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If Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus, and Goku and Jiren are probably just a bit weaker, how does this 2 on 1 go?

Really depends how literally we take Goku's statement that Broly is "probably" stronger than Beerus.

If we take it at face value, then: FPSSJ Broly > Beerus > MUI Goku > FP Jiren. In which case Broly should win.

If we don't accept Goku's statement as fact, then toss a coin. /shrug

No concrete evidence at this point suggests that MUI Goku is > Beerus. The only legitimate/canon evidence we have suggests the exact opposite, in fact.

And the Director's quote must have been referring to MUI, given that SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have been most consistently portrayed as equals(in both the manga and anime.) MUI is really the only thing that puts Goku above Vegeta these days.

That said, I think MUI is really close to Beerus, but I think Beerus would ultimately nudge it out.

I know Broly happens post ToP, but the way so much emphasis was placed on the basic god and blue transformations made it seem like this was sometime before that.

Plus Vegeta didn't even use his advanced form, did he? Just regular blue.

Both Goku and Vegeta just used their regular SSB forms. No KK or SSBE.

Given Toriyama's direct involvement with this film, I think it was geared more toward manga continuity, tbh. That would certainly explain why those forms weren't used here -- they were mostly Toei inventions.

Originally posted by Galan007
Both Goku and Vegeta just used their regular SSB forms. No KK or SSBE.

Given Toriyama's direct involvement with this film, I think it was geared more toward manga continuity, tbh... That would certainly explain why those forms weren't used here.


The advanced forms existed in manga, though. Vegeta had that funky super blue he pulled out against Toppo, and bull rushed Jiren with. And Goku technically achieved a Super Kaioken like form, according to Whis.

Vegeta's boost wasn't a different transformation in the manga, though -- it was just a zenkai'd/powered-up SSB. And Goku briefly tried to stack KK on top of SSB in the manga, but quickly realized it was all but worthless in a battle because of the physical toll it took on his body.

Obviously this is a sharp contrast to the...'additions' Toei made in the anime, wherein Goku routinely stacked KKx20 on top of SSB, and Vegeta actually gained a completely new transformation in SSBE(of which made him equal to KKx20.) /shrug

Ah, that was a zenkai boost? Thought those were done with, good to see they're very much a thing.

Oh yeah.

https://i.imgur.com/FdcXpVf.jpg

Given how SSJ Broly demolished Goku and Vegeta under like 20 seconds I dont think using KKx20 and evolution would have helped them much...

No way. Even if Freeza joined in, team work can only get you so far against overwheming power. Broly isn't Kale. (Points to the movie for not mentioning Kale.)

As far as Broly's power goes, could he beat a fully mastered MUI that never tired out?

Trunks was stronger then Perfect Cell. Enough to one shot him, probably. He never had chance of actually tagging him.

Originally posted by cdtm
As far as Broly's power goes, could he beat a fully mastered MUI that never tired out?

Trunks was stronger then Perfect Cell. Enough to one shot him, probably. He never had chance of actually tagging him. I mean, if Goku had infinite stamina(ala #17), then he'd ultimately win through attrition, I guess. But in a standard battle it's been proven in both the anime and manga that if you're at least close to the MUI-user's level, you can overcome its 'untouchability' factor.

USSJ Trunks was only stronger than an immensely suppressed Perfect Cell, but that's neither here nor there. Trunks couldn't hit Cell because he was bulky and slow -- Broly's speed is not hindered in any way.

Imo it would depend how fast can Broly grow in power might sound fanboyish but I could see him become stronger then UI.

Not fanboyish at all, given the astronomical gains Broly made in this film.

In just a few hours, Broly went from Freeza-henchman-level to many, many times beyond SSB-level, and showed no real signs of slowing down. This was his first true fight ever and look what he was able to accomplish.

Jfc.

Team wins.

Originally posted by Inedian
Team wins.


I'm undecided, honestly.


Like Galan said, it really depends on how you take the comments made in the movie. If he's stronger then Beerus (Or any lifeform alive, like Freeza said), then that means MUI loses.

Have we ever even seen a full power, going all out Beerus?

In the manga, when the God of Destruction tourney happened, maybe. But does that apply to this movie, and to Goku's comment?

Well Frieza witnessed the battle between MUI Goku and Jiren and he still said that...so there is that..

Originally posted by cdtm
Like Galan said, it really depends on how you take the comments made in the movie. If he's stronger then Beerus (Or any lifeform alive, like Freeza said), then that means MUI loses.

