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S'killer is fresh, bathed, well fed and not being hindered by flashbacks. From TFUII

Vader in his prime incarnation.

Vader wins but with difficulty.

Starkiller stomps

Vader with immense difficulty.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader with immense difficulty.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader with immense difficulty. I SAID IT FIRST!!!

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I SAID IT FIRST!!!

It's just cause I'm better.

Nah seriously I'm no better than you.

Also thanks for motivating me to change my avatar and signature. It really needed it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Nah seriously I'm no better than you.

Also thanks for motivating me to change my avatar and signature. It really needed it. You are welcome bud!

But you are definitely a better debater than me, I just like to leave my opinion and a little reasoning.

Sometimes a little counter too.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
You are welcome bud!

But you are definitely a better debater than me, I just like to leave my opinion and a little reasoning.

Sometimes a little counter too.

I'm not a better debater than you. Granted I don't have a very high opinion of myself but still I just geniunally don't think I'm any better than you. Most of my debating in my eyes has been subpar/mediorce since I got here. Give me one thread where I debated better than you. I'm very much an average debater. We're no different.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'm not a better debater than you. Granted I don't have a very high opinion of myself but still I just geniunally don't think I'm any better than you. Most of my debating in my eyes has been subpar/mediorce since I got here. Give me one thread where I debated better than you. I'm very much an average debater. We're no different. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t657635.html

Remember this little beauty?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t657635.html

Remember this little beauty?

Can hardly be classed as a debate lol. You didn't specifically argue a postion there it was mostly just discussing the validity of Khem's Tulak can solo armies statements (which as far as I'm concerned don't exist as of now because I didn't find any after further inspection eg: checking Ant's RT) which is subjective. I took Khem to be a biased source whereas you didn't and we had a genaral discussion. I wouldn't call it a propere debate where you particularly tried TBH.

QOriginally posted by HP Legend
Can hardly be classed as a debate lol. You didn't specifically argue a postion there it was mostly just discussing the validity of Khem's Tulak can solo armies statements (which as far as I'm concerned don't exist as of now because I didn't find any after further inspection eg: checking Ant's RT) which is subjective. I took Khem to be a biased source whereas you didn't and we had a genaral discussion. I wouldn't call it a propere debate where you particularly tried TBH. But you can tell that you were more skillful than I was in formatting an opinion.

Vader.

Starkiller.

Vader stomps

'Killer.

Starkiller gave your Palpatine some problems. He should take it. Now, whether you disagree with the video-game or not - Vader was stated to be nothing more but a broken shell of his former self by his emperor. Of course - Vader being compared to Starkiller.

That wasn't prime Vader, to be fair.

But what is prime Vader - according to you?

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader with immense difficulty.

If you take a look at Galen, his path is similar to Luke. If I recall correctly, the author said that he is the photoshop negative of Luke.

RotJ Vader is prime Vader.

Originally posted by Meatpants
RotJ Vader is prime Vader.

That does not seem very good for Vader given he got bested by a farm boy and had hard time dealing with Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
That does not seem very good for Vader given he got bested by a farm boy and had hard time dealing with Obi-Wan.

Gloriously normie tier.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Gloriously normie tier.

Or Vader is too overrated.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Or I am incredibly dumb and spew normie tier nonsense.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77


Let us see. A farm boy with less training than Vader gets to be his equal or greater in a short time and beats the pulp out of him. He had hard time besting Kenobi and it was not until the old man let Vader kill him to motivate Luke into becoming a Jedi.
Yes, it must really suck for Vader if Return Of The Jedi is him at his peak of power.

Originally posted by Freedumb Nadd
Let us see. A farm boy with less training than Vader gets to be his equal or greater in a short time and beats the pulp out of him. He had hard time besting Kenobi and it was not until the old man let Vader kill him to motivate Luke into becoming a Jedi.
Yes, it must really suck for Vader if Return Of The Jedi is him at his peak of power.

1.He beat Vader due to the latters conflict they were equals under normal circumstances and Luke's potential is enormous.

2.He was overly caustious lol.

You also seem to be forgetting all his other achievements.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Vader wins but with difficulty.


Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader with immense difficulty.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77


You also seem to be forgetting all his other achievements.

I mean, being honest, Vader doesn't have any baseline feats that compare to even an early game Galen Marek. I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he probably is capable of replicating Marek's feats as of his first mission to Raxus Prime but even that might be giving Vader too much credit according to Ant.

Still, I think he gets solid scaling above the likes of Windu and Kenobi, so I think feats like those are probably within his capabilities to replicate, regardless of if he actually scales off of an early game Marek or not.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
But then he also fought on par with Starkiller Twice, who as per you I’d the Anti-Luke except he received a decade of proper combat training.

He didn't actually. In his first fight with Galen he got ragdolled by him and in the second Starkiller was exhausted to the point he struggled to accomplish feats Anakin could around AotC.

In the first it was hard for both to find an opening in the others defence. And when Starkiller finally did it seemed to be after a bit of Dun Moch.

The ragdolling only came after a Lightsaber slash. Before that neither could ragdoll the other.

As for the second game, Jedi heal pretty quickly, especially so with a loved one in danger. And Vader was specifically noted to be fighting more cautiously than on board the Death Star. Implying he underestimated his Apprentice the first time.

In the second fight it was clear Starkiller could not overpower Vader. He did his best which was a stalemate.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
1.He beat Vader due to the latters conflict they were equals under normal circumstances and Luke's potential is enormous.

2.He was overly caustious lol.

You also seem to be forgetting all his other achievements.

Luke's potential has nothing to do with his victories or losses. He only gets more powerful(Force related) only after the events of The Return Of The Jedi.
Yes, I said they were equals. The farm boy with tiny training compared to Vader's gets to be his equal and then Force rages through his defenses like Anakin did to Dooku. Difference being that Dooku was an old **** and Vader had artificial limbs which gave him a significant amount of physical strength to stand his position.
Anakin had to go through wars to "surpass" Dooku's skills whereas Luke did it in a short amount of time. And if we take the author's statement as valid, then Galen>Vader.

Luke seems to have some sort of intuitive talent in being able to mirror and learn an opponent's style quickly simply by dueling them or observing their technique. The exile also had that ability. She'd relearn forms she had forgotten about in a single duel.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Luke seems to have some sort of intuitive talent in being able to mirror and learn an opponent's style quickly simply by dueling them or observing their technique. The exile also had that ability. She'd relearn forms she had forgotten about in a single duel.

If it was just Luke. But he had a hard time on Kenobi too.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
I mean, being honest, Vader doesn't have any baseline feats that compare to even an early game Galen Marek. I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he probably is capable of replicating Marek's feats as of his first mission to Raxus Prime but even that might be giving Vader too much credit according to Ant.

Still, I think he gets solid scaling above the likes of Windu and Kenobi, so I think feats like those are probably within his capabilities to replicate, regardless of if he actually scales off of an early game Marek or not.

Based off how easily he ragdolled Kota he should scale above early Marek not that it matters. He's also better than peak Marek and I'd be willing to make a case as to why.

Where does this Starkiller is exhausted thing come from? I feel like its a poor attempt by the Vader lowballers to undermine his feat.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
He didn't actually. In his first fight with Galen he got ragdolled by him and in the second Starkiller was exhausted to the point he struggled to accomplish feats Anakin could around AotC.

I'm not going to push the second fight as I don't want this post to be overly long and we get into all kinds of murky waters when discussing the second.

I just want to address the first. Vader did fight on par with Starkiller. Him getting ragdolled right at the end does not mean he didn't put up a fight lol.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Where does this Starkiller is exhausted thing come from? I feel like its a poor attempt by the Vader lowballers to undermine his feat.

I mean based on the game Starkiller was enraged however the novel makes a point of him being exhausted.

Also yes for some reason people try particularly hard to undermine all of Vader's best achievments and lowball him and like you I want to know why.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In the first it was hard for both to find an opening in the others defence. And when Starkiller finally did it seemed to be after a bit of Dun Moch.

That's because Galen realized that he didn't actually know what Vader was truly capable of and decided to test Vader's capabilities and find a way to defeat him that wouldn't lead him down the path to the Darkside before truly going all out against him. This is made clear in their initial engagement where Vader is barely capable of intercepting Starkiller's attacks.

Relevant passages below:

"Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."

