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Malak shrouded Bastila's vision. Can Sheev compete?

- RotS Sheev
- Unamped Malak

This would be a jaw dropping experience for Malak.

Thank you. Malak stomps with his Kun scaling.

Palpatine scales from both Malak and Kun, though.

False.

Malak doesn't scale from Kun at all.

Kun's spirit is confirmed to be more powerful than Kyp Durron. Kun in his prime has big scaling from Ood Bnar that places him up there with DE Luke, who's already stronger than Yoda at this point.

Why do you have Kun below Yoda then? I swear you always do this, you hype Kun up to a massive degree and provide context for feats that sh!t all over Yoda's, then you cuck and put him below RotS Sheev.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Why do you have Kun below Yoda then? I swear you always do this, you hype Kun up to a massive degree and provide context for feats that sh!t all over Yoda's, then you cuck and put him below RotS Sheev.

Because even AP knows there's no logic to be had in placing Kun above ROTS Sidious.

Because Yoda's only as powerful as Sheev via knowledge, not raw power:



So even with DE Luke being stronger than Yoda:



That only likely means he's on par with ROTS Sheev, or a little stronger.

Now, the real question is how much does Sheev actually grow after this? Well TFU Sheev had a desperate battle with an inferior to Yoda, in Galen Marek. Indicating that despite 19 years of power growth, it isn't so considerable that Sheev would take Yoda in an easy fight the second time around. ROTJ comes around, and this is where his power does seem to rise considerably. More importantly, DE Sheev is much more powerful than he was in ROTJ.

DE Sheev only defeats this now Yoda+ Luke easily with an enormous nexus amp, but then goes on to get trounced by a much more powerful Luke Skywalker whose potential is being gradually unlocked by Leia.

So where's the middle ground? How much does the nexus effect the first stomp? How much does Luke's unlocked potential effect the reverse stomp? In mid-ground, with no nexus and no potential unlocking? It's a far closer battle either way.

Which means that ROTS Sheev's growth to his prime, might not be as gargantuan as everybody assumes it is. Sure, DE Luke is > ROTS Yoda. But we have reason to think that DE Sheev is significantly but not overwhelming more powerful than DE Luke.

So, where does Exar Kun figure into all of this? Not as powerful as the DE Sheevs or Tenebraes. But not that far behind either. Just my personal insight.

Though Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke is pretty mouthwatering.

Ah fvck, I messed up the image:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393739-6788966917-53937.jpg

You mean to tell me that Yoda's force knowledge outstrips Palpatine's by so much that it negates/makes up for a supposed raw power gap? What force knowledge anyway? How to use tutaminis? Nothing we saw from Yoda in RotS required use of knowledge that Sidious didn't already have.

Was that image from the DE Sourcebook? You know, the one created before Yoda and Sidious actually fought?

Force knowledge isn't as simple as which techniques you use, it's more how you use them. His mastery of the Force is likely much greater than Sheev's is given the 800 year advantage he had on him.

You realise things aren't retroactively retconned by newer sources? Just because one guy at De Agostini told Ant that they weren't considering Revan at the time of the Fact Files doesn't change the scope of the entire canon system as established by Chee.

Not that Luke Skywalker being stronger than Yoda was ever in doubt, the only question was how long it took him to achieve that.

If not an individual power, then what? If the source meant Yoda was Sidious' equal because of 'overall mastery', it would've just said that. Instead, we're given a vague quote stating 'knowledge' as the reason, something that isn't relevant.

The Luke stuff is fine then, whatever. Anything that boosts Kun further is something I'm in favour of.

^ Knowledge/Mastery increases power anyway. So its just playing semantics. Important part is the quote suggests they were equals.



Originally posted by AncientPower


http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393739-6788966917-53937.jpg


Sounds like the present tense tbh.

Precisely, as you said it's vague. So in some way, Yoda holds such knowledge that it bridges the gap to Sheev and allows him to hold his own over-all. My theory is that his eight century longevity advantage allowed him to master certain aspects of the Force to a degree greater than Sheev had. It's hardly beyond the realm of plausibility.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sounds like the present tense tbh.

If you can name any legitimately comparable adversary of the time, I wouldn't be overly opposed to that interpretation. But it seems to be a general estimation to me.

^ Why do they have to be comparable?

The entire Rebellion are adversarys of his. It wasnt Luke who destroyed the second Death Star and toppled the Empire.

It's not as if he's spent all of those 800 years solely dedicated to mastering the force, especially not for combative use, but I digress. I guess where I'm struggling, is the gap between Yoda and RotS Sheev being big enough to fit Kun in.

You seem to be speaking in terms of raw power only, which I never brought up. In terms of actualised power, Yoda and Sidious are demonstrably on par, which leaves Exar as... their equal?

If your whole argument is about raw power with no other considerations, then excuse my misunderstanding. But your scaling thus far, looks like this;

DE Sheev > Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke > Yoda (= RotS Sidious)

My point is that the difference between the Sheev incarnations is demonstratably not nearly as enormous as we might think. Where Kun fits in is debatable.

Malak.

Either draw. Or Palpatine stomps.

Originally posted by AncientPower


Because Yoda's only as powerful as Sheev via knowledge, not raw power:

So even with DE Luke being stronger than Yoda:

That only likely means he's on par with ROTS Sheev, or a little stronger.

