Skywalker and Kenobi

Full quote provided below:

Lucas hasn't said that though, and if he has it's a blatant contradiction, in which case his words aren't very reliable. If this is about the tiering system; Nick Gillard's words about a vague set of 'levels' discussed with Lucas in a back office during production, is hardly enough to overwrite George's statement of Mace, Sidious & Yoda > Anakin.



Then this is going to be a debate about the tiering system.

I'll respond later Ellim.

Exar > Naga > Ajunta > Muur > Krayt > Anakin

Yeh Anakin was legit destroying Dooku. That is something me and Darthant atleast agree on

LMAO @ ILS. Will respond later tonight.

the fact that you all are entertaining the posts of someone named "RealistRacism" is disgusting. Never knew Star Wars was full of nazis, but it shouldn't surprise me.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
LMAO @ ILS. Will respond later tonight. Okay, I got you booked in for 3 weeks fam! Extensions available.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them

True -- but that doesn't change:



The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---



But ... he has.



Or you accept my alternate interpretation, in which everything is perfectly consistent.



No, he explicitly states "the levels were created by George Lucas," and they are even cited in the same Making Star Wars book as your "after Mustafar" quote.



You're the one who brought up Lucas.

I like how Kun's confirmed to be > Star Forge but people still pedal the entirely wide-open Malak quote.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them

True -- but that doesn't change:



The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---



But ... he has.



Or you accept my alternate interpretation, in which everything is perfectly consistent.



No, he explicitly states "the levels were created by George Lucas," and they are even cited in the same Making Star Wars book as your "after Mustafar" quote.



You're the one who brought up Lucas.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Or George is just referring to in-universe threats to Sidious, which Anakin wouldn't fall under until after he kills Obi-Wan.







Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader as long as Padme was alive, ergo prior to the Anakin/Kenobi fight.

So yeah very possibly correct interpretation here.

This is why I keep warning people about taking 1 obscure quote and running with it as fact, whist ignoring all other evidences.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader as long as Padme was alive, ergo prior to the Anakin/Kenobi fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader

Originally posted by Darth Thor
full control

^ Future planning that would not go anywhere until the post AniVader/Obi-Wan battle which Lucas refers to as the point where he may have become a threat to Palpatine... Had that fight gone his way.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
True -- but that doesn't change:



The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---
Seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but if you can prove Anakin can "nearly threeshot Dooku" without the aid of a surprise attack, Kenobi's help, Dooku letting his guard down and a lengthy duel leading up to the supposed "near three shot", you are welcome to do so.

I mean, if I could threeshot someone, I wouldn't bother with Kenobi and Anakin's theatrics and strategy beforehand. I would just threeshot him. Anakin didn't threeshot Dooku later on in the fight either, even with his mounting anger.

Exar Kun is already greater if not on the same leagues with Sidious.

Anakin takes a good beat. That is all he gets.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Exar Kun is already greater if not on the same leagues with Sidious.

Anakin takes a good beat. That is all he gets.

Hah

Originally posted by Vitiate
Hah

I don't know if it is supposed to be a counter or a proof.

But as long as it doesn't provide any insight. It's not my concern to reply with a counter.

Keep in mind that Anakin almost three-shotting Dooku was when he was still holding back. Even when he was almost causing the Count to fall unconscious Dooku explicitly made note of how Anakin was still holding back.



"The boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical."



^ This is before Palpatine's interference.



I don't agree with Evannova's analysis of Plageuis, but I feel if you took it and applied it to Anakin it'd fit quite well. Anakin does have the power to oneshot a bunch of people like Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, he just won't because he's reluctant to use that power.

Just as Anakin's hindered on Mustafar he was also hindered on the Invisible hand.

The only time Anakin's truly unhindered or close to being so is during Operation: Knightfall.



"He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard his new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life."



Anakin metaphorically crushing the dragon under his heel his basically himself giving himself permission to use his FULL power at it's FULL capacity.

Yeah, and then before the Mustafa fight Anakin senses the Dragon left poison in him which starts weakening him (metaphorically of course).

And still not good enough to compete with Palpatine (reserved for Yoda and Mace). Anakin takes this L https://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/Smileys/default/tg5Ws.png

Yeah Palpatine or his older self. If he faces his older self then hed be in some serious shit!

Anakin Skywalker have tremendous raw power and have a shot at victory in theory but Exar Kun can make good use of his Sith Sorcery in order to succeed.

Yeah, honestly, Kun one-shots with sorcery.

Without sorcery, we have him scaling so far beyond Muur in skill it isn't funny. Muur who proves himself capable as a swordsman against Darth Krayt. I don't think I need to make the adequate comparison between Kun and Muur, though I will if required.

In terms of power, we have prime Kun eventually becoming far more powerful than Bnar; who tanked the surface of Ossus rupturing from ten supernovae, due to the knowledge he'd gained from the Chamber of Antiquities and other knowledge from the Great Library. The same Bnar who channels power from a devastated Ossus to borderline stomp Sedriss who was arguably a threat to Luke Skywalker.

https://media.giphy.com/media/mOrT9xXXZse40/giphy.gif

Anakin wins

Sub-Malak trash is sub-Malak trash

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeah, honestly, Kun one-shots with sorcery.

Without sorcery, we have him scaling so far beyond Muur in skill it isn't funny. Muur who proves himself capable as a swordsman against Darth Krayt. I don't think I need to make the adequate comparison between Kun and Muur, though I will if required.

In terms of power, we have prime Kun eventually becoming far more powerful than Bnar; who tanked the surface of Ossus rupturing from ten supernovae, due to the knowledge he'd gained from the Chamber of Antiquities and other knowledge from the Great Library. The same Bnar who channels power from a devastated Ossus to borderline stomp Sedriss who was arguably a threat to Luke Skywalker.

What's this topic with Exar Kun's sorcery?

Does the idea that Kun used magic(his power boosted by the Gauntlet Amulet) to defeat the Sith wyrm still persist?

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Keep in mind that Anakin almost three-shotting Dooku was when he was still holding back. Even when he was almost causing the Count to fall unconscious Dooku explicitly made note of how Anakin was still holding back.



"The boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical."



^ This is before Palpatine's interference.



I don't agree with Evannova's analysis of Plageuis, but I feel if you took it and applied it to Anakin it'd fit quite well. Anakin does have the power to oneshot a bunch of people like Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, he just won't because he's reluctant to use that power.

Just as Anakin's hindered on Mustafar he was also hindered on the Invisible hand.