-

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

-

The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

-

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill...

-

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound." - The Force Unleashed.

---

The one attempt at Dun Moch on Galen's part ended up actually backfiring and allowing Vader to come closer to actually landing a blow on Galen then he did at any point in the fight:

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain." - The Force Unleashed.

You might argue the latter part of the fight I posted constitutes Dun Moch but considering the text emphasizes that it's GALEN who gains strength from his newfound convictions and that previous attempts at Dun Moch only ENHANCED Vader's performance. it's highly unlikely to have served the function you're suggesting.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The ragdolling only came after a Lightsaber slash. Before that neither could ragdoll the other.

It came after Galen had "gained a newfound strength." I don't see why the lightsaber blow would have been all that relevant considering it didn't even draw blood.

"The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was. For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator. Then the Dark Lord laughed." - The Force Unleashed.

Not to mention, Darksiders ( Caedus being a prime example ) tend to draw on the pain from their injuries to become more powerful, the amp they gain from their pain not only offsetting most of the hampering effects of the injury but usually increasing their capabilities beyond their original uninjured states.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for the second game, Jedi heal pretty quickly, especially so with a loved one in danger.

Not according to Luke:

"He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones." - Fate of the Jedi: Conviction.

Unless you're suggesting that Starkiller has a faster recovery rate or knows a specific ability that GM Luke does not.

Not only that but Starkiller literally had no time to "heal" as you put it since Vader engaged with him after a brief exchange of dialogue after he accomplished the feat that left him more exhausted then ever before.

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned. Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over. They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive."

And he remembered:

" The Force gives me all I need."

"The Force?"

"The dark side. I mean."

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat. He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won. Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you, " he said, "not obey you. "

"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice."

"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power." Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying. He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus." - The Force Unleashed II.

Originally posted by Darth Thor And Vader was specifically noted to be fighting more cautiously than on board the Death Star. Implying he underestimated his Apprentice the first time.

It implies the exact opposite... As do A multitude of quotes that state otherwise.

"They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.

-

The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.

-

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal.

-


"You thought I was dead," he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly." - The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In the second fight it was clear Starkiller could not overpower Vader. He did his best which was a stalemate.

1. He performed as he did because of his exhaustion. A factor you did not address.

2. Even in this state he was capable of overpowering Vader with lightning to the point he would have been able to kill him had it not been for an untimely vision.

"Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike. Juno lying limp in his arms. The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power. Juno-dead. He reeled in shock." - The Force Unleashed II.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Where does this Starkiller is exhausted thing come from? I feel like its a poor attempt by the Vader lowballers to undermine his feat.

It comes from the novel though SK was rage amped in the game which should counteract it, conflicting sources on the matter.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Based off how easily he ragdolled Kota he should scale above early Marek not that it matters. He's also better than peak Marek and I'd be willing to make a case as to why.

Kota was a depressed drunk at the time... Galen even comments on how he's surprised that Rahm has cleaned up for the meeting on Correlia.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Where does this Starkiller is exhausted thing come from? I feel like its a poor attempt by the Vader lowballers to undermine his feat.

The TFUII novelization:

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being."

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'm not going to push the second fight as I don't want this post to be overly long and we get into all kinds of murky waters when discussing the second.

I just want to address the first. Vader did fight on par with Starkiller. Him getting ragdolled right at the end does not mean he didn't put up a fight lol.

This was only during the initial phase where they were assessing each other's capabilities and Galen was looking for a way to defeat Vader without giving in to his own darkness as I detail in my post above.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I mean based on the game Starkiller was enraged however the novel makes a point of him being exhausted.

Also yes for some reason people try particularly hard to undermine all of Vader's best achievments and lowball him and like you I want to know why.

According to Chee, the first TFU novel takes precedence over any ancillary material ( such as the games and comics ). I don't see why that wouldn't be the case with the second as well.

-

Originally posted by Beelzebub
This was only during the initial phase where they were assessing each other's capabilities and Galen was looking for a way to defeat Vader without giving in to his own darkness as I detail in my post above.

Time to work on a counter I guess.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
The TFUII novelization:

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being."

I swear that's your favourite line.

I'll admit I find the irony of HP going against SK even though he loves him far more than Syn could ever dream of hilarious.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
I swear that's your favourite line.

It's amusing to watch people try to deny it's existence and/or relevancy, yeah.

Rage amps can't overcome that level of exhaustion for too long before the character in question is even more spent than he started off - e.g Maul vs Sidious.

Starkiller fighting Vader is no where near his full power considering the physical strain and of course PTSD flash backs hindering him. It sets him back considerably. GM Luke under arguably better circumstances claims he dropped several tiers down to Knight level thanks to a physical and emotional ebb in composure.


Originally posted by Beelzebub
It's amusing to watch people try to deny it's existence and/or relevancy, yeah.

It's pretty obvious why. Vader fans are desperate to cling to their Starkiller Trophy. Despite it being phoney. If it wasn't obvious that Vader can't hang with SK by the circumstances, then it is by virtue of TPM Maul obliterating in a physical contest - only loosing to a cheap trick.

Originally posted by Xiggy
It's pretty obvious why. Vader fans are desperate to cling to their Starkiller Trophy. Despite it being phoney. If it wasn't obvious that Vader can't hang with SK by the circumstances, then it is by virtue of TPM Maul obliterating in a physical contest - only loosing to a cheap trick.

Certain members who have posted their support of Vader in this thread have outright admitted this to me on Discord.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
It comes from the novel though SK was rage amped in the game which should counteract it, conflicting sources on the matter.

So what if Galen used Force rage? Using that logic then Vader is a poor duelist too since he employs Force rage in combat too.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So what if Galen used Force rage? Using that logic then Vader is a poor duelist too since he employs Force rage in combat too.

He's essentially trying to claim that becoming enraged would have made up entirely for Starkiller's exhaustion despite:

1. Having no proof of that being the case.

2. The novel showing Starkiller actively preventing himself from drawing on his rage/anger so as to keep himself from falling to the Darkside.

I think that Starkiller vs Vader he's is between being angry but extremely emotionally unbalanced but also not letting go and giving into the Darkside. Which on top of the exhaustion, compounds the factors against him even more.

And even then Vader still looses. It's actually pretty pathetic.

Originally posted by Xiggy
I think that Starkiller vs Vader he's is between being angry but extremely emotionally unbalanced but also not letting go and giving into the Darkside. Which on top of the exhaustion, compounds the factors against him even more.

And even then Vader still looses. It's actually pretty pathetic.

It really isn't. Starkiller is stupidly powerful. Losing to him isn't a bad feat at all lol.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
It really isn't. Starkiller is stupidly powerful. Losing to him isn't a bad feat at all lol.

This is quite true actually. There's no shame in losing to even an exhausted Starkiller given he's still above 99.9% of the mythos when operating at less then full capacity.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
This is quite true actually. There's no shame in losing to even a tired Starkiller given he's still above 99.9% of the mythos when operating at a fraction of his normal capabilities.

But when Obi wan loses to an exhausted Dooku nobody bats an eye

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
But when Obi wan loses to an exhausted Dooku nobody bats an eye

Why that would harm their precious Anakin scaling.

I'm amused by the fact that people are "Calling me out" for having this opinion when I'm far from the only person who holds it.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
It really isn't. Starkiller is stupidly powerful. Losing to him isn't a bad feat at all lol.

When power can be heavily influenced by severe emotional and physical circumstances... it kinda is. It degrades the feat utterly. Similar circumstances have caused Luke to drop several tiers. And the same goes for Anakin on mustafar. Which is why I don't compare Vader to Starkiller. The latter is probably some order of magnitude more powerful. This is apparent in the circumstances of their fight and their feature limitations.

In the TFU II novel Vader attempts to TK his personal TIE Fighter before it flies off. But he can't and gets figuratively left in the dust as he watches it disembark from the platform. This was on Kamino. Starfighters do not accelerate past around 1000kph in atmosphere - a safety mechanism in response to air friction. So he loses both in comparison and in features. The next big contender Vader faces is Maul in Legends. He wins a less-than-gratifying victory with a trick unworthy of TPM Kenobi's final ploy. And that's probably where he is as a combatant by this time.

