Potara vs. Metamoran

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Galan007
Since this topic seems to be coming up more and more, I wanted to compile all the evidence pertaining to the power of Potara fusion vs. Metamoran fusion here for future reference...



Goku first introduces the concept of Metamoran fusion, and states that the fused warrior becomes vastly stronger than the sum of its parts. He then states that the Metamors(the creators of the fusion dance) are "wimps" individually, but became "unbeatable" once they fused:
https://i.imgur.com/P7AIiri.jpg

Metamoran fusion has the stronger being suppress their power to match it with the weaker being, while Potara fusion does not require this -- though it's never mentioned that this suppressed power remains off-limits during the actual fusion:
https://i.imgur.com/pUfSDlc.jpg

When Elder Kai later introduces Potara fusion, he indicates that it is indeed more powerful than Metamoran fusion by saying "it'll work even better!":
https://i.imgur.com/7l1HY3f.jpg

It is only afterward that Elder Kai mentions how Potara is permanent, so apparently this is a different aspect than the 'greater effect' he had mentioned before... It certainly takes KibitoKai by surprise:
https://i.imgur.com/1we1rMv.jpg

Elder Kai also alludes to Potara gleaning some sort of esoteric boost when the fusees are rivals who live to outdo each other:
https://i.imgur.com/HzdIPxc.jpg

Then we have Boohan, who was not at all worried about Goku and Vegeta fusing: "the two together still don't scare me!!":
https://i.imgur.com/iejyDyH.jpg
Given that Boohan had witnessed the effects of Metamoran fusion firsthand, had absorbed a Metamoran-fused being, AND had Piccolo's knowledge at the time, it's possible that this is essentially Boo's way of saying that a theoretical Metamoran fusion between Goku and Vegeta(ie. Gogeta) would not have been able to defeat him... But then he was stomped effortlessly by Potara/Vegetto.


**That's really it from the original manga**


_________________________________________________



Next up is Weekly Jump #28 (1995), which claims Metamoran(unlike Potara, implicitly) unifies Goku+Vegeta's spirit and is therefore able to draw out their power to the max. Accordingly, it states Gogeta would defeat Vegetto in a shorter fight, but that Vegetto would win if the fight runs over 30 minutes:
https://i.imgur.com/HndStCt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SvL3Ldk.jpg
*Note that nothing in the manga suggests that Metamoran is better at unifying the mind/drawing out power than the Potara. Though I guess it does kind of make sense that doing a coordinated dance would unify minds better than just putting on earrings. /shrug

Next up, Daizenshuu 4's entry on the Potara (1995). This basically just repeats Elder Kai's vague "like Fusion, but the effect is greater" statement, with no further clarification. The lack of a time limit is again seemingly separate from the 'greater effect':
https://i.imgur.com/X9WZzJE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kuqNCMN.jpg

Then we get Daizenshuu 7's Potara entry (1996). This one flat-out says Potara fusion has greater power than Metamoran fusion:
https://i.imgur.com/me2b6Jx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5wmIRU3.jpg

Next up, GT Perfect Files Vol.2 (1997). This describes SSJ4 Gogeta/Metamoran as having power "tens of times greater than a single SSJ4":
https://i.imgur.com/Djp7ve8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Nz1JjQ9.jpg

In fact, Toei's official GT site says precisely the same thing about SSJ4 Gogeta, with precisely the same picture as well:
https://i.imgur.com/R3VRBfA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Nz1JjQ9.jpg
(that sort of boost will come up again.)

The Super Exciting Guide (2009) describes the power-up from the Potara as so incredible "it's like multiplying the two characters' power levels together!" The caption even helpfully reads "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto":
https://i.imgur.com/mZ76Brx.jpg

However, the SEG also describes Metamoran fusion as multiplying the two fusees' powers together:
https://i.imgur.com/PaCxMRk.jpg

The Chouzenshuu 4 Potara entry (2013) is pretty much just a reprint of the Daizenshuu 7 entry, and says precisely the same thing about Potara giving more power than Metamoran:
https://i.imgur.com/98C0aYe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5wmIRU3.jpg

Jumping all the way to DBS ep.114 (2017), Vados describes the Potara as increasing Caulifla/Kale's power by "tens of times", which you may recall is the same description earlier given to SSJ4 Gogeta compared with a regular SSJ4:
https://i.imgur.com/1fbZjD5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZRtAZq9.jpg

The DBS Warrior Sticker Wafers Z (2018), put out cards listing the power of SSB Vegetto at 9300 and SSB Gogeta at 9600:
https://i.imgur.com/OZMbgJB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Mvj79Kz.jpg
Certainly not an irrefutable source, but it may as well be mentioned, lol.

