Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

https://i.imgur.com/zSFs3f1.png

As Qui-Gon has left the Jedi Order due to both political and philosophical disagreements, Agen has been tasked to bring him back. They encounter each other on Geonosis, ready to engage in battle.

Setting

Battle takes place in the Petranaki arena
Standard mindsets
Standard equipment
Starting distance is 20 meters

Rules

Both characters are at their respective peaks
Legends feats apply
I will post the opener. 2 weeks max between each post. 20k characters max per poster per turn
Judges and format: TBD

looks gewd

nyax

Wow, like the picture you made there. I await the first post. I'm not picky about rules or judges tbh.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Wow, like the picture you made there. I await the first post. I'm not picky about rules or judges tbh.
Working on the post. It shouldn't take too long, since Agen is an easy character to gather sources for and make points regarding. Can prolly post tomorrow.

So basically now that I'm on break and have stuff like...idk time. I get to enjoy watching y'all bash each other in the face. This is what I live for

Short, brutal and old-school intro by Jack.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Short, brutal and old-school intro by Jack. jack is a really great debater, but not many people can see it since he trolls so much, lmao

same goes for bart and ziggy

Nice opener. If you're in need of judges I'm perfectly willing to take on the task.

Indeed. It wouldn't be good if this discussion resembled that Saesee Tiin vs. Qui-Gon Jinn debate there was had some years ago. Shame I can't recall the competitors... mmm

excellent


I'm down for whatever, but Meatpants should have a say in it too.

Good idea, it's better to expand to different topics over time in detail, instead of opening up every avenue right from the start. I've got a tough uphill battle, due to my inexperience and the good opening points you've made. I'll start by establishing a relative power scale of the Jedi you mentioned had interacted with Agen Kolar. I'm quite confident that people would agree with the following:

Sora Bulq > Quinlan Vos > Aayla Secura

Now, Agen Kolar appears to be solidly > Vos and Secura, the former of whom, as you pointed out, contended with Sora Bulq, and beat Secura. Since Secura is the lowest of the three, we'll begin with her. Even though I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Jinn > Secura, I still think it's a good idea to establish his accolades from the start. Secura has decent accolades.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/4856436-5162684029-48554.jpg

She's a confirmed master of Ataru and Jar Kai, and skilled in unarmed combat. She even gave Vos a run for his money, though from the two comic pages I've seen, it appears to me that Vos was temporarily surprised and thrown off balance, rather than Secura being a definitive match or superior.

The problem is, apart from the Aurra stuff (which isn't really that solid to begin with), Jinn just has superior feats. For starters, he's confirmed council tier. In terms of physicality, one could attempt to argue for Secura's age and agility, though this hardly affects the outcome. Jinn is a confirmed match in skill for Darth Maul, which can be extracted from these three quotes:

The combatants surged back and forth across the flats...
The Phantom Menace Novelisation

He had matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own.
End Game

and

Then, just when Qui-Gon's stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul's favour, the incomprehensible had occured: Qui-Gon had fled.
End Game

From these, we know that Jinn is a confirmed match in skill to TPM Maul, as he "matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own." They were surging back and forth, indicating that Jinn was capable of putting Maul on the defensive regularly, rather than just holding on. Finally, we're told that the battle only started tipping in Maul's favour when Jinn's stamina gave way (he's 60 year-old)..

Now, I'm aware that there's more factors to the fight, such as Maul's minor injury, but I don't really feel like this really affected the battle that much. You could try and argue that during the Naboo duel, Maul was matching both Jinn and Obi simultaneously, but Maul also had his double-bladed lightsaber to use, meaning that it was easier to deal with two opponents, and more importantly it was extremely unorthodox as a weapon. If Maul was using a single blade, I highly doubt he'd be able to hold off both Jedi simultaneously as easily, if at all.

So when it comes to agility, Jinn was capable of roughly matching the considerably agile and skilled Darth Maul in sabers during a high-intensity duel with no preparation, so Secura has no advantage there. Even in his earlier years, Jinn was able to match the agile Tahl during an exhibition tournament, and beating her. His more grounded and heavy-handed approach to Ataru didn't diminish his ability to deal with agile opponents.

Overall, I think it's safe to posit that Jinn was roughly equal in skill* to TPM Maul, who is confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the Sith order. Rough parity against that is an accolade that easily surpasses any accolade Aayla Secura holds. On top of that, Jinn has the accolade of being recognised as one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order.

*NB: Darth Maul is solidly > Qui-Gon in sabers. All I'm saying is that Jinn's Saber skills are implied to be roughly equal to Maul's, and that his defeat would be due to his flagging stamina, not any deficiency in skill. Furthermore, Maul was "almost" thrown off guard by Jinn's response to Maul's surprise attack, causing him to throw away his usual strategies and combinations within seconds of the duel starting, which to me implies that Jinn would have killed Maul if the latter hadn't adapted within seconds of the duel starting Maul noted that Jinn had perfect balance in the sand, after noting himself that he was proud of his own balance. He was also concerned that Qui-Gon knew his moves before even he knew them, an indicator of Jinn's heavy experience and a testament that he could predict the moves of a Juyo practicioner confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, before that Sith knew the moves himself. But enough Jinn wanking, I know that Maul > Jinn solidly, but this is implied as being more due to Jinn's flagging stamina, not his Saber skills, which are again implied as roughly equal to Maul's.

Jinn then clearly has far superior combat accolades to Secura, and I would argue is solidly superior to her in skill, and I don't see how her force power feats match or surpass Jinn's at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he stomps Aayla, and I haven't even talked about all of Jinn's Saber accolades yet.



