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Seems like nearly everyone agrees that the 'Legends-only' default rule should at least include films I-VI + their respective novelizations. Now it's just a matter of determining whether or not TCW and its corresponding works(namely SoD and DD) should also be included under the Legends umbrella we are establishing here.

Please give a 'yes' or 'no' vote and state your reasoning why. After it seems like enough people have had the opportunity to weigh in, the votes will be tallied and the forum rule will be created.

Serious responses only, please. Sock/troll votes will NOT be counted unless your actual identity is disclosed(if not in the thread itself, then via PM to me.)

You should rename the title "TCW referendum"

And I vote to LEAVE.

No and it's simple, we already have material that details the Clone Wars from before TCW was even put forth, these including the various games, novels, comics, micro series and so forth. TCW is clearly in a separate timeline that makes more sense for the current canon than the old one.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
No and it's simple, we already have material that details the Clone Wars from before TCW was even put forth, these including the various games, novels, comics, micro series and so forth. TCW is clearly in a separate timeline that makes more sense for the current canon than the old one.

TCW + the movies ( including the TCW movie ) + the movie novelizations ( including the TCW movie novelization ) + SoD + all other Legends materials.

Essentially, everything made BEFORE the DIsney buyout should be accepted as the default. Nothing made AFTER.

So if we deem TCW usable, how will its forthcoming season factor-into the equation?

Also, I do believe SoD was published after Disney purchased the franchise -- in fact, it might even be the first material produced under the new canon.

It's forthcoming season should be included imo.

Didn't know that. Should still include it under the default imo

Everything produced prior to the Disney buyout + SoD + new season of TCW + SWTOR content made after Disney buyout.

Stay, since it was created under George Lucas himself. Including the movies which are proper Disney canon, yet excluding TCW would seem like hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
Everything produced prior to the Disney buyout + SoD + new season of TCW + SWTOR content made after Disney buyout. If the whole of TCW + SoD are included, then Dark Disciple should be included as well, imo, as it is also a direct tie-in to the show.

And what about the unreleased/unfinished TCW episodes? Weren't all of those blanketed as canon to TCW as well?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Stay, since it was created under George Lucas himself. Including the movies which are proper Disney canon, yet excluding TCW would seem like hypocrisy. So that's 3 FOR keeping TCW, and 2 AGAINST.

Yes. It was part of the Legends universe before and they even created EU material around it. TCW material released after the Legends/Canon split should not be treated as part of Legends however.

So basically you think S01-S06 of TCW(along with TCW film) should fall under the Legends umbrella, but no other TCW material should(ie. no SoD, no DD, no S07)..?

I'd like an actual reason as to why it should other than "it was in Legends before". It being brought into Disney Canon should mean that it shouldn't be considered Legends, the fact that it also had its own Canon instead of C-canon(which is where everything else goes) seems like to me a placeholder before it was pulled into it.

Even then, it also being with the movies it clearly isn't following what C-canon put forth prior. This clearly was some sort of retcon if you will, or shifting positions of material.

I agree with Zenwolf. It was canon to both universes before, it's canon to both now.

Who are we to decide what should be Legends and what isn't based on little gripes we have? We are mere apprentices in the ways of the force, while they are Lords.

I'm not sure you and Zenwolf agree.

Honestly as much as I like it no it shouldn't. Power scaling in that show and general power consistency are non existent.

I mean if we take it as usable we should now assume Dooku can lose to 30 pirates ect. It works much better with the new canon IMO.

I mean it's too grounded.

We have another show to cover the time between AOTC and ROTS. Whatever just my thoughts.

Yes, cause Maul wank.

Jokes aside yes it should be, it was created before Disney took over and Lucas himself had a hand in it.

Bad things happen when Lucas noses in Star Wars.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Yes, cause Maul wank.

Jokes aside yes it should be, it was created before Disney took over and Lucas himself had a hand in it.

Which means it's only following his POV, which given he only considers the movies....which means then it really can't fall under Legends no matter how you look at it. That also said is why it works better for Disney only because there it's a clean slate.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which means it's only following his POV, which given he only considers the movies....which means then it really can't fall under Legends no matter how you look at it. That also said is why it works better for Disney only because there it's a clean slate. The movies don't count as Legends?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The movies don't count as Legends?

They do, they are everything within the SWU, they are the foundation of the whole universe. TCW is not, it's a byproduct.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'd like an actual reason as to why it should other than "it was in Legends before". It being brought into Disney Canon should mean that it shouldn't be considered Legends, the fact that it also had its own Canon instead of C-canon(which is where everything else goes) seems like to me a placeholder before it was pulled into it.