Have we ever even seen a full power, going all out Beerus?

In the manga, when the God of Destruction tourney happened, maybe. But does that apply to this movie, and to Goku's comment? As mentioned, I think this movie is more rooted in manga canon -- from Vegeta using SSG(and Goku not being the least bit surprised by it), to the lack of KK and SSBE, etc. That said, the *only* time we've seen Beerus really cut loose was in the manga, when he outfought all of the other GoDs simultaneously -- and Goku witnessed that battle, so he would have it as a benchmark by which to compare Broly.

Anywho, if we take Freeza's statement from the light novel literally, then it puts Broly above FP Jiren at the very least. Don't know for sure if Freeza can sense Godly ki, but he could definitely sense Jiren's ki:
https://i.imgur.com/PMve4F9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nvYPWXx.jpg

...And remember, Freeza was referring to normal SSJ Broly's power when he claimed him the strongest in the novel(ie. this was before Broly had attained his vastly more powerful FPSSJ state.) Couple that with all of the other promo material citing Broly as the most powerful being they had ever fought(along with established DB-logic, which dictates that each new major enemy must be the most powerful), and it makes sense that FPSSJ Broly was beyond the likes of Beerus, MUI Goku, and Jiren.

Not saying it is 100% irrefutable, just that it shouldn't be a surprise for people to think Broly was operating at such a level. /shrug

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm undecided, honestly.


Like Galan said, it really depends on how you take the comments made in the movie. If he's stronger then Beerus (Or any lifeform alive, like Freeza said), then that means MUI loses.

Have we ever even seen a full power, going all out Beerus?

In the manga, when the God of Destruction tourney happened, maybe. But does that apply to this movie, and to Goku's comment?

I have no doubt that Broly > MUI Goku. MUI Goku and Jiren would be far far better than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from Broly movie. I think those two together could hurt and beat Broly. Of course i am also not sure, but Jiren and MUI are really massive power that i think they should win this.

We haven't even close see the full power of Beerus in anime. In manga we have seen the more serious approach of Beerus, but i don't think he went fully out, none of th GoDs actually (Zeno said how brutal their fight was though). I think if Beerus went all out that would be destructive power like no other for now. I think we have yet to see a 100% real divine power of Beerus.

And Goku is not on that level to sense the full power of Beerus... it's too much for him now.

Until clear showings, divine Beerus stomps mortal FPSSJ Broly... he would be entertained though.

It's a canon source.

I hope we get to see Broly wipe his ass with Jiren's face one day...

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh yeah.

https://i.imgur.com/FdcXpVf.jpg

Awesome

Originally posted by Estacado
I hope we get to see Broly wipe his ass with Jiren's face one day...

I'd honestly like to see him try.

That, and against MUI Goku. Or even Omen UI.

You know how Piccolo kept charging his makankosappo?

Seemed like he could charge that sucker indefinitely. Think Goku can do same, with the Kamehameha?

If not, would Piccolo with MUI and his special overcharge beam be "broken?" As in, he activates MUI (Assume he learns how), then just keeps charging up the beam while dodging attacks, until it beats anybody.

That requires a no limits falicy, but judging by the Universe 6/7 games, the attack could keep charging as long as he wants.

Nah, Piccolo still has a finite amount of energy to work with, and therefore could only charge an attack for so long before plateauing.

#17 on the other hand....

Ever hear of Kidd Radd? Pretty famous webcomic during the sprite comic heyday (Like 8-bit theater and this Megaman one I didn't read)

The main character was from an eight bit cart, that got rom dumped. His Radd Beam was capped at something like 128, due to limits of an 8 bit environment. He goes to a 16 bit game, and suddenly he's charging hundreds of thousands, and one shooting bosses. And when he's forced to charge up in the mainframe, hooked up to the internet, for four or five hours, he would have wiped out every internet capable device on earth.


Your talk about Android #17 made me remember him, because I bet it would be just like that, except replace mainframes with something a lot bigger.

I agree with Supremex... nothing states Beerus is above MUI...NOTHING!!! Its the opposite tbh and Jiren was already said to be above the Gods, so the statement of Goku not being above GOD level is false since he have already beat someone that surpass that level. Also, Toppo was said to become a God of destruction and Vegeta still owned him. Yep, that statement is false and should be used as evidence of the show.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with Supremex... nothing states Beerus is above MUI. Nothing states MUI was beyond Beerus, though. As mentioned, the actual evidence at hand suggests the exact opposite.