Moving on to Quinlan and Bulq now, after I've set the foundations of Jinn's power level relative to Secura. I'll be more brief here and attempt less autistic logic until it needs to be discussed xD

IIRC, Vos ended up using TK to beat Secura, who Jinn is solidly above in sabers as it is. Vos also beat Bulq in sabers (correct me if I mixed context here), and you yourself said that Vos matched Jinn in force fears, rather than surpassed. I really don't see how Vos beats Jinn in sabers or force, considering that Jinn is easily on that level, if not more experienced and deadly. In regards to the old databank's entry on Sora Bulq:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/OyGs4xU

It's clearly highly impressive, but I'm not convinced that it necessarily trumps Jinn's own Saber accolades. For example, it's logical to assume that being the one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi order >> being one of the greatest lightsaber instructors plus being a weapon master. Why? Because Jinn is stated to be solidly above Anoon Bondara, a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, a Jedi weaponmaster and described as being one of the best fighters in the Jedi order. Considering Bulq's accolade of mastering many combat techniques, Jinn has an almost identical accolade, being said to have mastered Dooku's classical fighting techniques (aka Makashi) along with many others from across the galaxy. This accolade basically confirms that Jinn is a master of Form II. Hardly surprising, he was the apprentice of Dooku, who took Jinn on due to his own prodigious lightsaber skills. Furthermore, Jinn was solidly above Juyo masters like Anoon Bondara, a form which only the most skilled master's could learn and master, indicating that Jinn had a technical understanding of every Saber form, at least the basics and how to combat them. The only advantage Bulq has from his databank entry, arguably, is that Windu chose him to experiment and create Vaapad. I don't regard this as much of an edge though. Though this is hardly indicative of superior skill to Jinn.

I'll leave force related feats for later. I've already written enough as it is for now xD. I've had to write this on my phone, so my formatting is crap. I'm also expecting to get raped in the response xD. Your move

RE: Judges, I don't mind who judges, I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and if necessary be proven wrong to deepen my knowledge.

Oh also, I meant Bulq is roughly equal to Vos, not superior. I haven't mentioned Kolar yet because I wanted to establish Jinn's mastery vis-a-vis those who are presumably below Agen Kolar to demonstrate that Jinn is actually in his tier. I also apologize again for the formatting, I had to do this on my phone on the move! xD

Cool post. Looking forward to replying to it.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Cool post. Looking forward to replying to it.

Thanks.

Also to quickly add to what I said, Agen Kolar is solid above the three others, who are of themselves roughly at parity with each other. Therefore, proving Jinn > them proves that he wouldn't get trashed by Kolar like Vos was.

Originally posted by Meatpants
RE: Judges, I don't mind who judges, I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and if necessary be proven wrong to deepen my knowledge.
Perhaps we should abstain from having votes entirely?

If you want. I wouldn't mind people inputting their thoughts, though.

Good posts

That's fine.

Muser tier counter we got here. Lets see if Intr3pId is capable of capitalizing on such a response.

What is "Muser tier".

A euphemism for low tier

Don’t worry Meatpants you’re not Muser tier :/

Nice post, MP.

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
A euphemism for low tier

Don’t worry Meatpants you’re not Muser tier :/

Saying a post is "Muser tier" is basically like saying your gender fluid rather then a guy or a girl. Its a way to describe a state of potential, and is a excellent way to describe something without giving useful information.

Also yes, most of the time a Muser Tier post is pretty bad.

Decent second post however there are quite a few points I disagree with and plenty of room for counter attacking.

If Intr3pId's next post can capitalise on this post's weaknesses it will leave him in a good position for the rest of the debate.

Originally posted by Meatpants
What is "Muser tier".
I suggest you ignore him. Let him bask in his continued irrelevancy as you work your way towards the top of the hierarchy. excellent

You cucks shut the **** up and let the debaters debate. No one wants to know your opinion about their posts.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
You cucks shut the **** up and let the debaters debate. No one wants to know your opinion about their posts. wtf Jack cares for my opinion stop oppressing me

Great debate so far gents.

That sig though.

I already sense the limitations of my argument, and I went into this knowing Agen Kolar has the better chance of winning.

(1/2)


This is agreeable, yes.


Okay.


Just for reference, here is their fight:

https://imgur.com/a/iMYBYHg


As I noted, the basis of comparison between Qui-Gon and Aayla may or may not be valid. But do you have any reasonable justification as for why it isn't?


In fairness, none of the citations you provided substantiates your belief that Qui-Gon matched Maul in skill. All of them are concerning their clash on Tatooine. Maul was hampered by a leg wound he had sustatined in an engagement with togorian pirates when he was arriving on Tatooine, after which he had a short encounter with sand people. Despite the negative circumstances, Maul would still eventually have killed Qui-Gon. So using their battle on Tatooine as your foundation is a bit weak.










Deeming Maul's injury ''minor'' is downplaying it a bit. Sources point to it being of importance.









Why does it matter if Maul used a double-bladed lightsaber? That was just his weapon of choice, and yes, it was well suited for engaging Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but his dexterity and agility also played a part in that. Beyond that, Maul exceeds Qui-Gon in sheer lightsaber skill as well as fighting ability.







Qui-Gon temporarily matched an injured Maul but would still most likely have lost had the fight continued. Then, with Obi-Wan's help, they were still getting outfought despite being 2 against 1. So, quite obviously in my opinion, Qui-Gon was not on Maul's level in anything. As for the rest, I honestly find it a bit redundant to go so in-depth with regards to Qui-Gon vs. Aayla. Qui-Gon being better than her doesn't let him beat Agen.

(2/2)


The Insider account explicitly mentions that Qui-Gon's Ataru skills are only delaying the inevitable against Maul's Juyo skills. So, Maul supersedes Qui-Gon in sheer lightsaber expertise. Other than that, Maul has better physical attributes, better training, greater stamina and endurance, and is probably more powerful. Qui-Gon's tendency to tire quickly only helps Maul, yes, but Maul still outmatches Qui-Gon in almost all categories regardless of that.

