Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

.

likely below Exar Kun, and so below SF Malak

High Vader tier.

POD Bane level

What does POD stand for?

Why did you switch accounts just to comment on your own thread? :/

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Why did you switch accounts just to comment on your own thread? :/ I didn't.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
What does POD stand for?

Path of Destruction.

OT-Trash tier.

Well, Ajunta Pall is more powerful than Muur to my knowledge, and Karness Muur drove back Vader so...

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Well, Ajunta Pall is more powerful than Muur to my knowledge, and Karness Muur drove back Vader so...

I'm tired right now and don't remember when Karness drove back Vader. Can you provide some scans or quotes to show me when this happened?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4589284-karnessstopvader.jpg

Originally posted by Lord GOAT
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4589284-karnessstopvader.jpg

Thanks.

Thanks Goat.

His Shadow Hand is Karness Muur, thus affording him some form of parity with ANH Vader and even Darth Krayt.

He is however canonically sub Marka Ragnos, and is probably sub Tulak Hord too. Obviously he doesn't begin to touch Exar Kun by virtue of this.

Originally posted by AncientPower
His Shadow Hand is Karness Muur, thus affording him some form of parity with ANH Vader and even Darth Krayt.

He is however canonically sub Marka Ragnos, and is probably sub Tulak Hord too. Obviously he doesn't begin to touch Exar Kun by virtue of this. You overate Kun.

He is probably mid Bane tier.

Kun is canonically the most powerful of the ancient Sith lineage.

In other words, you're wrong for the thousandth time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kun is canonically the most powerful of the ancient Sith lineage.

In other words, you're wrong for the thousandth time. Literally everyone disagrees with you, sorry bud.

But I do like your ranking of other ancient Sith Lords.

I don't give a shit if people agree with a canon statement.

But you disregard the Sidious supremacy quotes...

I specifically said I don't disregard them, I simply don't see a reason to afford them word of God status when not only are none of them infallible OOU Legends sources, but Leland Chee doesn't hold them in that regard either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I specifically said I don't disregard them, I simply don't see a reason to afford them word of God status when not only are none of them infallible OOU Legends sources, but Leland Chee doesn't hold them in that regard either.

You seem to take the Exar Kun quotes as binding though. Likewise, you take Ragnos > Nihilus as binding even though Nihilus has quite obviously greater feats. I don't think you've been very consistent in determining when you accept accolades and when you don't. If you're using a feats >>>>>> accolades paradigm, there's absolutely no way you take Ragnos > Nihilus seriously.

I would think Ragnos can take Nihilus in a duel though.

Originally posted by Lord GOAT
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4589284-karnessstopvader.jpg

I don't see how this comic proves Muur has parity with ANH Vader. The talisman's "power to stop Vader" is by turning all the Stormtroopers into Rakghouls. It's not like Muur directly attacked Vader and was shown to be in his level. Heck, kind of the opposite. Morne releases the power of the amulet, and Vader just stands there unaffected. Just because Celeste Morne believes Muur has the "power to stop Vader," this is not even remotely proof that Muur>=Vader. All it shows is that the Sith Alchemy provided by his talisman is enough to stall Vader long enough for Morne to escape certain death.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You seem to take the Exar Kun quotes as binding though. Likewise, you take Ragnos > Nihilus as binding even though Nihilus has quite obviously greater feats. I don't think you've been very consistent in determining when you accept accolades and when you don't. If you're using a feats >>>>>> accolades paradigm, there's absolutely no way you take Ragnos > Nihilus seriously.

I take them as binding because they're reinforced in OOU Legends sources and the overall narratives of TOTJ, JAT and SofP.

But no Marka Ragnos' spirit's restoration requiring a dozen times more power than it takes to channel the power to ragdoll an armada of Star Destroyers is pretty concretely > Darth Nihilus.

Ffs, forget being 'comparable' to Vader, Muur sh!ts all over him. The whole 'I could overthrow Palpatine with the Talisman's power' and 'Muur would be like a new Master to me' obviously implies a massive gap in power. Vader's improvement couldn't have been drastic either, since he's only Luke-level by RotJ.

Kun scales easily above him, and therefore stomps the fvck out of Vader as well.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ffs, forget being 'comparable' to Vader, Muur sh!ts all over him. The whole 'I could overthrow Palpatine with the Talisman's power' and 'Muur would be like a new Master to me' obviously implies a massive gap in power. Vader's improvement couldn't have been drastic either, since he's only Luke-level by RotJ.