Originally posted by Xiggy
When power can be heavily influenced by severe emotional and physical circumstances... it kinda is. It degrades the feat utterly. Similar circumstances have caused Luke to drop several tiers. And the same goes for Anakin on mustafar. Which is why I don't compare Vader to Starkiller. The latter is probably some order of magnitude more powerful. This is apparent in the circumstances of their fight and their feature limitations.

In the TFU II novel Vader attempts to TK his personal TIE Fighter before it flies off. But he can't and gets figuratively left in the dust as he watches it disembark from the platform. This was on Kamino. Starfighters do not accelerate past around 1000kph in atmosphere - a safety mechanism in response to air friction. So he loses both in comparison and in features. The next big contender Vader faces is Maul in Legends. He wins a less-than-gratifying victory with a trick unworthy of TPM Kenobi's final ploy. And that's probably where he is as a combatant by this time.

Like I said Prime Obi Wan lost to an exhausted Dooku with the help of Anakin. While Vader lost to an exhausted Starkiller in an incredibly heated duel. Are we going to start calling Obi Wan "pathetic" now? Also Vader still won that duel against Maul no matter what.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Like I said Prime Obi Wan lost to an exhausted Dooku with the help of Anakin. While Vader lost to an exhausted Starkiller in an incredibly heated duel. Are we going to start calling Obi Wan "pathetic" now? Also Vader still won that duel against Maul no matter what.

The circumstances are worlds apart :


"Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions" -Dooku


"He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being" - S'killer


One is in the beginnings of fatigue. The other is utterly pooped out. More pooped out than he has ever been. Even when he was starved for 14 days in the same story. You're also undermining the emotional hinderance. S'killer is unbalanced but trying not to use the Darkside at the same time while being haunted in PTSD fashion by flashbacks. The mental clarity that allows the Force to flow so strongly though him when he atomises frigates is not present. And he's running on an empty tank anyway.

I hope you get the picture. Dooku being used is a false equivalence. Galen's situation is more comparable to Grandmaster Luke at Sinkhole station where he puts himself on the same tier as Cilghal (utter fodder)

@IndyJedi On a final note. Dooku wasn't the only person getting tired.. according to the ROTS script :

Originally posted by Xiggy
@IndyJedi On a final note. Dooku wasn't the only person getting tired.. according to the ROTS script :

Also wasn't vader holding back against Starkiller?

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Also wasn't vader holding back against Starkiller?

The intent was to capture, yes. But I see that as less (much less) of a factor than Kiiller's condition. I also doubt he'd hesitate in killing the clone if it meant his life could have been ended.

https://i.imgur.com/ZmYjDtN.jpg

Post is nearly done. I'll post it below in a min.

Originally posted by Beelzebub



Wow... This double standard though. You say Vader cannot deal with Galen's rage and bring up an instance of Vader being unprepared for Galen's attack. If you want to go down that route I can do that too.

"He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely."

-The Force Unleashed

You've always argued against this because of the premise that Galen was unprepared for Vader (which I agree with) but your also failing to apply your own logic to Vader as well. Once again please don't deliberately make this favourable to Starkiller and ommit context.

Next the below passage you cited shows favour to neither unlike what you want to believe.

Deliberately bolding everything that favours Starkiller does not make him better lmao.

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

- The Force Unleashed

The text specifically notes how brilliantly Darth Vader was fighting and how the only way Galen could beat him was giving to all the anger he had for his former master. They were equals. Starkiller dodging his master does not make him better especially given Vader's fighting style.

Basically Galen and Vader are equals.

Now of course there is the part where Galen gains clarity and beats Vader. However this isn't some one sided stomping that people make it out to be. Vader being pushed back and eventually overwhelmed does not mean Galen is miles better.

Let's look at the below passage:

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound."

- The Force Unleashed

Nothing in here points to a stomp. People have claimed it does just because Vader was being pushed back but look at the text:

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for.

Despite pushing him back Galen had gained no notable advantages and only finally managed to find a chink in Vader's armour right at the end. He was looking for that over the course of the duel and while it is true that the clarity he gained allowed him to push Vader it didn't magically allow him to stomp Vader.

In fact the clairty really only gave him a slight push just like when Galen used Dun Moch on Vader and the latter nearly killed him:

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?" The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father." The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain."

- The Force Unleashed

Now that I've established the two were near equals with a slight push either way allowing the other to press them and the chink in the armour Starkiller discovered was because of the whole fight not just his clarity I'd say we can scale Vader to Starkiller.

They're equal IMO and I feel like that was what was potrayed in TFU.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Also wasn't vader holding back against Starkiller?

Nah, it says Vader was fighting cautious which directly goes against that idea and then it specifies later that Vader is going all out.

"They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him." - The Force Unleashed II.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Wow... This double standard though. You say Vader cannot deal with Galen's rage

Actually, I never mentioned anything about Galen's rage. It wouldn't make sense to since Galen wasn't enraged at the time.

Originally posted by HP Legend
and bring up an instance of Vader being unprepared for Galen's attack. If you want to go down that route I can do that too.

"He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely."

-The Force Unleashed

You've always argued against this because of the premise that Galen was unprepared for Vader (which I agree with) but your also failing to apply your own logic to Vader as well. Once again please don't deliberately make this favourable to Starkiller and ommit context.

The difference being that once Galen got a measure for Vader's ability, he adjusted accordingly and was able to deal with his strength no problem. As I showed in my quotes, the same cannot be said of Vader's ability to deal with Galen's speed.

On top of that, it's very likely that Vader put more power into his initial opening blow in order to catch Galen off guard as this seems to be a common practice amongst Djem So practitioners as seen in Bane's fight with Zannah.

"Zannah expected Bane to come at her aggressively, but even so she was caught off guard by the ferociousness of his attack. He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance." - Dynasty of Evil.

I cover this in my TFU misconceptions thread in more depth: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/star-wars-misconceptions-the-force-unleashed-franc-1944208/

Originally posted by HP Legend
Next the below passage you cited shows favour to neither unlike what you want to believe.

Deliberately bolding everything that favours Starkiller does not make him better lmao.

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

Not sure what you're trying to suggest here. The section you underlined simply notes that Vader fought well and only needed a single opening to kill Galen. The fact is, Galen didn't provide him with that opening and even went so far as to push Vader to his absolute limits with his own offensive, which was my point ( that's why I highlighted that portion of the text ).

Originally posted by HP Legend
The text specifically notes how brilliantly Darth Vader was fighting and how the only way Galen could beat him was giving to all the anger he had for his former master. They were equals. Starkiller dodging his master does not make him better especially given Vader's fighting style.

Basically Galen and Vader are equals.

I'm going to need you to substantiate that claim. Where in the text does it note that it's necessary for Galen to give in to his anger to beat Vader? Throughout the entire fight it shows Galen actively resisting the urge to draw on the Darkside.

As I've already shown, Vader is barely managing to block Galen's blows and being pushed to his limit by Galen's offensive BEFORE Galen comes to his realization that Vader is to be pitied rather then hated. After Galen comes to that realization, he utterly dominates Vader.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Now of course there is the part where Galen gains clarity and beats Vader. However this isn't some one sided stomping that people make it out to be. Vader being pushed back and eventually overwhelmed does not mean Galen is miles better.

Let's look at the below passage:

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound." - The Force Unleashed

Nothing in here points to a stomp. People have claimed it does just because Vader was being pushed back but look at the text:

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for.

Despite pushing him back Galen had gained no notable advantages and only finally managed to find a chink in Vader's armour right at the end.

Gained no notable advantages? The passage you posted literally shows Galen driving Vader into full retreat and piercing his guard by slicing off parts of his cape. Vader's incapable of even disengaging with him at this point.

Originally posted by HP Legend
He was looking for that over the course of the duel and while it is true that the clarity he gained allowed him to push Vader it didn't magically allow him to stomp Vader.

In fact the clairty really only gave him a slight push just like when Galen used Dun Moch on Vader and the latter nearly killed him:


"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?" The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father." The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain." - The Force Unleashed

Now that I've established the two were near equals with a slight push either way allowing the other to press them

The problem with this idea comes when you consider the fact that Galen is capable of ragdolling Vader after achieving this clarity.

"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued." - The Force Unleashed.

The manner in which Vader "lifted" Galen's father: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11134/111341755/6387442-1913915892-63871.gif

Also, your theory doesn't account for the moments in the fight where Vader was just barely manages to defend himself against Galen's offensives.