Although Aayla is easily a better character than anyone named in this thread so far, I'm not particularly interested in examining how she stands next to Qui-Gon beyond their skirmishes with Aurra. The reasons for that is, one, because analyzing them on the basis of battles against the same character is fairly simple and straight to the point, and two, Qui-Gon being better than Aayla is hardly valuable for us when dissecting how Qui-Gon compares to Agen, because Agen would demolish her.



Quinlan beat Aayla by telekinetically overwhelming her with a barrage of stones, yes. His victory over Sora was more questionable, though. He was initially losing to Sora, but then Aayla helped him through the Force to defeat Sora.

Whether Qui-Gon would beat Quinlan is debatable. Their shown Force feats indicate similar mastery and magnitude. Qui-Gon is a more reputable swordsman for sure, but then, Quinlan is younger and doesn't tire as quickly. But Agen trashed Quinlan anyway, so Qui-Gon being able to match Quinlan does him no good.



For the point you're trying to make, this is a bit long. The first difference between Qui-Gon's and Sora's accolades are that Qui-Gon was ''only'' considered one of the best of all time by his peers, whereas Sora is deemed so by an objective out-of-universe source. That alone elevates Sora's praise above Qui-Gon's in status (but Qui-Gon's is still impressive for sure). Anyway, where is it said that Anoon mastered all forms of lightsaber combat and was one of the best fighters in the Order? Not that it matters too much, because Aayla (whom Sora obviously outstrips) was also one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order.

https://i.imgur.com/Y3OgjlT.png
(From The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia).

No doubt that Jinn was technically knowledgeable. As much as Sora Bulq? I personally doubt it. I fail to see why comparing Sora Bulq to Qui-Gon is relevant, though. I only mentioned Sora because Quinlan (whom beating is Agen's main feat) held his own against him for a short amount of time. That is an impressive feat for Quinlan and thus Agen. Comparing Qui-Gon to Quinlan is, in my opinion, much more pivotal than involing Sora, because Quinlan is directly linked with Agen. Comparing Sora to Agen is opening an entirely new can of worms that would involve entirely different analogies, sources and characters to reference.


Rest easy knowing that your formatting was fine. But you actually didn't establish Qui-Gon relative to Quinlan too much. So far, you haven't given me a lot of reasons to think that Qui-Gon transcends Quinlan, let alone that he matches Agen. Also, even if Qui-Gon is better than Quinlan, that alone hardly puts him in Agen's tier, because clearly, Agen was multiple tiers above Quinlan.


If you prove that Qui-Gon is better than Quinlan, yes. But, presuming that your goal is to promote Qui-Gon to be above Agen, that's not really sufficient.

My stance is still that Agen's trashing of Quinlan is more impressive than Qui-Gon being inferior to Maul, especially in mind with Quinlan's own considerable prowess as a warrior and Force adept.

Great points. Looks like I'll have to reangle and refocus my arguments a little. Will be working on my response throughout the day, unfortunately I'll have to do it on my phone again.

Great debate so far.

Ant, what's that quote that you claim states TPM Qui-Gon >/= TPM Yoda?

Yeah, I sorta need that if it actually exists 🤷😂😂

Originally posted by Geistalt
Ant, what's that quote that you claim states TPM Qui-Gon >/= TPM Yoda?

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The amount of statements saying Jinn's the strongest Jedi in the galaxy as of TPM has to count for something, lmao.

Maybe not much, but I'm willing to arbitrarily put it above Ventress-tier.

Ant, I want that quote and the Kenobi one too. Pay the toll.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9Igqz02TEWXq0wMw/source.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmXTYu5Qvq0

Seems like he's just creating a bunch of hype.

Also, that supposed quote from the Power of the Jedi sourcebook about Jinn sparring with Mace as an equal doesn't exist, right?

I really like this thread so far. Reasonable, both sides are logical, analysis of content isn't overblown, it's honest, grounded and you can see both participants spreading logical, concise thoughts.

Thanks.

Also, Intr3pid, do you think Jinn > Tiin? That dude doesn't really have the feats that Agen Kolar has tbh.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Thanks.

Also, Intr3pid, do you think Jinn > Tiin? That dude doesn't really have the feats that Agen Kolar has tbh.
Nah, I have Saesee above Qui-Gon too. A source states that he exhibits one of the strongest connections to the Force of all Jedi and, in tandem with Agen and Kit, he was regarded as one of the most skillest swordsmen of the Order.

Originally posted by gold slorg
I really like this thread so far. Reasonable, both sides are logical, analysis of content isn't overblown, it's honest, grounded and you can see both participants spreading logical, concise thoughts.

Okay, I'm going to condense our points to be more concise and prevent the argument from getting any longer (which it already is somewhat). Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far your arguments are based on these two points:

1. Agen Kolar has been shown to be definitively > Quinlan Vos in a lightsaber duel. It remains to be proven whether Jinn is a match for Quinlan Vos at all, let alone above him. Jinn's fights against Maul are not > Agen Kolar's straight up smackdown of Quinlan Vos.
2. Agen Kolar has an out-of-universe accolade of being one of the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced; whereas Jinn's regularly cited one describes how he is "generally" considered one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Order. Therefore, Agen Kolar's accolade > Jinn's because it's more definitive and reliable, since it can't be interpreted as opinion. This also applies to Sora Bulq's accolade from the old Databank.