Now, the real question is how much does Sheev actually grow after this? Well TFU Sheev had a desperate battle with an inferior to Yoda, in Galen Marek. Indicating that despite 19 years of power growth, it isn't so considerable that Sheev would take Yoda in an easy fight the second time around. ROTJ comes around, and this is where his power does seem to rise considerably. More importantly, DE Sheev is much more powerful than he was in ROTJ.

DE Sheev only defeats this now Yoda+ Luke easily with an enormous nexus amp, but then goes on to get trounced by a much more powerful Luke Skywalker whose potential is being gradually unlocked by Leia.

So where's the middle ground? How much does the nexus effect the first stomp? How much does Luke's unlocked potential effect the reverse stomp? In mid-ground, with no nexus and no potential unlocking? It's a far closer battle either way.

Which means that ROTS Sheev's growth to his prime, might not be as gargantuan as everybody assumes it is. Sure, DE Luke is > ROTS Yoda. But we have reason to think that DE Sheev is significantly but not overwhelming more powerful than DE Luke.

So, where does Exar Kun figure into all of this? Not as powerful as the DE Sheevs or Tenebraes. But not that far behind either. Just my personal insight.

Though Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke is pretty mouthwatering.

1. So Yoda's knowledge makes up for the power gap. What?! Yoda when he duelled Palpatine literally only used Tutaminis and TK. His "superior knowledge" didn't come into play at all which means they must have been close in power. This makes no sense.

2. TFU Sidious struggled with a oneness amped Marek not normal Marek. The power Marek gained when he was amped was astronomical and was stated to "make the dark side of the force look like child's play" to paraphrase the text as I believe it said something of that nature but it's not exact I don't think.

3. Also if you employ this scaling you basically shoot yourself in the foot because if we go by this and that if Marek did indeed "give Sheev a desparate battle" then Sheev just prior to ANH was much more powerful than his TFU self as Vader as of TFU 2 could ragdoll Marek effortlesslyand The Emperor was more powerful than him.

4. Nexus's are greatly overexaggereated and given how easily Sheev won I don't really think off Nexus Luke would have faired much better.

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. So Yoda's knowledge makes up for the power gap. What?! Yoda when he duelled Palpatine literally only used Tutaminis and TK. His "superior knowledge" didn't come into play at all which means they must have been close in power. This makes no sense.

You're literally arguing with the source material, you do realise that?

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. TFU Sidious struggled with a oneness amped Marek not normal Marek. The power Marek gained when he was amped was astronomical and was stated to "make the dark side of the force look like child's play" to paraphrase the text as I believe it said something of that nature but it's not exact I don't think.

He wasn't Oneness amped, lmao. He found clarity, more akin to Malgus. If he was Oneness amped, he'd have stomped Sheev because Oneness literally transforms you into much greater than your own potential. Marek's potential was greater than Sheev's. Plus, he'd be literally transforming into light if he was in Oneness.

Originally posted by HP Legend
3. Also if you employ this scaling you basically shoot yourself in the foot because if we go by this and that if Marek did indeed "give Sheev a desparate battle" then Sheev just prior to ANH was much more powerful than his TFU self as Vader as of TFU 2 could ragdoll Marek effortlessly and The Emperor was more powerful than him.

When will this shit argument die? Read this post, because I'm too lazy to parrot Ant's 9 month old debunk of it:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2#post16507215

Originally posted by HP Legend
4. Nexus's are greatly overexaggereated and given how easily Sheev won I don't really think off Nexus Luke would have faired much better.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/cb89abffb06b3fabb69dfab551e3a0ac/tenor.gif



Palpatine's victory is directly attributed to the nexus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're literally arguing with the source material, you do realise that?

He wasn't Oneness amped, lmao. He found clarity, more akin to Malgus. If he was Oneness amped, he'd have stomped Sheev because Oneness literally transforms you into much greater than your own potential. Marek's potential was greater than Sheev's. Plus, he'd be literally transforming into light if he was in Oneness.

When will this shit argument die? Read this post, because I'm too lazy to parrot Ant's 9 month old debunk of it:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2#post16507215

https://media1.tenor.com/images/cb89abffb06b3fabb69dfab551e3a0ac/tenor.gif

Palpatine's victory is directly attributed to the nexus.

1. Are you seriously arguing with the source material right now which later in your post you accused me of doing? LMAO. Malgus gaining clarity and recieving a rage amp is not the same as what happened with Marek.

Marek is literally stated to have embraced the force utterly:

Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child.

-The Force Unleashed

His power was such that it made his efforts with the dark side of the force look like those of a child indicaating a massive power increase which puts him astronomically above normal Galen Marek. If anything it's a great feat for Sheev that he held off someone as powerful as Marek while oneness amped.

Besides even if you were to conclude he was not oneness amped then my point would still stand because as I've proven Marek was massively more powerful than his normal self.

2. Ant's debunk proves nothing. Marek may have been exhausted but the problem with Ant's point is Marek was rage amped which should cancel out all negative conditions he was dealing with prior to the amp. In fact there are numerous instances of rage amps negating fatigue in Star Wars.

