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On neutral ground?

Vaylin.

Cin Drallig

Aurra Sing

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Vaylin.

Which Character is more on level with Caedus?

Dooku or Sheev?

Dooku.

He's still > Dooku by a fair amount.

Yoda is a good match for Caedus tbh.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku.

He's still > Dooku by a fair amount.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Yoda is a good match for Caedus tbh. Caedus would get creamed.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku.

He's still > Dooku by a fair amount.

Interesting that you would say that.


He's closer to Dooku than Sheev, but still beyond Dooku by a fair amount. That would mean you think there is a vast gap between the two - sheev and the Count. Probable.

But what exactly does he have that puts him a fair amount above Dooku in power and skill?

Do you see Dooku faltering in Caedus' matches to a worse extent; against the Katarn strike team, Aurra Sing or Luke?

Dooku certainly handled AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan better than Caedus handled the strike team, but both of them still won. Besides, I have Kyle > AotC Anakin and the B-team > AotC Obi-Wan.

He never handled both at once though, Caedus actively demolished the strike team 4 on 1 while they were coordinating, something Kenobi and Anakin failed miserably at.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Caedus would get creamed.

Hardly.

And lol at Dooku standing a chance against Caedus.

Arcann, probably.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
And lol at Dooku standing a chance against Caedus.

Probably beats him on neutral ground to be fair.

I don't see Dooku having his bladework matched by Kyle (a ginn leveller) and three initiates. As far as pure skill goes he dies in a duelling match, although he does have edges in his pain amplifying abilties and shatter points, so all is not hopeless.

The difference is that Dooku probably could amputate Kyle in a one on one, whereas Jacen could not.

Originally posted by Zigg
Probably beats him on neutral ground to be fair.

I don't see Dooku having his beadwork matched by Kyle (a ginn leveller) and three initiates. As far as pure skill goes he dies in a duelling match, although he does have edges in his pain amplifying abilties and shatter points, so all is not hopeless.

The difference is that Dooku probably could amputate Kyle in a one on one, whereas the latter could not.

Kyle would have got his limb sliced off, you're desperate attempts to defend him and lowball Caedus aren't working man. Kyle was backed up by a team who saved him from getting his leg sliced off. And that was injured Caedus. As for Kyle being Ginn level he's above that lol.

Oh yeah and we're ignoring the fact that Caedus is obviously the superior force user.

Pre-RotS revelation Mace Windu.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Pre-RotS revelation Mace Windu.

This Mace is below Dooku?

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
He never handled both at once though, Caedus actively demolished the strike team 4 on 1 while they were coordinating, something Kenobi and Anakin failed miserably at.



Hardly. Well, Yoda seems to overpower him in both the Force and in Dueling.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Well, Yoda seems to overpower him in both the Force and in Dueling.

I can definitely see Yoda winning though I think Caedus takes a slim majority but arguing he creams him is to far.

Originally posted by Zigg
This Mace is below Dooku? Probably in the middle of Dooku and Yoda somewhere.

Yoda does cream him though.

@DC77

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yoda does cream him though.

@DC77

Uh, no he doesn't.

Yoda > Caedus.

Just accept it.

I believe Luke was immensely powerful (about twice as powerful as Darth Vader) at the time he fought Caedus (although obviously he was holding back and trying to protect Ben), and that Caedus was dismembered and wounded in other ways that hindered him and offset how powerful he became by the time he fought Jaina; as a result, we never got to truly see how powerful he was in combat (since he obviously grew stronger after his fight against Kyle), but his discussion with Lumiya establishes him as > Vader.

Yoda wrecks Caedus, lmao.

Originally posted by TheStrangeMan
Yoda wrecks Caedus, lmao. Originally posted by Geistalt
Yoda > Caedus.

Just accept it.

I believe Luke was immensely powerful (about twice as powerful as Darth Vader) at the time he fought Caedus (although obviously he was holding back and trying to protect Ben), and that Caedus was dismembered and wounded in other ways that hindered him and offset how powerful he became by the time he fought Jaina; as a result, we never got to truly see how powerful he was in combat (since he obviously grew stronger after his fight against Kyle), but his discussion with Lumiya establishes him as > Vader.

So opinions on a public forum are banned. No explicit evidence says Yoda>Caedus. I'm entitled to an opinion.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Kyle would have got his limb sliced off you're desperate attempts to defend him and lowball Caedus aren't working man. Kyle was backed up by a team who saved him from getting his leg sliced off.