Kun scales easily above him, and therefore stomps the fvck out of Vader as well.
ROTJ Luke who is likely better than Darth Maul, Obi Wan and Dooku

'Likely' according to you, but not Lucas; Dooku > RotS Kenobi >/= Old Ben >> Vader = RotJ Luke. Not that Maul, Obi-Wan or even Dooku are on Kun's level anyway.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
'Likely' according to you, but not Lucas; Dooku > RotS Kenobi >/= Old Ben >> Vader = RotJ Luke. Not that Maul, Obi-Wan or even Dooku are on Kun's level anyway. No.

Lucas' words are Canon, tough luck.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ffs, forget being 'comparable' to Vader, Muur sh!ts all over him. The whole 'I could overthrow Palpatine with the Talisman's power' and 'Muur would be like a new Master to me' obviously implies a massive gap in power. Vader's improvement couldn't have been drastic either, since he's only Luke-level by RotJ.

Kun scales easily above him, and therefore stomps the fvck out of Vader as well.

Since when is Vader's personal fears and speculation irrefutable fact? Does this mean you also think ESB Luke>RotS Anakin because Vader thought Luke was more powerful than Anakin in Shadows of the Empire?

Let's face it, the one time the power of the Muur Talisman was used against Vader, it did nothing to him. So objectively speaking, Vader>The Muur Talisman.

Heck, why are we even arguing this? The Muur Talisman=/=Muur himself. The whole point of Sith talismans, amulets, gauntlets, and other artifacts is that they make the user far more powerful than they would otherwise be. For example, Naga Sadow does not have the power to destroy suns on his own. But with the power of his ship, any force sensitive has the power to do so. Exar Kun could not kill the Sith Wyrm on his own. But with Naga Sadow's amulet and the power of the Yavin IV temple, he blasted a hole straight through it.

So even if the Muur Talisman made Vader powerful enough to overthrow Palpatine (which would only require raising Vader's power 25-30%, based off of Vader being 80% of Sheev), this doesn't mean Muur himself>Vader by any stretch of the imagination.

AJUNTA FOREVER
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA


LONG LIVE ANCIENTS
LONG LIVE ANCIENTS
LONG LIVE ANCIENTS

Originally posted by gold slorg
AJUNTA FOREVER
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA
AJUNTA


LONG LIVE ANCIENTS
LONG LIVE ANCIENTS
LONG LIVE ANCIENTS Wow...

@Underachiever59
Lmao, we shouldn't need these mental gymnastics to find an answer, when we're already given one in the comic. Your grasping at straws is ****ing hilarious, since it has absolutely nothing to do with irrational fear or speculation. Vader admits inferiority upon sensing the Talisman, which means Muur's more powerful than himself - by a large margin. This isn't based on hearsay or hype, this is Vader sensing the power and admitting he's far weaker.

25-30% is the minimum required, but it doesn't mean the Talisman is limited to only that percentage. If we're talking power in relation to the Emperor, the numbers would look something more like this; Vader 80% Muur 90%. Keep in mind Vader's 80% would be more like; 80,000,000,000 to the Emperors 100,000,000,000 with Muur being around 90,000,000,000. Vader's an equal to RotJ Luke, who can't even touch Palpatine.

So your evidence for the Talisman =/> Wielder is the fact that they become more powerful when using them? And then to support your case of Muur = Muur Talisman, you use Naga Sadow's Meditation Sphere blowing up stars? An amulet isn't a ship, completely different 'artefact' and scale. It doesn't even matter if Muur is only as powerful as his Talisman, because that's still far more powerful than Vader.

Facts:
- Vader sensed the power of the Muur Talisman, and deemed it to be sufficient enough to overthrow Sheev.
- He also believed it to be so much greater than himself, that he would end up being Muur's Apprentice.

Speculation:
- It was all just fear.
- Talismans >/= Wielders (Irrelevant regardless)

Originally posted by RealistRacism
'Likely' according to you, but not Lucas; Dooku > RotS Kenobi >/= Old Ben >> Vader = RotJ Luke. Not that Maul, Obi-Wan or even Dooku are on Kun's level anyway.

Luke is confirmed to be equal to someone who is 80% of Sidious's powers, he is atleast on their tier. If you are going to take Luca's words as canon then you have to acknowledge that 80% quote.

Also there is nothing that indicates Ben is that much better than Vader lmao.