The only time Anakin's truly unhindered or close to being so is during Operation: Knightfall.



"He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard his new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life."



Anakin metaphorically crushing the dragon under his heel his basically himself giving himself permission to use his FULL power at it's FULL capacity. Yeah guys, keep in mind that Anakin almost three shotting Dooku was before he stopped holding back and took way more than three blows to defeat him. #trufaxonly

I just watched the Clone Wars episode where a pissed off Anakin took quite a few attacks to only tko Clovis.
His strength is unimaginable.

Just thought I'd lob that in there

"Clovis felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with hair: each step a blow and each blow a step. Clovis backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Clovis' breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Clovis understand that he'd been suckered."

Clovis > Dooku imo.

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Anakin wins

Sub-Malak trash is sub-Malak trash

DE Luke is sub-Malak trash, good to know.

Originally posted by AncientPower
DE Luke is sub-Malak trash, good to know.


Lmao No.

1.That quote has been debunked in numerous ways. Kun is literally > the Star Forge, kek.

2.Both base DE Luke and Ood Bnar displayed superiority over Executor Sedriss, though you can argue Luke showed it with less effort. Exar Kun as of the devastation of Yavin IV is canonically far more powerful than Ood Bnar is, even with a much more lively and powerful nexus to draw from than Bnar would've had to channel against Sedriss.

Time to get with it already.

Except Kun isn't his vast inferior, and never has been. Kun stomps him, in fact. Ulic is a much fairer contender.

I honestly don't believe that a throwaway line from a magazine regarding Malak's mouthpiece is a true indicator of where exar kun stands in relation to him.

With that said, Kun is roughly Dooku level and Anakin stomped Dooku so he should definitely win.

The Reborn Emperor got defeated by someone inferior to a guy who's sub-Malak? Of course 'muh force harmony,' but that's still not enough to bridge the supposed gap. This isn't looking good for the Sheevites.

Revan Reborn >>> SF Malak >>> Kun > JA Luke > DE Luke = Ability to compete with/defeat Peak Sheev.

Add on the infinite versions of Revan and Vitiate, and we definitely know Shrimpatine is getting fvcked in the ass by any major TOR character. Maybe this Malak scaling was a blessing in disguise

Absolutely wrong once again

Originally posted by deathslash
I honestly don't believe that a throwaway line from a magazine regarding Malak's mouthpiece is a true indicator of where exar kun stands in relation to him.

With that said, Kun is roughly Dooku level and Anakin stomped Dooku so he should definitely win.

If only you'd stopped with the first paragraph. A fellow Salamander player should know better. Kun is far beyond Dooku in every regard bar lightsaber skill.

The era of Malak > DE Sidious is upon us, just wait for Az to retract his support for the scaling. Revan and in turn, Valkorion, reigns supreme now. Get over it libtard

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Absolutely wrong once again

Don't worry, you can still scale Malak well above the likes of Muur.

So let me get this straight

Saesee Tiin>>Darth Malak>>>>Luke>DE Sidious>>Yoda>>>Peak Obi-Wan>Dooku>Exar Kun

I see, very nice

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
So let me get this straight

Saesee Tiin>>Darth Malak>>>>Luke>DE Sidious>>Yoda>>>Peak Obi-Wan>Dooku>Exar Kun

I see, very nice

Saesee Tiin >> Darth Malak >>>> Luke > DE Sidious >> Yoda >>> Peak Obi-Wan > Dooku > Exar Kun > JA Luke > DE Luke > DE Sidious >> Yoda >> Peak Obi-Wan > Dooku > Exar Kun > JA Luke.

Yep, this Malak scaling is bs

Absolutely fantastic

Glad we agree cuck

Don't forget the quote overtly placing TPM Mace and Yoda over Revan Reborn. So we can add in Mace, Maul, Dooku, Kenobi, Anakin etc to the list of people who scale over DE Sids.

Blaspheming Dooku is a punishable offence big guy. We've already proven he's above DE Sidious, lets leave it there.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Don't forget the quote overtly placing TPM Mace and Yoda over Revan Reborn. So we can add in Mace, Maul, Dooku, Kenobi, Anakin etc to the list of people who scale over DE Sids.
Proving either; A.) Sidious has been fluking every one of his fights or B.) The Malak Scaling is ridiculous. I think it's clear.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Don't forget the quote overtly placing TPM Mace and Yoda over Revan Reborn. So we can add in Mace, Maul, Dooku, Kenobi, Anakin etc to the list of people who scale over DE Sids.



Originally posted by RealistRacism
Blaspheming Dooku is a punishable offence big guy. We've already proven he's above DE Sidious, lets leave it there.

But Dooku admits his inferiority in the ROTS Novel :sadface:

Originally posted by CuckedCurry

But Dooku admits his inferiority in the ROTS Novel :sadface:
Lies, tbh.

I concede.

Concession accepted

No I think the Malak scaling is legit, as is the TPM Mace scaling. It makes sense that as time goes on, the exceptional Force sensitives of each era become even more exceptional. The faulty link in the chain is when you try to scale Exar Kun over anyone meaningful, because no quote or feat backs up the idea Kun scales over anyone apart from the unamped dregs of his time and some who came before him.

Kenobi >>> Grievous > Dooku > DE Sidious. Take it to the bank, no more debating is necessary

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
No I think the Malak scaling is legit, as is the TPM Mace scaling. It makes sense that as time goes on, the exceptional Force sensitives of each era become even more exceptional. The faulty link in the chain is when you try to scale Exar Kun over anyone meaningful, because no quote or feat backs up the idea Kun scales over anyone apart from the unamped dregs of his time and some who came before him.
The dreg that defeated Palpatine, sure. You've opened Pandora's Sh!itbox ILS, Malak stomps Sheev now.

People were shitposting about this like 4 months ago lol. There was even some Vader and Kar Vastor scaling thrown into the mix.

Damn, forgot about that.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Proving either; A.) Sidious has been fluking every one of his fights or B.) The Malak Scaling is ridiculous. I think it's clear.
*Over KOTOR Revan

Shut up nerd, just embrace the wank ok?

Dooku says that about Anakin on page 77.

I haven't been able to find anything that says that Grievous is his superior.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Dooku says that about Anakin on page 77.

I haven't been able to find anything that says that Grievous is his superior.


^ Because he isnt. And they are joking.

Kek, we all know that Ben Skywalker is the most powerful Force user

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Because he isnt. And they are joking.