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her. "Juno!" A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

--The Force Unleashed II

3. I love how you horrendously misinterpret that quote. Sheev stomping Luke was atributed to the nexus not him beating Luke. Besides there is legitimately no dark side nexus which would allow you to stomp someone you would lose to or be given a fight by. In fact given how strong Sheev was by that point I really don't think the nexus could have amped him that much.

I also love your hilarious double standards when talking about this. I've seen you claim that nexus's wouldn't assist Valk too much and that some of his feats are still appliable despite him being on a nexus yet you fail to do the same with Sheev when he is canonically more powerful than Valk.

LMAO.

Besides AP his clones deterioration should logically negate the effects of the Daark Side Nexus. At best Sheev is only slightly more powerful than his normal self.

Marek was not rage amped - at least not in the context you’re presenting, lmao.

I can link you to some posts on why, if you’re interested in learning.

Accolades are obsolete. What matters is the feats. They are the only real "source" of debating.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Marek was not rage amped - at least not in the context you’re presenting, lmao.

I can link you to some posts on why, if you’re interested in learning.

Please do.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-showdown-at-the-iron-tower-revan-darthant66-vs-1967266/?page=4

Read "2) RE: STARKILLER SCALING."

- or -

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php threadid=649895&pagenumber=7#post16541521

Read "TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL?," which stretches down into the second post.

I've already read your CaV post against Az and nothing in there convinced me Vader wasn't capable of ragdolling a rage amped Starkiller. While it's true Starkiller wasn't amped for the whole fight the start is enough to at least show parity. The novelization makes it obvious Starkiller was angry at the start of the fight and this is echoed by Starkiller howling with rage when he attacks Vader. Vader then proceeds to ragdoll him and throw with apparant ease and is noted to be too powerful. This shows that Vader is comparable to a rage amped Starkiller or at the very worst slightly inferior and therefore seen as The Emperor is quite far above Vader basic logic tells us he's far more powerful than a rage amped Starkiller who at worst Vader is slightly inferior to. Therefore this validates my claim which is that The Emperor is masses more powerful as of ANH which was really all I was trying to prove. I'm not trying to prove Vader is masses more powerful than rage amped Marek just comparable to him which therefore places Sheev leagues above rage amped Marek which again supports my response to AP.

Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.

Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.

Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.

It's posts like these that make me wish I didn't listen Ant's request to drop that debate, lol.

Can you explain what part of Ant's argument you found convincing?

yeah revan >>> vader imho but ant was clearly wrong there, trying to delve into rpg mechanics to explain away why starkiller wouldn't get a rage amp from screaming in hatred and attacking vader with all his might

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Distinguishing Sith Rage (Force Rage, Dark Rage or whatever sourcebook names it), a dedicated Sith technique, from the common usage of negative emotions to fuel their combat prowess - a basic modus operandi of the Sith - is not a simple task. Ant adressed that flawlessly, IMO.

Too many times arguments enveloping supposed "amps" are brought up just because certain character is said to be angry or furious.

Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief". This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief" to paraphrase. This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.

Yeah, the mental gymnastics to argue that he wasn't being amped because he didn't consciously use a technique in an RPG sourcebook (and TPM Obi Wan was? RotJ Luke was? Seriously?) are kind of ridiculous at this point, and were clearly ad hoc arguments to fit the evidence to a particular conclusion that some people want.

Yeah people want so badly to believe Vader can't ragdoll Marek but all they use are the same debunked arguments and try to ludicrously claim Vader isn't capable of such a feat. I have to admit though the argument Ant used might actually trump all of them.

Ok.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Except this instance was amplification. He literally howls with fury and is stated to attack Vader with "all his rage and all his grief". This sounds an awful lot like a rage amp.

Why it was necessarily an amplification? By how much? For how long? Nowhere it's stated that the output of these feelings substantially changed Starkiller's combat prowess. And I didn't even delve into the fact that Starkiller was talking and experiencing visions in the meantime. So, even if, somehow, he did experience an unquantifiable "amp" that was ignored by the literature, there's little to support it lasted beyond the couple of blows that Vader "only just" intercepted.

Of course, assuming Starkiller was amped just because of that passage would also implicate on Vader being amped after Starkiller touched on subject of the Resistance: the literature even goes to the point to affirm "he had it a very deep nerve.", and Vader's prowess increases after that mention.

So, honestly, I don't understand why you are so zealous with this contention, in particular.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Why it was necessarily an amplification?

Because that's a central theme of Star Wars. The only counterexample I can think of is Anakin on Mustafar - but 99% of the other evidence supports the idea that rage = amp.



Given that at the end he's super-lightning-attacking an unshielded Vader for like 30 seconds, and then Vader isn't noticeably injured, it's safe to say that it's enough to draw a meaningful line of scaling between the two in RotJ Vader's favor, especially given that we know the entire fight was just a test for the Dark Apprentice.



You're ignoring the multiple times where Vader ragdolls Starkiller immediately after Starkiller's rage.



What does that have to do with the specific instances of Vader ragdolling Starkiller?

Let me ask you: if Starkiller >>> Vader, why does Vader keep goading Starkiller throughout the fight into using his anger to destroy him, even before they were outside where the Dark Apprentice could intervene? Is he suicidal or something?