The Emperor one-shotted Luke with a fraction of his power, and wasn't even phased at the thought of going against he and Vader together.

If Vader's 80% of Sidious, then Maul, Kenobi and Dooku are all higher. Dry those tears, cuck.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Also there is nothing that indicates Ben is that much better than Vader lmao.
He's literally two whole tiers ahead of Vader according to Lucas...

KEK at you using outdated quotes. Old Ben was also stated to have gotten weaker yet per Lucas himself was on Sidious's tier. We have a multitude of quotes stating Sidious grew more powerful after ROTS.

So ANH Sidious>>ROTS Sidious>>>>>>>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Sidious>Old Ben>>>>>>Vader.


KEK, that's utterly ludicrous.

It can't be dated, it's G-Canon lmfao. If George said that Kenobi's on Sheev's tier, then he is. But he didn't.

I guess Dooku does ragdoll the Emperor after all

Using Lucas's outdated system as fact when it's literally the most retarded, contradicted thing ever is pathetically amusing and a poor attempt at lowballing Vader.

A 14 year old's word against Lucas.' Hmm, tough choice.

Just come to terms with Vader's new ranking.

Even though if we use Lucas's outdated system ANH Sidious>>ROTS Sidious>>>>>>>>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Sidious>ANH Kenobi>>>>Vader

Which is a lie.

All I hear are tears

Also A) Why is my age relevant.

B) Nah, I won't come to terms with bullshit.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Also A) Why is my age relevant.

Because your brain's only partially-developed

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DM3VXFZUQAAhQdW.jpg

Yet somehow still surpasses your idiocy.

How stupid does that make you then?

You're still the most retarded user on the forum, with people making excuses for you because of your age.

I'm following Lucas' words and you're just straight up lying. This doesn't need to be dragged on further.

Calling me retarded out of bitterness kek.

Except Lucas has also said Vader is comparable to the likes of Maul and Dooku, both of whom are equal to, if not outright superior to peak Kenobi yet you'll use outdated quotes that state Old Ben>Vader as evidence. Wut.

No. He said Vader's 'now like' Maul or Dooku, as opposed to someone who has the power to surpass the Emperor.

So Vader's closer to Maul or Dooku, than he is to being magnitudes more powerful than Sidious. Big revelation

George also said Luke as of Return of the Jedi is now "an experienced warrior," "his full, mature self," and, "ready to face his final challenge." All of which implies George Lucas views Luke as of Return of the Jedi as Luke with his full potential achieved. And in the ESB Audio Commentary, George made it clear that Luke's potential was enough to overcome Palpatine.

Also, it's factually inaccurate to claim Palpatine wasn't phased at the idea of facing Luke and Vader at the same time. When Luke is stomping Vader at the start of their fight in the RotJ novel, Luke senses Palpatine's deepest emotion, and feels just how terrified the Emperor is of him (paraphrasing, as I'm at work and don't have the quote handy). So Sidious was afraid of RotJ Luke's power. Which can also be inferred from the way he discusses Luke with Vader in both ESB and RotJ. "He could destroy us ," "He has grown powerful. Only together can we turn him," ect.

And yes, Sidious "one-shotted," Luke, but you are ignoring a ton of context around that. Luke wasn't fighting back. It's not like Luke and Sidious had an actual fight. Luke tossed aside his weapon and refused to fight any longer, as the very act of fighting was giving in to the dark side (as stated by Lucas in the RotJ commentary). So Sidious "one-shotted" someone who was actively refusing to fight back. Reeeeal impressive.

I might just make a thread on this when I get home. While I do feel Palpatine>Luke, I feel there's enough evidence to prove that RotJ Luke was intended to be in Palpatine's tier at the time George did the audio commentary for RotJ.

Now you're just flinging sh!t at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. When one thing's been debunked you move onto another, even more ridiculous point. It's getting tiresome. It has been established that Luke is Vader's equal, none of them can touch the Emperor, and Muur is still above Vader.

The fact that you're so desperate you'd even consider bringing up 'Luke might be in Sheev's tier by RotJ' is unbelievable. I'm sparing you further embarrassment by ending this here.

I'm done with this thread Underachiever, and I'm not going to validate your rationalisations by replying to them further.