Point 2 can be easily addressed. Jinn not only has the aforementioned accolade:

Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

but is reinforced by:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order.
-TPM Novelisation

and:

The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of youth.
-TPM Novelisation

Obi-Wan also notes to himself in the TPM novel that Qui-Gon "was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen..." We can conclude then, that Jinn has definitive out-of-universe statements giving him the accolade of being one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order, and there's no reason to believe that Sora Bulq's or Agen Kolar's virtually identical accolades are superior.

Now, I'll briefly sum up my thoughts concerning Maul and Jinn before moving onto Jinn's superiority to Quinlan Vos. There's a plethora of sources on the Tantooine and Naboo duels, and most of them always mention/imply that the primary factor for Jinn's inferiority to Maul is his age and flagging stamina. It'd be a waste of time copying out every single quote from every single source here, since you're presumably familiar with them anyway. Yes, the sources also say that Maul was more than a match for Jinn in more areas than one, but overall the implication is that Jinn's age and deteriorating stamina were the primary causes of that inferiority. Again, Maul is more skilled, but my points are that:

1. Jinn forced Maul to completely reshuffle his approach within two seconds of the fight beginning; and it's implied that if Maul hadn't done that, he would have been killed, "almost" catching Maul off his guard from the very onset of the duel.
2. In contrast, within the first couple of seconds of Maul's duel with Anoon Bondara, Maul instantly knew that he was going to be the victor. This signifies a clear distinction of superiority between Jinn and a renowned Jedi Weaponmaster.
3. Following Maul's new approach, he is disturbed by Jinn's perfect balance in the sand and ability to know his own moves before he made them.
4. When Maul finally gains the upper hand due to Jinn's flagging stamina, Maul seems quite surprised, from my interpretation, as if how the duel was going to pan out over time was somewhat in question, rather than being a surefire one-ended fight.
5. Maul "confesses" that Jinn is a challenge; unlike Agen Kolar's swift takedown of Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Why does it matter if Maul used a double-bladed lightsaber? That was just his weapon of choice, and yes, it was well suited for engaging Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but his dexterity and agility also played a part in that. Beyond that, Maul exceeds Qui-Gon in sheer lightsaber skill as well as fighting ability.

My point is that the saberstaff allowed Maul to better combat both Jedi simultaneously. If he had a single saber, I actually don't see Maul being quite as capable of fending off against both Jedi.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Qui-Gon temporarily matched an injured Maul but would still most likely have lost had the fight continued. Then, with Obi-Wan's help, they were still getting outfought despite being 2 against 1. So, quite obviously in my opinion, Qui-Gon was not on Maul's level in anything.

I said that Jinn was roughly equal to Maul in skill and fighting ability; at least enough for Maul to be forced to change his fighting style within seconds of the start of the duel on Tantooine; become worried at Jinn's balance and precog during the duel; and confess that the old swordmaster was a legitimate challenge. These are impressive feats for Jinn considering his place as a tier 7 duelist opposing a tier 8 one.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Anyway, where is it said that Anoon mastered all forms of lightsaber combat and was one of the best fighters in the Order?

On the first point, he was a Weapon Master and evidence points heavily towards Bondara being the temple battlemaster and instructor before Cin Drallig. On top of that, he was a Juyo practitioner. It's hard to believe that, under these circumstances, he wasn't a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, at least in a technical sense, as Cin Drallig was.

As for the second point, for one it's been explicitly stated in the sources that Juyo is only used by the most skilled masters in the order; furthermore we're told that Bondara is considered by peers and apprentices as having unmatched combat prowess. Bondara disagreed with this, as he sparred with superior duelists like Jinn and Windu, but the Jedi Academy: Training Manual is sure to note that Bondara's skills are, nonetheless, considerable.

Moving onto Quinlan Vos, his victory against Sora Bulq was with the aid of Secura, and he was matched quite evenly with Secura herself in of their duels. Evidently, Vos is comparable in skill to Secura. Neither of these two have saber accolades that beat Jinn's. For starters, neither of them are ever claimed as council tier, whereas Jinn has been on multiple occasions. Jinn is described in multiple quotes as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Secura has a similar one about being one of the most skilled Jedi fighters, but it isn't clarified whether this applies to the current Jedi or the history of the Order. Even then, the accolade of swordsman as opposed to fighter gives a lot more confidence to Jinn's abilities, at least in my opinion, not to mention that Jinn has a handful of quotes that mention his swordsmanship, whereas Secura appears to have one (correct me if I'm wrong there). To add to that, Dooku considered Vos' dueling abilities as "appalling", yet we can hardly expect Dooku to have thought the same of Jinn's own swordplay. Dooku was apparently also unimpressed by AotC Kenobi's display as well, referencing the fact that he expected more from Qui-Gon's apprentice. We're not sure how much of this was truth and how much was to toy with Kenobi, but the point is that Dooku regarded Vos' dueling skills as sloppy. Dooku also taught Vos' some Makashi, but as I've proven in my last post, Jinn was had mastered the form.

In conclusion? If we look just at sabers for now, we find the following: both are masters of Ataru, but where Jinn was the apprentice of Dooku and presumably sparred with him numerous times to hone his swordplay, Vos' own dueling abilities were "appalling" to Dooku. Jinn is a confirmed council tier master, and has a handful of quotes testifying him as one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order. Vos has no such accolades to match that. Where Vos has at best Shien to add to the fray, and some stuff from Dooku, Jinn not only has mastered Makashi from the master of Makashi himself, but has sparred with said master long enough to understand Ataru's weaknesses, and more importantly: how to exploit these weaknesses. Nothing suggests that Jinn was incapable of adapting to the agility of an opponent like Vos. During one of his duels with Xanatos, Jinn is described as adapting his style in confined spaces when needed:

Still Qui-Gon adapted his style to fit the area. He used short jabs, sometimes falling on one knee to come at Xanatos from below.
-Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple

This further reinforces the idea that Jinn implemented Makashi into his Ataru with ease. Not to mention that his more grounded approach sounds like a heavily Dooku influenced style that relied on precision and strength of Ataru over the acrobatic maneuvers of the form. Vos is completely and utterly outmatched. He is not council tier, he has no accolade placing him above Jinn as a swordsman, Jinn's master describes Vos' form as sloppy, and Jinn has mastered and implemented Makashi into his personal style, a direct counter against Ataru users. Overall? Vos is a mid-tier 7 duelist, and Jinn, along with Agen Kolar, Tiin and Fisto is a high 7 tier duelist.