BTW, your "the literature doesn't cite it as a factor" point would fail to explain why we should draw Starkiller's fatigue to explain why "Vader is too powerful. He tosses aside like a ragdoll".

kinda backhanded @TW lol

@Ell

I don't have the TUF book with me, I'm merely referring to the passage discussed above, at beginning of chapter 25.

This "amp" in particular doesn't seem to go past the part where he stopped to talk, after Vader stumbled backwards.

On the subject of the amplification, just because it's recurring it doesn't necessarily make it mandatory, especially considering no clarification was given about Starkiller's performance - and focusing negative emotions is the bread and butter of Sith doctrine.

On the other subjects, I don't have the book, so I can't possibly comment. My point was to address the "all his rage, all his grief" part.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
kinda backhanded @TW lol
Figured he has better things to do than waste time with lies

Originally posted by HP Legend
I've already read your CaV post against Az and nothing in there convinced me Vader wasn't capable of ragdolling a rage amped Starkiller.

Sad!



Except if he was only amped for the start of the fight, then he would have been unfathomably weakened for the rest of the fight, given that's how Force rage works. Note that that is NOT according to RPG sourcebooks but rather The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

This, of course, creates a laughable contradiction if we believe what you're saying, as it means Vader can ragdoll an empowered Starkiller yet can't handle a brink-of-death Starkiller. Remember, Vader almost died to a near-dead Starkiller in the cloning facility tower and only survived because Starkiller was hit with a Force vision the same moment - and the Dark Apprentice wasn't even present there.



Except being angry doesn't mean Force rage, unless you're ready to argue characters like Revan, Maul, Sion, Malgus, Wrath, Nox, etc. fight in a constant, never-ending state of Force rage. Force rage isn't just being enraged - it's a total immersion into the dark side per literally every source describing it.



We know the Emperor is unfathomably stronger than Vader via other reasons, such as Vader thinking that the Emperor wouldn't even feel threatened by the prospect of fighting him and Luke combined.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Why it was necessarily an amplification? By how much? For how long? Nowhere it's stated that the output of these feelings substantially changed Starkiller's combat prowess. And I didn't even delve into the fact that Starkiller was talking and experiencing visions in the meantime. So, even if, somehow, he did experience an unquantifiable "amp" that was ignored by the literature, there's little to support it lasted beyond the couple of blows that Vader "only just" intercepted.

Of course, assuming Starkiller was amped just because of that passage would also implicate on Vader being amped after Starkiller touched on subject of the Resistance: the literature even goes to the point to affirm "he had it a very deep nerve.", and Vader's prowess increases after that mention.

So, honestly, I don't understand why you are so zealous with this contention, in particular.

1. The text literally notes he was using these feelings to attack Vader so I really don't see how it can't be an amp.

2. The amp didn't last for long but in the time it did last Starkiller was grabbed by Vader and thrown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0rv08AD3c

(1:11) to (1:30)

3. The next part of your post isn't relevant so I don't really feel the need to address it. I pretty much agree Starkiller was only amped at the start.

While Starkiller was only amped for a few brief seconds there is enough to prove Vader is comparable to him. Vader blocks his strikes, breaks his force shiled, ragdolls him and was staed to be too powerful for Marek. Vader is at worst marginally inferior to a rage amped Marek.

I'll deal with your post later Ant.

@HP Legend

1- So, Maul "hate filled blows" were amped blows as well? Because Maul is clearly using his feelings in the quote above.

2- I managed to check the beginning of Chapter 25 until the part Starkiller muses about Vader controlling "the high ground" and, being generous, the only part where his blows could be interpretated as amped are the couple blows he unleashes until Vader stumbles backwards and then he breaks the engagement to check Juno and talk with Vader.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
@HP Legend

1- So, Maul "hate filled blows" were amped blows as well? Because Maul is clearly using his feelings in the quote above.

2- I managed to check the beginning of Chapter 25 until the part Starkiller muses about Vader controlling "the high ground" and, being generous, the only part where his blows could be interpretated as amped are the couple blows he unleashes until Vader stumbles backwards and then he breaks the engagement to check Juno and talk with Vader.

1. LMAO. They are not the same thing. The quote on Starkiller is considerably more akin to a rage amp.

As a reminder:

"He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her. "Juno!" A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward."
--The Force Unleashed II

I've underlined the relvant part for you. Starkiller was stated to be attacking with all of his strength, rage and grief. Now let's look at the dictionary definition of all because you seem to be in need of an explanation for the word considering you so persistantly claim he was not rage amped.

According to Google all when used in this specific circumstance means:

"Completely"

Galen completely submerged himself in rage which should logically amp him considering he was using it to fuel his attacks and using the full extent of his rage on Vader. He attacked Vader with the absolute complete force of his rage and grief proving he was indeed amped.

Also the fact is I really don't see how this isn't an amp. Starkiller though Juno was killed and she was the one thing he cared for which should logically amp him considerably considering character deaths amping someone has been shown many times in Star Wars.

2. You're correct which I literally said in my last post. That was the only time in the fight where Stakiller was rage amped.

And of course as a reminder Vader ragdolled him in this state:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0rv08AD3c

(1:11) to (1:30)

Originally posted by Jaggarath


Sad!

