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Here's the rules I propose, they're pretty basic:

* Both characters are at their respective peaks
* Legends feats apply
* 20k characters max per poster per turn
* Judges and format: TBD

Okay, this matchup is imo really simple. Jinn stomps Kenobi in terms of accolades and feats. Jinn has multiple accolades stating that he was one of the greatest Jedi knights in the galaxy, and is confirmed by a ridiculous amount of quotes as council tier. He is described, again in a bunch of quotes as a skilled swordsman. According to the New Essential Guide to Characters, he's a master duelist by "anyone's" standards, and there's another quote even indicating that he's the most skilled swordsman in the Order at the time of TPM (probably with the exception of Yoda, who is known to barely, if ever display his combat skills), and Obi-Wan as of TPM thinks that Jinn is the best swordsman he had ever seen. Additionally, Jinn is said to have mastered Makashi on top of his primary form of Ataru, which gives him an incredible edge over AotC Kenobi's almost exclusive Ataru.

In terms of the Force matchup, both combatants would resort to lightsaber combat, but Jinn also wins. He's confirmed by a dozen quotes as council tier, and both Mace Windu and Xanatos said/thought respectively that Jinn had a mastery of the Force. As shown with his sparring match with Feemor and Xanatos, Jinn was capable of casually integrating force moves into his lightsaber sequences, so he has no trouble there, though Jinn, like his master Dooku and what he passed on to Obi-Wan, had a preference for "pure" dueling.

Feel free to respond whenever you can

In addition to that, Dooku thinks to himself in his duel with Kenobi:



This indicates that Kenobi had not reached Jinn's level of swordsmanship, let alone exceeded it.

Have multiple commitments but I'll try to respond soon

*rubs hands together*

LOTL is top tier but I have faith in MP. Go on, you can win, I'm rooting for you.

Looks good.

I do like Meatpants, but Qui-Gon wank is a threat to Maul lowballing.

Destroy him, LotL.

To be fair, that opener has nothing with lowbaling Maul, it doesn't even mention him.

Two debates at once MP?

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Two debates at once MP?

*Three

If anything, that opener WANKS Maul, because I'm essentially arguing that Jinn is one of the best duelists in the Order, meaning that Maul is > most Jedi as of TPM.

Originally posted by Meatpants
If anything, that opener WANKS Maul, because I'm essentially arguing that Jinn is one of the best duelists in the Order, meaning that Maul is > most Jedi as of TPM.

That's the point though. If Jinn is good then that opposes Maul lowballing because of Maul's fight with Jinn.

Anyway, I've evolved. I don't need much of Jinn's showings against Maul except for a handful of autistic quotes about footwork and stuff like that. Worry not, Maul will not be lowballed.

Anyone know how to insert images with the picture appearing, not just the hyperlink?

Copy Image Address and then insert with the 'IMG' button.

Cool

So, this is going to be divided into two parts and the first one focuses on establishing comparability between Qui Gon and Obi Wan up to TPM. The second one concentrates on why Obi Wan by the time of AoTC is just better than his master

(1/2)



Yeah, except, Obi Wan by TPM alone is no stranger to these accolades, they go as far ago for him to when he is just a teenager



Obi Wan is just 19 years old in this story. So, when he is merely a teenager, he is already among the best Jedi in an era which is the prime of the Jedi.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291526/6162661-4764226152-49327.png

This too is a year before TPM.



This story is set in 29 BBY, but the quote clearly says that he became one of the best Jedi under Qui Gon, meaning when he was still his apprentice



Consummate being synonymous with "perfect" or "ultimate" etc.

However, this one does stand out

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111291526/6093711-1366375968-c22e8.jpg

Credit: Obi Wan Kenobi-Order of the Jedi

He is the "embodiment" of the Jedi, by the virtue of his wisdom and strength. Now, such accolades are only given to high tier masters like Mace or Yoda or the very best of the Sith, like Sidious and Vitiate. To my knowledge, even Jinn doesn't have such an accolade. The only other apprentice who does, is Maul, Obi Wan's Sith counterpart, or his antithesis in the story. That is not to say that Kenobi as a padawan is better than these people( or even close to them) but it should indicate that he is on a very high level regardless.