And Weekly Jump (2018) has a DBS: Broly promo piece describing Gogeta and Vegetto as "equally-matched ultimate trump cards!!":
https://i.imgur.com/PnnUGcC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7wgGIIT.jpg


Additionally, Gogeta also talks about the power of Metamoran fusion in the Broly film...

Gogeta: "I am Gogeta... The fusion of Goku and Vegeta."
Freeza: "Fusion?"
Gogeta: "You were dead for a long time, so you wouldn't know. This is a tremendous power-up that goes beyond merely adding their two powers together."
https://i.imgur.com/ra4AgVa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EMpLues.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/McPJqHj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wNByHPN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uALkvKZ.jpg
More confirmation that fusion isn't just a 1+1=2 sort of thing... And given the power Gogeta displayed in this film(it could easily be argued that BASE Gogeta > SSB Goku/Vegeta, for example), it does indeed seem more akin to multiplying their powers together, as previous guidebooks have stated.


_________________________________________________



**Regarding the time-limits of fusion**


It was originally stated that Metamoran lasts 30 minutes:
https://i.imgur.com/OxnU3ET.jpg

But we later learned that the power of SSJ3 shortened the fusion time to just 5 minutes:
https://i.imgur.com/cFt3ePV.jpg

And for what it's worth, in GT the power of SSJ4 shortened the fusion time to less than 10 minutes:
https://i.imgur.com/glpRQam.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7GLF33y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xarTKM9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/q5AvItQ.jpg

However, as of the recent Broly film it would seem that the fusion time of Metamoran no longer decreases as the warrior becomes more powerful. It lasts a full 30mins regardless:
https://i.imgur.com/n3RciOg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8vPj0U3.jpg


Where Potara is concerned, we were originally led to believe that it was absolutely permanent and could never be undone:
https://i.imgur.com/1we1rMv.jpg

But as of DBS, we learned that Potara fusion is only permanent when used by Kaioshin. If used by mortals, Potara only lasts a maximum of 1 hour:
https://i.imgur.com/7awNrT4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5Fw6ZtC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6BnzDvQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gFbqLV7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bp1vPHv.jpg

However, in Potara's case the fusion time for mortals DOES decrease when the warrior is hyper-powerful. During the Zamasu arc, Vegetto was only able to exist for a few minutes before the fusion became unstable and timed-out. Gowasu attributed this solely to the power he was generating:
https://i.imgur.com/uvkgumW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Wzufxva.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/p9B5nIr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cOkx6SQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OUsTapH.jpg


_________________________________________________



Personally, I think Potara was intended to be superior to Metamoran back when the material was originally written, but it seems like they are being treated as equal powerups these days... Which I don't really have a problem with(makes things a bit more cohesive that way, imo.) Although it would seem that in Goku and Vegeta's case(because they are so powerful), Metamoran now lasts longer than Potara for them.

DeadpoolXXX
Awesome to have this in one spot. big grin

i've always thought potara > fusion dance because it falls in line with the whole "it was revealed later and is therefore more powerful" concept DBs always had.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
Awesome to have this in one spot. big grin

i've always thought potara > fusion dance because it falls in line with the whole "it was revealed later and is therefore more powerful" concept DBs always had. Well, Goten/Trunks were like half or less the power of Goku/Vegeta.
Vegito in SS1 effortlessly stomped a being that was around 2.5 SS3 Gotenksi. That would indicate an absolutely massive gap.
The Manga then brings down Potara with Zamasu and Kefla, but Vegito still seems at the top, though weaker at the time.

The Metamoran then gets a huge boost apparently, though it seems to be Goku/Vegeta exclusive. Gotenks still stays sub Goku level in comparable transformations, while Gogeta in base...

Galan007
Yeah, Boo-saga Vegetto's power has always been a complete wildcard for me.

As mentioned, Boohan was logically around 2.5x SSJ3 Gotenks. For Vegetto to defeat him as effortlessly as he did indicates that he was at least 2-3x Boohan -- so about 5-7x SSJ3 Gotenks as a complete lowball figure.

Thing is, that was just Vegetto's suppressed SSJ1 power... Bear in mind that after going SSJ1 initially, Vegetto didn't have to increase his power any further, even though he almost certainly could have still powered-up massively in that state(just like Goku and Vegeta can do after they become Super Saiyans.) Moreover, Vegetto at that time would have logically been capable of going SSJ2 right out of the gate as well(both Goku and Vegeta were capable of doing so, after all), but that's neither here nor there.