Movies shouldn't be canon to Legends either.

Originally posted by ares834


Movies shouldn't be canon to Legends either.

No, they should, they hold the whole universe together.

Originally posted by Galan007
So basically you think S01-S06 of TCW(along with TCW film) should fall under the Legends umbrella, but no other TCW material should(ie. no SoD, no DD, no S07)..?

Sorta. There is other TCW material that should be counted as well such as The Clone Wars comics. Basically, I think everything that was considered canon before Disney officially said that the EU was non-canon should be considered canon to Legends. So yes, TCW S1 through 6 should be considered canon but not SoD, DD, or S7.

Yeah, the films are a must, imo. They are the linchpin of the entire mythos -- the whole of Legends-proper revolves around them.

Originally posted by ares834
Sorta. There is other TCW material that should be counted as well such as The Clone Wars comics. Basically, I think everything that was considered canon before Disney officially said that the EU was non-canon should be considered canon to Legends. So yes, TCW S1 through 6 should be considered canon but not SoD, DD, or S7. I can see the logic there.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
They do, they are everything within the SWU, they are the foundation of the whole universe. TCW is not, it's a byproduct. A byproduct Lucas had a hand in creating that has been considered to be canon and legends just like the movies.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
A byproduct Lucas had a hand in creating that has been considered to be canon and legends just like the movies.

Except TCW cannot fit into Legends, it fits better with the current Canon. I mean it had its own Canon instead of being branded C-canon, so it's clearly not following any material that was written before. Sure it might take little bits and pieces from Legends, but timeline wise/story and character wise it doesn't work.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except TCW cannot fit into Legends, it fits better with the current Canon. I mean it had its own Canon instead of being branded C-canon, so it's clearly not following any material that was written before. Sure it might take little bits and pieces from Legends, but timeline wise/story and character wise it doesn't work. Seemed to fit pretty neatly so far. And the "can't exist" reasons also seem to apply to the films as well.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Seemed to fit pretty neatly so far. And the "can't exist" reasons also seem to apply to the films as well.

Yes, it fits nicely in the current canon. Legends? Not so much, the timeline is all screwy and some characters are really different, some characters that appear in TCW cannot possibly fit into the other timeline, certain events cannot happen, so on and so forth.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yes, it fits nicely in the current canon. Legends? Not so much, the timeline is all screwy and some characters are really different, some characters that appear in TCW cannot possibly fit into the other timeline, certain events cannot happen, so on and so forth. What would you say is the straw that broke the camel's back for you?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
What would you say is the straw that broke the camel's back for you?

The whole series? I'm not saying I dislike the series, I really do like it. But I don't see how anyone can justify it being in the same timeline as the CWMMP and overall C-canon. It just can't be.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The whole series? I'm not saying I dislike the series, I really do like it. But I don't see how anyone can justify it being in the same timeline as the CWMMP and overall C-canon. It just can't be. The battles in there didn't have Ahsoka in them, and she wasn't important to the actual full scope of the war effort. The Mandalorians had Chee already try and explain them and they had a book to further that.

Anakin being a Jedi Knight was retconned though. Maul wasn't really important as well to what has been covered or war efforts. Among other things. Brainchips tried to offer an easier to swallow reason why they turned so easily.

Also
Higher level of canon overrides the parts that don't line up perfectly

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The battles in there didn't have Ahsoka in them, and she wasn't important to the actual full scope of the war effort. The Mandalorians had Chee already try and explain them and they had a book to further that.

Anakin being a Jedi Knight was retconned though. Maul wasn't really important as well to what has been covered or war efforts. Among other things. Brainchips tried to offer an easier to swallow reason why they turned so easily.

Also
Higher level of canon overrides the parts that don't line up perfectly

That's not helping anything, they were still around and as far as I know also. TCW begins what...6 months or so after AOTC? So there's another issue, Ahsoka being involved throws a giant monkey wrench into what was previously established as well. Maul basically the same thing.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were basically together the whole way through within the CWMMP and she was never around when she's suppose to be Anakin's apprentice. Durge doesn't even appear and he was around both when Anakin was an apprentice and later as a Knight, Ventress didn't go all bounty hunter and all that, Sing was more than just a bounty hunter but a former Jedi Padawan.

Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't fight Dooku multiple times over the course of the CWMMP, among other things. The Mandalorians weren't pacifist pansies.