I mean, if we want to take Lucas literally, then PT era Jedi shit all over RotJ Luke and Vader. Lucas was obviously looking at it from a storytelling point of view, but the actual story and surrounding Legends material utterly contradicts the aforementioned. Just as it's ridiculous to seriously consider Old Ben >> ANH Vader. I mean, Ben sits around and farts all day, Vader is going on missions, immersing himself and honing his power, regularly sparring with droids and stuff.... The most you could realistically argue for is that Ben is roughly equal to ANH Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I take them as binding because they're reinforced in OOU Legends sources and the overall narratives of TOTJ, JAT and SofP.

But no Marka Ragnos' spirit's restoration requiring a dozen times more power than it takes to channel the power to ragdoll an armada of Star Destroyers is pretty concretely > Darth Nihilus.

It is not like Tavion had any idea of how powerful Marka Ragnos was in reality during the ancient times of The Sith. For what we know she could have thought she needed a lot of Dark Side energy to reawaken his ghost. When in reality it was not the case at all. We also know that Tavion was extremely devoted to Marka Ragnos, enough to create a cult. It would make sense she would try to make Marka Ragnos the most powerful Sith Lord ever by absorbing Force nexi with his Scepter.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
He's literally two whole tiers ahead of Vader according to Lucas...
Why don't u watch the fight. If Ben was that much superior to Vader, he would have dominated him yet he didn't did he? They were equals as of A New Hope. That's just a fact. The film showed this, so I'm inclined to go with what the film showed rather than a vague quote by Lucas

Originally posted by Meatpants
I mean, if we want to take Lucas literally, then PT era Jedi shit all over RotJ Luke and Vader. Lucas was obviously looking at it from a storytelling point of view, but the actual story and surrounding Legends material utterly contradicts the aforementioned. Just as it's ridiculous to seriously consider Old Ben >> ANH Vader. I mean, Ben sits around and farts all day, Vader is going on missions, immersing himself and honing his power, regularly sparring with droids and stuff.... The most you could realistically argue for is that Ben is roughly equal to ANH Vader.

This....

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is not like Tavion had any idea of how powerful Marka Ragnos was in reality during the ancient times of The Sith. For what we know she could have thought she needed a lot of Dark Side energy to reawaken his ghost. When in reality it was not the case at all. We also know that Tavion was extremely devoted to Marka Ragnos, enough to create a cult. It would make sense she would try to make Marka Ragnos the most powerful Sith Lord ever by absorbing Force nexi with his Scepter.

That would go against the entire plot of the game if Tavion didn't know how much energy she needed to bring back Ragnos. Logically speaking, she more than likely met his spirit or tried to bring back Ragnos with lesser amount of dark side power but couldn't, which is why she needed multiple Nexi in order to do so.

Btw fun fact you can call this boasting but one kd the followers in the cult said if Ragnos were ti be reborn then all Jedi in the galaxy will die.

Quote?

kuQWAZy4Qcc

For this video skip to 36:10 and 48:13. Tavion mentions how Ragnos will help her destroy all the jedi.

IhyP9DDO_6E&t=89s

For this one skip to the 0:40 mark, Alora says with Ragnos a the Jedi will be destroyed and they'll rule the Galaxy.

Ofc it's boasting, but Tavion does have some knowledge how strong Katarn and Luke are, so she must be extremely confident on Ragnos abilities.

Originally posted by The Merchant
That would go against the entire plot of the game if Tavion didn't know how much energy she needed to bring back Ragnos. Logically speaking, she more than likely met his spirit or tried to bring back Ragnos with lesser amount of dark side power but couldn't, which is why she needed multiple Nexi in order to do so.

Btw fun fact you can call this boasting but one kd the followers in the cult said if Ragnos were ti be reborn then all Jedi in the galaxy will die.

Nadd awakened Sadow's spirit and did not come there to give him Dark Side energy. You don't need Dark Side nexi to reawaken malignant ghosts.

Lol wut? Sadow was alive, in suspended animation then Nadd murdered him. Sadow's spirit was killed off when he possessed Eison Gynt and then reappeared on Yavin IV during Shadow of Revan.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Old Ben was also stated to have gotten weaker yet per Lucas himself was on Sidious's tier. Quote?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol wut? Sadow was alive, in suspended animation then Nadd murdered him. Sadow's spirit was killed off when he possessed Eison Gynt and then reappeared on Yavin IV during Shadow of Revan.

That must be a retcon, then. Because Freedon Nadd went to Yavin 4 to pledge himself to the ancient Sith and learn from their forbidden knowledge. It would make no sense for Nadd to visit Yavin 4 and instantly kill Sadow.

As matter of fact, there is an official statement on that: