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Fury Caedus

Non injured, in pure sabers about 5.

Force powers are allowed I don't know, probably a decent bit more than that.

2

5

3 make it.

sam se kurwa idź do gymu
wyjebane

umierać!

more appropiate as DIE equivalent would be

ZDYCHAJ KURWA

Originally posted by CactusJoe
5

Originally posted by gold slorg
sam se kurwa idź do gymu
wyjebane

K U R W A
U
R
W
A

Originally posted by Xiggy
2

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Non injured, in pure sabers about 5.



> Kyle stalemates Caedus in sabers with 3 feebs
> 3 feebs combined might is said to be far less than one Katarn
> Jacen is at a disadvantage in sabers and ops for Force
> Caedus fan thinks he can beat 4 Katarn's in pure sabers

If Denning's writing, more than two.

Originally posted by Xiggy
> Kyle stalemates Caedus in sabers with 3 feebs
> 3 feebs combined might is said to be far less than one Katarn
> Jacen is at a disadvantage in sabers and ops for Force
> Caedus fan thinks he can beat 4 Katarn's in pure sabers

1.Caedus was injured, irrelevant and he held a margiinal upper hand.

2.Factually incorrect, Katarn is>1 "Feeb" by a considerable amount, there's no proof he can take 2, nor is there proof he's more powerful than all 3 combined massively.

3.Jacen chose force and then stomped them yeah but he still held the upperhand in sabers, albeit it was marginal.

4.You're right, make that 4 Caedus loses to.

Just as an aside shift to discord Zigg.

We can discuss it there along with our previously unfinished topics on the character.

Either that or don't bother responding here, I know I won't.

1 - Read the thread. Same Caedus that fought there is fighting here


2 - He's mostly healed. Having bathed in bacta juice (miracle fluid) The injuries he received from Luke aren't out of it's medical reach and the fluids are known to accelerate the healing process from months to hours. This is on top of having Force healing abilities and enough time to put them to use between fighting Luke untill facing Katarn in the next book.


3 - The injuries aren't a major plot point. Jacen only notes them when things are going horrendously south for himself - getting battered by a lone Jedi knight after being shot :





4 - Force users circumvent injuries with their magic powers all the time. Darksiders feed off them. Jacen is especially proficient in this art. So given that his injuries are only negatively mentioned in the most extreme moment of the fight... it's probable that they were a complete non factor. Possible that they were actually helping him in every moment until he was struggling to parry some random fodder's strikes.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Either that or don't bother responding here, I know I won't.

Discord isn't a skirt to hide under. You'll just swerve me there anyway. As you have done every time I critically pick apart Caedus.

I've made an argument here. If you address it here you're less likely to misrepresent my points.

I'll respond to this. Maybe, if I can be bothered...

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
I'll respond to this. Maybe, if I can be bothered...

I'm not expecting anything. I'm use to these quiet concessions when discussing Caedus. So there's no pointing in switching to discord on that token.

Also I got the names of the Jedi assisting Kyle wrong:

Valin Horn
Thann Mithric
Kolir Hu'lya

All featless. Probably the worst strike team ever sent to fight the reigning Sith lord of the time. And you're trying to say that Kyle is only better than one of them, and not the whole bunch. Lol

That's means Kyle takes a hit to his reputation - and therefore Caedus does too.

Pretty sure Katarn was better than all of them collectively.

Valin also isn't featless, tbh.

'Lemme just go on the discord and check out some respect threads real quick.'

Caedus was clearly not at full power in his fight with Katarn:



Caedus may draw on pain, but the net effect of his injuries from the Luke duel still seem to be negative, even if not as negative as someone without his pain thing would have.

I mean, it's been made abundantly clear that his injuries were hindering him(the same way they hindered him when he fought Mara and Jaina). His strength was noted as slipping because of the pain.

Also worth noting that Caedus had no intention of truly killing Katarn. He wanted him specifically alive so he can torture him and get info on where Luke was. So that's also something to consider.

Been there. Debunked that.