Your move

MP, join Discord.

Link?

Interesting... 131

What position are you arguing for MP? So far you haven't exactly proved why Qui Gon is better than Agen actually. Though you are pretty good otherwise

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
What position are you arguing for MP? So far you haven't exactly proved why Qui Gon is better than Agen actually. Though you are pretty good otherwise

That Jinn > Kolar. I'm only mentioning Vos because it's hard to debate Jinn/Kolar when both have like, really universal accolades. Kolar stomped Vos, so clearly if Jinn was on that level, he'd also beat Vos in a similar time.

(1/2)


Yup, pretty much.


I looked through my two posts, and I couldn't find when I mentioned Agen's accolades. I mentioned Sora's status as an acclaimed instructor as an extension of Vos' feats only. To be honest, this point borders on being superfluous. Nitpicking the phrasing of their acclaim to this extent will only serve to draw us away from more important parts of the discussion. That said, I will address it for (hopefully) the last time.


None of those are out-of-universe. The Encyclopedia is an out-of-universe source, yes, but specifically for this part, it clearly says he was ''regarded'' as one of the best of all time. So the objective source (the Encyclopedia) is just conveying the subjective source (the other Jedi's opinions). The second quote is from the TPM novel, so that alone makes it in-universe, since there is no omniscient narrator. And for the third one, you list the TPM novel as the source, but I can't find it. Are you sure it's the correct source?

Sora's accolade pertaining to his status as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors of all time is indisputable. Neither Qui-Gon nor Agen are praised similarly in an out-of-universe source, to my knowledge. So Sora wins in a battle of accolades.


But Qui-Gon is outmatched by Maul in everything, not only stamina and endurance. So I don't see why this matters. Even with Obi-Wan's help, Qui-Gon failed to outperform Maul. Maul is just better than Qui-Gon. I posted the necessary quotes on page in the first of two posts.


Your swords, pleaseSource, please.


That Qui-Gon is better than Anoon is obvious. But Anoon is utterly featless, and nothing implies he was anything more than a skilled swordsman. Aayla would beat him. Fighting evenly with Quinlan is better than whatever accolades he has to his name.


But Maul was wounded. So I don't see why their engagement on Tatooine proves anything. In fact, if anything, it points to Maul beating Qui-Gon even while injured. Maul was easily predicting Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's moves on Naboo anyway.




Maul was initially surprised that Qui-Gon managed to match his blows. I don't recall what else you're referring to here.


Again, Maul was wounded. Qui-Gon failed to challenge Maul on Naboo.


I know what your point is, but why is it relevant? As I said, Maul's physical abilities played a part in it as much as him wielding a double-bladed lightsaber.




Qui-Gon wasn't roughly equal to Maul in anything. If he was, he would have presented an actual challenge to Maul on Naboo when he had Obi-Wan by his side to help him, but Maul was comfortably deflecting their attacks while leading them into a trap. The only time Qui-Gon presented a challenge to Maul was when Maul was wounded.


Gonna need a quote/scan with source as well for the ''evidence'' as well as him practicing Juyo.


Post the source for Anoon utilizing Juyo first.

(2/2)


Qui-Gon is a more reputable swordsman than Quinlan, yes. Does he eclipse Quinlan in sheer skill? Possibly. Probably. Is that alone sufficient to deem him the better of the two? Not at all. As I mentioned previously, Quinlan is younger and more endurant, not to mention comparably powerful and a more enthusiastic telekinetic. He enjoys as many edges over Qui-Gon as the reverse. He might not outskill Qui-Gon, but with his greater energy and tendency to be nimble, he could certainly tax him and then beat him in a lightsaber duel or overwhelm him telekinetically.

As for Dooku's opinion on Quinlan's lightsaber skills, I see your point, but then, Dooku commended Tholme for his skills. As we know, Tholme and Quinlan were roughly even.

https://i.imgur.com/qqJONiV.png



Aayla was one of the most skilled Jedi of her time too. Quinlan matched her. Quinlan lacks comparable prestige but his feats are more impressive than Qui-Gon's. Fighting evenly with Tholme, fighting evenly and beating Aayla, competing with Sora for a short amount of time, handling 2 Morgukai while wounded, etc. is certainly comparable to getting outmatched by Maul and beating Xanatos. Also, you failed to reply to my point about Aurra. Aayla beat Aurra, whereas Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan failed to beat her. That is another point in favor of Quinlan.

Also, remember: Agen stomped Quinlan. That is practically irrefutable. So even if Qui-Gon is better than Quinlan (a stance that I think can be very reasonably argued), he will have to be MUCH better than Quinlan to match Agen. That I don't see as true.

31

Solid post.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Solid post.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Indeed. It wouldn't be good if this discussion resembled that Saesee Tiin vs. Qui-Gon Jinn debate there was had some years ago. Shame I can't recall the competitors... mmm

Lol yeh. Glhf tho

Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.

Originally posted by Meatpants
Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.

mhmm

Originally posted by Meatpants
Need to interrupt the debate here. Was just rereading the rules, and not entirely sure whether TPM Jinn is prime Jinn. In fact it's entirely possible that a Jinn 5 or 10 years earlier could be stronger. There's a couple of quotes that sort of allude to this as well, actually. I'll find them and post them soon.