Ok lol Was starting to wonder what the hell was going on in here.

It's actually on page 91 in the bareback, but only Wolf knows about that one

And for hardcover?

Originally posted by AncientPower
If only you'd stopped with the first paragraph. A fellow Salamander player should know better. Kun is far beyond Dooku in every regard bar lightsaber skill. good to know that there's another Salamander player on the forum. Anyway, I don't recall Exar doing anything that was really impressive tbh. He kills a Sith Wyrm with magic amulets yet fails to kill one of the two 'false sith' that he explicitly set out to kill with one of those very same dark side blasts. He gets stalemated by an injured Ulic and seems to hold no level of force or saber skill over him when they fight. He stops the movements of the entire senate. Seems impressive right? Wel it is until you realize that the people that he froze were non force sensitive and he required prep time to do it. He wont get that chance in this fight.

As far as him being significantly more skilled than Dooku, I could believe that if we were just talking about knowledge of the force. But in sabers? Dooku has consistently beaten down two of the best duelists of the Jedi order, trained a jedi killing cyborg to be capable of standing up to some of the best duelists out there, and held his own against one of the only three jedi to disarm the most powerful sith lord in history.

I could be wrong since my knowledge of Star Wars isn't nearly what my knowledge of comics and 40k is, and if I am, please tell me where I'm wrong and provide examples since my knowledge of Star Wars powerscaling isnt spectacular.

Read a respect thread.

Dooku

Originally posted by deathslash
good to know that there's another Salamander player on the forum. Anyway, I don't recall Exar doing anything that was really impressive tbh. He kills a Sith Wyrm with magic amulets yet fails to kill one of the two 'false sith' that he explicitly set out to kill with one of those very same dark side blasts. He gets stalemated by an injured Ulic and seems to hold no level of force or saber skill over him when they fight. He stops the movements of the entire senate. Seems impressive right? Wel it is until you realize that the people that he froze were non force sensitive and he required prep time to do it. He wont get that chance in this fight.

As far as him being significantly more skilled than Dooku, I could believe that if we were just talking about knowledge of the force. But in sabers? Dooku has consistently beaten down two of the best duelists of the Jedi order, trained a jedi killing cyborg to be capable of standing up to some of the best duelists out there, and held his own against one of the only three jedi to disarm the most powerful sith lord in history.

I could be wrong since my knowledge of Star Wars isn't nearly what my knowledge of comics and 40k is, and if I am, please tell me where I'm wrong and provide examples since my knowledge of Star Wars powerscaling isnt spectacular.

He's stated to be far beyond Ood Bnar who could use the living Force energy to shield himself and Ossus from the worst of ten supernova waves that should've obliterated the planet. Bnar also goes on to display greater power over Exdcutor Sedriss. Which coincidentally puts prime Kun up there with DE Luke Skywalker.

He pulled a cruiser out of the depths of a temple whilst he was just starting out on Yavin IV.

He gained the complete knowledge from what is stated to be the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. Before destroying it.

He did stalemate Ulic in a duel but this was before Kun evolved his fighting style and outgrew his apprentice in power.

He's stated to be the most powerful Sith ever up to his era, placing him above Marka Ragnos. Marka Ragnos himself was the greatest up to his era. This places Ragnos, and by a greater degree Kun, beyond Ajunta Pall. Ajunta Pall was the most powerful of the Exiles, one of whom was Karness Muur who displayed powers relatively on par with the likes of Darth Krayt and Darth Vader.

That's just a quick overview.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's stated to be far beyond Ood Bnar who could use the living Force energy to shield himself and Ossus from the worst of ten supernova waves that should've obliterated the planet. Bnar also goes on to display greater power over Exdcutor Sedriss. Which coincidentally puts prime Kun up there with DE Luke Skywalker.

He pulled a cruiser out of the depths of a temple whilst he was just starting out on Yavin IV.

He gained the complete knowledge from what is stated to be the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. Before destroying it.

He did stalemate Ulic in a duel but this was before Kun evolved his fighting style and outgrew his apprentice in power.

He's stated to be the most powerful Sith ever up to his era, placing him above Marka Ragnos. Marka Ragnos himself was the greatest up to his era. This places Ragnos, and by a greater degree Kun, beyond Ajunta Pall. Ajunta Pall was the most powerful of the Exiles, one of whom was Karness Muur who displayed powers relatively on par with the likes of Darth Krayt and Darth Vader.

That's just a quick overview.

Before talking to you I had never known anyone could spout such absolute nonsense, with total ease.

"I have no meaningful response." would've been easier to type.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"I have no meaningful response." would've been easier to type.

A compulsive liar/Quote forger and a hypocrite is beneath my efforts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"I have no meaningful response." would've been easier to type.

Originally posted by AncientPower


I know you don't, so you quoted it rather than typed it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's stated to be far beyond Ood Bnar who could use the living Force energy to shield himself and Ossus from the worst of ten supernova waves that should've obliterated the planet. Bnar also goes on to display greater power over Exdcutor Sedriss. Which coincidentally puts prime Kun up there with DE Luke Skywalker.

He pulled a cruiser out of the depths of a temple whilst he was just starting out on Yavin IV.

He gained the complete knowledge from what is stated to be the most powerful Sith holocron in the mythos. Before destroying it.

He did stalemate Ulic in a duel but this was before Kun evolved his fighting style and outgrew his apprentice in power.

He's stated to be the most powerful Sith ever up to his era, placing him above Marka Ragnos. Marka Ragnos himself was the greatest up to his era. This places Ragnos, and by a greater degree Kun, beyond Ajunta Pall. Ajunta Pall was the most powerful of the Exiles, one of whom was Karness Muur who displayed powers relatively on par with the likes of Darth Krayt and Darth Vader.

That's just a quick overview. those are some solid feats. There are some things that I'd like to dispute, but I require a bit more knowledge.

If it wouldn't bother you too much, may you please post a scan or link to the statement regarding Exar and Ood Bnar? Was Bnar as powerful as Sedriss before or after he became a tree? That second question is more important because it seems like several hundred (or would it be a thousand) years of being alive would give him a very big amount of time to become more powerful.

May you please provide scans of him pulling the cruiser?

May you please provide a source for where this holocron is said to be the most powerful.

Wasn't his style already highly developed? Where was it said that he became a better duelist?