Nothing is clear in abundance how Jacen's mostly healed injuries are affecting him. Not during the majority of the fight - where Katarn's team are matching him in sabers and whatnot. The is only one time where the injury is admonished. When Jacen gets hit with a blaster bolt :




Of course, there is a noticeable dip in his performance and composure when his previous injuries are mentioned. He's gone from being largely above the three Jedi knights in question to struggling against a single one while concentrating for sporadic blaster bolts. So his injuries are only used as an excuse when things are going terribly sour for him.

Now obviously Caedus' injuries are being clutched like pearls. There's a vested interest in upholding his reputation from obvious culprits - those who've juxtaposed him to Yoda in the saber department once upon-a-time. Myth lord, Ellimist and DC77. Yet they haven't proved that they're a big deal, or that he'd be performing much better without them.

Yoda easily defeated three combatants who sh!t all over Caedus' opponents, whilst unarmed and holding back.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DM3VXFZUQAAhQdW.jpg

The fact that his injuries are only used as an excuse when things are going (rather horrendously) south for him indicates a lack of relevance to the rest of the fight yes. The noticeable dip in his performance at this point is evidence of that :

- He can match Katarn and his team in sabers at the beginning of the fight

- He's admonishes his injuries while struggling to parry one of the Jedi Knights on the team




There's nothing magic about their mention. He's admonishes them after he's been hit with a blaster bolt. And while his concentration is being divided by other sporadic blasters bolts that could hit him. That's when the injuries are mentioned.

No, it would be like mentioning Starkiller's brief moment of rage amp during the Vader fight. And applying said temporary state to the rest of the fight. His exhaustion however is something that obviously affected him during the majority of the battle.

And of course, one can not amp themselves from exhaustion. Caedus' can amp himself from some mostly healed injuries.

Originally posted by Xiggy
The fact that his injuries are only used as an excuse when things are going (rather horrendously) south for him indicates a lack of relevance to the rest of the fight yes.

Or the narrator doesn't have to immediately mention every piece of information right away. The fight with Luke happened long before the fight started.

And again, by the same logic we shouldn't factor the fatigue in at all in TFU II because it's not used as an excuse at any point in the fight.



Or he is dealing with said injury, a blaster bolt injury, multiple distractions and an explicitly enraged Jedi onslaught, and doesn't have to mention it at the start of the fight. But the first factor would've existed from the start. It may have compounded with other factors, but it's mentioned as its own independent hindrance.



His injuries from Luke didn't appear in the middle of the fight though...



Except he clearly notes it as its own hindrance, not as an amp and not as only a problem in conjunction with other things.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or the narrator doesn't have to immediately mention every piece of information right away.

He doesn't have to. But considering broader context :

- The time elapsed between books
- The Medical technology that exponentially accelerates healing (bacta fluids)
- That his injuries from Luke aren't out of their medical scope
- Force powers that also heal
- The fact he can amp himself of injuries

Is a valid reason to mostly ignore them as some worthy hinderance to his fight, until other factors that compede on top of them. Which you've mentioned below :



His ability to deal with said injury, which includes amping himself from it, is being hindered by other factors which logically affect how well he can draw from the force. This is a valid explanation as to why their mention is omitted until things go really badly for him.

Or he didn't bother to mention it at the start of the fight because he was winning. If other factors were the main culprit, then he could've just focused on said other factors, and if he needs to concentrate on dealing with his injuries through the Force, then that clearly suggests that he is being hindered in having to devote energies to doing so.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or he didn't bother to mention it at the start of the fight because he was winning

Or he didn't bother to mention it at the start of the fight because they weren't worth being mentioned. Considering the bullet pointed contextual tid bits above.



The unfortunate problem here is that the Nature of the dark side means that using that power to amp himself with his injuries results in a net positive for himself. This is true for other weaker sith Lords, but especially true for himself - he's a master of the art. His injuries are admonished when other factors (an unexpected blaster bolt and wavered concentration) prevent him from drawing on his powers properly. And we see a massive dip in his performance because of it. Which explains why they are noted at that particular point.

Just as you say their relevance being omitted from the start of the fight doesn't contradict the notion that they're hindering him. I can easily say that the idea he's being amped - until other events transpire - isn't contradicted either. And my premise is supported by additional context.