Unfortunately Kyle facing Jacen one-on-one and allowing his leg to get sliced off never occurred in any fictional work. So I hope you don't mind if we dispose of your fanficiton to discuss the actual manga. All it takes for Kyle to match or exceed Jacen in sabers (Caedus noted their coordination was threatening to him and chose to pick apart the fodder with his force powers) was a team of nobodies. I doubt that said team of nobodies could match Dooku in any confined contest



* a mostly healed Caedus who can transfer his pain into power




Ought assumption. They're around the same age yet Ginn was well respected in a better epoch for the Jedi. NJO is merely the remanent era so it's unlikely that the council masters match the PT heroes, given that they're not particularly well established.



Esoterically speaking, yes. In terms of pure force power, maybe. But when it comes to offensive power against other strong duellists, dooku takes the cake - disposing of Kenobi while holding off Anakin.

If we look at the actual material we realise that if not for the team Kyle would have lost his leg in ten seconds without difficulty a fact that you've repeatedly ignored and resorted to farfetched conclusions like the idea that Kyle let himself be put in that situation because the team were coordinating. Your actual beliefs have no impact on what actually happened, Kyle has no reason to deliberately put himself in that situation and the argument that "He knew they had his back" is supported by nothing but your word. Simply because they coordinated well doesn't mean they put themselves in dangerous positions for no reason. Again backed up by nothing. Jacen was not beaten by the team in sabers or exceeded he simply notes that the team coordinating and defending each other as well as attacking simultaneously is a disadvantage for him, not that he's being outmatched. Him resorting to the force proves what exactly, he's simply using his advantages to dispose of them.



Even though the text explicitly notes he had yet to recover. His injuries were in no way as life threatening as when he could barely stand but they still existed and were significant.



Kyle has better feats and accolades lol.



Ragdolling Jaina Solo after having his arm chopped off, his kneecap shattered, his ankle crushed, his shoulder rendered useless by a gunshot wound, being stabbed in the gut and several other injuries. Not to mention the fact that Caedus is stated to be even more powerful than Vader someone who holds parity to and can ragdoll Starkiller who's feats absolutely shit on Dooku's.

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Is this the Fanfiction Forum or the Versus Forum?

Originally posted by TheStrangeMan
Is this the Fanfiction Forum or the Versus Forum?

Versus and everything I posted is true not fanfiction.

Originally posted by CactusJoe
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Lol.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Versus and everything I posted is true not fanfiction.

Are you sure, my friend?

Originally posted by TheStrangeMan
Are you sure, my friend?

You can't be serious, everything I posted in regards to Jacen's feats is true.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
You can't be serious, everything I posted in regards to Jacen's feats is true.

Strange.

Dooku vs Jacen would be a good fight. Caedus prolly wins but it'd be interesting nevertheless.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
If we look at the actual material we realise that if not for the team Kyle would have lost his leg in ten seconds without difficulty a fact that you've repeatedly ignored and resorted to farfetched conclusions like the idea that Kyle let himself be put in that situation because the team were coordinating. Your actual beliefs have no impact on what actually happened, Kyle has no reason to deliberately put himself in that situation and the argument that "He knew they had his back" is supported by nothing but your word. Simply because they coordinated well doesn't mean they put themselves in dangerous positions for no reason. Again backed up by nothing.

It does mean he can let himself be put in more "dangerous" situations if he has a force wielding team behind his back. The amount of options available to them increases as every single team member can opt for a more offensive combat style with less risk of actually being hit. This is whole point of fighting as team - teamwork. Which means that every jedi fighting plays a role making their strike unit better than any individual fighter of the ground. Why wouldn't Kyle make more risky manoeuvres if the role of the team is to cover each others backs? It makes perfect sense for him to do so if they want to mount a better offence. It's like letting the goal keeper save the football when you're playing up front. Only her Kyle can sense his team, their feelings, positions and actions through the force and preempt when they're going to happen. Everything here is totally sound from a logical perspective. Backed up by an understanding of team functionality , various descriptions of the force from sourcebooks, novels, the first Star Wars film and by the fact that Kyle - according to Caedus - is a threat to him. If we have canon battle where Jaecn takes of Kyle's leg in a lone duel then kudos to you. But until you find that match take your L.

Obviously you're too emotionally invested in Caedus to admit your wrong here - because if Jacen isn't someone who can just dispose of Kyle instantly in a duel it means your entire opinion of him is flipped on it's head. But that isn't my problem. It just means you have a poor reading of the canon and choose not to believe Jacen when he calls Kyle a threat. Even though everything suggests he is.




