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Jedi temple exhibition arena. Sabers only. Legends. Full heal after every round.

AotC Kenobi
AotC Anakin
AotC Kit Fisto
RotS Saesee Tiin
RotS Agen Kolar
RotS Kit Fisto

3?

Not entirely sure yet, but I think Qui-Gon at least clears AotC Kenobi, Anakin and probably AotC Kit Fisto. Not sure from there though.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Not entirely sure yet, but I think Qui-Gon at least clears AotC Kenobi, Anakin and probably AotC Kit Fisto. Not sure from there though.
No way in hell he's beating Kit Fisto, whom AotC Kenobi was completely outclassed by. Qui-Gon has no feats to compare.

Stops solidly at 1

Maybe. Not really sure that AotC Kenobi had parity with Qui-Gon though.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Maybe. Not really sure that AotC Kenobi had parity with Qui-Gon though.
Is this directed at me? If so, that doesn't matter. AotC Kenobi evidently wasn't Kit's limit. In fact, Qui-Gon would have to be comfortably superior to AotC Kenobi to match Kit.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Is this directed at me? If so, that doesn't matter. AotC Kenobi evidently wasn't Kit's limit. In fact, Qui-Gon would have to be comfortably superior to AotC Kenobi to match Kit.

I mean, why can't Qui-Gon be comfortably superior to AotC Kenobi? I haven't really seen any reasoning behind it so far. Dooku was definitely unimpressed with Kenobi's performance, for one, expecting more from Qui-Gon's padawan.

Originally posted by Meatpants
I mean, why can't Qui-Gon be comfortably superior to AotC Kenobi? I haven't really seen any reasoning behind it so far. Dooku was definitely unimpressed with Kenobi's performance, for one, expecting more from Qui-Gon's padawan.
I suppose my instinctive reasoning is that Kenobi was already fairly close to Qui-Gon by TPM, and thus, after 10 years of practice, he would at least be around Qui-Gon's level. Take it as you will.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
I suppose my instinctive reasoning is that Kenobi was already fairly close to Qui-Gon by TPM, and thus, after 10 years of practice, he would at least be around Qui-Gon's level. Take it as you will.

Not fairly confident in that assessment. Jinn has better accolades than AotC Kenobi, such as being one of the best pure swordsmen the order had ever seen, comfortably above Anoon Bondara, considered a challenge by Maul, mastered Makashi and other fighting techniques etc. Kenobi got toyed with by Dooku basically, and Dooku was apparently quite unsatisfied with Kenobi's performance.

I'm open to ideas that prove a relative parity between AotC Kenobi and Qui-Gon. Though I still doubt that Kenobi was so good as to be at parity with Jinn in sabers despite being only half his age.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Not fairly confident in that assessment. Jinn has better accolades than AotC Kenobi, such as being one of the best pure swordsmen the order had ever seen, comfortably above Anoon Bondara, considered a challenge by Maul, mastered Makashi and other fighting techniques etc. Kenobi got toyed with by Dooku basically, and Dooku was apparently quite unsatisfied with Kenobi's performance.
I'm well aware of those accolades. That Kenobi was trounced by Dooku is hardly relevant; Jinn was comfortably beaten by Maul. For one, even with Kenobi's help he failed to overcome Maul. Two, Dooku outclasses Maul anyway.

Originally posted by Meatpants
I'm open to ideas that prove a relative parity between AotC Kenobi and Qui-Gon. Though I still doubt that Kenobi was so good as to be at parity with Jinn in sabers despite being only half his age.
This is where we're getting into guessing territory. To my knowledge, there's no source that examines how close Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were to each other as warriors. Until we know, we can't really say for sure whether Obi-Wan by AotC would have transcended him.

1

Originally posted by Intr3pId
I'm well aware of those accolades. That Kenobi was trounced by Dooku is hardly relevant; Jinn was comfortably beaten by Maul. For one, even with Kenobi's help he failed to overcome Maul. Two, Dooku outclasses Maul anyway.


This is where we're getting into guessing territory. To my knowledge, there's no source that examines how close Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were to each other as warriors. Until we know, we can't really say for sure whether Obi-Wan by AotC would have transcended him.

Jinn has superior experience, training, feats and accolades to AotC Kenobi.

Originally posted by Meatpants
I mean, why can't Qui-Gon be comfortably superior to AotC Kenobi? I haven't really seen any reasoning behind it so far. Dooku was definitely unimpressed with Kenobi's performance, for one, expecting more from Qui-Gon's padawan.