The other issue of course, is that the mostly healed injuries he had already received could have easily gotten worse as the fight progressed. Imagine having a sprained angle that's mostly healed, but running on it intensely could cause tears and build up of lactic acid which makes said injury feel worse at the tail end of the race as oppose to the beginning - where Katarn's team were matching him in sabers. That including the bolt he unexpectedly took and his wavered concentration, do explain why his injuries are only mentioned then.

"He wasn't yet recovered" implies that he hadn't recovered, not that he recovered and then it got reopened.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"He wasn't yet recovered" implies that he hadn't recovered, not that he recovered and then it got reopened.

He does't have to be fully recovered for wounds to get or simply feel worse after a bout of strenuous movements - such as struggling to block the lone Jedi knight attacking him relentlessly, all while his powers are being wavered by split concentration and a fresh blaster wound.

Even with your interpretation, the wounds are obviously still hindering him. Regardless of when they started,I don't think the drastic drop of performance happened suddenly after he dispatched Katarn.
He would've felt it even while battling Kyle.

-

Originally posted by Xiggy
He does't have to be fully recovered for wounds to get or simply feel worse after a bout of strenuous movements - such as struggling to block the lone Jedi knight attacking him relentlessly, all while his powers are being wavered by split concentration and a fresh blaster wound.

All of these mental contortions just to explain why Caedus didn't necessarily bother mentioning his injuries at the very beginning of the fight while his attention was devoted to the tactical situation?

BTW, I know the purpose of these Caedus threads has been to lowball Caedus, but you haven't even established why Katarn is weak in the first place. He could be Dooku+ level for all you know.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dooku+ level for all you know.
Yeah just kill yourself

The mental contortions are from your camp. To explain why they're some big factor at the beginning of the fight despite the lack of evidence and a dubious omission. What I'm doing is applying context. I do this by actually reading the story and taking note of things like character traits and the expanded lore. I conclude that the injuries are mostly healed and that Jacen can strengthen himself off them anyway. And guess what.... the book in question tells me exactly that :





Excerpt taken some time before the Katarn fight. Jacen notes the wounds he received form Luke strengthen him. A pretty consistent trait. Perhaps the only consistant trait regarding him. This ability tends to only be impeded in truly overwhelming situations or over some period of time spent fighting. So like I said... there's no reason to believe these - mostly healed - injuries were hindering him until they get mentioned.

To the contrary, he's actually being strengthened by them to some extent, until things go really badly.

It's like I said to DC77... just because we're examining an aggregate of Jacen's feats - bar the single time he didn't get one-shotted by Luke or subjective blurbs - doesn't mean we're lowballing. Lowballing would be lambasting that time he ran away from some random mandolorion and dubbing that his true depiction. Just because my lips aren't wrapped round his cock doesn't make me a lowballer. I'm simply trying to have a conversation in good faith and give an accurate interpretation of his power level. Your interests seem to be elsewhere, hence the false equivalence to TFUII Starkiller.



I never said he was weak. But he has to be very very exceptionally strong to justify Caedus as Yoda tier - being someone who's out of his rag doll range and can match him with 3 complete noobs while the Sith lord himself is amped beyond usual. I consider Kyle's hype and age and say that Qui Gon Jinn level is generously appropriate. Which isn't exactly weak. Just not good enough to satisfy you.



Well... I find the notion that he's above Dooku very unlikely Andy. The Count wins in the hype department even as a Jedi - a once-in-a 900 years lightsaber prodigy. Trained from infancy within a well established order. I doubt Luke could just find another duellist like that when he was scrounging for trainees. And of course, Dooku gets a boon as a Sith lord.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He could be Dooku+ level for all you know.

Also Andy,

It's very rich that we'd have to throw a massive bone to Katarn and give him the benefit of the doubt that you certainly wouldn't give other nebulously placed Jedi/sith. Even when you go as far as dubbing everyone who's not in your favourite circle of characters trash

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-04-2018/5W78eC.gif

I mean.. Kao Cen Darach could be Dooku+ level for all you know

Post will be in the coming days.