Originally posted by HP Legend
nd the chink in the armour Starkiller discovered was because of the whole fight not just his clarity

Sorry, where did you provide evidence for this being the case?

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'd say we can scale Vader to Starkiller.

Even if everything you said had been correct ( hint: it's not ), you still wouldn't be able to scale Vader off of Starkiller since the clone is confirmed to be more powerful then his template.

Originally posted by HP Legend
They're equal IMO and I feel like that was what was potrayed in TFU.

https://i.imgflip.com/2nxixk.jpg

Originally posted by Beelzebub



I'm tired ignore that part.



Based on what? Galen dancing around his defences? That's just Galen being his equal. Give me one instance of Galen's speed being a problem. Heck give me a quote that insinuates that. Nothing in the text does besides Galen catching Vader off guard which Vader did to Galen as well. And yes I acknowledge the context to that so the counter wasn't needed. I'll skip over it.



1. What you highlighted shows Galen was able to defend against Vader not push his offensive to it's absolute limits.

2. I cited the passage to show Vader fought well and was a relative equal to Galen.



The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

The passage literally said here The Dark Side was what he needed to overwhelm his master and that he's resisting it and trying to find a better way to finish the fight. This implies that Galen is unable to beat Vader without calling upon his hatred for his former master.



Based on what?

Let me cite you the first part of the fight before Galen's clarity.

"Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."

-

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits. - The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job."

The only part here where any of what you suggested happened is the start where Vader is caught off gaurd. Vader is not barely able to block Galen's blows and in fact nothing suggests this. Vader is described as fighting brilliantly (cited before) which shows he's fighting well. If Vader was barely blocking Galen's blows surely the text would have noted it.

And as for his offensive being pushed to it's absolute limits once again it's not noted at all. Galen defending against Vader does not man his offensive was being pushed to it's absolute limits. You're deliberately exaggerating things to fabour Galen.



Vader retreating does not mean he's getting stomped lmao. And near misses are still near misses. Vader's cape is not something that is of particular value unlike his head or his arm. Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated and Galen needed to find a chink in his armour to finish him off (something which he was looking for whole fight).



You mean a beaten and weakened Vader. Lol okay. And no your rebuttal to this was not adequate. Just because there was no blood does not mean Vader wasn't injuired especially since lightsabers should cauterize wounds.



How many times are you going to say this without proof? All you have is the opening exchange where Vader was taken by surprise.



I didn't because I thought the quote made it fairly obvious they'd both been looking for a chink in the armour for the whole fight.

"The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for."

"That both of them had been waiting for." Seems fairly self explanatory.

Also it's noted Vader was looking for a chink in the armour at the start:

"All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. "

And Stakiller was stated to be testing his opponents defences:

"He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

There I'm done.



I know. I'm just establishing a baseline. I'm not going to get into TFU 2 as I don't have the energy for that lol. It get's to messy.

I'll respond to this later. Remind me on Discord tomorrow if I haven't got to it by then.

What's your DiscordTag, HP?

Originally posted by Beelzebub
The TFUII novelization:

"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being."


I dont have my copy in me so Can you post the entire passage please, so I can see when that takes place I.e. During or before the Vader fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dont have my copy in me so Can you post the entire passage please, so I can see when that takes place I.e. During or before the Vader fight.

His clones screamed as he cut them down.

It quickly became apparent that the first to rush in were the wildest and weakest both. In their eagerness to do battle, they didn't stop to plan their strategies. What they possessed in speed, they lacked in forethought. He was armed and they were not, so for being headstrong beyond all reason these brutish beings paid the ultimate price.

The next wave either learned from the fate of the first or had enough innate caution to stand back a moment and observe the way he fought. They came at him from all sides, using telekinesis to try to knock him off balance on the blood-slicked floor. He was too fast for them, leaping over their heads and attacking from be- hind, slashing at their overdeveloped shoulders and hunched backs without remorse.

Moving out of the center of the ring of converging clones brought him into contact with the third wave, the most cunning he had encountered so far. Long-armed and long-fingered, with blackened, blistering skin, these employed lightning when attacking him, and then by devious means. They would wait until he was distracted and attack him from behind, or come at him from three directions at once, or even use one of their fellow clones as an impromptu conductor. Deadly currents crackled and sparkled around him, kept barely at bay by the judicious application of a Force shield. Sometimes a lucky strike caused him pain, but he fought through it, found the source, and put the attack quickly to an end.

From above came the sound of lightsabers activating, and he braced himself for another, more dangerous onslaught. These, the most normal looking of all the clones, spun, slashed, hacked, and stabbed at him from all sides, one-handed, two-handed, with all possible variations of lightsaber combat styles. Red-eyed and hate- filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.

And yet... Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning-combined with physical strength and agility-the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees. He saw in their faces the same confusion he felt. They were all clones, so who was he to stand out from among them? What special qualities set him apart?

Who was Starkiller, in this mass of faces and bodies?

A desperate rage built up inside him. What if what he felt was nothing but a lingering imprint left behind by the first Starkiller? Did he cling to his feelings with all the more desperation because deep down he knew they were counterfeit? "The memories of a dead man, " Vader had called them, blaming them for the torment and confusion he had felt. "They will fade, " Vader had promised, but they had not. Did the other clones experience the same hopes and fears? Were their experiences any less worthy than his?

"Destroy what he created... hate what he loved... he strong... " That was the command Vader had given him, on threat of death. But who was the deliverer of that death? Wasn't he the one delivering to the clones the very fate that he had feared? Had they all been given the same ultimatum?

"You will receive the same treatment as the others. "

Death by lightsaber, at his own hand. Perhaps this macabre free-for-all was Vader's way of weeding out the imperfect stock. The last one left standing would be considered the perfect Starkiller, the one who would rake his place at Vader's side. Perhaps that was his plan.

"You have faced your final test, " Vader had told a victorious version of himself in the vision he had received on the Salvation. Maybe the vision he had received on Dagobah had warned him of a very real trial, nor the metaphorical one he had imagined it to be.

The dark side awaited his call. But if this was his final test, then he would not fail. There was too much riding on it. If he gave in to temptation and became Darth Vader's apprentice once more, then it was clear from the vision that Juno would die. She was the whole reason he had escaped, and then returned. He would not turn his back on that, even to survive.

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

And he remembered:

" The Force gives me all I need. "

"The Force?"

"The dark side. I mean. "

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.

Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you, " he said, "not obey you. "

"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice. "

"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power. "

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged.

So many typos in my post. I hate that KMC doesn't allow you to edit after a certain period of time.

Originally posted by HP Legend
So many typos in my post. I hate that KMC doesn't allow you to edit after a certain period of time.

Same.

^ Thanks for the passage.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Based on what? Galen dancing around his defences? That's just Galen being his equal. Give me one instance of Galen's speed being a problem. Heck give me a quote that insinuates that. Nothing in the text does besides Galen catching Vader off guard which Vader did to Galen as well. And yes I acknowledge the context to that so the counter wasn't needed. I'll skip over it.

The quote that states Vader was being pushed to his limits trying to fend Galen off is what insinuates that...

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. What you highlighted shows Galen was able to defend against Vader not push his offensive to it's absolute limits.

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits." - The Force Unleashed

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. I cited the passage to show Vader fought well and was a relative equal to Galen.

How Vader fought, whether "brilliantly" or "poorly" doesn't tell us how he held up against a particular opponent. Someone like Kas'im likely fought technically perfectly against PoD Bane but he still was being driven back because Bane was simply stronger, faster and more powerful.

Originally posted by HP Legend
The passage literally said here The Dark Side was what he needed to overwhelm his master and that he's resisting it and trying to find a better way to finish the fight.

No, it says that using the Darkside is ONE way to finish the job that he is seeking a better one because he does not wish to strike Vader down in anger. Once he manages to LET GO of his hatred for Vader he immediately overcomes him.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Based on what?

Based on the quote stating exactly that. I've cited it a few times now, you should be able to find it by scrolling up a bit.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Let me cite you the first part of the fight before Galen's clarity. The only part here where any of what you suggested happened is the start where Vader is caught off gaurd. Vader is not barely able to block Galen's blows and in fact nothing suggests this.

Aside from the line that directly states he's "being pushed to his limits."