All of those questions are answered in the short respect thread I authored here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/sithrevenant/blog/exar-kun-the-chronological-respect-thread-2018/134756/

Originally posted by AncientPower
All of those questions are answered in the short respect thread I authored here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/sithrevenant/blog/exar-kun-the-chronological-respect-thread-2018/134756/ Did you just end Kun's respect thread by proving Malak is above Kun?

Honestly, Ziggy as 'JMANGO' made a better case than anyone on why the Malak scaling is trash. A lot of it never got rebutted, so you should just check that out.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Honestly, Ziggy as 'JMANGO' made a better case than anyone on why the Malak scaling is trash. A lot of it never got rebutted, so you should just check that out. Post it because AP did an awful job there. He did some mild twisting and basically added a question mark to the proof.

That really should not have been included. If you're going to add something like that to the respect thread, you should provide counter proof or actually be thorough about it. Am I missing something on mobile mode or something? People in the comments were acting like Jmanant should be scared and I must be missing something... was this how he ended it, because this is how he ended his thread on my end:

"Yet he never clarifies anything about why Malak wins. So SF!Malak >>> Exar Kun?"

AP also did a thread with ILS and got clowned, so yeah I don't know what's going on with him. I'll find the Ziggy stuff in a sec.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16551871&highlight=malak+userid%3A154051#post16551871

Pages 5 and 7.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Post it because AP did an awful job there. He did some mild twisting and basically added a question mark to the proof.

That really should not have been included. If you're going to add something like that to the respect thread, you should provide counter proof or actually be thorough about it. Am I missing something on mobile mode or something? People in the comments were acting like Jmanant should be scared and I must be missing something... was this how he ended it, because this is how he ended his thread on my end:

"Yet he never clarifies anything about why Malak wins. So SF!Malak >>> Exar Kun?"

Except I showed that the one segment of that article Ant used was literally just saying that the Star Forge gave Malak access to powers Kun and Nadd didn't have. I also didn't want to force my own interpretation on it, instead I sought to open up some free thinking and debating instead of indly accepting a quote taken out of the context of the greater whole.

By the way, it ends with a .gif of Pablo Hidalgo saying "None of this is Canon". At least, on desktop.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16551871&highlight=malak+userid%3A154051#post16551871

Pages 5 and 7.

Much better, though all it essentially boiled down to was "It could also mean this". I'm not too concerned about Malak vs Kun, but I just found it wildly out of place with an otherwise decently researched thread. I'm not saying I found everything perfect of course, but I mean come on. You can't read that and not see how out of place it is and how he didn't even cast doubt on the actual proof he presented. He might as well have posted the article and the tweets and said:

"But is he?"


My advice would be to delete that last section, or paraphrase everything Jmango said. It'd be a much more fitting end. I would have stated nothing had he ended it with a little more clarity I think is what my point is.

But now I have to explain why it was wrong, so here we are.


Originally posted by AncientPower
Except I showed that the one segment of that article Ant used was literally just saying that the Star Forge gave Malak access to powers Kun and Nadd didn't have. I also didn't want to force my own interpretation on it, instead I sought to open up some free thinking and debating instead of indly accepting a quote taken out of the context of the greater whole.

By the way, it ends with a .gif of Pablo Hidalgo saying "None of this is Canon". At least, on desktop. I saw the gif, but I was referring to your last words. But him calling it Legends doesn't exactly help your plight considering he is lumping it in with the Legends continuity. He wasn't saying it was non canon to Legends, he was saying it was non canon to Disney Wars.


No. And I also don't know what sort of shady shit Ant does in your opinion, but I do know adding additional context to the original quotes Ant apparently uses doesn't help.

Do you want me to explain these quotes and why you should avoid them? Let's do that then. Now I do have access to the original article but let's play the danger game and go by purely what you presented. We will use your quotes and common knowledge on the Star Forge here. That's it... this post.


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level."

I'll just list off some things from memory (and based off Jmango's post to a degree) from the Star Forge:
It could create mass ships using the power of the sun. Create an army
It had cannons
It could turn the force energy of a Jedi into pure dark side energy that Malak could absorb
It gave Bastila an amp to her power just by being inside it



---



Now, based off first appearances, the addendum you added to the treachery of Darth Ant doesn't help:

"Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level."

Using a power source, Darth Malak POSSESSES Dark Side FORCE powers out of proportion with his stats that the article gave (which indicates an amp on the actual stats they gave).

No, hold on, let's simplify this further. This is what the quote means if it's referring to the power source (cannons, ship building, dark side taint makers):

"Using a power source, Darth Malak possesses a power source to create some ships, also cannons."

That's redundant. It's not referring to itself twice, and the sentence makes little sense. It's referring to the Dark Side FORCE POWERS that the power source gives him. Cannons, and ships don't fall under the definition of Force Powers. That is a misinterpretation of the quote.

We're under the assumption that this power source grants him additional Dark Side Force Powers that directly flow into stated stats. This additional power apparently is out of proportion with his stats. Using the power source he possesses additional Dark Side Force Powers that are above his stats. IE, he is amped far above his norm to an unknown degree.

Now we'll go back to what this means if it's referring to ships:

"Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force power ship building abilities, and cannons out of proportion, in game terms, with his stats."

I looked at the stats. None of them mention ship building abilities that these powers would make them out of proportion with.



ETC. Basically it can't be speaking of ship building abilities and cannons. It has to be speaking to additional force powers he gained from the Star Force. Which is again, redundant, because we know he did in at least one way (two if we assume he gets the same powerup Bastila did). However, it's important for the reading of the article.


---


Now we get to the meat of the article. One shady Ant with his gross bug legs spouts around everywhere.
Again, important parts in bold:


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"

Did his jaw afford him far greater powers than Freedon Kun, or was cybernetic enhancement too easy an answer?


Again, let's simplify this:

"Did Darth Malak's jaw give him far more physical strength, ship building abilities, and cannons than Exar Kun, or Freedon Nadd (intangible spirit incapable of physical strength, cannons and ship building qualities)?"

In addition to referring to Freedon Nadd in reference to ship building and cannons, it also says FAR GREATER, not more numerous powers. Since we highly doubt it's including Nadd in the conversation with what the Star Forge creates (again, far greater, not powers he doesn't have in the first place), what could these possible powers entail? What could FAR GREATER POWERS be if we want to pretend it's not purely speaking about actual force powers? What could be more realistic than actualized force powers?

Also, it's not stating he has access to these powers that he never uses. It's not a potential power source in this case. It is asking what gave him powers far greater than those two, not if the upgrade gave him powers far above them. That's a very important distinction. For that to be true, it would read something like this:

"He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd?"