...And don't even get me started on the anime's depiction of Vegetto. Asininely OP. ermm

cdtm
Seems that way. I really don't like how they imposed a time limit on Potara, but that certainly evens out any advantages one has over the other.


As is, Potara is preferable mainly for it's reliability, ease of use, and lack of restrictions on partners due to no size or power level requirements.

Galan007
thumb up

Though I think where God-level power is concerned, Metamoran is likely the preferred method now. It actually lasts a full 30mins for Goku and Vegeta(not even SSB appears to shorten it), where Potara only lasted a couple minutes after they went SSB.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Galan007
Moreover, Vegetto at that time would have logically been capable of going SSJ2 right out of the gate as well(both Goku and Vegeta were capable of doing so, after all), but that's neither here nor there.

And why not SSJ3?

Kids couldn't even go SSJ2, yet Gotenks eventually reached SSJ3 just fine.

Galan007
It's possible. I'm just saying SSJ2 should have been immediately possible, no extra training/practice required.

StiltmanFTW
thumb up

Great job on the OP, btw.

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

Though I think where God-level power is concerned, Metamoran is likely the preferred method now. It actually lasts a full 30mins for Goku and Vegeta(not even SSB appears to shorten it), where Potara only lasted a couple minutes after they went SSB. confused I wonder why Fusion Dance can withstand the power of SSB, but Gotenks wanted to use ssj3 as a last effort because it made them unfuse quickly doing so. Then ssj4 Gogeta unfused faster also, although GT is in it's own canon.

Galan007
Yeah, I brought that up before.

During the Boo saga when the kids were training in the RoSaT, the power of SSJ3 canceled out their fusion entirely after only 5 minutes:
https://i.imgur.com/cFt3ePV.jpg

So either god ki doesn't affect Metamoran fusion the same way as normal ki(which seems odd given that god ki drastically shortened the duration of Potara fusion as well), OR Toriyama just disregarded established canon and did his own thing, cuz fanservice.

Personally I'd lean toward the latter. /shrug

StiltmanFTW
I guess we could argue that SSJ3's massive ki drain is to blame, huh?

Galan007
Oh I'm sure that was the intent back then. But as mentioned, the power of SSB was haxx enough to shorten even Potara fusion down to just a few minutes, when it was supposed to last an hour:
https://i.imgur.com/rwDCyyH.jpg

So you'd *think* SSB would shorten Metamoran fusion to some extent as well... Though I suppose there are a few somewhat 'logical' possibilities as to why Metamoran's time limit isn't hampered in this film -- the most likely is Toriyama just not giving a f*ck, imo.

But at the end of the day he finally had a fused being actually win a battle in canon(in what could very well be one of the best battles in DB history), so I'll take it. thumb up

Sj_Sharp
Thanks very much for the complete recap Galan.
All in all, given all the informations at our disposal, I still am for a

Vegetto >= Gogeta

power chain.

But I can understand if at the end of the day the two are equal right now, most likely because

Originally posted by Galan007
...Toriyama just not giving a f*ck...

is literally what is happening since 2013.

Genii96
Seeing as base Kefla was far above either caulifa or Kale, would it be Wrong to say, base gogeta/vegito is above either MUI goku or SSB Royal Vegeta?

Sj_Sharp
Originally posted by Genii96
Seeing as base Kefla was far above either caulifa or Kale, would it be Wrong to say, base gogeta/vegito is above either MUI goku or SSB Royal Vegeta?

In canon, base fusions appear to be considerably stronger than the maximum power output of their fusees at the time of fusion:

- base Gotenks >> Ssj Trunks/Ssj Goten
- base Vegetto >> Ssj3 Goku
- base Gogeta > SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta

Concerning Gogeta, MUI is not a power attainable by Goku right now so no, I don't think that current base Gogeta or Vegetto would be > MUI Goku.

Furthermore, MUI is a MASSIVE power boost, which put Goku on his own almost on Blue fusion level, so no, not really.

In the way I see it, if Goku will master MUI at will in the future then yes, a hypothetical fusion of him and Vegeta could factor in MUI power and be much, much stronger than it is right now in base form.

cdtm
*Freeza resurrects Nappa.*

"Uh, you have to be the same size."

*Stares at Goku. Stares at Vegeta*

"The same..... size.

Like you two are."

"What? What are you implying? Kakarrot and I are very close in size." *Looks up at Goku.*. Isn't that right, clown?"

Galan007
*Added a few more tidbits to the OP.

Genii96
Potara seemed stronger in Z tho, I mean SSJ vegito murked buuhan whereas SSJ3 gotenks was matched by super buu. I doubt Vegeta and goku in their normal SSJ forms would be 2-3X Gotenks and trunks in a hypothetical SSJ3 form

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