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader is described as fighting brilliantly (cited before) which shows he's fighting well.

It shows he's a skilled fighter which is why the text goes out of its way to specify that all Vader needs to end Galen is "a single opening." It doesn't specify how well he's doing against Galen though for the reasons I've already explained.

Originally posted by HP Legend
If Vader was barely blocking Galen's blows surely the text would have noted it. And as for his offensive being pushed to it's absolute limits once again it's not noted at all.

Except it DID. You're just repeating yourself at this point which is quite annoying since you're forcing me to do the same.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Galen defending against Vader does not man his offensive was being pushed to it's absolute limits. You're deliberately exaggerating things to fabour Galen.

Show me where I've exaggerated anywhere in this thread.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader retreating does not mean he's getting stomped lmao.

The fact is, Vader wasn't even capable of disengaging with Galen by that point. He tried to but Galen didn't allow him to. It's similar to Dooku's fight with Anakin in that Dooku was desperately looking for an escape in order to reorient himself. The difference there is that Dooku managed to find an opening to disengage despite being utterly outclassed by Anakin. Vader was unable to with Galen.

Originally posted by HP Legend
nd near misses are still near misses.

They do show however that Vader is so focused on retreating and blocking Galen's blows that he's no longer concerned with punishing or retaliating against strikes in close proximity to his person. I.E. that he's too overwhelmed dealing with Galen's offensive to worry about it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated and Galen needed to find a chink in his armour to finish him off (something which he was looking for whole fight).

You understand that finding a "chink in the armor" isn't literal. It simply means capitalizing on an opportunity to overwhelm your opponent. The opening that was created came about as a result of Galen pushing Vader as much as he did. The text even notes that the reason Galen lands a blow is because Vader isn't fast enough to intercept his strike.

"Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat." - The Force Unleahsed

Originally posted by HP Legend
You mean a beaten and weakened Vader. Lol okay. And no your rebuttal to this was not adequate. Just because there was no blood does not mean Vader wasn't injuired especially since lightsabers should cauterize w

That is a possibility which I noted in my response as I mentioned that even if he had been injured, the pain from the injury should logically amp Vader. As a result of you ignoring multiple aspects of my post that you simply found "too difficult" to address, your own post thus far has been quite... unsatisfying.

Originally posted by HP Legend
How many times are you going to say this without proof? All you have is the opening exchange where Vader was taken by surprise.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge the existence of certain quotes doesn't alter the fact that they exist. If you can't learn to accept reality then I've done as much as I can here.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I didn't because I thought the quote made it fairly obvious they'd both been looking for a chink in the armour for the whole fight. "That both of them had been waiting for." Seems fairly self explanatory.

Also it's noted Vader was looking for a chink in the armour at the start:

And Stakiller was stated to be testing his opponents defences:

There I'm done.

Yes. Now where's the quote stating that Galen found that chink as a result of everything that happened in the fight previously as opposed to simply CREATING one by pressuring Vader as he did.

I'll work on a response later.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'll work on a response later.

Me too

Originally posted by Beelzebub



I meant anything suggesting Galen's speed was an advantage. Him testing Vader's defences to their limits does not make him faster lol.



Actually it does. The text goes out of it's way to support the idea that Vader could kill Galen if given the slightest opening. Which suggests Vader was close to Galen in lightsaber combat.

"Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses."

And Galen vowing to not give Vader an opening (really melodramatic) suggests Vader was close to breaking down his defences (ie: pushing them to their limits).

"The apprentice vowed not to give him one."

Also the fact that they were noted to be fighting back and forth with the text giving neither the advantage suggests they were close and Vader was holding up well.

"They fought back and forth across the observation dome."

Also the fact that the text notes that Galen needed to embrace his hatred for Vader to beat him shows Galen isn't capable of beating Vader without a boost. This is supported by Galen only finally overwhelming Vader when he finds clarity (a better way to win as Galen puts it).

"The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job."

Also to argue against your "pushed his defences to their absolute limits" argument I'll put this into perspective for you. I'm a Fencer and have routinely been pressed and pushed back (nearly being overwhelmed and my defenses being pushed to their limits) but have managed to get in a hit. I've also done similair things to several opponents I've faced (pushed them back) only to be hit or put on my back foot. This lines up with the text saying they fought back and forth (meaning they both pressured each others defences). Galen pressuring Vader's defences does not mean he was stomping Vader.

You can argue all you want that Galen was winning prior to his clarity but the text itself simply does not support these claims.

Allow me to further supplement this idea. Force Power generally has lot to do with lightsaber combat as you need to dedicate it to augmenting your physical abilities.

Well at the start of the fight Vader sends Galen flying with a Force Push and Galen actually lays still for about 5 seconds indicating he was stunned by Vader's force push. This is more than enough to indicate parity in force power.

https://youtu.be/HblR0sMoh3s?t=757

Alright that's me done with my rebuttal to that. Now that I've done that I'll skip over quite a few of your points because most of it is just you repeating yourself.



Exactly... The quote implies Galen is unable to finish Vader unless he throws himself into the dark side or finds another way (which is what he was doing for most of the fight).

This supports what I'm saying you know.



Yes I know he wasn't capable of disengaging. Vader retreating and not being able to disengage does not mean he's being stomped. It means he's being pressured badly and I said Vader was losing but the amount is exaggerated. Galen still was incapable of overwhelming Vader despite Galen's boost and he required a mistake on Vader's part to do so.

Unless you're seriously going to argue clarity was enough to allow Galen to go from being Vader's equal to stomping him. Clarity doesn't do that.

It's also worth noting that something similair happened on Vader's end as well with him nearly overwhelming Galen.

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

All it takes is a slight boost on either side for them to pressure each other (eg: Dun Moch or clarity).

Yet either still requires a mistake on their opponents part to win. The two were potrayed as equals with a boost on either side being able to tip the balance slightly.



I'm aware. Simple really. Vader made a mistake and Galen capitalised on it. This explanation wasn't needed. I undertsand it's not literal. It's true Galen's victory came about because he pressured Vader except it's made perfectly clear all that was required was a mistake on either side regardless of the circumstances (whichever of them was being pushed back). The text made a point about them being equals and both of them being so formidable all it required was a small mistake which could have happened on either end.



Pain only carry you so far. The example you brought up with Caedus is flawed because Caedus is noted to be a master of the technique and still get's affected by his injuiries. The only example of Caedus amping himself with pain (at least that I remember) was at the start of his fight with GM Luke when he was still on his feet and had not depleted his force reserves. Other times like when he fought with A Jedi Strike Team his previous injuiries affected him and he didn't use them to amp himself. This was at the end of his fight with The Jedi Strike Team (like with Galen vs Vader).

I think after fighting for several minutes, depleting his force reserves, having his guard beaten down and being stabbed several times Vader wouldn't feel to up to fighting like when Caedus's injuiries began to affect him towards the end of his fight with a Jedi Strike Team.

There done. Wasn't that hard to addresss unlike what you claimed.



It's not that I refused to acknowledge there existence. It's just you never provided proof of their existence.



Nowhere. I conceed on this particular point that Vader's mistake was created by being pressured by Galen.

Conclusion:

Now as much as you'd like to believe otherwise Galen was equal to Vader (prior to his boost) and even with a boost he still needed a mistake on Vader's part to win and it was equally as plausible Vader could have won the fight (if Galen had made a mistake). It's made note of throughout the fight that the advantage kept changing (they fought back and forth) and that with a boost either could gain the upper hand over the other but in the end it came down to who made a mistake first. The text potrays them as equals. Stop trying to argue otherwise.

I'm enjoying this, good debate, nice counter HP. I feel like HP's holding up slightly better but my boy Syn is defending his character with pride.

So is this debate just on TFU 1?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
So is this debate just on TFU 1?

Yup, HP inherently dislikes TFU 2's fdight and thinks it's messy and annoying to debate.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Yup, HP inherently dislikes TFU 2's fdight and thinks it's messy and annoying to debate.

I don't dislike it. It's just I don't have the energy to debate both fights and TFU is considerably easier to debate.

I think we're kind of hitting a wall here. At this point you're just denying evidence that doesn't favor your interpretation which forces me to reiterate my points. I'll probably post one more response and after that you're on your own.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
I think we're kind of hitting a wall here. At this point you're just denying evidence that doesn't favor your interpretation which forces me to reiterate my points. I'll probably post one more response and after that you're on your own.