So you basically admit Jacen is at a disadvantage in sabers against Kyle and his three initiates and opted to use the Force to pick them off one at a time. Concession accepted.



They were apparently significant enough to only lament them at the tail end of the fight. So barely significant. Nothing he shouldn't be able to amp himself off either.



There is no common dominator in their feats and Ginn is better hyped and from a better time with more saber masters. You're lucky for me to be comparing them really.



I note the injuries and the exhaustion, but heres's the thing. He failed to rag doll Jaina. She broke her momentum - something Obi Wan couldn't do vs Dooku. Jaina also admits her self weaker than every master of the order at the time. I have no reason to disagree with her on this note either. Ultimately, he couldn't rag doll Katarn.



First of all, novel blurbs are subjective. Second of all, being stronger than Vader in the force is no longer as impressive as it were a year ago. This given the extreme condition Starkiller was in when he fought and the fact that Vader has a plethora of feature limitations when it comes Force power in Legends - He's failed to shield himself from explosions that weren't astronomical in yield. He also failed to stop his own tie fighter flying off with TK. So this is someone who doesn't have parity to SK on neutral ground, and really has not much to ride home about.

Hmm.

Darth Malgus; Darth Thanaton; Exar Kun; Darth Jadus; Darth Traya; Darth Tenebrous; Arcann; Darth Malak; Ulic Qel-Droma; Darth Marr; Hero of Tython; Barsen'thor III; Emperor's Wrath; Darth Vader; Mace Windu; Darth Zannah; Darth Wyyrlok III; Darth Krayt; Tulak Hord; Marka Ragnos - to name some.

Some will/can defeat Darth Caedus. Some will put up a fight.

Who is "Ginn" ?

The fact remains though that this "Dangerous position" was just attempting to kick him, something that's done often in SW duels and Caedus easily dodged it and would have taken his leg off if not for Kyle's teammate stopping him, face it Kyle is nothing but fodder to Jacen. Also the kick brought them nowhere it was hardly anything that helped. You're grasping at straws saying that he put himself in a dangerous position by simply kicking and that it got them an advantage in anyway.



So being saved in the first ten seconds of a duel where he launches three attacks all of which are negated and would have got his leg chopped off if not for his teammate means he's comparable and I have reading comprehension issues when the text outright states that he was "Spared an amputation" it could not be any clearer, you're ignoring it for the sake of lowballing. Nothing indicates comparability except Jacen's word which is immediately contradicted during the fight.



Your twisting my words, Jacen says them coordinating is bad for him, it is, doesn't mean he's outmatched in raw sabers and him falling back on the force was simply him fighting smart, doesn't mean he couldn't have taken them in sabers.



"He still hadn't recovered from his duel with Luke" is a general statement not just applicable to the end of the fight, he was injured. Nothing suggests he was amplified except your word, his ability to feed off pain doesn't mean he's not hindered especially when the text notes he is.



He didn't ragdoll her quite as effectively as Dooku did but at least it wasn't a surprise tactic and he actually ripped through her defences properly and can, unlike Dooku with Kenobi. A non distracted Kenobi wouldn't be ragdolled by Dooku, Jaina was injured by a massively injured Caedus who was one armed and could barely stand. Caedus feat is outright better regardless of Kenobi>Jaina considering the circumstances under both . So an injured Caedus couldn't ragdoll Kyle in the heat of battling 3 other people at the same time. Great lowballing on your part.



If I remember correctly the tie fighter feat had context, as for Vader not having parity to Galan he absolutely does. Starkiller was exhausted yes so it's fair to assume he's>TFU 2 Vader however this does not make him better than Vader as this was a massively pre prime Vader. Vader shares parity with Starkiller, regardless of the nonsense.

Peak Kenobi

Didn't finish our debate thanks to a ban

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
The fact remains though that this "Dangerous position" was just attempting to kick him, something that's done often in SW duels and Caedus easily dodged


1 - The dodge was not so easy as Caedus couldn't clear the kick and got scrapped on the cheek. Good for Katarn. Bad for Caedus.

2 - The point is that if Katarn allows his team mates to cover him - as the leader of the group and their most skilled fighter - he can continue an assault without concern about parrying. Which is good for Katarn. Bad for Caedus.

3 - The text here is written from Jacen's perspective. So if there was real danger of Kyle actually loosing a leg and Kolir's interception being merely a lucky save then it would impossible to tell as he doesn't share Katarns thoughts. But even with Jacen's thoughts dictating the story we know the spared amputation is the result of good team co-ordination.