The 501st is also another issue, Anakin wasn't incharge of that Legion, from what I remember until he became Darth Vader. Before that, the 501st was just a Legion that seemed to change Generals from Mundi to Secura and they went to various planets and the like. Anakin and Obi-Wan seemed more to be of the 212th Clone Attack Battalion.

The brainchips are honestly not needed and frankly I found those kinda dumb, but they're Canon so I'll bite the bullet there.

You know what though? I'm done, apparently I can't see what everyone else sees. If you guys can somehow justify all of this into one timeline and not see it as a large mess? Then good on you, I can't and apparently I can't convince anyone else of it either.

I'm also for keeping everything before Disney acquired the rights as part of Legends.

So like ares said- Seasons 1-6 of TCW and the movie would be Legends, but not the stuff that came out afterward.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
That's not helping anything, they were still around and as far as I know also. TCW begins what...6 months or so after AOTC? So there's another issue, Ahsoka being involved throws a giant monkey wrench into what was previously established as well. Maul basically the same thing.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were basically together the whole way through within the CWMMP and she was never around when she's suppose to be Anakin's apprentice. Durge doesn't even appear and he was around both when Anakin was an apprentice and later as a Knight, Ventress didn't go all bounty hunter and all that, Sing was more than just a bounty hunter but a former Jedi Padawan.

Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't fight Dooku multiple times over the course of the CWMMP, among other things. The Mandalorians weren't pacifist pansies.

The 501st is also another issue, Anakin wasn't incharge of that Legion, from what I remember until he became Darth Vader. Before that, the 501st was just a Legion that seemed to change Generals from Mundi to Secura and they went to various planets and the like. Anakin and Obi-Wan seemed more to be of the 212th Clone Attack Battalion.

The brainchips are honestly not needed and frankly I found those kinda dumb, but they're Canon so I'll bite the bullet there.

You know what though? I'm done, apparently I can't see what everyone else sees. If you guys can somehow justify all of this into one timeline and not see it as a large mess? Then good on you, I can't and apparently I can't convince anyone else of it either. Or...

Everything that was established before wasn't a cohesive day to day schedule of events and it leaves room for things to happen in-between those lapses of time. IE Dooku fights and Ventress being an actual character with a character arc.

Ahsoka might be a tuffy to swallow, but it isn't impossible that a padawan that didn't see every battle existed. She was retconned into existing, she wasn't retroactively placed into previous events. She wasn't even really important in TCW if you think about how much she contributed to major battles.
Even TCW wasn't a fully cohesive story that excludes anything else from happening as well, IE Durge.


Unless something directly contradicts (in that case T-Canon wins), you just fit things in where ever they could fall. That's how simple it is.
It also introduced the Ones, and expanded on how exactly Palpatine rose to power.

Not sure about the 501st though not a massive change however that throws everything into question. Sing being a bounty hunter and then becoming skilled enough to beat up Jacen a bit is a lot funnier however.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Or...

Everything that was established before wasn't a cohesive day to day schedule of events and it leaves room for things to happen in-between those lapses of time. IE Dooku fights and Ventress being an actual character with a character arc.

Ahsoka might be a tuffy to swallow, but it isn't impossible that a padawan that didn't see every battle existed. She was retconned into existing, she wasn't retroactively placed into previous events. She wasn't even really important in TCW if you think about how much she contributed to major battles.
Even TCW wasn't a fully cohesive story that excludes anything else from happening as well, IE Durge.


Unless something directly contradicts (in that case T-Canon wins), you just fit things in where ever they could fall. That's how simple it is.
It also introduced the Ones, and expanded on how exactly Palpatine rose to power.

Not sure about the 501st though not a massive change however that throws everything into question. Sing being a bounty hunter and then becoming skilled enough to beat up Jacen a bit is a lot funnier however.

I'm not saying it was day to day, but even still there's issues over the timeline. But I'm done here, if the rule is allowed then whatever. I'm more GCW era anyway, I just don't see TCW on the whole as being both Canons.

Originally posted by Galan007
If the whole of TCW + SoD are included, then Dark Disciple should be included as well, imo, as it is also a direct tie-in to the show.

And what about the unreleased/unfinished TCW episodes? Weren't all of those blanketed as canon to TCW as well?

So that's 3 FOR keeping TCW, and 2 AGAINST.

Eh. My problem with having DD apart of it is that it contradicts way more Legends material then it adds. I guess you could say the same about Clone Wars, but a lot of the events that TCW retcons can fit in around those events rather then be thrown away entirely. Not so with most material including Vos.