Ok. Seriously though. I'm not denying evidence. You're the one who things Galen was winning before his boost.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Ok. Seriously though. I'm not denying evidence.

You're literally ignoring sections of my post you don't want to respond to...

Originally posted by HP Legend
You're the one who things Galen was winning before his boost.

Yes... Based on the evidence I'm presenting.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
You're literally ignoring sections of my post you don't want to respond to...



Yes... Based on the evidence I'm presenting.

1. Which sections? Post something which I ignored and I'll address it. I skipped over some of the fluff that didn't need addressing (because it was you repeating yourself) but I don't think I missed anything of importance.

2. Um no. You took a line about Galen pressuring Vader's defences out of context and decided he was winning based on it.

I feel like we're all ignoring evidence here.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I meant anything suggesting Galen's speed was an advantage. Him testing Vader's defences to their limits does not make him faster lol.

If Vader is barely capable of fending off Galen's offensive and Galen has so no such trouble fending off Vader's, that implies that a disparity in speed exists between the two of them. Something that's supported by Galen catching Vader off guard with his speed at the beginning of the fight and overwhelming Vader's defenses with speed at the end of the fight.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Actually it does. The text goes out of it's way to support the idea that Vader could kill Galen if given the slightest opening. Which suggests Vader was close to Galen in lightsaber combat.

Again, the text stating that Vader would be able to immediately capitalize on an opening doesn't suggest he's on par with Galen as an overall combatant. It only suggests that Vader is a skilled and deadly duelist.

Originally posted by HP Legend
And Galen vowing to not give Vader an opening (really melodramatic) suggests Vader was close to breaking down his defences (ie: pushing them to their limits).

How the hell do you come to the conclusion that Vader was close to breaking through his defenses from a line where saying Galen wouldn't give him one?

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also the fact that they were noted to be fighting back and forth with the text giving neither the advantage suggests they were close and Vader was holding up well.

I already addressed this in my first post. This occurs after their initial engagement before Galen has the full measure of Vader. Galen is a very tactical fighter. He studies his opponents and how they fight and uses it against them. With Rahm Kota he knew he couldn't outright overwhelm him in the Force so he figured out a way to turn Rahm's own ability against him. He's not going to go all out against an opponent who's own abilities he himself isn't sure of. Especially when he knows he has to fight the Emperor pretty much after he defeats Vader.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also the fact that the text notes that Galen needed to embrace his hatred for Vader to beat him shows Galen isn't capable of beating Vader without a boost.

Except it doesn't actually say that. Please stop making false claims. :/

Originally posted by HP Legend
This is supported by Galen only finally overwhelming Vader when he finds clarity (a better way to win as Galen puts it).

"Clarity" doesn't amp someone. It simply allows them to realize something that they hadn't realized before. That realization, per the text, is that Vader is to be pitied rather then hated and, as a result, gives Galen free reign to defeat Vader without giving in to the Darkside.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also to argue against your "pushed his defences to their absolute limits" argument I'll put this into perspective for you. I'm a Fencer and have routinely been pressed and pushed back (nearly being overwhelmed and my defenses being pushed to their limits) but have managed to get in a hit. I've also done similair things to several opponents I've faced (pushed them back) only to be hit or put on my back foot.

Being quite honest, I don't believe you. Irregardless of whether or not you're telling the truth, your analogy falls flat for two reasons.

1. This is a duel to the death where someone being driven back is going to be doing everything they can to simply gain space and avoid getting hit because they don't want to die. In a sparring match, you might pull some crazy move in order to get in a hit or two because you know you're probably going to lose anyways. In a duel to the death, you're unlikely to risk it because the chance of opening yourself up ti a fatal blow from your opponent is too high. Galen's duel with Shaak Ti is a prime example of the risk you take by carrying out these sort of maneuvers.

2. These are Force user's, not normal humans. Opportunistic counters like the one's you're referencing are far less likely to occur due to the participants having precognition. This means that if you're being driven back you have to get creative if you're going to distract or catch your opponent off guard and can't rely on doing something random or unexpected to catch them off guard.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This lines up with the text saying they fought back and forth (meaning they both pressured each others defences). Galen pressuring Vader's defences does not mean he was stomping Vader.

There's a difference between "going back and forth" and "being driven back."

In the first, both parties are pressuring each other's defenses while in the latter only one party is pressuring another's defenses because the other party is putting all the have into simply fending off the attacks of the other.

Here are some visual depictions of the two to help you understand.

Going back and forth:

https://media.giphy.com/media/nxPruOTb8viljeNjt0/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/1iSZJNgVyV4C1AKl2o/giphy.gif

Driving someone back:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DismalMellowBlacknorwegianelkhound-size_restricted.gif

https://i.imgur.com/bXpJlLm.gif

Originally posted by HP Legend
ou can argue all you want that Galen was winning prior to his clarity but the text itself simply does not support these claims.

Except it clearly does... The fact is this. The only reason Vader lasted as long as he did was because of Galen's lack of knowledge on Vader's abilities and his unwillingness to strike Vader down in anger. After we see these two factors accounted for Galen gains a marked advantage over. In the former he's now pushing Vader to his limits and the latter he outright dominates him.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Allow me to further supplement this idea. Force Power generally has lot to do with lightsaber combat as you need to dedicate it to augmenting your physical abilities.

Well at the start of the fight Vader sends Galen flying with a Force Push and Galen actually lays still for about 5 seconds indicating he was stunned by Vader's force push. This is more than enough to indicate parity in force power.

This never occurred in the novel and, per Leeland Chee, the novelization of TFU takes precedent over any ancillary material or alternative portrayals when it comes to what actually occurred in the TFU storyline.

In 2008, the next chapter of the Star Wars saga will be told in LucasArts' brand-new, next generation video game, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy. The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams ( based on the story by Haden Blackman ) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga. - First Look: The Force Unleashed Novel.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Exactly... The quote implies Galen is unable to finish Vader unless he throws himself into the dark side or finds another way (which is what he was doing for most of the fight).

It in no way implies he is unable to overcome him. It simply shows that Galen is unwilling to give in to the Darkside and still harbors anger and resentment towards Vader. He's trying to figure out how to defeat Vader without giving into those emotions.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This supports what I'm saying you know.

No, they don't. But I'm starting to believe that you actually think they do which is worrying.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yes I know he wasn't capable of disengaging. Vader retreating and not being able to disengage does not mean he's being stomped.

Similar instances like the fight between Dooku and Anakin would suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Galen still was incapable of overwhelming Vader despite Galen's boost and he required a mistake on Vader's part to do so.

What mistake is Vader shown making? The text literally states the reason Galen lands the blow is because Vader is too slow to intercept it. Meaning it portrays it in the exact opposite way you're saying, showing that Galen did in fact overwhelm Vader. And what boost are you talking about? Galen never receives any boost outside of an instance where he briefly gave in to his anger before reigning himself in.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Unless you're seriously going to argue clarity was enough to allow Galen to go from being Vader's equal to stomping him. Clarity doesn't do that.

It does when the one thing stopping you from dominating your opponent is fear that you'll strike them down in anger and hatred and the clarity is what allows you to rid yourself of those emotions.

Originally posted by HP Legend
It's also worth noting that something similair happened on Vader's end as well with him nearly overwhelming Galen.

Yet either still requires a mistake on their opponents part to win. The two were potrayed as equals with a boost on either side being able to tip the balance slightly.

You've already posted this. Vader managing to come close to landing a blow when rage amped when Galen does that normally does not indicate parity.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'm aware. Simple really. Vader made a mistake and Galen capitalised on it. This explanation wasn't needed. I undertsand it's not literal. It's true Galen's victory came about because he pressured Vader except it's made perfectly clear all that was required was a mistake on either side regardless of the circumstances (whichever of them was being pushed back). The text made a point about them being equals and both of them being so formidable all it required was a small mistake which could have happened on either end.

How does "not being fast enough" constitute a mistake. :/

Originally posted by HP Legend
Pain only carry you so far. The example you brought up with Caedus is flawed because Caedus is noted to be a master of the technique and still get's affected by his injuiries. The only example of Caedus amping himself with pain (at least that I remember) was at the start of his fight with GM Luke when he was still on his feet and had not depleted his force reserves. Other times like when he fought with A Jedi Strike Team his previous injuiries affected him and he didn't use them to amp himself. This was at the end of his fight with The Jedi Strike Team (like with Galen vs Vader).

