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Pointless thread, really. Mace is objectively more powerful than Dooku, and new sources maintain Sidious' slight superiority over Yoda.

Team 2 obviously.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Pointless thread, really. Mace is objectively more powerful than Dooku, and new sources maintain Sidious' slight superiority over Yoda.

Which new sources?

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77
Team 2 obviously.

Reasoning?

Hate to admit it but team 2 is superior. Sidious is>Yoda from the novel and Mace>Dooku according to official statements 8 Bordering on 9> plain 8 ....I don't think there is much convo to be had here.

Team 2, gewd fight.

'Official statements' lmfao. You can use the tiers as a guide, but when has Lucas actually adhered to them? Let's look at the fights from Lucas' point of view, keeping in mind his limited understanding of combat (things like Vaapad, the interplay between styles, different tactics etc.)

Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Mace: Tier 8 - Sidious: Tier 9
Winner: Mace/Draw

Obi-Wan vs Anakin Skywalker
Kenobi: Tier 8 - Anakin: Tier 9
Winner: Obi-Wan/Draw (They were equals)

Count Dooku vs Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker
Kenobi: Tier 8 - Dooku: Tier 8 - Anakin: Tier 9
Winner: Early on Dooku, Later on Anakin.

I could go on and on. There have been reasons (more like ridiculous rationalisations) given for these instances, but it's stupid to suggest that George had them in mind. Do you honestly think that if Lucas had Mace on the tier below Sidious, the reason in his head for the Windu victory/draw would be thanks to some dark-side channelling lightsaber style? Also, the Count isn't an 8 bordering on a 9 like Mace, and the gaps between tiers are huge. Yet Lucas was happy to show Dooku easily outmuscling the duo on two occasions, flooring and later ragdolling Kenobi, kicking Anakin across the room etc. Doesn't seem like he's adhering to these 'levels.' Tell me with a straight face that by Kenobi getting ragdolled, the intent wasn't to show us; Dooku >> Obi-Wan, but instead that the latter was just caught off-guard in the middle of combat like a ****ing retard? Was that really Lucas' line of thought? Of course not.

Point is; The tiers exist, fine. But Lucas doesn't care about them, as anyone can beat anyone based on circumstance/need of the plot.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
'Official statements' lmfao. You can use the tiers as a guide, but when has Lucas actually adhered to them? Let's look at the fights from Lucas' point of view, keeping in mind his limited understanding of combat (things like Vaapad, the interplay between styles, different tactics etc.)

Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious
Mace: Tier 8 - Sidious: Tier 9
Winner: Mace/Draw

Obi-Wan vs Anakin Skywalker
Kenobi: Tier 8 - Anakin: Tier 9
Winner: Obi-Wan/Draw (They were equals)

Count Dooku vs Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker
Kenobi: Tier 8 - Dooku: Tier 8 - Anakin: Tier 9
Winner: Early on Dooku, Later on Anakin.

I could go on and on. There have been reasons (more like ridiculous rationalisations) given for these instances, but it's stupid to suggest that George had them in mind. Do you honestly think that if Lucas had Mace on the tier below Sidious, the reason in his head for the Windu victory/draw would be thanks to some dark-side channelling lightsaber style? Also, the Count isn't an 8 bordering on a 9 like Mace, and the gaps between tiers are huge. Yet Lucas was happy to show Dooku easily outmuscling the duo on two occasions, flooring and later ragdolling Kenobi, kicking Anakin across the room etc. Doesn't seem like he's adhering to these 'levels.' Tell me with a straight face that by Kenobi getting ragdolled, the intent wasn't to show us; Dooku >> Obi-Wan, but instead that the latter was just caught off-guard in the middle of combat like a ****ing retard? Was that really Lucas' line of thought? Of course not.

Point is; The tiers exist, fine. But Lucas doesn't care about them, as anyone can beat anyone based on circumstance/need of the plot.

So did you debunk....Anything?