Even more impressive is that he is Yoda's first choice for many unconventional missions, over the remaining Jedi. Granted, other Council Jedi would be considered for other missions, but to even indicate this for some missions means that Obi Wan is right there among the best of the Jedi and it is stated there too. Overall, it should be evident that he is upper council tier by TPM, something that becomes even more evident based on his feats

There are also quotes that state that Obi Wan is among the most legendary heroes of all time in TPM, but I have to find them. Anyways, they are not needed here.

Clearly, Kenobi was the absolute prodigy of the Jedi Order at this time. I recommend that you go through this thread

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/lordofthelight/blog/obi-wan-kenobis-true-power-jedi-initiate/133955/

Other respect threads for TPM Kenobi as well

Both Yoda and Qui Gon think very highly of him, clearly. That's not the only praise he gets though.



On sparring with him, even Council members like Mace and Saesee remark highly on TPM Kenobi.

There are other tidbits like Siri Tachi, one of the best apprentices in the temple, remarking that Obi Wan is the best among them all, but that should be obvious at this stage anyway.

So, there should be an indication of special training, shouldn't there be? After all, a prodigy( and Kenobi was indeed one, given his superiority over all other padawans of his generation and that accolades and feats point to him being upper Council level when he is just an apprentice) has to have something to show for it right?

Well, for one, Qui Gon remarked that his knowledge was impressive



But yeah, let's see the kind of stuff he taught Obi Wan



This power is called "Memory Rub" or something along those lines in the ToTJ Compendium. Now, this power is listed among the Sith powers there, powers that the Jedi of the time barely knew even existed and simply heard of them though whispered rumors about Sith powers. Even in the PT era, only a select few Jedi have learnt it.

Yet Qui Gon teaches it to Obi Wan when the latter is just an apprentice. Now, extrapolating this line of thinking, we can clearly see that not only do the Jedi Masters see fit to reveal to him exotic force techniques that are clearly dangerous but that Obi Wan is still the characteristic and model Jedi that we all have seen, it can be understood that his willpower and force mastery have to be incredibly high.

Very few beings in SW have shown the necessary mastery to use dark techniques and still walk the path of the light and have the characteristics of a model Jedi still( there are countless cases of ancient Jedi being driven insane on learning Sith teachings or acquiring dark power). Granted, Jinn is among them, obviously, but this is about the level Obi Wan is at when is is just a padawan. It is about the level of training he is given at such an early stage. So, it is not just his raw power, he has the training to match his talent to boot.

Tidbits like Darsha Assant( someone Maul considered a worthy opponent) doubting whether she could even hold her own with him in a knowledge based discussion is just icing on the cake.

So now that we have cleared up the misconception of Obi Wan not having accolades to match Jinn's let us move on to the most pertinent line of comparison between them, their sparring match



So, I have heard people simply disregard this on the basis that it is just a sparring match, but it is clearly not true, based on the evidence

1. This was clearly stated to be "no lighthearted spar" making it evident that this was an actual demonstration of their abilities

2. By the end of the match, Qui Gon was panting and sweating hard. Another clear indication that Qui Gon was pushed to his limits( so was Obi Wan but still). To emphasize how impressive this actually is, this was 8 years before TPM, at a time Jinn would have been in peak physical state( lessening physicals vs increasing augmentation by his power) and he is still reduced to the same state as Maul did to him on Tatooine

3. While the text does make it clear that Obi Wan didn't actually win the match, he did manage to "state his case firmly" which as clearly stated, was that Obi Wan wanted to be seen as an equal.

You get the point. Even if I become generous and say that Qui Gon is noticeably superior to him at this stage, it is clearly obvious that they are comparable enough and that Jinn obviously does not have any significant, let alone big edge over him.