Caedus utilized his pain in order to amp himself in multiple fights including; his fight with Jaina, his fight with Aurra Sing and his aforementioned fight with Luke.

"Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealinig his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath. But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him. He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force." - Tempest.

"His flesh was bulging around the scorch hole in his abdomen, and there were half a dozen syringes planted in his face almost to the barrels. He was in obvious pain-and he was feeding on it." - Invincible.

Multiple instances in the lore contradict your belief as well. Bane's powers were enhanced by pain and Maul himself was able to use his pain to briefly overcome his exhaustion after being hunted for weeks by a droid army on a barren planet with no food or water.

"Ignoring the agony of the two creatures still attached to him, he reached out with the Force and hoisted the stone block on the far side of the room up into the air. His powers were enhanced by pain," - Rule of Two.

Unless you're suggesting Bane knows more about the Force then a man who access to all of Bane's knowledge and entire libraries of accumulated Darkside knowledge. If you are, I don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I think after fighting for several minutes, depleting his force reserves, having his guard beaten down and being stabbed several times Vader wouldn't feel to up to fighting like when Caedus's injuries began to affect him towards the end of his fight with a Jedi Strike Team.


Why don't you post the passage you're referencing for context so we can see if it's as you say. The other instances I mentioned above would seem to go imply the circumstances you're mentioning differ in some way to themselves to have leads to such a different outcome.

Originally posted by HP Legend
There done. Wasn't that hard to addresss unlike what you claimed.

Don't think I'd call that addressing my points. More like dancing around them. Or attempting to anyways.

Originally posted by HP Legend
It's not that I refused to acknowledge there existence. It's just you never provided proof of their existence.

Or perhaps it's that you refuse to acknowledge it as such...

Originally posted by HP Legend
Nowhere. I conceed on this particular point that Vader's mistake was created by being pressured by Galen.

Glad to see that you are capable of understanding reason if it's presented to you enough times.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Now as much as you'd like to believe otherwise Galen was equal to Vader (prior to his boost) and even with a boost he still needed a mistake on Vader's part to winOriginally posted by HP Legend and it was equally as plausible Vader could have won the fight (if Galen had made a mistake). It's made note of throughout the fight that the advantage kept changing (they fought back and forth) and that with a boost either could gain the upper hand over the other but in the end it came down to who made a mistake first. The text potrays them as equals. Stop trying to argue otherwise.

I'll reiterate my points here for the last time.

1. Not being fast enough does not constitute a "mistake."

2. The only point at which they are going "back and forth" is when Galen is fighting cautiously in order to assess Vader's capabilities, in every other non circumstantial instance he has the advantage.

3. The boost Vader received only allowed him to replicate a feat Galen accomplished whilst holding back.

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. Which sections? Post something which I ignored and I'll address it. I skipped over some of the fluff that didn't need addressing (because it was you repeating yourself) but I don't think I missed anything of importance.

2. Um no. You took a line about Galen pressuring Vader's defences out of context and decided he was winning based on it.

1. Mostly you ignoring my explanation for why Vader was able to take Vader off guard in the first place and how Vader has no such excuse, especially considering he was the one who had been training Galen since he was a child. Another would be you not addressing that Galen ragdolled Vader at the end of the fight.

2. I took a several lines showing Galen being notable faster then Vader and using that speed to ultimately overwhelm Vader to show his superiority*

Alright, that'll be the last full response I make to you in this thread. If you bring up any new or relevant points I'll address them but otherwise I'll let others keep banging their heads against the wall if they want.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
1. Mostly you ignoring my explanation for why Vader was able to take Vader off guard in the first place and how Vader has no such excuse, especially considering he was the one who had been training Galen since he was a child. Another would be you not addressing that Galen ragdolled Vader at the end of the fight.

2. I took a several lines showing Galen being notable faster then Vader and using that speed to ultimately overwhelm Vader to show his superiority*

I'll respond to your post tomorrow and hope to clarify some of my points.

1. A) The text literally notes how both Vader and Galen had never faced each other as equals and they circled each other warily which would insinuate Vader was unprepared for Galen as well.

1. B) I did address it though. I argued Vader was injuired which is why Galen ragdolled him. Unless you think Galen could ragdoll the guy who he couldn't ragdoll seconds ago.

2. The passage doesn't note Galen was too fast for Vader. He could just as easily be more skilled.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'll respond to your post tomorrow and hope to clarify some of my points.

1. A) The text literally notes how both Vader and Galen had never faced each other as equals and they circled each other warily which would insinuate Vader was unprepared for Galen as well.

1. B) I did address it though. I argued Vader was injuired which is why Galen ragdolled him. Unless you think Galen could ragdoll the guy who he couldn't ragdoll seconds ago.

2. The passage doesn't note Galen was too fast for Vader. He could just as easily be more skilled.

1. It states that the reason they had never faced each other as equals was because Vader had held back or because Galen had capitulated. This outright states that Vader was hiding his true capabilities ( something that other masters are known to have done with their apprentices ala Dooku and Grievous ) whereas Vader would have been familiar with Galen's capabilities having taught him everything he knows and trained him for over a decade.

It's not a matter of Galen being capable of ragdolling Vader but being willing to imo which is what I've been arguing.

2. It literally notes that Vader struggles to keep Galen's blows from landing on multiple occasions. None of the quotes I posted indicate that this comes about as a result of superior skill on Galen's part.

This is why I always disliked TFU plot. You basically get an OP scaling protagonist who, by the end of the game, after killing like three or so Jedi can now beat up Vader. Also, what is up with his power scaling? He goes from getting ragdolled by Vader to getting revived and then smacking Vader around by the end of the fight.

I don't know, it just never interested me, and I never liked Galen. Plus the reverse Shien grip looks God awful. That's just my personal opinion on the character though. I'm on the fence re: the debate going on. Though I'm quite sure prime Vader would dispose of Starkiller.

I always saw Starkiller as a Maul who had a way stronger connection to the force.

Originally posted by Beelzebub
1. It states that the reason they had never faced each other as equals was because Vader had held back or because Galen had capitulated. This outright states that Vader was hiding his true capabilities ( something that other masters are known to have done with their apprentices ala Dooku and Grievous ) whereas Vader would have been familiar with Galen's capabilities having taught him everything he knows and trained him for over a decade.

It's not a matter of Galen being capable of ragdolling Vader but being willing to imo which is what I've been arguing.

2. It literally notes that Vader struggles to keep Galen's blows from landing on multiple occasions. None of the quotes I posted indicate that this comes about as a result of superior skill on Galen's part.

1. Seriously? You didn't refute my point you just argued a bunch of gibberish not supported by the text at all.

"They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. "

1. A) I'm sure you understand warily means cautiously or carefully. If Vader knew his apprentice inside and out surely he wouldn't have been wary. He's dealing with unknown strength just like Galen is and you saying "well hurr durr he trained Galen so he should know him" isn't supported by the text at all. This is one of the more questionable points you've made. Now I realise this idea that Galen wasn't the only unprepared one may be hard for you to accept so I shall surther supplement it.

"Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."

It says "they". Vader was unprepared for what he is facing because Galen has grown since then Vader has no idea how much better Galen is. He's not sure as to Galen's power and is therefore unsure what Galen will do. Stop acting as though this was all on Galen's side. It makes you look incredibly biased.

1. B) Galen being willing to? Oh boy this is too good to be true. Galen is worried he'll descend down to The Dark Side if he kills Vader but ragdolling Vader would be an easy kill free way to overpower Vader so there is no reason for Galen to not ragdoll Vader. Especially since even when he realises a better way to win he still overpowers Vader in sabers first rather than ragdolling him which should indicate prior to Vader's injuries he was incapable of doing so.

2. There is no indication it's due to speed either. The text doesn't note it.

Originally posted by Meatpants
This is why I always disliked TFU plot. You basically get an OP scaling protagonist who, by the end of the game, after killing like three or so Jedi can now beat up Vader. Also, what is up with his power scaling? He goes from getting ragdolled by Vader to getting revived and then smacking Vader around by the end of the fight.