Given everything noted above... citing the words spared amputaition on it's own doesn't cut it. You need the words a block he couldn't make or was in no position to make thrown in the mix. I've already noted why it is advantageous for Katarn to let his teams mates the handle defensive. Because it means he can mount a much more effective offence while the blocking is being done for him. To fit your narrative - the fan fiction of a deluded fanboy - you do just to have a single duel between Katarn and Caedus with the latter losing his leg. Seen as you don't have that I'm forced to side with "he's a threat" being cardinal comparison between the two. The kind of threat he'd want to take out with a dirty tactic - feinting for a force push but instead slamming his back with an accelerating speeder.

As I've thoroughly explained why Katarn isn't getting his leg taken of in the most literal sense. I'd also like to point out from thematic standpoint it makes no sense to praise Katarn as Jacen's threat then have him lose a leg in 15 seconds. But seen as that isn't canon we're all fine.

Finally... the mere fact that he was intercepted by a Jedi knight - who has no thematic relevance nor feats - suggests that Katarn could have done it himself. The other alternative is we relegate Kyle below every single PT council master and Aurra Sing for not being able to make a block that some random fodder could in the midst of combat. Lest we forget your premise. Jacen = Yoda and Sidious. Sidious and Yoda can't even be perceived by some of the best Jedi Masters in history. Yet Caedus gets intercepted by a garden variety Knight?



It probably does tbh. Most duel-centric sith lords take immense gratification in a physical victory over their opponents. Such as Dooku, Maul and even Sidious, the latter of whom thought lightsabers were inane but kept his merely to humiliate Jedi with their lauded weapon of choice. Jacen shares the arrogance of the three mentioned and if he thought he could win a duel against Katarn's team we'd see said event unfold. We don't of course and the pure lightsaber portion of the fight is summarised from two perspectives :



The perspective of a third person onlooker - The two sides are even




The antagonists first person pov - I'm in danger

It's really no wonder why Jacen decided to switch to force powers shortly after this. Kyle being a threat to Jacen on his own and then having back up to block his attacks really puts the fight and Jacen's saber skills in to perspective - no where near Sidious or yoda and probably below Grievous. Yes that's right. Grievous wouldn't have problems against such a team.

-

Kenobi was distracted? by what exactly, Dooku? Kenobi and Janina re essentially in the same position here. Both fail to block the initial force grip. Which proves Jaina was also not actively defending herself. The difference. Jaina stops her momentum while she's hurled in the direction of an incinerator. Kenobi can not and get's knocked out by an impact that doesn't even hit his head. So the feat is different in that Dooku actually takes out a target that is helpless to rebuke him. While Caedus fails to take out, to your own admittance, a less powerful target. His injuries are notable. But then we have to mentioned Dooku's circumstances. He was fighting Anankin and being significantly drained while doing so.






I disagree. The bulk of the battle is written from Caedus' point of view, and it's only until Valin redirects a blaster bolt towards him and he struggles to fend of the blows from that one enraged Jedi Knight, the he makes an excuse regarding injuries - when things are looking really bad for him. If it was of critical importance to the fights outcome it would have been mentioned sooner, perhaps before the fight or during the pure saber portion in which Kyle's team had the edge. It would have also been more descript in detail. As it stands, a "fresh"Caedus wouldn't be doing much better if at all. And force powers are known to circumvent injuries, Jacen being a master of that art. So it's basically a complete non factor. And a clutch desperate fanboys such as yourself hold to because Jacen struggles against probably the worst Strike team ever sent to face the reigning sith lord of the time. Deal with it.





Lol. The three Jedi at the time weren't even attacking Caedus. So that does mean Jacen can't ragodoll Katarn in any capacity. The mere fact you have to revere their significance - three completely featless Jedi - is an utter embarrassment to your one man cause. But if this is your final defence.. so be it. Katarn can't be rag dolled because 3 random Jedi are standing next to him. While Dooku rag dolls Kenobi while facing Anakin.

WHEN ARE WE CAV’ING ZIGGY


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I have a CAV post to write, and an essay so a debate I'd long since forgotten about is not at the top of my priority list, I'll respond later.

No need for anything big, pal. Just find me the book where Jacen actually beats Katarn in sabers. My element doesn't accept gloss editions though.

Mace Windu, Revan, Krayt and Anakin

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Peak Kenobi
He would get stomped