Originally posted by Xiggy
The mental contortions are from your camp. To explain why they're some big factor at the beginning of the fight despite the lack of evidence and a dubious omission. What I'm doing is applying context. I do this by actually reading the story and taking note of things like character traits and the expanded lore. I conclude that the injuries are mostly healed and that Jacen can strengthen himself off them anyway. And guess what.... the book in question tells me exactly that :

So Starkiller wasn't meaningfully exhausted against Vader then, right? Because Starkiller never mentions that as a hindering factor; he mentions before the fight that it exists and he is rectifying it, just as how Caedus mentioned he was injured before the fight, and then in Starkiller's case it's never brought up again, nor does it factor into any of his tactical calculations.



I mean, he can tell himself and Niathal that all he wants, but that doesn't match up well to his commentary in the actual fight. If the blaster bolt is the problem, why doesn't he isolate said blaster bolt as the problem, and not his previous injuries? And why can't he draw on the blaster bolt for strength the same way he draws on the previous stuff? The wording of the statement doesn't sound like the wound was being exacerbated by, what was it you said - moving around or something, and if so it would only serve to show how tenuous and shaky his alleged lack of concern over the injury really was, if just walking around would weaken him.

Furthermore, what even happens before the blaster bolt injury that meaningfully compares Caedus to Katarn? That he called Katarn a "threat"? What does that even mean? That he couldn't just ragdoll him?

This is all based on the idea that there is a discrepancy that needs rationalizing in the first place. There isn't - Caedus's narrative perspective doesn't require him to immediately list all aspects of the fight at the same time.



Scaling backwards from Yoda, Sidious, and Mace's supremacy quotes, in confluence with the generally large gap between Ancient Sith of the Week and every Jedi of a certain era, leads to the conclusion that any pre-Yoda Jedi aside from Revan (and maybe the HoT) were significantly weaker than the top dogs of the PT, which was the context of that quote. That's a pretty easy to justify argument that has nothing to do with arbitrary biases.

On the other hand, your only case for Kyle Katarn being weak is that you don't think he has enough feats, even though the logical conclusion should be to use Caedus as the anchor between the two, not the relative unknown.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Starkiller wasn't meaningfully exhausted against Vader then, right?

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. He was very exhausted against Vader. More exhausted than he'd ever been at every fiber of his being. The situation(s) are mutually exclusive. Unless you can find a passage claiming that an empty tank strengthens Starkiller.



It's very simple. The wounds do strengthen him. This should be assumed the default paradigm for Caedus until stated otherwise. That Caedus claimed those exact wounds fuel his power and then presents them as a negative in an exceptional situation, does not mean this ability has disappeared wholesale. It just means that this power is impeded in that moment. You only need a novice level of research on how Jedi and Sith wield their powers to come to that conclusion. If we look at the fight itself :


#1 - Long before the fight Caedus claims the (mostly healed) injuries strengthen him
#2 - He routinely amps himself from pain and injury
#3 - Caedus fights evenly with Kyle & Noobs
#4 - He Incapacitates Kyle via trickery
#5 - Kyle is superior to the collective triad of trainees
#6 - The Neophyte trio assail him and are "doomed to lose"
#7 - A unexpected blaster bolt is redirected at his leg
#8 - His attention is split between the saber fight, unpredictable trajectories of blind blaster fire and the Jedi redirecting bolts at him
#9 - His performance level dips massively - Struggles to block the strikes from one of the trio in question
#10 - It's in this moment he laments all his injuries


Just because #10 is a thing doesn't mean points #1 and 2# are debunked. If you apply context it is clear to see why #7 and #8 mean that his usual power to draw from his pain is hindered. That power was never presented as something indefinite and it can be compromised in extreme circumstances. All Force powers are activated by thoughts and emotions. They are sustained by a degree of concentration. You can imagine that Jedi enter a quasi trance-like state where the Force "guides their actions" in a sense but also obeys their command. However, they can be forcibly yanked out of that trance by an unexpected distraction and have difficulty re-entering that clairvoyant state when their mind is elsewhere.