That's it.

However the importance of that second part - where it asks for an explanation for why his powers are greater - means it isn't a question of whether or not his powers are greater, but why? It confirms that with whatever they could be speaking of with far greater powers, that Malak is greater than the duo is at those specific powers.

Basically all it questions is whether or not Malak's jaw is the culprit behind his far greater powers. That's it.



And in case it needs to be said, "powers far greater" is speaking of powers they already have. That statement is a direct contrast of their powers, and Malak's are greater. Not more numerous, not powers they don't have, but greater powers than them.



---



Now, I chose to read the second part first, and for good reason. That reason is, by you directly connecting the quotes like that (they weren't in the article), you made it seem like they were explaining their previous paragraph - that Ant likes to sashay around like a pansy - to mean they were speaking about this power source giving Malak Dark Side Force Powers far greater than Freedon Nadd, and Exar Kun. I mean we can, we very easily can, but you keeping those two quotes so close makes it seem like they are specifically speaking about him getting an amp to DSFP in excess of them.

For example, this is how that reads:

"Is it his jaw that's giving him powers far greater than Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun? Who knows, but whatever this mysterious power is, it's severely amping his Dark Side Force Powers to get to that level."

Do you see where I'm going with that?


I think that should help. But wait.

However, we shall delve deeper. Let's actually read the whole article, shall we?

http://web.archive.org/web/20090603071915/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Why is this important you ask? Because the article has no trouble mentioning fleets, dark jedis, alien battleships, corps, and yes, a limitless supply of ships (cannons included). It makes use of a bunch of powers Malak has and none of them are out of the ordinary for a Kun level user.

It literally covers the excuses and misinterpretations people have for the quotes. Those aren't a secret. Here just because I have to include it:

"At his disposal was a thousands-strong army of trained Sith conscripts and corrupted Dark Jedi, and a rumored alliance with the massive Czerka Corporation. Malak's Sith fleets were comprised of Republic defectors and a seemingly limitless supply of strange, alien battleships."


Those weren't connected to his powers. But considering we know the limitless supply of ships was no secret, yet we still assume "Powers far greater" had in someway anything to do with ships, then the article is literally asking - in some people's interpretations - if his fukking jaw is the cause of this limitless amount of ships.
Do I need to explain this too?



Basically the full article separates his fleet and things not connected to his body from his personal power. And why wouldn't it? Afterall, the intention of this guide is for people to fight Darth Malak in a head to head confrontation.


In combination with the limitless ships being known in this article, and what I said previously, I don't think the article can be pointing to anything but personal power. And I don't think it has any room in a respect thread, especially when you don't even try to discount it, and then show tweets of someone confirming that he thinks Malak would beat Kun.

Again, I'm not concerned with the actual battle between the two, since I don't think you really want me to go into a lot more things to discuss. I'm just providing my interpretation of the article, and why I don't think you should have used it.


But that's just how I read it. I could be missing stuff since I proofread none of this, and don't plan to, but I will expand if need be.


*"ships and cannons" are a placeholder for more things possible. I'm not saying they were the only possible things, just a placeholder for the most likely things. I'm not limiting it to just that of course, or what you guys are specifically stating, just saves time. Of course I don't believe any of that, just in the event you get confused that I'm straw manning you guyseseseses*

One Big Mob smiting everywhere he goes. Come get these lightning bolts, bitches.

Mob doing the work of the Supreme Maker as per usual

Big Mob just initiated the 100th debate AP will have on this topic

The real debate should still be Palpatine vs Malak. Are we just going to ignore Malak's RPG force stats sh!itting all over Sheev's? This is a real libtard ownage moment

I like how you're using Jmango's argument for ships and cannons as if I've been using that myself in more recent arguments. I fully accept it isn't referring to the production of military resources.

But no, this is out of grasp with the actual context:



This literally states he gets three extra Force feats(techniques) and 24 extra skill points(Mastery) in said Force feats from a mysterious power source, but it doesn't specify which Force feats/techniques/powers they are. That doesn't matter all that much in our debate though. Because this entire quote is the in-game attempt at implementing the effects of the 'mysterious power source' (Star Forge) on Malak. It's literally this quote in game terms:



Like, it couldn't be more obvious that this is what he was going for. In both quotes he refers to powers Malak has that he gained from a power source no one knows about. It clearly doesn't refer to Malak's actual power in the Force. Note his usage of these terms:

"and devastating Dark Side power"

"Did it provide him with powers far greater"

Herndon clearly knows his plurals and singulars, he tells the reader about Malak's actual power well before then.

More importantly, the entire gist of Malak using the Star Forge in the actual source material, doesn't put emphasis on how corrupted the station is or how powerful he is on it. The big smoking gun is literally Malak being able to draw taint from the Force power of dead Jedi willy-nilly. The big threat he makes is that he'll do this to Revan:



Consumption of tainted spiritual energy from Jedi who are dead, but suspended in a way that they can't become one with the Force. That's the big secret to the Star Forge. It's actually pretty interesting, because that's what Darth Plagueis spent years researching to try and prevent. The spirit's inevitable pull into the Void/midichlorians disappearing upon death. He was increasing his power with the tainted power the Star Forge gave him access to.

Very impressive, because it's far from your average drain. In fact, I'm not entirely sure it is drain. Regular drain would be Krayt drawing on Luke/Abeloth. This is more akin to spirit consumption ala Nox or Vitiate.

Yay, AP's having a 50 page debate.

AP, to get some clarification, are you arguing that the Star Forge provided more powers to Malak than Exar Kun had; like if Exar Kun had 4 force powers, Malak had 10? Or, are you arguing that the new powers that the Star Forge gave him are greater than Exar Kun/Freedon Nadd?

That his powers were 'greater' than those Kun or Nadd weilded, not more numerous.

Expand on how that wouldn't make him more powerful.

The potency of a technique does not equate to the individual power of the user. I somehow doubt you'd agree Traya > Vader due to 'giga' drain.

...

Alright.

I had a couple posts ready under the guise that you were going with numerous (which is also a reason people state outside you apparently), but I figured I'd ask first right before submitting. I actually joked about this being something you couldn't be arguing about... oh how wrong I was.
Anyway, I might get back to this tomorrow or doubtfully later on tonight. I've had enough Star Wars stuff for now. I think I know how to play the ****ing roleplaying game now to a great degree, so I think that might be enough for the day.

Fair enough.