Except if he was only amped for the start of the fight, then he would have been unfathomably weakened for the rest of the fight, given that's how Force rage works. Note that that is NOT according to RPG sourcebooks but rather The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

This, of course, creates a laughable contradiction if we believe what you're saying, as it means Vader can ragdoll an empowered Starkiller yet can't handle a brink-of-death Starkiller. Remember, Vader almost died to a near-dead Starkiller in the cloning facility tower and only survived because Starkiller was hit with a Force vision the same moment - and the Dark Apprentice wasn't even present there.

Except being angry doesn't mean Force rage, unless you're ready to argue characters like Revan, Maul, Sion, Malgus, Wrath, Nox, etc. fight in a constant, never-ending state of Force rage. Force rage isn't just being enraged - it's a total immersion into the dark side per literally every source describing it.

We know the Emperor is unfathomably stronger than Vader via other reasons, such as Vader thinking that the Emperor wouldn't even feel threatened by the prospect of fighting him and Luke combined.

1. Don't get me wrong your post was excellent but this point in my opinion was quite weak. You didn't manage to prove to me he wasn't enraged.

2. Vader was cheapshotted by Starkiller both times after kicking his ass IIRC. Could you post quotes of the full fight if you have them because I don't have the novel as when I read it I got it from my local library? Regardless from what I could see from your CaV post and the quotes you posted there Vader was distracted and weakened by his prosthetics.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike. Juno lying limp in his arms. The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power. Juno-dead. He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her? The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

-The Force Unleashed 2

3. Addressed in my response to TenebrousWay.

4. My point wasn't to prove The Emperor was vastly stronger than Vader but to prove he was vastly morer powerful of TFU 2 and ANH than he was as of TFU. For this entire debate all I've been trying to do is highlight Palpatine's growth.

Sorry if I sounded a little condescending in some of my posts here BTW. I unfortunatley am not able to edit to fix the wording.

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. Vader was cheapshotted by Starkiller both times after kicking his ass IIRC.

The text constantly has them trading blows as near-equals, as I highlighted in red. Thus, the text indicates a level of parity between Vader and an extremely weakened version of Starkiller, unless you want to go Andy's unsubstantiated route that Vader held back (which would be a completely different discussion, although you seem not to subscribe to it anyway). Note that Starkiller's exhaustion would only be doubled if we consider your Force rage argument as true, given how Force users coming out of Force rage have an astronomical drop in power.

If you refer to the blue text, Starkiller's victory seems fair play. He strikes Vader with Force lightning, which goes through his insulated armor and any Force barrier. Starkiller then goes to strike him down, but is blocked by a vision.



(Fight I):

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity.They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

---

(Fight II):

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

--- --- ---

As for your "all his rage" argument, you're just not getting it. It's not just using your rage in battle; after all, it's not like Sith Lords don't strike with all their rage - Malgus isn't pulling his punches. Force rage is a *specific* Force application where Starkiller would have to openly embrace the dark side and go into a berserker state of dark side emotion. Starkiller does *not* do that, unless you think Starkiller only goes into Force rage for a single blow then stops. Note that Vader: The Ultimate Guide emphasizes how Luke's restraint against Vader and the Emperor after "drinking deeply into the dark side is "unprecedented", yet you're claiming Starkiller pulled it off also with no issue and little commentary.

Ultimately though, your argument is simply inconsistent with the events that take place before and after the "all his rage" incident, which places a weakened Starkiller, not an empowered Starkiller, alongside Vader. The most plausible, consistent interpretation is that Starkiller is angry and striking Vader, not that he's somehow temporarily surmounting all his exhaustions for a single strike then going back to below-normal levels.

--- --- ---

Also, if you want to see actual instances of Force rage to contrast what Starkiller did:

(Darth Maul):

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought,ÿI'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

---

When Maul goes into, the text emphasizes the surge in power but also his significant weakener thereafter. TFU doesn't do either for Starkiller. Moreover, when Jacen Solo goes into Force rage, he literally falls unconscious after he does it. Luke's basically the exception to the rule, which, as previously noted, is something sources stress. Starkiller isn't affected *at all* when he moves out of Force rage, nor does his immersion into Force rage seem to have any affect on his mind whatsoever. Your argument just ... doesn't work, lol.

Might not get back to this. It really depends on whether I have the energy to or not. If I do respond it'll be tomorrow or Sunday.

It seems long, but most of it is just quoting. Just a couple sentences of actual text.

Looked through it. Might actually get back to this but it depends on whether I have the time over the weekend. I'll see what I can do.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The text constantly has them trading blows as near-equals, as I highlighted in red. Thus, the text indicates a level of parity between Vader and an extremely weakened version of Starkiller, unless you want to go Andy's unsubstantiated route that Vader held back (which would be a completely different discussion, although you seem not to subscribe to it anyway). Note that Starkiller's exhaustion would only be doubled if we consider your Force rage argument as true, given how Force users coming out of Force rage have an astronomical drop in power.

If you refer to the blue text, Starkiller's victory seems fair play. He strikes Vader with Force lightning, which goes through his insulated armor and any Force barrier. Starkiller then goes to strike him down, but is blocked by a vision.

