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Rules:

Standard mindsets

Standard equipment

Starting distance is 20 meters

Both characters are at their respective peaks

Legends feats apply

Location:

The Emperor's Throne Room from ROTJ

Make his Highness proud, HP.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Make his Highness proud, HP.

Win this Meaty.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Win this Meaty.

I'm actually rooting for Meaty tbh.

Originally posted by TheMuser
I'm actually rooting for Meaty tbh.

HP, repping Dooku. Unexpected tbh, I mean Dooku isn't exactly a forte of yours. No offence meant by that but you've always been more of an SK/Vader/Valk/Outlander guy. Interested to see what you can make of this Bro.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Make his Highness proud, HP.

This too.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
This too. Bias. -_-

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Bias. -_-

I'm not judging so it's irrelevant but yeah I want my brother to win. Dooku is also above Traya imo.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
I'm not judging so it's irrelevant but yeah I want my brother to win. Dooku is also above Traya imo. I feel like I should challenge you to a debate on the subject as well. -_-

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
HP, repping Dooku. Unexpected tbh, I mean Dooku isn't exactly a forte of yours. No offence meant by that but you've always been more of an SK/Vader/Valk/Outlander guy. Interested to see what you can make of this Bro.

MP needed someone to debate so I thought I'd take up the task. It's not exactly my forte but I'm sure it's nothing a little research and time won't fix.

If you need any quotes HP, PM me.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
I'm not judging so it's irrelevant but yeah I want my brother to win. Dooku is also above Traya imo.

I'm not sure if there is even going to be judges. MP and I haven't sorted that out yet. I'm also not sure who's posting first by I'm hoping it will be MP.

*I'm also not sure who's posting first but I'm hoping it will be MP.

Count me out for sake of bias, tho tbh dooku should win this walking away if the right arguments were used. Tho i'd rather see MP win.

Originally posted by TheMuser
Count me out for sake of bias, tho tbh dooku should win this walking away if the right arguments were used. Tho i'd rather see MP win. Traya Would trash him.

Dooku's best arguments can't contend with Traya's.

Will be posting soon.

Traya's best arguments aren't even close to Ventress' tbh.

Ventress couldn't contend with Jinn, let alone Traya; she'd ragdoll Ventress hard.

Traya >>> Vrook Lamar, Zez Kai-Ell, Kavar, Lonna Vash >> Lucien Draay < Darth Vader.

This is almost unfair.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/115/e/d/darth_traya_by_josh_eeewwa-d4xiiss.jpg

Judges, public vote or whatever can be decided on later down the track.

Let's keep it simple to start off with. I won't be dumping many, if any, feats or accolades, I'll just refer to the important ones and dump them down later when we get more into specifics. For now I'll just present a handful of paragraphs that open up my arguments, and we'll go on from there.

The best way to establish the foundation of where Traya is at power-wise is to demonstrate her relative parity to Meetra Surik. By the end of Kotor 2, Surik is an insanely powerful combatant. Even very early on into her journey while she was still regrowing her strength in the Force and before she had even built a lightsaber, she defeated Visas Marr in one-on-one combat. Marr was Nihilus' shadow hand (i.e. apprentice), and therefore stronger than any other Sith in the triumvirate apart from Sion and Nihilus himself. These include converted Jedi and Battlemasters, who are attributed as "experts in more melee styles than most beings know exist." The Jedi and Sith of this era were highly trained for combat with each other, and are suggested as being at some sort of parity in overall combat effectiveness, if not arguably greater, than the PT era Jedi Order. This is quite early on in Surik's growth back into the force as well. Her growth in power from then on is exponential, to the point where she fights through the Malachor temple full of the deadliest Sith assassins and Battlemasters, then fights Traya on a DS Nexus whilst the whole time being simultaneously pulled apart from the planet itself. Oh, and many of the Sith she has to face in the academy had to have killed a minimum of ten Jedi to receive their rank and Tremor sword, called masterblades. Traya is stated to be more powerful than Surik, but lost due to her former apprentices' combat prowess. Even Mandalore says toward the end of Kotor 2 that he thought Revan was a one man army until he met Surik and battled with her, hence placing Surik at a parity with Jedi Knight Revan, who is > SF Malak, which could also arguably mean that Traya could potentially be > Exar Kun, but that's a relatively long and arguable chain. The point here is that Canderous believed there was a parity with Revan and Surik in combat prowess.