And we've been through this before: all GoDs are NOT created equal, and Beerus is undoubtedly at the top of the GoD totem pole. That said, Jiren surpassing Belmond =/= Jiren surpassing Beerus. Vegeta beating Toppo(a GoD CANDIDATE) =/= Vegeta beating Beerus. Etc.

Agree as well. Supremex is always on it when it comes to his posts.

Again, there's the no kill rule in the ToP. The fact Toppo could not kill Vegeta, means he never used the full power of Destruction against him.

To clarify...

SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta WERE portrayed as equals in the film, and THAT'S what we should be looking at -- their MAX powers.

If we look at their lower levels, then at first glance it makes it seem like BASE Goku ~/> SSG Vegeta, based on their individual bouts with Ikari Broly. Obviously I'm not going to assume that base Goku can actually hang with SSG Vegeta in a battle, because that's just foolish. There were clearly inconsistencies in how their respective power-levels were portrayed in the film UNTIL Goku and Vegeta both reached their SSB states and equalized. Additionally, it was never implied that Goku had to lower his ki to match Vegeta's before they fused, which further implies that they were intended to be equals.

IOW, in the anime, manga, AND film, FP Vegeta is on par with FP Goku. UI is literally *the* only thing that puts Goku noticeably ahead of Vegeta -- *the* only thing that Vegeta would still be "desperately trying to catch up to" at this point.

As for Broly and Jiren: Freeza has sensed BOTH of their powers, and still believed Broly was well beyond ALL in the light novel(and again, that wasn't even FPSSJ Broly -- it was just normal SSJ Broly.) Couple that with the promotional material citing Broly as the strongest being they have ever faced, and the only unfused being who has been confirmed as 'probably' more powerful than Beerus(THE most powerful GoD), and I'd say Broly's intended level is pretty clear, tbh.


And as I said to carv: FP Jiren being more powerful than Belmond does not make him more powerful than Beerus by default, given that Beerus is far and away the most powerful GoD. So that comparison doesn't work for me. I understand where you're coming from, but it simply comes down to me viewing the evidence at hand a bit differently than you.

Toriyama clearly has Beerus on a sliding scale where power is concerned. The stronger Goku and Vegeta are written, the stronger Beerus seems to become as a corollary. In BoG it supposedly takes 70% of Beerus' power to defeat n00b-SSG Goku. Fast-forward to just after the Zamasu arc(set AFTER Goku/Vegeta had trained in the RoSaT for a few days/years AND received multiple zenkais from all the battles they'd been involved in since BoG), and Beerus can casually one-arm ragdoll FPSSB Vegeta after becoming slightly annoyed. Fast-forward to the Zen Exhibition Match, and Goku is absolutely awestruck by the power/skill Beerus is displaying against the other GoDs, and flat-out states he couldn't possibly hope to compete with him. Fast-forward to the Broly film, and the director implies that Beerus is still above even MUI Goku, and Goku STILL uses Beerus' power as a measuring stick for Broly's power, despite all of the hyper-powerful warriors he'd encountered at the ToP(inc. FP Jiren.)

And tbh, all of this aligns with the statement Toriyama made when he was promoting DBS a while back: "Well... First off, right now I don't have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis."


srug

The Vegeta vs Beerus fight, was Vegeta koed or did Beerus just plow him into the dirt? Iirc, Vegeta was giving Beerus a good fight and that speaks volumes to me given that it took Beerus true power to take Vegeta out (dont remember if he was koed or not). Also, TOP Vegeta>>>>the Vegeta Beerus fought.

Just looked. Seems like that fight took place after TOP.

Originally posted by carver9
The Vegeta vs Beerus fight, was Vegeta koed or did Beerus just plow him into the dirt? Iirc, Vegeta was giving Beerus a good fight and that speaks volumes to me given that it took Beerus true power to take Vegeta out (dont remember if he was koed or not). Also, TOP Vegeta>>>>the Vegeta Beerus fought. Beerus was playing around. FPSSB Vegeta wasn't.

Vegeta got carried away and struck Beerus(a punch Beerus tanked without hardly flinching, mind you.) Beerus then got annoyed, and proceeded to casually one arm-pwn Vegeta back to his base level.


https://i.imgur.com/JIg91Sa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ffsYtjr.jpg

That scan confirms it. Vegeta even admits he is no match for him and Whis said "what did you expect". Thanks Gal.

What if Goku and jiren did this in a ToP ring out scenerio, and were somehow on the same side?

The goal becomes not to beat him, but to simply not lose until you figure out how to ring him out.