Because a 17 year old Obi Wan pushed Qui Gon to his limits in a sparring contest, with both of them being panting messes when it was done. Because IIRC there are quotes stating that TPM Obi Wan would be his equal if not for his inexperience.

That Qui Gon has quotes is irrelevant. Obi Wan has around 4 quotes stating he is among the best in the order before or during TPM, with one of them being when he was a teenager so he easily stacks up to a level close to Qui Gon at least.

Now there is not a single reason why AoTC Obi Wan shouldn't beat him solidly unless you want to assert that he didn't grow much during that period

Also, Kenobi is a significantly greater prodigy than Qui Gon, so he is on his general level by TPM. It has nothing to do with age, he is simply more talented.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Because a 17 year old Obi Wan pushed Qui Gon to his limits in a sparring contest, with both of them being panting messes when it was done. Because IIRC there are quotes stating that TPM Obi Wan would be his equal if not for his inexperience.

That Qui Gon has quotes is irrelevant. Obi Wan has around 4 quotes stating he is among the best in the order before or during TPM, with one of them being when he was a teenager so he easily stacks up to a level close to Qui Gon at least.

Now there is not a single reason why AoTC Obi Wan shouldn't beat him solidly unless you want to assert that he didn't grow much during that period

I'm not familiar with these quotes, I'd have to see them to consider whether they can be applied here.

Kenobi being on Qui-Gons general level by TPM is them both being Level 7s, I.e. in the same league as ROTS Fisto.


Originally posted by LordOfTheLight

Now there is not a single reason why AoTC Obi Wan shouldn't beat him solidly unless you want to assert that he didn't grow much during that period

Except that he clearly hadnt grown much combat wise between TPM and AOTC.

Seems strange but then he did decide to completely switch forms in between.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Also, Kenobi is a significantly greater prodigy than Qui Gon, so he is on his general level by TPM. It has nothing to do with age, he is simply more talented.

Was he though? Qui-Gon beat all his peers as a kid in lightsaber combat, hence Dooku taking him on as his apprentice. There's no reason to believe that Kenobi was considerably more prodigious than Jinn, though Jinn does admit that eventually Kenobi would surpass him.

Originally posted by Meatpants
I'm not familiar with these quotes, I'd have to see them to consider whether they can be applied here.

Pretty sure Ant has most of them. I last saw them months ago so I'd have to dig them up.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Kenobi being on Qui-Gons general level by TPM is them both being Level 7s, I.e. in the same league as ROTS Fisto.

Yes, but there's obviously tiers inside each level. If Fisto was a 7, then TPM Kenobi would be an extremely low 7, if not a high 6 bordering 7. I consider Jinn a high 7.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except that he clearly hadnt grown much combat wise between TPM and AOTC.

Seems strange but then he did decide to completely switch forms in between.

IIRC, Kenobi had started to learn Soresu by AotC, but he obviously defaulted to Ataru against Dooku as he had more experience and confidence in it.

TPM Kenobi's not a 7 besides the ending scene, IIRC.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Where Maul actually considered Qui-Gon a challenge,
Where was this said? Maul outclassed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together.




Originally posted by Meatpants
Dooku was toying with Kenobi.
Right, but again, Dooku would demolish Jinn too.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Kenobi was also half the age of Qui-Gon, yet can somehow match Qui-Gon's mastery of Ataru? It just doesn't add up.
So what? Obi-Wan reached a level that Qui-Gon never did by TCW. He always had more potential.


Originally posted by Meatpants
Maybe a better comparison is how Jinn fares against AotC Kit Fisto.
Sure, but Jinn loses. Qui-Gon has nothing to his name that compares with outclassing someone like Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Was he though? Qui-Gon beat all his peers as a kid in lightsaber combat, hence Dooku taking him on as his apprentice. There's no reason to believe that Kenobi was considerably more prodigious than Jinn, though Jinn does admit that eventually Kenobi would surpass him.

Jinn beating his peers doesn't matter because there is no logical connectivity between them and Kenobi and it doesn't set the precedent for any comparison.

Kenobi is considerably more prodigious than Jinn because he is on his general level despite Jinn being more than twice his age. Not the reverse.

Jinn mused that the day was not much longer away when 17 year old Kenobi would surpass him.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Jinn beating his peers doesn't matter because there is no logical connectivity between them and Kenobi and it doesn't set the precedent for any comparison.

Kenobi is considerably more prodigious than Jinn because he is on his general level despite Jinn being more than twice his age. Not the reverse.