Originally posted by ares834
Sorta. There is other TCW material that should be counted as well such as The Clone Wars comics. Basically, I think everything that was considered canon before Disney officially said that the EU was non-canon should be considered canon to Legends. So yes, TCW S1 through 6 should be considered canon but not SoD, DD, or S7.

Yes include TCW. And include SOD and DD.

I don't agree with DD tbh.

If we're going to include TCW under the Legends default here, then I like the idea of only including the material that was released before Disney restructured canonicity.

So TCW S01-S06 + the film would be usable(as would any TCW-based material released during this time.) But works that were published after the reorganization would NOT be usable. So no SoD, DD, or TCW S07. I feel like that's fair, and also makes things a bit simpler for the purposes of these discussions.

I agree with Galan.

^ Pretty sure the script for DD was written before the Disney reorganization as well.

In cases like this, it's probably best to look at when the material was actually published/released(because that's what truly matters), in which case both SoD and DD fall exclusively under Disney canon. /shrug

But I'm open to opinions.

Yeh, probably. Was more a point of how hilariously ****ed anyone who actually tries to make sense of everything via an amalgamation of the old and new rules is mmm

Shaak Ti novel?

Escape from Dagu

No, it should not. It has irreconcilable contradictions with the old material and the powerscaling is so retarded it opens the door to vehement lowballing and is just generally nonsense.

So no Disney Canon stuff at all, means no bad ass Ashsoka/Old Ben and none of the beastly Vader vs At-At and X-Wing Tk Feats... Plus we never really see him as a truly bad ass pilot.

On the plus side no Old Maul tripping over himself. And he never gets taken out by Kenobi.

although Rebels Maul did have a couple of nice feats. But small ones tbh

Still meh, think this will mostly come down to KOTOR era vs others.


Honestly I think KOTOR is the main reason everyone still sticks to Legends here. Am looking forward to Canon exploring that era, so it can be discussed... you know...canonically.

Old Master Maul has really great feats

If you accept TCW you accept Grievous being driven back by Ahsoka & beaten by Gungans. You have to accept Shaak Ti was outran by a clone trooper. You have to accept that Maul was disarmed by Pre Vizla. You have to accept that Dooku dies to pirates

And then

You have to accept that Grievous butchers Durge and Asajj Ventress and puts up a fight against Mace Windu. Shaak Ti takes full control of Felucia. You have to accept that Maul still sucks but is better than his Canon version. And Dooku comes close to soloing Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

And you have to MeSh ThEm ToGeThEr 0.o

Filoni said that Grievous was toying with Ahsoka, but that Dooku showing is hilarious, as was Filoni's rationale behind it. Ti and Maul do just suck that hard though.

in season 5 she briefly drives him back which honestly made me choke on thin bastard air

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Old Master Maul has really great feats

There are a couple... Mainly Non-Combat related ones.


Originally posted by CuckedCurry
If you accept TCW you accept Grievous being driven back by Ahsoka & beaten by Gungans. You have to accept Shaak Ti was outran by a clone trooper. You have to accept that Maul was disarmed by Pre Vizla. You have to accept that Dooku dies to pirates

And then

You have to accept that Grievous butchers Durge and Asajj Ventress and puts up a fight against Mace Windu. Shaak Ti takes full control of Felucia. You have to accept that Maul still sucks but is better than his Canon version. And Dooku comes close to soloing Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

And you have to MeSh ThEm ToGeThEr 0.o


Grievous stomping Kenobi and competing with Maul are out though.

Maul and Grievous both come out worse without SOD tbh.

I hope we accept TCW as Legends so we can keep the feat of Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously unable to telepathically break Cad Bane. Any semi-powerful force wielder from TOR can one-shot those three clowns together with TP, lmfao.

Galan I take it if the thread title involves Canon and Legends characters then the default is Composite.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Galan I take it if the thread title involves Canon and Legends characters then the default is Composite. The default would be exclusively Legends, if not otherwise specified in the OP.

So if a thread involved Thrawn, for example, the default would be his showings from the original Thrawn Trilogy. Not Rebels.

So far it looks like we have 11 FOR keeping TCW, and 5 AGAINST keeping it.

I'll leave this open for a little longer to see if anyone else wants to weigh in.

Great looks like we get to keep all sorts of well structured momento. Such as Anakin being nearly strong enough to support the weight of two people:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-29-2018/nMtxG3.gif

Galen, perhaps the time for democracy is over. As it's failures are being waved like a red flag here. Make the executive decision yourself. I trust you'll do the right thing.

https://i.imgur.com/DpmLsTp.gif

LMFAO

Originally posted by Galan007
The default would be exclusively Legends, if not otherwise specified in the OP.

