Mace Windu vs. Dooku

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



AverageDebater
Round 1: TPM Mace vs. AotC Dooku
Round 2: AotC Mace vs. AotC Dooku
Round 3: AotC Mace vs. RotS Dooku
Round 4: RotS Mace vs. RotS Dooku

DarthCaedus77
Mace all rounds.

I Love Science
Originally posted by AverageDebater
Round 1: TPM Mace vs. AotC Dooku

Given that:

- multiple independent sources label TPM Mace Windu as a rival of Yoda
- given Yoda's age, it's unlikely that his power level changes that much, and indeed is more likely to lower
- Dooku's duel with Yoda, given the contradicting sources on how large Yoda's advantage was, is best reconciled with Yoda's matching Sidious given Dooku's large inferiority to him by noting that Yoda likely wasn't going all-out, given that he admitted he doesn't want to kill him in Dark Rendevous, and that Sidious was surprised by his power in RotS

It seems like Mace Windu should take this.



Simple transitive logic, as AotC Mace > TPM Mace by any rational interpolation.



Is Dooku a "rival" of Sidious by RotS? Clearly not. Mace wins.



p(k) -> p(k+1), Mace wins.

One Big Mob
Good thread. I hope Screwattack either does this battle or a Mace vs Kylo video one day.

RealistRacism
Dooku in all but 4.

relentless1
Dooku wins all but ROTS version of Mace

Dooku is said to have been the only one to match or best Mace in a duel besides Yoda and he only got more powerful as a Sith Lord so he can concevably win any fight with Mace up until AOTC, afterwards Mace has the entirety of the Clone Wars to get stronger to the point that he can actually fight on even ground with Sidious for a time

DarthCaedus77
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku in all but 4.

Good troll as always, you're really living up to your rep.

RealistRacism
Yeah, not a troll. It's well known that AotC Dooku surpassed TPM/AotC Mace... You're just dumb thumb up

Geistalt
Originally posted by relentless1
Dooku wins all but ROTS version of Mace

Dooku is said to have been the only one to match or best Mace in a duel besides Yoda and he only got more powerful as a Sith Lord so he can concevably win any fight with Mace up until AOTC, afterwards Mace has the entirety of the Clone Wars to get stronger to the point that he can actually fight on even ground with Sidious for a time You're neglecting that Dooku was a light-sider at the time.

Mace's Vaapad gives him the win for 4, not sure about the rest.

Beelzebub
Dooku.

victreebelvictr
Originally posted by Beelzebub
Dooku. Windu. smile

RealistRacism
The gap isn't gaping, honestly. I'm calling it though, this thread will morph into Mace vs Sidious for 1000th time.

Trocity
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku in all but 4.

MythLord
Dooku
Either way
Dooku
Mace

TheIndyJedi
Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Mace all rounds.

Emperordmb
I'd side with Windu yeah

Zigg
In good faith there is no reason to take the old TPM quotes seriously, those of which had relevance before Dooku was on our cinema screens, have naught now.

In good faith, Mace Windu has taken stalemates against Grevious in Legends and Talzin in cannon, despite the former loosing to Obi Wan and the latter getting disarmed within seconds on Darthormir (the core of her power) against Palpatine.

So I'll say that Mace looses the first three rounds. For one, he had not mastered Vapaad until the events of Shatterpoint - he still fears the darkness within himself and cannot fully unleash it. So he can't fully utilise Vapaad and he's fighting a more skilled swordsman. I'll say that in good faith, Mace wins the fourth round. But it will not be the type of stomp we see with Yoda by any means. Mace is no on that level and his Vappad only allows him to chanel the dark side power of his adversary back at them. It's a win via attrition more than anything because of Dooku's old age.

relentless1
Originally posted by Geistalt
You're neglecting that Dooku was a light-sider at the time.

Mace's Vaapad gives him the win for 4, not sure about the rest.

vaapaad won't work on Dooku, hes not a rage filled entity like Maul or Sidious is, hes calm and collected when he duels

RealistRacism
I'm not sure what relevance that has when channelling dark-side power, which Dooku has a lot of. He doesn't need to be angry for Vaapad to do its thing.

BestDebaterEver
Dooku.
Not sure.
Dooku.
Mace.

Darth Thor
Windu is in the same league as Yoda and Palpatine. Thats a League above Dooku.