(Fight I):

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity.They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

---

(Fight II):

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

--- --- ---

As for your "all his rage" argument, you're just not getting it. It's not just using your rage in battle; after all, it's not like Sith Lords don't strike with all their rage - Malgus isn't pulling his punches. Force rage is a *specific* Force application where Starkiller would have to openly embrace the dark side and go into a berserker state of dark side emotion. Starkiller does *not* do that, unless you think Starkiller only goes into Force rage for a single blow then stops. Note that Vader: The Ultimate Guide emphasizes how Luke's restraint against Vader and the Emperor after "drinking deeply into the dark side is "unprecedented", yet you're claiming Starkiller pulled it off also with no issue and little commentary.

Ultimately though, your argument is simply inconsistent with the events that take place before and after the "all his rage" incident, which places a weakened Starkiller, not an empowered Starkiller, alongside Vader. The most plausible, consistent interpretation is that Starkiller is angry and striking Vader, not that he's somehow temporarily surmounting all his exhaustions for a single strike then going back to below-normal levels.

--- --- ---

Also, if you want to see actual instances of Force rage to contrast what Starkiller did:

(Darth Maul):

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought,ÿI'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

---

When Maul goes into, the text emphasizes the surge in power but also his significant weakener thereafter. TFU doesn't do either for Starkiller. Moreover, when Jacen Solo goes into Force rage, he literally falls unconscious after he does it. Luke's basically the exception to the rule, which, as previously noted, is something sources stress. Starkiller isn't affected *at all* when he moves out of Force rage, nor does his immersion into Force rage seem to have any affect on his mind whatsoever. Your argument just ... doesn't work, lol.

1. No I don't subsribe to the fact that Vader was holding back.

2. The first part of your argument would be fine if it wasn't a blatant strawmann. Vader was not beaten by an exhausted Starkiller LMAO. The part you completely missed when you made this argument is unironically shown in the quotes you provided.

"Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Now as you can see from the above quote it very clearly is insinuating that Vader has improved and is now a match for a more powerful version of Starkiller. Now if we go by your logic and say Starkiller was astronomically weakened then why does the text say that Vader had learned to deal with Starkiller? How can Vader have learned to deal with Starkiller when he is literally equaling an exhausted version?

Now we have some of the general points in the novel and basically the entire point of it to back up my previous point. The novel goes to great lengths to show that the only reason Starkiller is still standing is because of Juno and because he cares for her. These entire segments of Starkiller being stated to be exhausted are meant to show how his love for Juno can make him recover.

After going 13 days without food his love for Juno is literally enough to make him feel stronger than ever:

"Starkiller orbited Cato Neimoidia once, safe in Darth Vader's TIE fighter, and simply stared.He had been down a pit on Kamino for thirteen days, and in Vader's clutches for what felt like a lifetime.He had forgotten what sunlight looked like. He had forgotten what it felt like to be a free agent. There was so much he had forgotten, and so much that was slowly coming back to him. Juno. She felt strangely close, even though he had no reason to suspect that she was nearby. In his mind, she was coming clearer with every hour. He couldn't believe that she had almost slipped away. Oh, he understood it well enough. He knew all about Darth Vader's mind games and the power of the dark side. He had lived with it, and prospered from that, too, in his original lifetime. He could exert his will over others in order to get what he wanted, but he didn't doubt that... didn't doubt that Vader had almost succeeded in driving every last memory of the woman Starkiller had loved from his mind. Now she was back, and it seemed incomprehensible to him that she had ever gone away. Even when he had lost everything in his former life, when every last hope of victory had been taken from him, he had thought of her. His demise had meant nothing compared with the knowledge that she had escaped safely from the Emperor's deadly space station. Then... death. And revival. And forgetting, powerlessness, and fear. But now he was back. Nothing could stand between him and Juno. Not for long, anyway. With her ahead of him, leading him on, he felt stronger than ever."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Then there is this quote in his fight with Vader:

"The only emotion he would give in to was love."

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

You can say all you want that he was exhausted but canon simply does not agree with you.

(Continued Below)

The fight specifically notes how Vader had improved and was now a match for Starkiller unlike in his last fight where after Starkiller gained clarity and found out he didn't need to hate to beat Vader he won.

Then there is the fact that exhaustion in the novelization is used to prove how his love for Juno can stop anything in his path not to make excuses for his fight against Vader. The text potrays the two as equals and your exhaustion fallacy simply isn't supported by the texts which you use as the baseline for your argument.

2. Vader losing the fight was a cheapshot lol. As you yourself have admitted Vader was equal to Starkiller per the text itself. Then you have the fact that he tanks a far greater barrage of lightning later from Starkiller for a full 30 seconds. Starkiller getting one hit on Vader which makes use of the weakness of his suit does not prove his superiority as a force user. Vader basically tanked that blast and only nearly lost because of the weakness of his suit not because Starkiller was a better force user or duellist in fact as I mentioned the text notes the opposite.

3. Starkiller's exhaustion being doubled as of the second fight matters very little as he is still constantly dwelling on Juno in their second fight which as mentioned basically dismisses the exhaustion as thinking of Juno gives him strength.

4. Your entire argument is utterly baseless. You're basically assuming that because the text does not go into specifics about the rage amp that it was not there. Considering Boba Fett kidnapping Juno was enough to send Starkiller into a Force Rage I really don't see how Starkiller wouldn't get a rage amp here. Especially since he was stated to be using all his rage as already mentioned which should realistically mean he was rage amped considering Maul as you posted was rage amped when an overwhelming amount of rage fuelled him. The standard requirement for a rage amp is basically an abnormal amount of rage which was shown in the text here.