Okay, so I've decided that TPM Gui-Gon is not prime Qui-Gon, due to a plethora of quotes indicating that his age has diminished his overall combat performance by a significant extent. I know that Antoine Bandele in his videos considers Jinn's prime as when he apprentices Xanatos, but that's way too early and unpredictable. I would say that around the start of the Jedi Apprentice series, or approximately a decade before the events of TPM, would be Jinn's "prime", in that it presents Jinn before his physicality begins to degenerate. In the Jedi Apprentice series, Jinn engages in a number of duels with Xanatos, all of which show no sign of fatigue or stamina issues, despite both combatants engaging for significant lengths of time (albeit with Jinn being a clear superior to Xanatos). In terms of whether Jinn's pure swordsmanship abilities improved or declined over the decade leading up to TPM, the novelisation implies that Jinn's saber skills had weakened, and that any edge he had (if any) was through experience:

Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.
-TPM Novelisation

Surely then, a decade prior around the start of the Jedi apprentice series, Jinn's strength was still intact, and although he didn't have all of his youth, he still would be in way better shape for extended dueling periods than his TPM incarnation. In addition, there's a handful of quotes that support this basic premise by highlighting Jinn's age as a major, if not primary, factor in the deterioration of Jinn's overall combative ability. These are provided below:

He was the best swordsman Obi-Wan had ever seen, but he was growing old.
-TPM Novelisation

---

His opponent was strong and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling.
-TPM Novelisation

---

The final battle with Darth Maul in the Theed power generator was fast, furious, and fatal. Qui-Gon, a master duelist by anyone's standards, no longer had the stamina of youth.
-The New Essential Guide to Characters

---

The Jedi activated their lightsabers, and Maul noticed Qui-Gon Jinn's blade flashed a fraction of a second after Obi-Wan's.

The old Jedi's getting slow.
-The Wrath of Darth Maul

We could perhaps attempt to compare this to a quote from one of Jinn's duels with Xanatos, though it could be argued that the perspective is that of Obi-Wan's:

Qui-Gon's grace and power were astounding as time and time again he met Xanatos with his thrusting lightsaber, protecting himself and Obi-Wan from blows.
-Jedi Apprentice: Dark Rival

As mentioned before, in the Jedi Apprentice series, as far as I know, Jinn's stamina is never displayed as an issue. Additionally, the first quote I've provided in this post points heavily that his skills as a swordsman, especially in terms of strength and speed, were diminishing, and had to be replaced with experience and intuition. Though, JA (Jedi Apprentice) Jinn, a decade younger, would have nonexistent stamina issues relative to his TPM incarnation, without TOO much of a downgrade in experience. Again, there's a plethora of quotes indicating that the primary reason for the deterioration of Jinn's overall combative performance was his age and flagging stamina.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Sora's accolade pertaining to his status as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors of all time is indisputable. Neither Qui-Gon nor Agen are praised similarly in an out-of-universe source, to my knowledge. So Sora wins in a battle of accolades.

In regards to the incorrectly sourced quote, it comes from the New Essential Guide to Characters, which is an out-of-universe accolade stating that Jinn is a master duelist by anyone's standards. Combined with the heavy number of quotes solidifying Jinn as a master duelist and being one of the best in the Order is hard to argue against, really. Anyway, this point has run its course, as you have stated yourself, so we'll leave it as is for now.

For my interpretation of the Tantooine duel, note first:

The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.
-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

It's a bit of a stretch, but Maul throws away his "usual combinations and strategies" within seconds of the duel starting. Why else would he do that, unless he considered his standard approach as compromising him? Jinn is also said to have "almost" taken Maul off-guard. Presumably, being taken off-guard means making a mistake that Jinn could exploit to kill Maul. This all happens within seconds of the duel beginning, it seems. Take it as you will.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
That Qui-Gon is better than Anoon is obvious. But Anoon is utterly featless, and nothing implies he was anything more than a skilled swordsman. Aayla would beat him. Fighting evenly with Quinlan is better than whatever accolades he has to his name.

Anoon Bondara being utterly featless is utterly incorrect:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4846635-anoon+accolade+1.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

He's defined by an out-of-universe authority as "one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Jedi Order. He also doesn't get stomped by Maul, as indicated by the fact that Maul was unable to bring down Bondara's guard despite "doubling" his efforts. Another in-universe accolade cements this even further:

Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Gonna need a quote/scan with source as well for the ''evidence'' as well as him practicing Juyo.

Post the source for Anoon utilizing Juyo first.

https://i.imgur.com/sXkheKa.jpg
-Jedi Academy Training Manual

Bondara is also a Weapon Master:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4847557-4336274664-48468.png

To provide context for the rank of Weapon Master:

Only a handful were ever elevated to the rank of Jedi Weapons Master, and these were revered for their skills.
-Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

As for the evidence regarding Bondara as being the temple instructor before Cin Drallig, it comes from Wookiepedia:

In both of Bondara's appearances he is described as having lightsaber skills second to none. This has led some to hypothesize that Anoon Bondara was the Jedi Battlemaster prior to Cin Drallig. The information mentioned above, the fact that he was the lightsaber instructor to Jedi Initiates and Padawans such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that he died in 32 BBY, the same year Cin Drallig became Battlemaster, are cited by some to support this theory.