Anakin wins this. Good fight

Originally posted by Jaggarath
*Over KOTOR Revan

Revan Reborn is a Jedi

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Revan Reborn is a Jedi Revan is a God actually.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how you're using Jmango's argument for ships and cannons as if I've been using that myself in more recent arguments. I fully accept it isn't referring to the production of military resources.

But no, this is out of grasp with the actual context: That's perfectly fine. I was just covering the potential readings of the quote. I'm glad we narrowed it down to specifically one thing and it can't possibly be another according to you though. It is important to cover all avenues of what the quote could mean though.

If I understand you correctly now, you're stating that Malak was in possession of powers above what Exar Kun could wield. I will try and cover that here, and also if Malak was in possession of powers potentially above what Exar Kun wielded, as I feel that's also a possibility, and important to nip that in the bud before it becomes a goalpost move.

Which if true, it means you've accepted the quote as legitimate, but you've spun it ever so gently as to IYO be meaningless. It's a little confusing.

"Yes he did possess powers above Exar Kun, but it doesn't put it above him, nor would it help him in a fight."

Eh?



Originally posted by AncientPower
This literally states he gets three extra Force feats(techniques) and 24 extra skill points(Mastery) in said Force feats from a mysterious power source, but it doesn't specify which Force feats/techniques/powers they are. That doesn't matter all that much in our debate though. Because this entire quote is the in-game attempt at implementing the effects of the 'mysterious power source' (Star Forge) on Malak. It's literally this quote in game terms: So you think that these two quotes connect? So, when he says "powers far greater", he actually means 3 more powers that even though they're far greater than the power Exar wields... we don't actually need to name them?

And you'll notice how many extra skill points were given to POWER UP his Dark Side powers like lightning and such, not his actual (new) Force Feats. He gets 3 extra feats, but then he gets a lot of points to actually power up his dark side moves. That indicates a powerup in line with the article.

And no, I never did, or don't think I have excluded the possibility of him getting new powers. He had a decent amount of time to hone his skills with the Star Forge and the additional power after all. However, I don't think a few powers (3) is what it was applying it to in the usage of "far greater", and even more so when it gives him a host of points to power up his normal force powers beyond his level.

Also this:
"Enhanced Force Powers"



And yes, it kind of matters what powers he was given considering your argument has him being a "user" of powers far in excess of what Exar Kun knows. Let's think about this for a minute here. Let's actually go down the path of what he could know that could be in far greater numbers than Kun:

He doesn't know Battle Meditation, or the Force Storm. He doesn't know alchemy (of which Kun is an expert on), nor has he done actual rituals (though he apparently knows some Sith sorcery). What powers is he going to use and learn from the Star Forge that are above Kun's total power? There are very few powers where on their own they would be considered above the power Kun wields due to how powerful they are.
Did Malak know Thought Bomb, Force Destruction, Force Storm... Force Net, etc? It's not really a long list of actual powers he could learn to potentially be above Kun of that esoteric nature, and if he did actually know them, then yeah, that admittance would probably put him above Kun on its own., and therefore his raw power. Especially if he could just fire off a thought bomb on his own instantaneously.

If however, you don't want to assume Malak knows moves on this nature, then you go back into what he did know and that would be his common powers like lightning and drain and such. The quote would then in your opinion mean that the Star Forge gave him powers above what Exar wielded, which would basically be admitting that it was specifically speaking about raw power instead of the potential potency of the Force Power in question. Unless you're arguing that Cory who is a master of plurals specifically used a quote for no reason... which you are. I mean, this entire argument is just a massive semantic argument about an assumption you have on the usage of the quote.
But in the case of it referring to common powers and still not putting Malak above Kun, you would be arguing that they could very well have referred to any possible power imaginable in this case, as any power has the room to grow above what Kun wields. You've made the quote so redundant that it actually brings into question the writing abilities of Cory, and makes him look kind of simple. But that is speaking about the potential of powers; you seem to arguing that those powers he wielded WERE above what Kun wielded. So... if they were common powers that were above what Kun wielded... I'm at a loss as to how he's not above Kun? Not only would that mean that his personal power was so great that common powers were above Kun, but it would mean in a head to head power off between the two users using comparable powers, that Malak would overpower him by a considerable degree. But yet... that wouldn't be enough to be considered more powerful?

If a whole host of powers are greater than Kun's entirety, then yeah it wouldn't be wrong to consider him more power. Not only that, but the whole "Far greater" thing implies actual offensive/destructive power as well.


So yes, it is kind of important to distinguish what he was given if the quote was purely speaking of powerful Force Powers and has nothing to do with raw might. You think it more likely that the quote is referring to "unimportant" powers far greater than Kun can wield, yet find it ridiculous to think this could possibly have anything to do with Malak's raw power?

This is under the assumption that it is purely speaking about Force Powers as well in case I need to remind you, and ignoring again, that again, even in the game he gained a ton of points to level up his Dark Side powers. We could also look at the specific moves themselves, but leveling any of those up are going to do a lot for his offensive power.


---


I think I know what you're going for, and I will address that, but first, you spoke of Traya's "giga" drain being above Vader. While the technique might be heading for a no-limits fallacy, it's really no different than any other force power. Lightning, force push, choke, etc could all be above Vader.
The difference however between Traya's drain and the Kun/Malak quotes, is that Traya's drain ability was never stated to be directly more powerful than the totality of Darth Vader. There is no relevance to be had here to this conversation.

To compare it, we would need a quote like this:

"Traya's power drain ability was far greater than Darth Vader."

And yeah, if something like that were stated, we have a specific power above Vader, and we could probably surmise that Traya can beat Vader. Might not have more raw power, but that's really not relevant in a battle between the two. And because it's a drain ability, it builds with it the implication that Traya could become immensely powerful.

A couple things here though. There are what, 3 levels of that specific drain in the game? We have fodder assassins, Traya, and Darth Nihilus. That means the drain ability on its own is obviously dependent on its user, and it (to fit your argument) obviously isn't just a power that is above Vader. And considering Nihilus vs Vader is an argument (maybe not to you), it brings forth a question of that specific power at its maximum even being considered above Vader.

It's a dangerous technique to be had, sure, but not exactly one you can put above Vader.


What this ignores however, is that the quote seems to be contrasting similar powerS, and exactly that... powerS. Something you make a little fuss about later on. Let's see what that quote looks like adjusted for powerS:

"Did Malachor V provide Darth Traya with powers far greater than even Darth Vader, or was a Force Nexus too simple of an explanation?"