We all just need to accept that.

RealistRacism
Originally posted by Darth Thor
We all just need to accept that I'm retarded
thumb up

Zigg
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Windu is in the same league as Yoda and Palpatine. Thats a League above Dooku.

We all just need to accept that.

This is a bad faith argument.

And the Mace brigade in general is a bad-faith campaign of dismissing the relevant fax.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by RealistRacism
thumb up



Triggered.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zigg
This is a bad faith argument.

And the Mace brigade in general is a bad-faith campaign of dismissing the relevant fax.


Lol I am not and never have been of the Mace brigade.

Sometimes we just need to accept facts though, which is difficult when it works against someones personal preferred characters.

Lucas and the films made it perfectly clear Mace was on the same tier as Yoda and Palpatine. Even the official website names him Champion of the Order.

BestDebaterEver
Zigg, here's my take on Mace and Dooku. I want to see your thoughts on them overall:

So, pre-TPM Dooku turns out to be a mega-prodigy. The best Yoda had ever trained etc. However, Mace comes along and quickly catches up to Dooku (despite being his junior by three decades?). As is pointed out, the only people to ever eclipse Dooku in lightsaber combat were Yoda and Windu. And Windu has similar quotes: the only people ever to match him were Yoda and Dooku.

So around TPM I am inclined to think Windu and Dooku are both pretty damn close, I'm unsure if there is a way to know for sure who at that point in time is better.

We get to post-TPM. Dooku see's a power spike thanks to his new Sith teachings. Windu is progressively growing stronger during the war thanks to him getting over his fear of using Vaapad. I would posit that Dooku initially surpassed Mace's power growth but that gap levelled out the more masterful Mace himself became over his emotions. Around the time of Dark Rendezvous (because of Yoda's musings) and their little skirmish in that comic, I would suggest they are back to being roughly even at this point.

Then we get to RotS. Specifically, when the news drops that Palpatine has cucked the Jedi Order and Republic to the Sith the whole time, in combination with the fact Mace has gotten over his fear of using Vaapad, Mace becomes an "8 bordering on a 9." (opposed to Dooku being a hard 8). Based on what is shown in RotS, I would argue Mace is progressively pulling away from Dooku and getting closer to the likes of Yoda the closer we get to the Sidious duel.

At the apex of Mace's powers, while I don't think he is quite on par with Yoda and Sidious, he's much closer to their level than Dooku. And I think that stems from the possibility that Mace was a greater prodigy than Dooku all along, and just had to unlock his inner power/potential by mastering Vaapad.

Meanwhile, I would argue Yoda stayed relatively stagnant from TPM to RotS, with him unleashing more power as the situation called for it. I do not buy the arguments that Mace was ever on-par with Yoda. Everything in the comics and novels themselves seems to contradict that idea and, even at the height of Mace's power in RotS, it's unclear how valid his victory over Sidious really was.

Zigg
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lol I am not and never have been of the Mace brigade.

This is a bad faith statement.




Indeed. Which is why, without the loop of Vaapad channeling Sidious' power, we can put Mace back where he belongs, with Dooku.



If only Lucas was the entirety of the franchise - EU and all, and not someone who had originally donned himself the top of authority of his empire, only to sell that empire later - revoking his say on these matters. You would have a point if the films didn't have a novel to explain context : Mace's parity with Sidious is a special ability he uses to Syphon the Sith lords power an nothing more. The bigger picture - which you fail to grasp - points to Mace being either on/or slightly below Dooku's level. This is even true in canon - Maul is hardly scared of Windu and he's about even with Talzin off Dathomir.



What does this mean?

RealistRacism

BestDebaterEver
Also, I'm honestly not too privy to Mace's journey to mastering Vaapad but from what I can glean: Shatterpoint was 22BBY. Dark Rendezvous (where Yoda muses Mace might be a match for Dooku on even ground) and the Obsession comic (where Mace and Dooku skirmish fairly evenly) both happen in 19BBY. So it does seem likely to me that somewhere in that three year gap Mace caught up to Dooku in a big way, despite Dooku being introduced to "realms of power beyond his most wild fantasies" etc by Sidious.

BestDebaterEver

RealistRacism

BestDebaterEver
Why should I take something literally that is directly contradicted by the primary source material on several counts?