It seems pretty solid. Anyway, as shown above, Bondara is confirmed by an out-of-universe source as one of the best fighters and duel instructors in the Order, meaning he presumably mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, or enough to adequately teach Jedi the technical aspects of each form. He's also a confirmed Juyo specialist, a form that only extremely talented Masters are capable of mastering. And Jinn is solidly > above him. And unlike Jedi like Secura, or equals on her level such as Quinlan Vos or Tholme, Bondara is not only confirmed as one of the best duelists and instructors in the Jedi Order, but also a Weapon Master and Juyo specialist. Bondara is > Secura or Quinlan Vos, due to having better accolades, and Jinn is one tier ahead of Bondara, making Jinn at a stomping level against Vos and Secura, at least in terms of sabers, and therefore comparable to Agen Kolar. To further cement this, Agen Kolar is still < Maul.

I'll quickly address some of the other points here, despite already establishing my "scaling chain" so-to-speak.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Qui-Gon is a more reputable swordsman than Quinlan, yes. Does he eclipse Quinlan in sheer skill? Possibly. Probably. Is that alone sufficient to deem him the better of the two? Not at all. As I mentioned previously, Quinlan is younger and more endurant, not to mention comparably powerful and a more enthusiastic telekinetic. He enjoys as many edges over Qui-Gon as the reverse. He might not outskill Qui-Gon, but with his greater energy and tendency to be nimble, he could certainly tax him and then beat him in a lightsaber duel or overwhelm him telekinetically.

I've already established that Jinn is > Vos in skill above, so you can address that there. Vos uses TK more often in combat, but I don't see how Jinn is going to be particularly disadvantaged here. He's been shown capable of integrating TK and stuff in combat if needed, and he's a confirmed council-tier Master in the force, which trumps Vos. And there's no indication that an agile opponent is going to disadvantage Jinn. The only agile/nimble opponent that beat Jinn, Maul, was a tier 8 duelist, so that doesn't even matter. As shown with Jinn's spar with Tahl, he had no problem dealing with acrobatic opponents. Also, Jinn as of Jedi Apprentice has a lot more stamina, and is capable of dueling for extended periods of time without signs of fatigue. Furthermore, he was also capable of adapting to the changing circumstances of a fight by switching to a more Makashi style approach, as demonstrated here:

Still Qui-Gon adapted his style to fit the area. He used short jabs, sometimes falling on one knee to come at Xanatos from below.
-Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple

Vos' Ataru gets stomped by Jinn's Ataru/Makashi hybrid style.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
As for Dooku's opinion on Quinlan's lightsaber skills, I see your point, but then, Dooku commended Tholme for his skills. As we know, Tholme and Quinlan were roughly even.

Yeah, but that might be because of Dooku's bias towards "classical" fighting styles. Point is, Vos' Ataru isn't going to go down well with Jinn's mastery of Makashi.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
mhmm
mmm

Originally posted by Intr3pId
mmm

Last post.

LOL. Really changing your entire argument like this? Okay. That Qui-Gon battled with Xanatos without having his energy drained is practically irrelevant. Given that Maul is far more skilled and powerful than Xanatos (per feats and accolades), fighting him would obviously be more taxing than fighting Xanatos.


You have no idea how a 10-year younger Qui-Gon would have performed against Maul. Maybe he would still have had his strength and energy taxed. Maybe not. We have no idea.

Another thing is that I can just apply the same logic regarding Qui-Gon's experience. By going back a decade, he loses 10 years of said experience, which was his only advantage on Maul in TPM.

Anything about pre-TPM Qui-Gon's level of anything is largely speculative. I'm going to need some strong points with evidence behind them before I'll entertain the idea of pre-TPM Qui-Gon being a substantially different beast than TPM Qui-Gon.


But I never said that Qui-Gon wasn't one of the best swordsmen in the Order. All I did was point out that he was only ever specified as one of the best ever by fellow Jedi. But yes, this point has run its course indeed.


But Maul was injured. His wound had an effect, as I've posted evidence for. Almost everything pertaining to their duel on Tatooine is entirely irrelevant. Qui-Gon, with Obi-Wan's help even, was outclassed by Maul on Naboo. Outclassed in skill, physical power, everything.



What I meant was that Anoon has nothing to his name in terms of actual showings besides losing to Maul. All we know is that he is inferior to Qui-Gon. Why is that good for Qui-Gon? Anoon has accomplished absolutely nothing except mastering his lightsaber to a high degree. Sora Bulq's repute is better than Anoon's also. Add to that beating Tholme and briefly challenging Mace, he would wreck Anoon.

re: Juyo, I tend to ignore those RPG attributes, but whatever. Not too interested in arguing the validity of it.


Anoon is better than Aayla and Quinlan because of one or two accolades? Let's not. Quinlan beat Aayla with TK. Given that Anoon has almost no Force feats, I see no reason to believe she isn't more powerful than him. So Quinlan would beat Anoon with TK alone. As for Aayla, to be honest, she would beat Anoon as well. She might not match him in sheer technical acclaim, but she enjoys greater power and has more documented showings. As such, since both Quinlan and Aayla are better than Anoon, Qui-Gon being better than Anoon doesn't make him better than them.

Nothing that Qui-Gon has accomplished makes me think he would beat Quinlan for any kind of majority. Being a bit generous, he could beat Quinlan, but only after a grueling fight. Qui-Gon has beaten Xanatos, beaten Anoon, and lost to Maul. Quinlan beat two Morgukai while injured, beat Aayla, and lost to Agen. I see no monumental disparity. If anything, Quinlan has a small edge. Qui-Gon was held in higher regard as a swordsman than Quinlan ever was, so that evens it out.

Force-wise, Qui-Gon has telekinetically pulled two Jedi out of a river, telepathically influenced hutts, influenced his own breathing to survive gas leaks and remain undetected from droids, and controlled beasts, to name some examples. Conversely, Quinlan has beaten Aayla with telekinesis, concealed his Force signature, healed wounds, and controlled beasts. Again, I have no idea where the disparity lies. To me, they seem fairly even. Even if Qui-Gon somehow comes up on top in the end, it is only by a slight margin. Agen was better than Quinlan by more than that, clearly. So Qui-Gon still loses to Agen.