http://freegifmaker.me/video/15442287201174714.gif


A simple visual does this phenomena some justice. A more complex example is how Bane handles Kasim. The battle-master is more seasoned, but overwhelming force power means that Bane can react to anything he does and drive the instructor back. This is until Kasim presents him with an unfamiliar talent in fighting with two blades at once. Suddenly Bane's power advantage is compromised as his mind is less focussed on emotions that strengthen his own connection to the Darkside but rather is flooded with all the possible angels his opponent can attack from. Caedus is in a similar yet even less familiar predicament, where his attentions are focused on overcoming the severe tactical situation itself, rather than strengthening his connection to the dark side with his anger hatred and physical pain :





Not only does this premise work from a technical standpoint and is the most logical conclusion to follow - his pain amplifying powers didn't just vanish during the entirety of the fight - it's also probably what the author intended. if you care about intentions. After all... He had Caedus claim the (mostly healed) injuries from Luke empowered him. It makes sense that he created a exceptional situation where they wouldn't have and only then have Caedus lament those injuries as a hinderance. This is not a lesson in mental gymnastics. It's called reading the book and then applying context. We can do the same to Starkiller and come to the conclusion that he's in no fit shape to fight a regular club bouncer. Caedus on the other hand, is at full strength when fighting Katarn and then some.

As for Katarn and his standing in the history of the Jedi order. That all the Jedi before the prequels are in the trash bin because of quotes found on the back of chocolate bar wrappings, and the a rare few PT top dogs are truly exceptional to be above everyone that had a name and a lightsaber, tells me that Katarn is more likey to dwell amongst everyone who existed in the 20,000 years before, as someone without the required accolades. Even though he technically skirts the quotes by existing after their chronological expiration date.

Even if I give him all the generosity in the world compare this stormtrooper Luke dug up when tying to revive the Jedi Order to prime Obi Wan (even though he has a few years on Old ben)

Caedus is still far from the Yoda combatant you want him to be, and not even on level with Dooku. Because the latter can dispose of Obi Wan in a direct manner with Anakin to pressure him. Jacen has to use some underhanded advantage of environment to rid Kyle with a few nobodies assisting him.

Originally posted by Xiggy
I don't know why you keep bringing this up. He was very exhausted against Vader. More exhausted than he'd ever been at every fiber of his being. The situation(s) are mutually exclusive. Unless you can find a passage claiming that an empty tank strengthens Starkiller.

Your argument re: Caedus is that Caedus doesn't bother to mention his injuries as a hindering factor at the start of the fight, so they must not have been a problem and we should try to come up with reasons as to why. Well Starkiller doesn't mention his fatigue as a hindering factor at all, so by your logic, we should come up with reasons as to why (which is easy - time to recover + intense motivation / adrenaline). Starkiller mentions before he knew he was going to fight Vader that he is exhausted, just like how Caedus mentions before the fight begins that he is injured, but then there's an ambiguous time lapse.




OK, you still haven't explained:

1. That he gets blindsided by the blaster bolt, so his concentration is slipping before that injury.
2. Why he doesn't mention the blaster injury as a greater problem than his injuries from Luke.
3. Why we should even care, since he is dominating the fight before the blaster bolt anyway.

The most you can conclude is that his injuries strengthen him in very specific ways, but that this strength is extremely flimsy - it can give him a +15 buff passively but even the slightest distraction or aggravation and it turns into a -30. That may be better than other characters for which it's consistently a -15, but then we circle back to point #3, which is why whether he wasn't hindered at the start of the fight even matters. I guess you've demonstrated that Caedus can't ragdoll Katarn? Are you trying to note that he viewed Katarn as a "threat"? Because someone having a 5% chance of killing you is still a significant "threat", especially given that his injuries can be aggravated into hinderances at the slightest provocation.



Well:

1. Those "chocolate bar wrappings" still hold weight when there are like 15 of them.

2. As I'm sure you know, there are multiple sources that are clearly not the back of "chocolate bar wrappings", like the RotS novelization.

The logic is pretty simple: Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and there are three Jedi who can to varying levels compete with Sidious (Yoda, Mace, and, whether you agree, Anakin), so they get dragged far above the ancient Jedi who were always vastly weaker than the top Ancient Sith.



You're assuming that whatever factor caused the PT to have so many powerhouses went away with the Jedi Order. For whatever IU reason (poor balance of the Force maybe? Mortis?), the few decades surrounding the movies have spawned more potent Force users than the entire previous history of the Old Republic.