Since we're just going by the assumption of powers here as opposed to raw force might, we would then have multiple powers in addition to drain that are above Darth Vader. It gives us an "Oh" moment where we have other things in addition to her drain putting her above Vader. It's not one specific force power anymore that makes her a threat to Vader's power, it's multiple. And then it can let our minds wander to what else can be above Vader level:

Lightsaber dueling
Force fortune telling
Maybe even her choke
Drain
Power sever (iirc)
etc

You know what? Maybe a couple of these in combination with that quote would put her above Vader. It's not one thing anymore, she now has multiple powers above what Vader can wield. So yes, if Traya was tied to that quote with Vader and it only being specifically about powers and not raw might, that quote would put Traya above Vader. While that would be hard to prove outside that specific quote, in the context of speaking about like me and you are about Malakun, it would definitely not look good for what the author thinks about Vader compared to Traya.



And that is how you would tie Traya to Vader and that quote. Not just throw out one questionable power and say "See, it doesn't work because Traya has one cool power!".

Originally posted by AncientPower
Like, it couldn't be more obvious that this is what he was going for. In both quotes he refers to powers Malak has that he gained from a power source no one knows about. It clearly doesn't refer to Malak's actual power in the Force. Note his usage of these terms:

"and devastating Dark Side power"

"Did it provide him with powers far greater"

Herndon clearly knows his plurals and singulars, he tells the reader about Malak's actual power well before then. If his powers are far greater (newly provided or preexisting), then wouldn't his power also be greater? If we take that quote to mean his powers are far greater, how would this not flow into personal power?

"His lightning, drain, force pushes, chokes, stasis, etc are far greater... but not his actual power!"

Think about it as an expansion for his actual application of force powers as well. He had devastating Dark Side power, and something provided him the powers to consider his Dark Side power devastating. He doesn't need to keep speaking about his power when he's adding additional context... but I think I've said enough up there. Let's move on to a slightly different thing.



You speak of the significance of plurals, singulars, and a peculiar little 's', but you fail to realize that "far greater" doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of it being purely about being about powers that don't flow into Malak's greatness. I will speak more about the significance of the quote, and the people, but first I want to sum up some stuff I've said over these few posts:

Malak using an amp possesses extraordinary Dark Side Powers out of proportion with his stats.
Malak then gets new powers, and more importantly a bunch of skill points to power up his normal dark side exclusive powers. This hints at a Dark Side Nexus
Bastila gets a powerup on the Star Forge as well.
Darth Malak is literally ripping out tainted Dark Side energy to power himself up in the game
His powers, or at the very least some of his powers are far greater than Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun
The writer of the article thinks that Malak would beat Kun


Basically what these factoids establish is that Malak is fairly amped, and it stands to reason his fairly common powerS would be amped as a result. Not only does logic dictate that, but the article outright states he gets points to power those powers up. Some of those powers or even new powers get amped to a degree to be placed above Exar Kun, and the writer himself thinks that Malak himself is more powerful or at the very least would beat Kun - indicating these powers are combat efficient powers if they weren't common powers he already had.

Even if we argue the semantics of this statement like we're doing, it's not exactly a leap to assume the article points to Malak being above Kun. Like I said, it's not exactly an article along with the subsequent tweets that belongs in a respect thread.

But you know, whatever floats your boat I guess, let's move on.




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You're under the assumption that they brought up Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun as a comparison just to say Malak's power up gave him more potent powers than them, and this would be an utter mistake to confuse it with raw power. It specifically used two of the more recent Sith Lords of that time (both in the timeline and IRL) to compare him to; two beings known for their raw might. And if he is using them as a point of comparison, it stands to reason he is contrasting raw power with them. If he is using their raw power afterall, it'd be questionable if he wasn't contrasting the raw power of Malak's "moves". If that's the case, as said above, it would flow into raw power as well for Malak.
Had they brought up versatility, alchemy, range, impact, or any other sort of thing, it would be another story. They specifically brought up powers however. Kun's strength were his Dark Side Powers. If powers were "far greater"... that doesn't indicate Kun was brought up to merely serve as... no reason?



Back to the jaw thing and the possibility that it's speaking of powers they don't have however...
Are we really going to entertain the possibility of his jaw giving him super massive dark side powers in excess of Exar Kun's power, via powers that Kun wouldn't have? I mean it was a possibility, but it in the context of his jaw being a catalyst for power, it'd be more likely that it would only amp his current powers as opposed to giving him new powers that NaddKun didn't have access to. This statement seems to point towards current powers as opposed to new powers anyway. Not enough on its own, but important to note.




And one more point on the language of the quote... it's again, a direct comparison that his powers are "far greater than". Do you ever use the "greater than" symbol (&gt in combination with "far" to indicate comparing two things in completely different aspects? That sentence indicates that it's comparing similar powers. You wouldn't say a Nuke is far greater than a tidal wave for instance unless you were specifically talking about destructive potential. I don't know exactly what you think is being compared (though I have my suspicions), but I do know it wouldn't make sense to contrast passive Dark Side powers with the powers Exar Kun wielded.


Let's take a look at that sentence with the application of the greater than symbol though:

Malak's powers >>> Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun

Even if we focus heavily on the cute little 's', that doesn't exclude Nadd/Kun as we know they also have "powers". It was saying his powers are > their powerS. No actually, it was outright saying his powers are > than even THEM.
What your argument would then be, is that Cory was focusing on Malak's powers and straight up compared it Nadd/Kun. Not their powers, just them as a whole.

If you really want to be pedantic.






AAAAAANNNNNNNDDDD... you speak of Cory's intentions when Cory himself even after all these years still thinks Malak is above Exar Kun. Naturally when he was writing pure hype for brand new Malak, that thought wouldn't have crossed his mind to compare him to the fairly recent Sith Lord dealings of Kun and Nadd and them being hugely powerful.

"Nah, it's pretty obvious that I'm referring to the potential of his powers he has and this has nothing to do with his raw power. Also I think Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun, but this article has nothing to do with that!"