I don't know, it just never interested me, and I never liked Galen. Plus the reverse Shien grip looks God awful. That's just my personal opinion on the character though. I'm on the fence re: the debate going on. Though I'm quite sure prime Vader would dispose of Starkiller.

I always saw Starkiller as a Maul who had a way stronger connection to the force.

The novel indicates that most of Galen's limitations are psychological and come about as a result of Vader's conditioning. As Galen is apart from Vader and starts making his own decision he begins to free himself of these psychological blocks and becomes independent, not restricted by his ties to Vader. The plot's not amazing but it's decent imo. The themes of breaking out of the mold designed for you is pretty much a universally appreciated one and it's done well imo.

Galen is never ragdolled by Vader under normal circumstances so I don't know what you're referring to.

As I said, I personally don't like the story.

I was referring to after Vader runs him through, though I can't see Vader not being able to do that under normal circumstances at that point in time. It's only after this that Galen gets the God boost.

The game was never meant to be anything other than a power fantasy. Shit, at the end you beat Vader and Palpatine.

1. Seriously? You didn't refute my point you just argued a bunch of gibberish not supported by the text at all.

I did address your point. I noted that they'd never faced each other as equals because Vader held back and that Vader would have logically been aware of Galen's general abilities since he raised and trained him for over a decade and was the sole source of all Galen's knowledge in the Force and in lightsaber combat.

1. A) I'm sure you understand warily means cautiously or carefully. If Vader knew his apprentice inside and out surely he wouldn't have been wary.

Why not? If he's aware of Galen's general capabilities then he knows he's facing a being who's more powerful then himself. Any rational individual would approach an opponent who's likely more powerful then oneself carefully. That's why Vader approaches Galen's clone cautiously in TFUII despite being well aware of what he was capable of and having weakened him beforehand.

Originally posted by HP Legend
He's dealing with unknown strength just like Galen is and you saying "well hurr durr he trained Galen so he should know him" isn't supported by the text at all.

It's not stated by the text but it is supported by logic and common sense. I can see you don't necessarily possess and abundance of these traits though.

Originally posted by HP Legend
This is one of the more questionable points you've made. Now I realise this idea that Galen wasn't the only unprepared one may be hard for you to accept so I shall surther supplement it. It says "they". Vader was unprepared for what he is facing because Galen has grown since then Vader has no idea how much better Galen is. He's not sure as to Galen's power and is therefore unsure what Galen will do.

Again, as I noted, logic and common sense dictate that Vader should mostly be aware of what Galen's capable of given his favored position as his sole instructor for over a decade. While he might not necessarily know EVERYTHING about his apprentice from a combative standpoint, he should know just about all there is.

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. B) Galen being willing to? Oh boy this is too good to be true. Galen is worried he'll descend down to The Dark Side if he kills Vader but ragdolling Vader would be an easy kill free way to overpower Vader so there is no reason for Galen to not ragdoll Vader.

How exactly does ragdolling Vader help Galen do anything other then eat up his own reserves of energy if he's not willing to follow through and kill Vader?

Originally posted by HP Legend
Especially since even when he realises a better way to win he still overpowers Vader in sabers first rather than ragdolling him which should indicate prior to Vader's injuries he was incapable of doing so.

I don't see how it would indicative of that since there's no reason such an injury would have hampered Vader's ability to defend himself against Galen's Force attack.

Originally posted by HP Legend
2. There is no indication it's due to speed either. The text doesn't note it.

https://i.imgur.com/ohDKCIO.jpg

The novel directly notes that Galen's tactics revolve around being "fast and sly" where Vader's rely on being "strong and relentless."

"Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly." - The Force Unleashed.

Originally posted by ares834
The game was never meant to be anything other than a power fantasy. Shit, at the end you beat Vader and Palpatine.

Palpatine throws it, Galen didn't legitimately beat the emperor, not even close.

I don't care. I'm talking about the game where this is not implied at all. The game was never meant to be more than a power fantasy, that was my point.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by ares834
I don't care. I'm talking about the game where this is not implied at all.
Uh, yes it was. In the light side scenario he's "defeated," and prompts you to kill him to push you over the edge to the dark side, as is his modus operandi. Then in the dark side scenario he crushes you like an ant when you try to backstab him. How does this not imply that he was holding back in the light side scenario?

Just because he defeats Galen in the DS ending does not suggest that the two can't have a competitive battle and that Galen is incapable of winning. This is made even more apparent when he manages to block Palpatine's lightning barehanded in the canon ending.

Regardless, this is all irrelevant to my initial statement.

Originally posted by ares834
Just because he defeats Galen in the DS ending does not suggest that the two can't have a competitive battle and that Galen is incapable of winning. This is made even more apparent when he manages to block Palpatine's lightning barehanded in the canon ending.
How does Galen sacrificing himself to momentarily stop the Emperor's lightning make it apparent that he could defeat the Emperor? I mean, Vader did him one better and killed the Emperor in a similar situation, but no one seriously contends that Vader could have a competitive battle with him based on that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
but no one seriously contends that Vader could have a competitive battle with him based on that.
if only you were right

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How does Galen sacrificing himself to momentarily stop the Emperor's lightning make it apparent that he could defeat the Emperor? I mean, Vader did him one better and killed the Emperor in a similar situation, but no one seriously contends that Vader could have a competitive battle with him based on that.

Similar situation? Starkiller was using the force to block Sheev's lightning, he didn't catch Sheev off guard. The situations aren't similar in the slightest. And it was several seconds, comparable to how long Yoda blocked it. I certainly wouldn't use the word "momentarily".

But more importantly, I said "more apparent". The sequence alone does not make it apparent that Galen can have a competitive battle.

Originally posted by ares834
Similar situation? Starkiller was using the force to block Sheev's lightning, he didn't catch Sheev off guard. The situations aren't similar in the slightest. And it was several seconds, comparable to how long Yoda blocked it. I certainly wouldn't use the word "momentarily".

But more importantly, I said "more apparent". The sequence alone does not make it apparent that Galen can have a competitive battle.

Doesn't matter, Vader still tanked through his lightning which was something even Windu couldn't do. Yet somehow some people still lowball Vader below Maul and Dooku level for some reason?

God you're a retard.

*Getting completely assraped by Maul's doppelganger

Originally posted by RealistRacism
*Getting completely assraped by Maul's doppelganger

And he still won anyway :/

"Nearly died to ESB Luke"
Yeh, no

Shall we ignore Maul's low showings ?

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Shall we ignore Maul's low showings ? Name them, I hate Maul.

Boi Maul also sucks which makes Vader even worse :/

Either stomp Grievous though.

Darth Thor shying away from the truth once again

The truth being that Maul last 10 seconds against Grievous on a good day

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Darth Thor shying away from the truth once again

The truth being that Maul last 10 seconds against Grievous on a good day

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
And he still won anyway :/
Doesn't matter, he was still inferior to a Maul doppelganger

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Shall we ignore Maul's low showings ?
No way, bring them all up so we can laugh at him too

Maul has

Nearly died to tusken raiders, nearly died to a dog, nearly died to a wampa, nearly died to Qui-Gon, nearly died to Pre Vizla, nearly died to Obi-Wan twice, nearly died to a 10 year old, nearly died to pirates, nearly died to Komari Vosa, was killed by a toying Sidious

This is before you even bring in his Canon failures lol

Pre Vizsla lost to Ahsoka too.

Anakin >> Dark Side Barriss >> Ahsoka > Vizsla = Maul.

0_o

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
0_o o_0

bro u brought it up

This literally never happened, though.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
bro u brought it up

dont spar with me maggot the tcw books and comics count just not the disease ridden show :angryface:

ur just salty coz grivus got his sh!t kiked in on the show

everyone did though

dooku dies to pirates
kenobi dies to cad bane
mace windu gets hit by villagers

the show is trash

Maul dies to a blaster shot from Pirates and has to get help from his brother. That's why we should keep the show.

Absolutely right once again

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Darth Thor shying away from the truth once again

The truth being that Maul last 10 seconds against Grievous on a good day



Clearly triggered.


Originally posted by RealistRacism
Maul dies to a blaster shot from Pirates and has to get help from his brother. That's why we should keep the show.


Oh id take Pirates over Gungans any day

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clearly triggered

A whole army of Gungans piling on top of Grievous isn't worse than a few blaster shots though