Another more pertinent fact is that Obi Wan is just 17 at this stage. Obviously his growth rate is going to be higher than Qui Gon's so by the time we get to TPM, he should be near equal to his master, should he not?

This is exactly what the evidence tells us



So, Obi Wan only lacks in experience, compared to Qui Gon, even by TPM. As a swordsman otherwise, he is equal to Qui Gon.

This is supported by Obi Wan learning nearly everything his master can teach him



You get the point. Obi Wan has almost all the knowledge and techniques of Qui Gon by TPM and he has learned them to the extent that Qui Gon has almost nothing left to teach him. So, at this point, Obi Wan being almost equal to Qui Gon has to be evident.

Lastly, let's not take only Obi Wan's sparring match with Qui Gon as evidence. Let's look at his sparring match with Plo Koon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzEaADRS7Pk

Now, the sparring match is game mechanics and that is not canon however, the cutscene that happens afterwards is canon( in Legends) in the game

Plo directly admits inferiority to Obi Wan in the game



Yes, he sparred with other Jedi Masters in the game as well, but none of them admitted inferiority to him as Plo did, they merely remarked that he was impressive overall.

In conjunction with all his accolades stating that he is among the best Jedi and that he matched Jinn when he was just 17, the quote about him being equal to Jinn, only lacking his experience, this feat supports all of them pretty well, and vice versa. Overall, all the evidences stack up perfectly with the view and my stance that Obi Wan by TPM is Qui Gon level.

The impressive thing about the battle with Plo is that Plo gave Obi Wan's victory to his raw power in the force, not just his skills with the lightsaber. The accolade about Plo being one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in history is pretty well known, but actually, Plo was among the greatest heroes in the galaxy, when he himself was just a padawan



So, as a padawan, Obi Wan is better than a Jedi Master having centuries of experience over being among the greatest heroes in the galaxy when the Jedi Master himself was just a padawan.

So, the historical hype Kenobi gets during TPM alone is

Kenobi as an apprentice>One of the most powerful Jedi in history>>>>>>>>One of the greatest heroes in the galaxy

This is all when the Jedi are at their prime. Taken at face value, if Qui Gon wasn't actually superior to Obi Wan by TPM, this alone would be hype greater than any that Jinn has to his credit.

Summarizing:

1. Kenobi has numerous accolades of him being among the best Jedi in the galaxy as a padawan, has statements implying his training was top notch, and is held in an incredibly high regard by Yoda, Qui Gon, and other Council Members

2. Kenobi contended with Jinn when he was just 17 years old and proved that he was loosely comparable to the latter. Getting to TPM, he has learned nearly everything Qui Gon can teach him and is equal to Qui Gon, barring the latter's experience

3. He is superior to Plo Koon and the latter directly admits inferiority to him, citing Kenobi's strength in the force as a reason for his victory over him.

With that, Kenobi by TPM, being comparable to Qui Gon is probably established. Here, part 2 is about how AoTC Kenobi, someone, superior to TPM Kenobi in every single way and significantly, is better than Qui Gon. Researching all these sources took up too much of my time, so I'll probably get to part 2 tomorrow or late today. You shouldn't respond to this part till I get part 2 up too.

F*** the images

Yeah, the images have stuffed the formatting.

Excellent work, my friend. More than I expected, this will be a challenge. Will await Part 2 before making my reply

You could have typed that one out

Originally posted by RealistRacism
You could have typed that one out

What's your thoughts on the matchup?

I think Kenobi wins solidly.

Brilliant post LOTL, interested to see how MP will respond.

It was a great post, but for my part, I think he stretches a lot of these sources to fit his point.

Honestly LOTL deserves some credit for being one of the last goods debaters on CV. Give him Obi Wan and he'll do wonders.

Originally posted by TheMuser
Honestly LOTL deserves some credit for being one of the last goods debaters on CV. Give him Obi Wan and he'll do wonders.

Good* Typos man, Typos

Nice post LOTL.