Basically, the Star Forge made Malak's powers far greater than Kun. It doesn't mean he was given more powers than Kun, or powers Kun doesn't have, it means whatever he was given allowed him to be perceived above Kun; even if he were limited in range. For example, if he only knew, or even gained lightning and drain, his powers were so high that that apparently was enough to be considered more powerful. That's how the quote reads to me.
It very well could have provided him with additional powers as well... powers that were far greater in power than Exar Kun that is. srug



Originally posted by AncientPower
More importantly, the entire gist of Malak using the Star Forge in the actual source material, doesn't put emphasis on how corrupted the station is or how powerful he is on it. The big smoking gun is literally Malak being able to draw taint from the Force power of dead Jedi willy-nilly. The big threat he makes is that he'll do this to Revan: Which increases Malak's power... that kind of has a big thing to do with how powerful he is on it...

"Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!"

And yes, turning someone into living battery is kind of a big threat. He already says he's going to beat him, there's not much more he can do to threaten him with his power besides kill him. He chose a worse fate though. He tells Revan that Revan himself will be supplying Malak power while he conquers the galaxy.

You kind of lost me here like this actually had nothing to do with power or something. I don't know.


*This is *

Now this is what I believe you're referring to when you mention super duper powers. You're speaking about the drain of Malak, or at least I believe so... could be wrong, doesn't matter.

Now, as we've established earlier (and you just did), the Star Forge is the one corrupting the powers of these Jedi. Darth Malak does not possess this power however. Darth Malak is only getting more powerful from draining these powerS. The only purpose of these powers are to specifically increase Darth Malak's dark side might. So if this is the big lead up to the powers Malak is provided it is literally a powerup for him. Not a corruption, not a super duper drain power, but it is literally powering him up. Which falls in line with what I'm saying.

So, as we know something is providing him with powers far greater than Exar Kun. Why not concentrated Dark Side energy from an unknown amount of individuals?

If it's so simple as a powerup, then yes, naturally his powerS would be far greater IF he took it to that level.



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Is everything I'm saying making sense, or at least probable to you? Keep in mind I'm not arguing that the article if definitive proof that Malak > Kun. I'm just saying that if you're going to speak of the article and combine it with tweets, it certainly seems to STRONGLY hint at him being greater. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Revan totally > Naddkun though.

Jesus. Did you have to write two walls of text? Don't expect me to quote slice in my response to you.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Consumption of tainted spiritual energy from Jedi who are dead, but suspended in a way that they can't become one with the Force. That's the big secret to the Star Forge. It's actually pretty interesting, because that's what Darth Plagueis spent years researching to try and prevent. The spirit's inevitable pull into the Void/midichlorians disappearing upon death. He was increasing his power with the tainted power the Star Forge gave him access to.

Very impressive, because it's far from your average drain. In fact, I'm not entirely sure it is drain. Regular drain would be Krayt drawing on Luke/Abeloth. This is more akin to spirit consumption ala Nox or Vitiate. I felt it was pretty interesting as well. He's not simply draining the force - which we know he has a drain ability since he does drain them of their power - he's corrupting them and draining their dark side to power himself up. That's either a completely retarded and unnecessary way to acquire force power, or it has some significance... even just reading it at a surface level.
He also implies it's not simply a one and done deal by continually draining Revan as he travels the galaxy.

I'm not sure where I'd put it personally, but I do agree it's not just a normal drain.

I also do think Malak was quite powerful, and on the Star Forge he was fairly unclassified in power. You can't really scale him to anything but Revan at the end, and Revan isn't exactly the easiest to scale either. But yeah.


I'd actually be interested to see what a thread would bring out about that quote. I'd do some research myself, but I don't want to. I kind of just want to play KOTOR 2 to cleanse my palate of all this roleplaying shit I've been reading.


Originally posted by AncientPower
Jesus. Did you have to write two walls of text? Don't expect me to quote slice in my response to you. Of course. It's important to cover as much possibilities as I feel necessary. I could have wrote more, I don't know. I was nearing the limit and didn't want to extend it more.
This is how I debate. I want to address what you're stating as opposed to simply handwaving everything away by saying now. Which I mean, I could... ?


You reply to whatever you want, it's OK. If I do respond again which there's no guarantee, I will respond with what I deem needed to properly address everything you state. I almost didn't reply with this one as I didn't really care, but I figured what the heck, can't sleep, might as well. Still upset I wasted a post on "numerous" though, but whatever, another day.

So, first off, let me get something straight. When I say that the Star Forge afforded him 'far greater' powers than Kun or Nadd had the possibility of weilding. I am thinking along the lines of these:



So Revan and Malak had access to a planet-sized storehouse of secret Sith knowledge. This is already something Kun wouldn't know, and they themselves would know this because they had access to some of the Sith Brotherhood's teachings:



So that's already pretty indicative of Malak possessing an unknown amount of esoteric knowledge, which Kun wouldn't possess, so where does the Star Forge factor in you ask? Well, the Star Forge is an even greater powerbase and source of esoteric knowledge than Malachor V.



The Rakatans had means of using the Force in ways neither Jedi or Sith comprehended. Soa had techniques that could create mind traps out of thin air, use advanced lightning techniques known as a Force 'vortex', teleport and more. Given that the Star Forge was the pinnacle of Rakatan power and Malak had full access to this station, well, I think you can guess where I'm going.

There's a whole boat load of esoteric and forgotten knowledge out there throughout the mythos that many of the traditional powerhouses of Star Wars are not privy to. This is doubly so for Rakatan Force knowledge.

So Malak having access to extremely esoteric and savant Force powers that would be naturally far more potent than those Exar Kun had uncovered would not only be well within reason, but essentially common sense. Nor would this necessarily corellate to superior Force power. The reason I say this, being that we have the likes of Wyyrlok III with an unrivalled knowledge of the Force in his time and arguably greater Force powers, but clearly not more raw power than Krayt. There are many examples to choose from.

But I mean, if we really want to talk about Cory Herndon here:



So, even if you want to argue that it does mean what you suggest it means, then you must conform to Herndon's statement that Malak's far greater power is a combination of his prime position to conquer the Republic(backed up by the Legacy CG), the Star Forge's incomparable ability to churn out endless ships, and then perhaps a dark side increase in power. So only one-third of Malak's superiority to Kun, per Herndon himself, can be owed to the Star Forge having some sort of connection to the dark side. Which again, is debatable as to what exactly that entails.

Though, I am glad to see that you're as sharp witted as ever, my old friend. Many others here take it as word of God.

A Sidious-tier vs a sub-Malak has-been
I could not possibly pick between the two

No children in the adults area please.

Alright. I will leave, sir- or is it madam? Gosh, I can't keep track.

God would be more befitting.

Yes, sir-madam-it.
I will worship the sub-Malak scrub. I will build a shrine for His Fantastic Holiness Exar Kun.