Was a fun discussion, MP. But I think we've made our points, and by continuing, we'd be going off on tangents.

I agree that we've essentially run the course of this debate, but since you were first to open, I should have the right to conclude my points; though they will be brief, and may not be address all the issues you've brought up. I will solely stick to the most important points as to why I think Jinn is > Agen Kolar.

THIS POST AND Intr3pid's POST ABOVE ARE THE FINAL POSTS FOR THIS DEBATE. PLEASE READ THESE BEFORE VOTING.

Final points and conclusions:

Agen Kolar only has two accolades/feats to his name that can be of any use against Qui-Gon Jinn. The first is that he is confirmed as one of the greatest Swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced; the second is that Kolar beat Quinlan Vos relatively quickly. However, these fall short because:

(a) Jinn is stated by a dozen sources to be one of the best swordsmen in the Order, and his peers (aka Jedi Masters and presumably friends like Plo Koon, who is one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history) regard him as one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Order. Not surprising, considering he was apprenticed to Dooku, who beat Windu in sparring when he was still a Jedi, and Windu is stated to be roughly on par with Yoda as of TPM in skill. At best, you could argue that Kolar's accolade =/= Jinn's, so it cancels out anyway. However, the real killer is that TPM Kenobi, who is < Jinn as a duelist, beat Plo Koon in a sparring match, and sparred with Windu and the other B-team member, Saesee Tiin, both of whom commented very highly on Kenobi's skill as a swordsman. Jinn therefore scales above that, placing him in the upper tier of duelists as of TPM. In all likeliness, if Kenobi could contend and impress Windu as of his TPM incarnation, than Jinn would probably be capable of matching Windu in a spar, but not beating him (as Windu has only been outsparred by Dooku and Yoda). Further reinforcing this is that Jinn is said to be "the most skilled of the Jedi Warriors." By an OOU source. This suggests that Jinn's technical skill with a lightsaber outmatches even Mace and possibly rivals Yoda's, though of course Mace is still > Jinn via overall combative ability.

(b) There is no reason to believe that Quinlan Vos would even be a match for Qui-Gon Jinn. For starters, Vos has never been acclaimed as Council tier, whereas Jinn has literally a dozen quotes saying as much, plus Mace Windu himself commented that Jinn had a mastery of the Force. Vos simply doesn't match that, and there's no reason to believe that Vos would be capable of overwhelming Jinn with TK, as Jinn's own combative use of the Force equals Vos' (as Intr3pid said himself). In terms of swordsmanship, as stated above Jinn is > most of the Jedi council with a lightsaber (probably only below Mace). To add to this though, Jinn is stated to be on a stomping level, >> against Anoon Bondara, a Jedi Master who is said to be one of best lightsaber instructors and fighters in the history of the Order, an accolade that Sora Bulq has. Bondara is also a Juyo specialist and a master of teras kasi - most likely =/= Sora Bulq who Vos could only beat with external help. Jinn is said to have been capable of beating Bondara in a short period of time. Going even further to solidify my point, and donning a rather YouTube-esque style point: Jinn has mastered not only Ataru, but Makashi, and numerous quotes from duels involving Qui-Gon always talk about his perfect footwork or exploitation of footwork to beat his opponents. Furthermore, in a duel with Xanatos, Jinn adapted his style in a confined space by using Makashi-esque jabs, indicating that he could effectively incorporate Makashi into his precise Ataru bladework. Vos on the other hand was taught some stuff by Dooku, but that could hardly be considered mastery, probably just introductory stuff. Jinn is just an overall clear superior to Vos.

So in conclusion, Jinn could > almost the entire Jedi Council as of TPM (at LEAST > Plo Koon) up to presumably Mace Windu (TPM), which therefore makes him at least a very high tier 7 duelist. Agen Kolar is at best a high tier 7 duelist as well, meaning they are both at a rough parity in terms of the pecking order of duelists in the Order. Jinn gains the advantage through his "mastery of the Force", better Force feats, mastery of Makashi (that can be adapted into his style at will as confirmed by his duel with Xanatos) and by virtue of the OOU quote confirming that, as of TPM, Jinn was more technically skilled than any other Jedi Warrior (with the presumable exception of Yoda) as a swordsman, though please remember that technical skill is only one aspect of overall combative ability.

For these reasons, Jinn would beat Kolar in a very long and competitive fight. It wouldn't be easy, but Jinn would come through in the end.

With that comes the official end of the debate. I will post the thread for public voting and feedback. Also, thanks Intr3pid for this debate, I had fun

Can't wait to sit back and read through this bad boi beginning to end.

ONE FINAL POINT

God I can't believe I forgot this. Obi-Wan thinks to himself the Jinn was the best swordsmen he had ever seen, despite having sparred with the Council and even Mace Windu, so there's that as well

Thame Cerulian thought Dooku was > Yoda, Mace etc. Padawans tend to look at their Masters (and vice versa) with rose-tinted glasses on, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what Kenobi's saying there.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Thame Cerulian thought Dooku was > Yoda, Mace etc. Padawans tend to look at their Masters (and vice versa) with rose-tinted glasses on, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what Kenobi's saying there.

It's not my end-all point, but suggests rough parity with Mace/Yoda/Dooku. Anyway, it's supposed to gel with the rest of final points as an "add-on".

mmm Alrighty then

That's TPM Mace and pre-TPM Dooku, though, so not overly impressive.

Well I don't agree with that premise to start with, but my intention wasn't to initiate a separate debate in a CaV thread, so forget about it

That's fine, it's not even one of my primary arguments anyway.