Conclusion:

You haven't really provided a reason as to why Marek wouldn't be rage amped besides the fact that the text doesn't specifically note it which is quite weak compared to the plethora of evidence which supports otherwise. And you "he was exhausted" argument is quite disingenuous and the text specifically proves otherwise.

I'm done here.

Where is it stated Starkiller was exhausted for that final boss fight with Vader?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Where is it stated Starkiller was exhausted for that final boss fight with Vader?

Before the fight although unfortunately I can't provide the quote as I don't actually own a copy of the book.

Not that it matters considering Starkiller was amped back to his normal levels anyway as proven in my post.

I don't agree with this notion of Force rage amping your Force strength. Why? Because Force users are naturally amping themselves in a fight to perform super acrobatics.

I am not here to confirm or infirm these scenes. But to say Force rage makes a Force user stronger is stupid. Force rage is just a power to strengthen your body just like Jedi use a reverse power(forgot its name) to do that.

People keep thinking the Dark Side>Light Side, and it's frustrating.

That counter was devastating tbh. Don't see how Ant can argue against it without performing serious mental gymnastics.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Before the fight although unfortunately I can't provide the quote as I don't actually own a copy of the book.

Not that it matters considering Starkiller was amped back to his normal levels anyway as proven in my post.


Okay thanks.

Cant find my damn copy either.

Moved house too many times. Should buy everything in digital.

Will respond in full in a bit. Props to the effort though.

Thanks. I look forward to your response.

And I thought Arkham's counter was devastating. Amazing counter Ant, would you mind if I took a stab at it though?

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
And I thought Arkham's counter was devastating. Amazing counter Ant, would you mind if I took a stab at it though? Everyone on the forum should respond IMO

It also depends on whether you want to try to reconcile the novelization and other sources, or just take the former. Given the canon stipulations of my debate with Ant, we would have to reconcile, so I think the evidence clearly points to Vader scaling from Starkiller - but if we just take the novelization, the evidence changes a bit.

I feel like Ant is missing some stuff, his argument is good but some of the points he's not quite grasping, no offence intended.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It also depends on whether you want to try to reconcile the novelization and other sources, or just take the former. Given the canon stipulations of my debate with Ant, we would have to reconcile, so I think the evidence clearly points to Vader scaling from Starkiller - but if we just take the novelization, the evidence changes a bit.

^ like it's hard to argue that if an unshielded Vader can take an enraged Starkiller channeling his power and then shooting lightning at him with all his might for 30 seconds, and that his apparent defeat is just a part of a test for the dark apprentice, and that he's goading Starkiller into using his hate and anger to strike him down, that RotJ Vader doesn't scale from Starkiller in any way lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ like it's hard to argue that if an unshielded Vader can take an enraged Starkiller channeling his power and then shooting lightning at him with all his might for 30 seconds, and that his apparent defeat is just a part of a test for the dark apprentice, and that he's goading Starkiller into using his hate and anger to strike him down, that RotJ Vader doesn't scale from Starkiller in any way lol.
It's fairly easy to counter given Starkiller's exhausted.

Or, if we just look at every other source, Starkiller doesn't channel his power across thirty-seconds. In the novel, Starkiller just needs a well-placed, concentrated lightning strike. In the DS, Starkiller actually ragdolls Vader into submission. You're just selecting the most favorable source to back Vader, even despite the fact there's no reason to place it above the novel and substantial evidence to the contrary.

If you want to use XBOX, I have no issue using the novel or DS to counter.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
And I thought Arkham's counter was devastating. Amazing counter Ant, would you mind if I took a stab at it though?

I didn't respond to you expecting you not to respond back. Although please respond to all my questions at the end if you do.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
I didn't respond to you expecting you not to respond back. Although please respond to all my questions at the end if you do.


Your turn, BTW I lack persistence, patience or energy for long discussions so I might only go at this for a few rounds.

I'll read what you wrote and respond accordingly on Tuesday.

I doubt I'll forget, but if Tuesday passes and there's no response PM me.

I have Spanish and English to focus on tomorrow and Monday.

Well DarthCaedus77 took over for me so I really don't feel the need to debate this. I'll probably take over after he gets bored. I also noticed how you completely ignored the part where I mentioned Starkiller was sent into Force Rage earlier in far less dire circumstances but that's probably because it's impossible to counter that. I really don't see how Starkiller wouldn't be rage amped seen as earlieer he was sent into Force Rage in far less dire circumstances.

I like how the entire comments have derailed from the op's thread. Instead of Malak vs Sidious we have Vader vs Starkiller. Make a separate thread for God's sake, and after you established your arguments and the winning side, come and comment here.

Yeah, because an actual Malak vs Sidious thread is what this forum needs.

Freedumb Nadd

You asked for it.

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Freedumb Nadd
I think you've actually dropped below him tbh

Originally posted by RealistRacism
I think you've actually dropped below him tbh

But via Shadow Guard scaling ur below me. So Freedumb>CC>RR?

Freedumb Nadd, CuckedCurry and RealistRetard :/

Doesn't matter. Admiral Thrawn shall Death Star every mockful member.

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
But via Shadow Guard scaling ur below me. So Freedumb>CC>RR?