Zigg
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver

So, pre-TPM Dooku turns out to be a mega-prodigy. The best Yoda had ever trained etc. However, Mace comes along and quickly catches up to Dooku (despite being his junior by three decades?). As is pointed out, the only people to ever eclipse Dooku in lightsaber combat were Yoda and Windu. And Windu has similar quotes: the only people ever to match him were Yoda and Dooku.


Mostly good faith. On problem here :

The quote "best Jedi swordsman and only eclipsed by Yoda and Windu" - refers to Dooku as a Jedi. Meaning we look no further for TMP for him. This same standard however, doesn't apply to Mace. Who's is a Jedi up until his death in Revenge.



No idea either. Good faith.




Good faith. And accurate.




Good Faith. A good rationalisation of how Mace was able to compete with Sidious. A spike of power when he realised Sidious was pulling the strings may have unlocked his full potential, but the other argument as that this was situational amp and by the wording of the novel, applies to a one time fight with Sidious. Another thing : **** Gillard. I'll explain why his statements are unhelpful and how we're not technically bound by them later.

All in all, this is a top tier explanation for the Mace conundrum as oppose to ought statements made by Darth Thor.

juggernaut74
Dooku wins.

RealistRacism
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Why should I take something literally that is directly contradicted by the primary source material on several counts?
Fair enough. But you take the latter part of the quote seriously, correct?

BestDebaterEver
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Fair enough. But you take the latter part of the quote seriously, correct? I don't take the idea that Yoda and Windu are equals seriously, no.

RealistRacism
No, I mean the part where it states that Mace is the most powerful Jedi to walk the corridors of the Temple. Are we dismissing the entire quote or picking and choosing what’s acceptable?

BestDebaterEver
Originally posted by RealistRacism
No, I mean the part where it states that Mace is the most powerful Jedi to walk the corridors of the Temple. Are we dismissing the entire quote or picking and choosing what’s acceptable? I can buy that TPM Windu > TPM Dooku, if only slightly.

Freedon Nadd
What's with people and Vaapad?

Does that mean Windu gets an insta-win because of Vaapad? Absolutely not. It did not work out so well for him against Palpatine, did it?

For the last time: Vaapad doesn't absorb darksiders' powers. A Vaapad practitioner merely siphons off darksiders' emotions to perform a "Light Side" Force rage.
That is all. Stover just loves to write in ambiguity.
Vaapad is the opposite of Juyo. Whereas Juyo practitioners rely on their own darkmess, Vaapad practitioners rely on their foes'. That's why Sora Bulq ultimately fell to the Dark Side, because she couldn't control the flow of anger and hatred.

Freedon Nadd
("He" for Sora Bulq and "darkness" instead of darkmess)

NewGuy01
Mm, no, I think not. It's pretty well established that Vaapad channels the inner darkness of the wielder as well, and it's not unusual for Sith to feed on their opponent's emotions either.

TheIndyJedi
Mace Windu as of TPM was stated to be just as powerful as Yoda. I don't see how Dooku wins against any version of Mace nevermind ROTS.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It did not work out so well for him against Palpatine, did it?




It didnt?



Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

For the last time: Vaapad doesn't absorb darksiders' powers. A Vaapad practitioner merely siphons off darksiders' emotions to perform a "Light Side" Force rage.



Thats like pretty useful.

Like the kind of useful that would take someone who is already Dooku level from the start, and then jump them up to Sidious level when facing a powerful darksider.

Freedon Nadd
I never said who wins in this thread. All I said is that Vaapad is not an argument to say that Windu wins.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mm, no, I think not. It's pretty well established that Vaapad channels the inner darkness of the wielder as well, and it's not unusual for Sith to feed on their opponent's emotions either.

Did I say they can't?

I said is that Vaapad practitioners are Lightsiders absorbing their foes' darkness to achieve Force rage. As about the other part you have mentioned. Vaapad practitioners channeling their own "darkness" means when practitioners tame their own darkness as they give in their foes' Dark Side emotions.



You imply Vaapad users use their own darkness(as well), which is evidently wrong. If what you say is true: then Vaapad is no different from Juyo.
But that's why Windu was said to have invented a new form. He created a method of siphoning off your foes' darkness to achieve Force rage without succumbing to the Dark Sids. Then, you get the result when Vaapad users embrace their own darkness. The form devolves into Juyo.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.