So if a thread involved Thrawn, for example, the default would be his showings from the original Thrawn Trilogy. Not Rebels.


Meh.

Legends needs to die tbh. Personally think this is a move in the wrong direction. But majority goes I guess.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Canon needs to die tbh.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Meh.

Legends needs to die tbh. Personally think this is a move in the wrong direction. But majority goes I guess. We are just establishing a DEFAULT setting here.

If the thread starter wants canon-only versions of the characters to be used, or even a composite mixture of Legends and canon feats for whatever reason, they are free to specify such in the OP.

But again: if no specifics are given in the OP, then Legends-only(plus or minus TCW) will simply be the assumed versions being used.

Originally posted by Geistalt



Hey im not a fan of a lot of the new Disney Canon stuff myself. But point is it is canon.

But what is Legends? A bunch of material that was never truly canon, as when Lucas was in charge he pretty much ignored it when continuing to produce more official material.

It has been used as inspirational material for creators of canon, which is great. But beyond that, it really has no meaning.

I mean as seen On this thread We cant even agree on what constitutes as Legends. Further we cant agree on what rules that continuity follows. Does the G-Canon, T-Canon, C-Canon tier system still apply to Legends? Many will argue it does not.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Meh.

Legends needs to die tbh. Personally think this is a move in the wrong direction. But majority goes I guess.

I don't think anyone on this forum agrees with you on that tbh. Not least of which is because canon is a million times more limited/boring in what you can debate.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Legends needs to die tbh.

Get off this site maggot

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Get off this site maggot I completely agree.

So you're just a cuck on all fronts Darth Thor?

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Canon is trash compared to Legends, both story wise and power scaling/debating wise and needs to die tbh.

Originally posted by Xiggy
So you're just a cuck on all fronts Darth Thor?


In terms of quality, Legends >> Canon. Legends has it's ugly sides, but it also has some inspirational work, great comics, great games, great stories, great characters and some of the best fictional universe novels. Canon has just been bad across the board, excluding a few exceptions.

The EU has a rich and incredible history to it, whereas Canon is just milking the cash-cows known as Luke, Vader and Kylo...

Originally posted by Beelzebub
I don't think anyone on this forum agrees with you on that tbh. Not least of which is because canon is a million times more limited/boring in what you can debate.


Which is why I suggested we keep it composite.

Legends on its own just simply isnt Canon.

I think the main issue here is the whole KOTOR related material only exists in Legends. Once Canon delves into that era Legends will be completely moot.


Originally posted by Xiggy
So you're just a cuck on all fronts Darth Thor?


I just dont get the point in discussing Legends only. Was fine for the days when that was the only EU. And even then it was always composite discussions with Lucas canon.

If we don't include TCW, that limits Thor's SW knowledge to one or two Vader comic series'

The entirety of Canon has been a horrific cringe-fest, without a single piece of moderately compelling/entertaining material.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
If we don't include TCW, that limits Thor's SW knowledge to one or two Vader comic series'


Lol.

Well given its not canon, does it even count as legit Star Wars knowledge? hmm


Originally posted by RealistRacism


The entirety of Canon has been a horrific cringe-fest, without a single piece of moderately compelling/entertaining material.


Actually the comics have been pretty good.

No, they really haven't. I know this the one thing everyone points to as the shining light after Disney's takeover, but I just don't see it.

Again I have more than a few complaints about Disneys handling of Star Wars. But Legends on its own... is just... pointless discussion. IMO of course.

And lets not pretend like everything the old EU put out was simply gold Lol

"The EU wasn't literally 100% perfect, therefore it's just about as bad as Canon." There's already more terrible stuff in the new Canon than there ever was in the EU. A lot of the previous mistakes that were made could be ignored or rationalised away, but now everything must be accepted.

Canon-only debating is also easier, and far less fun.

I never suggested Canon Only debating. Even though that was the previous default setting here.

I would prefer Composite. At least up until the ROTJ era.

Honestly the worst thing Disney Canon has given us is the new Episodic Films. Actually Scratch that. Resistance is the worst thing.

Composite would just make things worse.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Composite would just make things worse.


Thats what it always was though. The Old Eu was never truly canon, and was always composite with Canon in discussions.

Hence the whole G-Canon > T-Canon > C-Canon to deal with all the inconsistencies between Canon and EU.

Will those rules even apply to Legends now, given Legends is basically a Label which means Not Canon.