Freedumb Nadd, CuckedCurry and RealistRetard :/
Nah, I'm the "Darkest power in the Galaxy" so I scale above them as well gg

Did you just make a "retard" classification?

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Nah, I'm the "Darkest power in the Galaxy" so I scale above them as well gg

You might be the darkest power in the galaxy but ur still below a Shadow Guard

Ur still at the bottom of the food chain my lil hotdog

Originally posted by Jaggarath
I'll read what you wrote and respond accordingly on Tuesday.

I doubt I'll forget, but if Tuesday passes and there's no response PM me.

I have Spanish and English to focus on tomorrow and Monday.

Ok, apologies for the absolutely shitty formatting, I haven't been on KMC long enough to figure out how TF you format properly.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Well DarthCaedus77 took over for me so I really don't feel the need to debate this. I'll probably take over after he gets bored. I also noticed how you completely ignored the part where I mentioned Starkiller was sent into Force Rage earlier in far less dire circumstances but that's probably because it's impossible to counter that. I really don't see how Starkiller wouldn't be rage amped seen as earlieer he was sent into Force Rage in far less dire circumstances. Are you guys just taking shifts on Ant attacks, or is anyone allowed to tag in?

Could I even go to the Ant side and tag myself into his side as well if I felt like it?

Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Go off, King.

There have been multiple reports for the same few individuals bashing/trolling in a few different threads.

You may not like or agree with one another, but there's no need to troll-bash here.


Please keep it civil, guys.

Thanks.

It was Nadd wasn't it?

Malak wins though. Too strong a jawline, while Sheev has old man jaw.

Originally posted by Vitiate
Yeah, because an actual Malak vs Sidious thread is what this forum needs.

Joking?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Joking?

No, I'm serious.

mmm

Interesting you both are in the thrall of Azronger, lol.

Az is now targeting families for his Sheev Reich.

Sheev Reich = Viertes Reich?

Much more insidious than that prospect.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
mmm

Interesting you both are in the thrall of Azronger, lol.

Whilst it's true I serve my master Az, my brother does not, he's offered to bend the knee but his love for Valkorion must be eliminated before this.

Az is a disgusting human being.

I thought his kind just murdered children... But to corrupt an entire family. Jesus.

Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad.

Originally posted by Galan007
Az is a disgusting human being.

I thought his kind just murdered children... But to corrupt an entire family. Jesus.

I was not corrupted, I willingly bent the knee though I disagree with their stance on Caedus.

I still don't know how Az became the Sidious Brigade's Leader... Early on he was doing debates repping Ancients. I distinctly remember a thread with him debating in favour of Kun being superior to Galen and Starkiller together. What good times.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
I still don't know how Az became the Sidious Brigade's Leader... Early on he was doing debates repping Ancients. I distinctly remember a thread with him debating in favour of Kun being superior to Galen and Starkiller together. What good times.
Brain damage.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Ok, and as for Vitiate I'm doing a CAV against HP on CV on this very same thing. Does one of you get mad and beat up the other brother out of frustration?

Did Az get in the middle of one of these conflicts like Marka Ragnos to Ulickun and corrupt you both?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
I can internally rationalize how you might think Caedus > Revan


Hmm

Where to next Ant? You've ended Kun (I can agree to disagree), you've ended Vader and Az... What now?

-

Originally posted by Vitiate
Hmm
???

JK has offered to judge, I only need one more.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Where to next Ant? You've ended Kun (I can agree to disagree), you've ended Vader and Az... What now? Revan. It's only fitting.

He's going to end Revan? That'll make it to the Top 10 Anime Betrayals...

Could be trying to make room for a Marka Ragnos regime? Revan doesn't currently fit into that, so he needs to be brought down a peg.

It was all a smokescreen.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
JK has offered to judge, I only need one more.

I could do it, but I guess you don't know me that well mmm

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
JK has offered to judge, I only need one more.

I can judge

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I can judge

Sure.

Have 5 judges and include Selenial and ILS.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Have 5 judges and include Selenial and ILS.

Ok, sure.

We're all still waiting on that...

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It was Nadd wasn't it?

I can assure you it's not the case. I wasn't the troll

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad.

Wow

I thought this was a joke

Originally posted by MythLord
We're all still waiting on that...

TBH I wouldn't mind a Caedus RT, the old one is sorely lacking in content and is in grave need of an update. Planning on making a blog on his power after my CAV with HP and my other CAV with DS.

Originally posted by Selenial
I could do it, but I guess you don't know me that well mmm

What's your CV account name? Ant suggested there be 5, him, you, JK, Ell and ILS all I need to do is ask ISL and see if he'd be ok, if he is then I've got 5.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
What's your CV account name? Ant suggested there be 5, him, you, JK, Ell and ILS all I need to do is ask ISL and see if he'd be ok, if he is then I've got 5.

Same as this. Don't use it much, no offence but CV is mostly degenerates.

Good formatting for a CaV though.

@Ant:



I was really tired when I read this and didn't see your counter sorry. Also sorry for being passive aggressive I just kinda come across that way when I post.
All good now?

@Selinial @Ant @Ell you guys have been tagged into the thread on CV. Now watch everyone assume HP destroys me.

Ant's going to claim more fine scalps. You literally can't beat him unless you're Nai.