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The new Matrix films have put a lot of people- and very much so on this board- in a philisophical frame of mind. I was looking through some Hume today and this age-old question came up.

We often have religious threads here but they often descend into a lot of trouble. Maybe this more specific question- a concept that need not be attached to anything other than personal belief- will prove mor einteresting and less contentious.

So, very simply, DO you guys believe in miracles?

Just to keep things simple, I define a miracle as Hume does, as follows:

"a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent."

Where the 'laws of nature' are those established by modern day science so you may not consider them natural, before any Pagans here get annoyed.

So... opinions? Thoughts? Experiences, even?

I have a small child, so yes, I truely believe in miracles!

Ah yes... but I do rather think that is a miracle in the colloquial sense, rather than the sense I described above. Whilst I am sure your child is very wonderful and lovely its existence lies very much within natural law!

No I don't.

Things happen for reasons, but not by some intervention by some superbeing.

ahem, have you ever seen one come out? Now that's a miracle

I might call that disturbing, but then I tend to find much of natural law very disturbing indeed...

Yep, they made us watch it in Biology

Well never seen a child be born, don't expect to have them neither!But to the point,don't believe in miracles.

Yes and no... I never been through one unless I have and did not know it. I am not sure wether they do exist.

I haven't seen one thing (that I can think of) that can't be explained rationally.

When people can't see a reasoning they usually put it down to a Godly act.

Would you be SURPRISED if they existed, VP?

dont belive in any divine intervention, the fact about your kids being born is one of natures own miracles

dunno what to say. I belive there are some things that don't have a rational explanation.

miracle as in beating the odds which were like 99% against you
no deity for me

No I do not.

you sure dont

nah, everything that happens has an explination by sience, it's not because we don't understand it YET, that it is a miracle

Yeah, it is the more 'supernatural' sort of miracle I was kinda getting at. As I said, a:

"a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent."

And whilst, yes, the more colloquial kind of miracles happen all the time- kids being born, winning the lottery, your car passing its MOT and so on- there isn't really much debate over whether THOSE kinds of miracles exist. Can hardly deny kids, can we?

So it is the more controversial, literal sort of miracle I was getting at. I'd like to see what the Julie's and Lauren's and Padme's have to say...

does spontaneous combustion count as a mircale?

I do! Miracles come from above.

As for science , it is proven to be incorrect all the time! For example , lets remember at one time , science told us that the world was flat!

and now they say it's not, which is ... big surprise ... correct!

Errr no, the world is flat, I have a map to prove it.

the world is shaped as a doughnut

Mmmm doughnuts.

hmm... world...

everything can be explained by science. But sometimes they get it wrong.

I don't believe in fate or destiny, but I DO believe in miracles and guardian angels.

Does anyone remember that cool song? It was off the film 'the pagemaster' "There can be miracles, when you belive" I thought it was pretty...

Does spontaneous combustion count?

sure why not?

yeh... everyone thinks of miracles as good things, but hey can be bad too....


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I'm missing the simpsns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brb...

its ok, im on my laptop, and ive moved to a room with a tv!

yay! whatcha watching?

simpsons!

they were on 15 minutes ago here!

i'm watching it too!
ralph is cool!

I have a ralph picture message on my phone!

you do not!

I do............... its a star wars one too! from an episode when he has loadsa star wars toys then he says ' i bent my wookie '!!

Groar!

"I need to get daddy's key..."

he's so sweet!

"Aah! the pointy kitty took it!"

"I just ate my colorpencil "

g2g, i am running out of battery on the laptop!!


"He's gonna smell like hotdogs!"

"What's starwars?"

enjoy the RL

bubi

come again?

i said bye bye to phoenix

shoot, I just thought I was important

Hey! I don't see much miracle talk here!

Science is fallible, of course, but a miracle is only rally a miracle if you think it will NEVER be explained by science. Do you think spontaneous combustion is against the laws of nature as caused by some external being? If you do then you consider it a miracle.

No, I don't believe in miracles. I'm too logic for that and I only believe what I've seen with my own twoo eyes. And I've never seen a miracle happen. Everything has its explanation and its reason. Maybe I want to believe that just to feel I control my own life. I don't know... I just don't believe it.

but how can something just set itself on fire....is there a scientific explanation for that......
hey this is something a friend asked me.....Where does the flame go when you blow out the candle?

Out...

but where......

Why does it need to go somewhere?

cos it's a thing....an energy....isn't it? where does the energy go?

It has a name I just can't remember it. The fire turns into smoke. Like water turns to water vapour... I think...

That's no different to where the energy goes when it is still burning- it is being continually produced as the energy expends itself. When it goes out no more energy is being produced so the effect stops and the existing energy is expended and then there is nothing there.

Do you, by the same logic, wonder where the light from an electric lamp 'goes when you turn it out?

makes sense......

Yes, the human race has a terrible habit of believing that everything they know is right.

Even though it comes from a move, I think this quote is relevant to that particular point.

On the original topic of miracles. I don't believe in them. Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes we just can't explain how or why it happens.

so how does spontaneous combustion work?

There are some things science just can't explain

like spontaneous combustion

it's when you feel too warm inside

he he

That doesn't make them miracles or devine or anything, it just means we haven't worked them out...

Cermie, do you think that science will NEVER explain spontaneous combustion?

..........like how Humming Birds fly for one.

Just cus we can't understand it, doesn't make it a miracle.

Don't they just use their wings??

Oh, like bumblebees, from what we understand of aerodynamics they should not work.

Raz -

How about photosynthesis, science boffins (I love using that tabloid description) can still only mimic a few % of the process in solar panels.