In terms of Force feats, Traya just outclasses Tyrannus definitively. Some of her cooler and badass feats include being able to teleport, TK'ing Jedi Master Zez-Kai Ell without even gesturing, manhandling Hanharr, ragdolling Visas Marr and Surik's other companions with ease, completely dominating the Jedi Masters Surik brings to Dantooine and draining them all of the Force simultaneously, ragdolling Darth Sion, killing a dozen or more deadly Sith Assassins of Revan's teachings in one attack, hiding her presence from the Jedi Council, overriding the dozens of Sith holocrons at Telos to attack Surik from across the galaxy (while admittedly on a DS nexus) etc.

Traya's combat abilities are not to be trifled with either. It's implied that she gained leadership of Revan's converted Jedi and Sith by the blade, and could arguably mean she was the most skilled of all the Sith in lightsaber combat. Traya also admits to Surik on Malachor that she was Traya's equal in lightsaber dueling; and as established above, Surik is ridiculously skilled in this area. This suggests that Traya, according to Canderous' potential scaling, could mean that Traya is >/= Jedi Knight Revan in lightsaber combat.

Traya also has incredible sense and foresight, and potentially possesses Shatterpoint. Another more generalised feat is mindtricking the council. IIRC the DE sourcebook describes such feats as astronomical, or something along those lines.

Your move

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Traya's best arguments aren't even close to Ventress' tbh.

Will respond within the next few hours. Nice opener MP.

HP's opener from what he's told me could be about his arguments could be a massive fail or a solid argument. I'll wait to see which.

Originally posted by Meatpants
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/115/e/d/darth_traya_by_josh_eeewwa-d4xiiss.jpg

Judges, public vote or whatever can be decided on later down the track.

Let's keep it simple to start off with. I won't be dumping many, if any, feats or accolades, I'll just refer to the important ones and dump them down later when we get more into specifics. For now I'll just present a handful of paragraphs that open up my arguments, and we'll go on from there.

The best way to establish the foundation of where Traya is at power-wise is to demonstrate her relative parity to Meetra Surik. By the end of Kotor 2, Surik is an insanely powerful combatant. Even very early on into her journey while she was still regrowing her strength in the Force and before she had even built a lightsaber, she defeated Visas Marr in one-on-one combat. Marr was Nihilus' shadow hand (i.e. apprentice), and therefore stronger than any other Sith in the triumvirate apart from Sion and Nihilus himself. These include converted Jedi and Battlemasters, who are attributed as "experts in more melee styles than most beings know exist." The Jedi and Sith of this era were highly trained for combat with each other, and are suggested as being at some sort of parity in overall combat effectiveness, if not arguably greater, than the PT era Jedi Order. This is quite early on in Surik's growth back into the force as well. Her growth in power from then on is exponential, to the point where she fights through the Malachor temple full of the deadliest Sith assassins and Battlemasters, then fights Traya on a DS Nexus whilst the whole time being simultaneously pulled apart from the planet itself. Oh, and many of the Sith she has to face in the academy had to have killed a minimum of ten Jedi to receive their rank and Tremor sword, called masterblades. Traya is stated to be more powerful than Surik, but lost due to her former apprentices' combat prowess. Even Mandalore says toward the end of Kotor 2 that he thought Revan was a one man army until he met Surik and battled with her, hence placing Surik at a parity with Jedi Knight Revan, who is > SF Malak, which could also arguably mean that Traya could potentially be > Exar Kun, but that's a relatively long and arguable chain. The point here is that Canderous believed there was a parity with Revan and Surik in combat prowess.

In terms of Force feats, Traya just outclasses Tyrannus definitively. Some of her cooler and badass feats include being able to teleport, TK'ing Jedi Master Zez-Kai Ell without even gesturing, manhandling Hanharr, ragdolling Visas Marr and Surik's other companions with ease, completely dominating the Jedi Masters Surik brings to Dantooine and draining them all of the Force simultaneously, ragdolling Darth Sion, killing a dozen or more deadly Sith Assassins of Revan's teachings in one attack, hiding her presence from the Jedi Council, overriding the dozens of Sith holocrons at Telos to attack Surik from across the galaxy (while admittedly on a DS nexus) etc.

Traya's combat abilities are not to be trifled with either. It's implied that she gained leadership of Revan's converted Jedi and Sith by the blade, and could arguably mean she was the most skilled of all the Sith in lightsaber combat. Traya also admits to Surik on Malachor that she was Traya's equal in lightsaber dueling; and as established above, Surik is ridiculously skilled in this area. This suggests that Traya, according to Canderous' potential scaling, could mean that Traya is >/= Jedi Knight Revan in lightsaber combat.

Traya also has incredible sense and foresight, and potentially possesses Shatterpoint. Another more generalised feat is mindtricking the council. IIRC the DE sourcebook describes such feats as astronomical, or something along those lines.