You pointed out the rational that has been used to justify these examples you gave. And you agree that the tiers exist and by extension can be used, as they are a "Official Statement". You also implicitly agreed that anyone can beat anyone if the circumstances are correct. But what if these circumstances are not at play? Are you claiming that a lower tier can beat a higher tier for a majority assuming no outside circumstances despite the word of our overlords?

I will say this. I personally dislike the tiering system given to us by our overlords because it completely takes the fun and debate out of it. I just don't see a way around them.

Debunk? What was I debunking? I laughed at it being some official source, since it's not published and George clearly didn't care about them whilst making RotS. I was simply stating that while the tiers do exist, Lucas couldn't really care for them a great deal because of how he depicted the fights. I don't believe it's plausible to suggest that he had all of these circumstances in his head when he was filming the fight scenes, showing a complete disregard for this 'system of levels.'

Yes, I do think if the circumstances weren't there that certain characters could beat others from higher on the list. There are inconsistencies in the tiering system, as the supposed Richter scale-like tiers are meant to have huge gaps between each other, yet Mace is an "8 bordering on a 9?" That's not possible.

They were never intended to be used in forum discussions like these, as Ant admitted when he was first pitching these ideas years ago. But now we try and rationalise all events we see around them. Stupid.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Debunk? What was I debunking? I laughed at it being some official source, since it's not published and George clearly didn't care about them whilst making RotS. I was simply stating that while the tiers do exist, Lucas couldn't really care for them a great deal because of how he depicted the fights. I don't believe it's plausible to suggest that he had all of these circumstances in his head when he was filming the fight scenes, showing a complete disregard for this 'system of levels.'

Yes, I do think if the circumstances weren't there that certain characters could beat others from higher on the list. There are inconsistencies in the tiering system, as the supposed Richter scale-like tiers are meant to have huge gaps between each other, yet Mace is an "8 bordering on a 9?" That's not possible.

They were never intended to be used in forum discussions like these, as Ant admitted when he was first pitching these ideas years ago. But now we try and rationalise all events we see around them. Stupid.

The only problem is people have a vested interest in keeping the system in place. Now the idea that you can't have a 8 bordering on 9 in a Richter Scale doesn't make sense. There have been earthquakes rated 8.9 on a Richter Scale which could be considered a 8 bordering on 9 pretty easily.

But that difference is still supposed to be huge. Unless we're meant to take that statement as; the gap between 8.0 - 9.0 is massive? In that case people like Dooku could very well contend with Sidious, which is all I care about at the end of the day.

I took it as anyone anywhere in the 8.0-9 area can't touch anyone in the tier above.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
But that difference is still supposed to be huge. Unless we're meant to take that statement as; the gap between 8.0 - 9.0 is massive? In that case people like Dooku could very well contend with Sidious, which is all I care about at the end of the day.

I took it as anyone anywhere in the 8.0-9 area can't touch anyone in the tier above.

Right because its a matter of gradation. A 9.0>>8.0 But a 9.0~>8.9

Using this logic saying the different of one number is massive is a true statement while actually not being very useful. Because a 6.7.5 might actually be able to give a 7 a decent fight when a plain 6 would have been stomped.

That sounds good to me

There is another thing though... Gillard says the mental fight is equally important as the moves, and I don't think the tiers account for 'emotions.' He seems pretty set on the idea that Kenobi was able to stonewall Anakin whilst holding back, which implies that Anakin (whilst physically, skill-wise and power-wise is a tier 9) is hindered all the time by his mental ****ery. So basically, the tiers are power/skill standings, with no regard for the other thing that's just as important. I find the idea that the mental side isn't accounted for in these levels, more plausible than the converse because of one line in the RotS novel that says "Obi-Wan let go," ergo he's a tier 9. So Anakin's basically an eight, and you could apply this line of thinking to others.

Edit: This doesn't only apply to Anakin on Mustafar or in general btw, since we know he's fragile. Gillard said that the mental fight is what costs Dooku on the Invisible Hand.

Ultimately Mace can stalemate either player of team 1 at least long enough for Sidious to finish the other one.