Jinn mused that the day was not much longer away when 17 year old Kenobi would surpass him.
Have a quote and source for that last point?

The iteration of Kenobi sparring with him is 17 years old here

To be fair, we know that "day" is still some ways off even seven years later.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
The iteration of Kenobi sparring with him is 17 years old here
Nice, thanks.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Where was this said? Maul outclassed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together.

After all the droids, assassins, gangsters, and soldiers he had vanquished, finally a worthy opponent. Not since he had fought and been defeated by his own Master, Darth Sidious, had Maul been so committed to a challenge.

-TPM

Maul was also almost taken off-guard by Jinn's response to his attacks, and was disturbed at Jinn's ability to know all his attacks in advance, to the point where he threw away his usual combinations instantly.

Also, Maul is > Jinn, but TPM Kenobi would get trashed by Maul in seconds I'd wager if Jinn wasn't there helping him by dividing Maul's attention.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Right, but again, Dooku would demolish Jinn too.

Jinn would be a much better challenge to Dooku than Kenobi, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
So what? Obi-Wan reached a level that Qui-Gon never did by TCW. He always had more potential.

Yeah, but TCW saw Kenobi advance by a lot because he was specifically devoted to improving his lightsaber skills in constant warfare and consistent lightsaber combat with Sith and Dark Jedi. The advance from TPM to AotC on the other hand was less substantial, imo.

@CuckedCurry

I agree. On top of that, Jinn also had a mastery of Makashi, which definitely trumps Kenobi's lesser knowledge of Soresu, and also directly counters Kenobi's Ataru. Now, I'm not suggesting that Jinn would switch to Makashi against Kenobi, rather that he'd integrate it into his sequences to penetrate Kenobi's guard.

It's hard to cite quotes from TPM because there's like fifteen different accounts on the fight with all of them wildly varying in how good Jinn performs in it.

The general gist I got from the source material is that Jinn has relative parity with Maul until his fatigue hampers him; suggesting that skill wise, he is relatively equal to Maul due to skill and experience, the latter of which makes up for Maul's superior training and wider technical mastery.

Perhaps we need to compile all the accounts and look at which is the most supported, especially in higher sources, like I did with Yoda vs Dooku.

Sounds like a good idea. Also, what conclusions did you come to with the Dooku Yoda one?

Originally posted by Meatpants


After all the droids, assassins, gangsters, and soldiers he had vanquished, finally a worthy opponent. Not since he had fought and been defeated by his own Master, Darth Sidious, had Maul been so committed to a challenge.

-TPM

Maul was also almost taken off-guard by Jinn's response to his attacks, and was disturbed at Jinn's ability to know all his attacks in advance, to the point where he threw away his usual combinations instantly.
That's from End Game, actually, regarding their square-off on Tatooine. Maul was hampered by an injury. Qui-Gon was evidently not a serious challenge to Maul.





Originally posted by Meatpants
Also, Maul is > Jinn, but TPM Kenobi would get trashed by Maul in seconds I'd wager if Jinn wasn't there helping him by dividing Maul's attention.
So what? I'm not disputing that Jinn was Kenobi's superior by TPM.



Originally posted by Meatpants
Jinn would be a much better challenge to Dooku than Kenobi, for obvious reasons.
Jinn wouldn't be a challenge to Dooku at all. Dooku could telekinetically incapacitate him or outduel him, whichever he prefers.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Yeah, but TCW saw Kenobi advance by a lot because he was specifically devoted to improving his lightsaber skills in constant warfare and consistent lightsaber combat with Sith and Dark Jedi. The advance from TPM to AotC on the other hand was less substantial, imo.
Right, but you're kind of moving the goalposts. You initially doubted that Kenobi could match Jinn at half his age, which, to be honest, is an argument from incredulity. The point is that, since Kenobi was much more of a prodigy than Qui-Gonn, it's not really hard to believe he could match his abilities at an earlier age. That Kenobi obviously improved more as he got promoted to being a general in the war and got more experience under his belt was never in contention.

Wrath of Darth Maul depicts Qui-Gon getting stomped.

Stops at 1.

@Intr3pId

I was pointing out that AotC > TCW > RotS has a clear line of improvement for Kenobi, whereas TPM > AotC is far less impressive and overall ambiguous. I don't see Kenobi matching Qui-Gon's mastery of Ataru, higher experience, presumably greater strength and additional mastery of Makashi.

@DarthCaedus77

Do you have the specific passage?