Your move Good job.

Anyone want to judge? We're in need of judges.

I can judge the merit of the arguments, if you guys feel like it.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Anyone want to judge? We're in need of judges. May I judge?

I promise to not be biased.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Anyone want to judge? We're in need of judges. I love judging debates, did it a lot on CV in the times of my activity, you can count me in

I barely know both of you, so no personal bias possible

All 3 of you are now judges. We'll probably make it 5 judges so just 2 more are required.

Originally posted by HP Legend
All 3 of you are now judges. We'll probably going to make it 5 judges so just 2 more are required.
Ahem.

Originally posted by Intr3pId
Ahem.

You want to judge? Sure okay. Guess that's 4 then.

My first time judging, sweet.

Just realised there's quite a few typos in my post which I can't edit because of KMC's editing system. Oh well.

Predictable, but short and sweet. Nice work Bro.

Nice, but sweet and short. Predictable work Bro.

Man that argument just collapses in on itself entirely.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Man that argument just collapses in on itself entirely.

PM me your problems with it.

Asking AP for logic is like asking God to die against a human. Doesn't happen.

I knew there was a high chance you were going to try the Nyriss scaling.

Yeah, and he completely failed to understand the context. A pity, truly.

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Asking AP for logic is like asking God to die against a human. Doesn't happen.

Coming from a Caedus wanker.

Tbh I support AP's goals, just question his methods.

Your chain really breaks down with Nyriss, because she was on an extremely potent DS Nexus that was strong enough to make FOTJ Luke and Jaina have a tough fight against six relatively unimportant combatants. This means Surik's power would have been *heavily* gimped here, and Nyriss' amped, so we can't establish Nyriss > Surik since Nyriss experienced an insane amp from the planet. Even in this state, Surik was able to prevent the lightning from actually hitting her with a quick barrier defense, but was still forced back. We simply don't know how Nyriss does against Surik without the extremely potent amp from Dromund Kaas, but it definitely would have been more equal considering that Surik was able to form a quick barrier defense against lightning that could turn armoured guards into charred husks.

On top of that, Dooku's own lightning feats aren't really impressive.


Now this would be great if you could actually scale Traya to The Exile which you can't because the latter killed her while on a Dark Side Nexus after depleting her Force Reserves while fighting through an army of Sith assasins which you actually made note of here. There is no way to scale any of Meetra's showings to Traya because they're not comparable in the slightest.


Traya scales off Surik because she's explicitly stated by an OOU source as being more powerful than the exile by the time they face each other in the Trayus academy core. That means Traya is more powerful in the Force than Surik, who's mentioned by Canderous as having a parity to redeemed Revan, who is > SF Malak and therefore also > Exar Kun if you follow that quote. Surik wins due to her superior combat skills, not power in the Force.

Although scaling is important, feats and combative ability also matter. Traya is > Dooku in combative feats and potential abilities during a fight, most notably teleporting and shatterpoint, both of which would throw an unprepped Dooku totally off-guard, imo. In terms of overall power, I'll reiterate that the Sith of the triumvirate, or rather the converted Jedi from the Mandalorian Wars are implied to be >/= to PT-era Jedi in terms of overall combative abilities, since they had to train heavily to face other force sensitives on a regular basis, and many had tonnes of experience in that area. It's also implied that Traya won her position as head of the Sith through her skill with the blade, no small feat against elite Dark Jedi and Sith who had killed well over ten Jedi in single combat.

I feel like that's all I need to address at this point.

Originally posted by Meatpants
she was on an extremely potent DS Nexus that was strong enough to make FOTJ Luke and Jaina have a tough fight against six relatively unimportant combatants.

Hardly a tough fight.

Other than that, nice job.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeah, and he completely failed to understand the context. A pity, truly.

Oh look at that AP continues to shitpost despite me asking it to PM me it's issues with my post. Too scared to PM because there is no context. Not surprising at all.

Also my reply should be up this weekend but after that replies will take significantly longer what with me visiting family over Christmas and New Year and all.

That's cool. I'm trying to keep the flow of the debate on one subject at a time instead of branching out into ten different lines of arguments and making a huge mess.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Coming from a Caedus wanker.

You were once a Caedus wanker yourself AP and wanking Kun is arguably far worse.

And you took the bait as usual. Jesus, prove that you can leave it alone lol.

We can discuss it over Discord or in a PM so it doesn't interfere. I don't really mind which tbh.

Response will be done by the end of the week so expect something soon.

Nice

Originally posted by HP Legend
Response will be done by the end of the week so expect something soon.

End of next week*