This is a tricky one because there in no evidance that sponaneous combution even exites (sp). I mean nobody ever witness anothere person spontanously combust. wich could acount for the miracle part! lol Tricky

i think the world is full of tiny miracles... like... glow in the dark bugs... if they've got no eyes, why do they need to glow in the dark?

That is a mystery, not a miracle. It is not outside the boundary of natural law.

I think miracles are things that can't answer a why question...

Like, why do rainbows happen?

I think the world is very complexed and full of amazing things, but eventually it will all be explain!

Actually this as an explanation I just cant remember what it is,I think it has something to do with the light hiting the water drops or something like that.

would you really want everything explained? dont u wish that there could be some miracles, some mysteries, something that you can only believe in, you cant explain?

Well, I gave a definition of what we could consider as miracles for the purposes of this thread at the start of it, to avoid such confusion.

hmm... no

I believe I can fly

I believe I can touch the sky...

but it will take a miracle to land

yup....

yes I do.Because i dont believe in miracles so all that is unexplained is a mistery and the fun in mistarys(sp) is finding out the answer!

it can be argued that life itself can be a miracle... was it divine intervention that caused the big bang? was it divine intervention that gave life to the universe? science cannot explain these things (though we do get closer all the time to understanding the universe... but we only understand the how, not the why.) if by divine, we are speaking of a power greater then ourselves, we must say that the creation of the universe that we live in, is truly a miracle.
as far as everyday life miracles... i've have never witnessed one... but i'll never give up hope that miracles do happen... sometimes thats all we have, the hope that a miracle actually happens to us

LOL there are always gonna be unexplained things kes

like: what is the purpose of life (more than just biologicaly speaking)?
what is the after-life like?

the long wait till we can finally die
and
there isn't one

why?

What makes you think theres an after life?! In my opinion you got this one and thats it. But this is about miracles not mistarys (sp). I think that in order to believe in a miracle you have to believe in a divine power, so i dont hope for a miracle because i just dont believe in any divine power!
That simple

says you but can you prove it or explain why it is like that and not like something else

NOW WILL EVERYONE WORSHIP THE 12 FOOT LONG ECLAIR OR DO I HAVE TO GET MAD FIRST??????

I just dont believe it. i dont have to prove anything. you believe your thing and i believe mine. lol kinda like seeing is believing...well i got to see it to believe.

lol nice idea kes
but sometimes you have to trust ppl just a bit

But I saw it! really!

yea yea

you do not want to see the truth?

don't care

you're not hungry?

not really
and something you woreship is not something you eat

it is in my case

I'm hungry again, FM

have a peanut
*throws a peanut at yerss*

Is this the part where I pretend I'm a monkey and starts humping people's legs?

It as nothing to do with trust or truth! Hey i'm an x-files fan, i do want the truth!)
Wanna know whats a miracle fire?! It's a miracle that we were the fastest swimmers!

that aint a miracle that's just luck

*walks in*
Howdy

I dont know about you guys but i cheated! Yeh I gave wrong directions!

has it done it yet?

not yet

Try not to answer a question with a question, Cermie.

precisely. so is it a miracle?

Try answering the question.

Why do rose suddenly appear ...
everytime you are near

cermie and ush how do you explain something that hasn't even been confirm? I mean they say it doesn't exist, that the documented cases of supposed espontanous combustion are just wierd fires.

i do not know.....

and why are they weird? because they started by spontaneous combustion.

last time I checked, science did admit its existance

really?

I was just saying to cermie. She thinks it is a miracle if she thinks it is something that science will NEVER explain, not if it is something science does not explain right now. If it is caused by the intervention of an external being against the laws of nature, it is a miracle. If it is naturally occuring, it is not, even if we do not know why it happens.

no i think it's a miracle if something breaks the laws of science....wait that's the same thing isn't it Ush?

always thought it was because people ate too much healthy food

and not enough waffles?

amongst other things yes

so, I'm pretty safe

insanity still lives on

Here is the definition of miracle that we are using again:

"a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent."

So 'unexplained' does not necesarily mean 'miraculous'.

yes, ... yes I am

sadly the duracell bunny doesn't......................
so Ush, we're talknig about God like miracles here?

I can always make a new one ... and kill it too

yerss! you wouldn't!

honestly?

*gasps and cuddles replacement bunny*

cermie they are wierd because they just burn in that spot abd nothing else. and yerssot science does not states that they exist, there was a documentary on yesterday about this.

not with the bunny again!

strange, last time I heard they were thinking people who had a drink could get it...

do I spot a new bunny???

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo run bunny run!

Not necessarily from God but probably God-like yerss, yes. And from some form of external influence over the normal rules of the world.

I'll give it a two second headstart

I just lure it back with chocolate

why is everyone desperate to commit bunnycide!
run rabbit run rabbit run run run
run from yerss with a gun gun gun......

Look, enough of the rabbits! Make your own bunny thread if need be; let's try and keep the topics on course, please.

*sigh*
yes daddy
*signs to cermie her rabbit won't survive the next five minutes*

yerss!
*starts to pray yerss will not kill bunny*

Watch it, Cermie.

ok ok ! will stick to the topic ush!
what about the water to wine thing? and the healing thing? if people have enough faith do they get healed? or do they BELIEVE they are healed?

Do YOU think such things are miracles?

hmmmm, thought it was rather clear they believe they are healed

lots of those people who got "healed" went back to their injuries/sick/etc. a few days later

really?

yes

the espontanous healing is your own body! it can do amazing things like a women who believes so much she is pregnant that her body will display the 'sintoms'! or a woman who lifts a car of a loved one. ..adrenalin(sp) also hurban ledgents! do you really believe the water to wine happen?! It's a story in a book!

the adrenaline making you do incredible stuff is not a myth it's the truth

yeh but the story about the woman is kinda old! either way...not a miracle.

water to wine.......i'm christian....so yeah i believe it......