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Following on from a religious discussion in the other forum, should a child's family be allowed to pick their religion for them, or should it be up to the establishment?

In London the establishment will tear your family apart simply for not belonging to the strict denomination of Islam and take your kid into care over it. The establishment ceased to be impartial about religion at the time of this precedent setting case:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/british-agency-ignores-familys-wishes-pushes-5-year-old-christian-into-two

Neither really. I think kids should be introduced to all of the major religious viewpoints and pick the ones that make most sense to them. But, tbh, most families would be biased towards their own religion and force that down the kid's throat anyways, so...

I got a lot out of how my family raised me and will be doing the same when I have kids. I'll stick to the family on this one.

I didn't force my Mormon-ness on my step-kids.

Nor do I think it's appropriate.


When kids ask, you explain your beliefs.

Bring them to Mosque, Synagogue, Temple, Church, whatever.

Be wary of people trying to indoctrinate your children.

And watch out for Catholic Priests that want alone time with your children.

neither, lol.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I got a lot out of how my family raised me and will be doing the same when I have kids. I'll stick to the family on this one.
Please explain how "neither" isn't the right answer here, iyo.

Originally posted by MythLord
Neither really. I think kids should be introduced to all of the major religious viewpoints
Is there a reason you wouldn't just introduce them to contemporary stories instead?

Depends on what you mean by 'child'. I wouldn't waste my time presenting the cases for each religion in the world to a 3 year old.

A family obviously should. It's their job to teach them right from wrong till they get older and then decide for themselves.

An establishment definitely shouldn't. I don't think a family should either, but I can't see how it could be prevented with a family.

Originally posted by Surtur
An establishment definitely shouldn't. I don't think a family should either, but I can't see how it could be prevented with a family.

Agreed.

It only takes one generation in a family to reject the religion they were taught to be part of then subsequent generations would be less likely to be religious. Not that it's unheard of for a child to have religious beliefs after growing up in a secular family but it's more common for a child to chose secularism/atheism after growing up in a religious family than the other way round.

Originally posted by Surtur
An establishment definitely shouldn't. I don't think a family should either, but I can't see how it could be prevented with a family.

Whats wrong with the familty picking their religion? I'm not even saying that I neccesarily agree with the religion.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
Agreed.

It only takes one generation in a family to reject the religion they were taught to be part of then subsequent generations would be less likely to be religious. Not that it's unheard of for a child to have religious beliefs after growing up in a secular family but it's more common for a child to chose secularism/atheism after growing up in a religious family than the other way round.

Yeah, my family is weird. They paid for me and my brother to go to catholic school all the way up until we graduated from high school. Yet they are not super religious, they are the type who go to church once a year on Christmas Eve.

We were specifically taught by the school not to question anything about the religion though. Which seems like brainwashing. You'd like to think with every kid what happens is there comes a point in their life where they decide whether or not they truly believe in whatever religion they were raised on(if they were raised on one), but I don't think that point comes for everyone.

I'm fine with the answers of anyone here as long as they aren't asking for state involvement.

That means either the state picking a child's religion, or the state telling parents they aren't allowed to raise their children religiously. If you are one of those people **** you. We have a separation of church and state for a reason.

Originally posted by Deadline
Whats wrong with the familty picking their religion? I'm not even saying that I neccesarily agree with the religion.

I won't say this is always bad. I think it depends on the people and kid. It depends on how hard they are on the kid, it depends on how the kids teachers are with him, it depends on the kids own personality too.

I think sometimes choice is taken away whether they realize it or not.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm fine with the answers of anyone here as long as they aren't asking for state involvement.

That means either the state picking a child's religion, or the state telling parents they aren't allowed to raise their children religiously. If you are one of those people **** you. We have a separation of church and state for a reason.

Yeah state involvement would be wrong and it wouldn't solve anything anyways.

Originally posted by Surtur
I won't say this is always bad. I think it depends on the people and kid. It depends on how hard they are on the kid, it depends on how the kids teachers are with him, it depends on the kids own personality too.

I think sometimes choice is taken away whether they realize it or not.

Yea I think we agree. I guess the point I'm trying to make is ultimately it's family who should teach children right from wrong not the state, you just hope that the parents aren't maniacs.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah, my family is weird. They paid for me and my brother to go to catholic school all the way up until we graduated from high school. Yet they are not super religious, they are the type who go to church once a year on Christmas Eve.

We were specifically taught by the school not to question anything about the religion though. Which seems like brainwashing. You'd like to think with every kid what happens is there comes a point in their life where they decide whether or not they truly believe in whatever religion they were raised on(if they were raised on one), but I don't think that point comes for everyone.

That is quite unusual circumstances. Denominational schools are still quite big here but I'm not really sure how impactful they are as I have a lot of friends who went to Catholic schools but we've never really spoke at any length to determine how different our experiences and education were. It's more an issue in Northern Ireland where sectarianism is still a massive problem that I think schools separated by denomination feed into.

If it's either/or of the two, I'd take family over establishment (I'm assuming this means government?).

Religion is a lot like sport teams. It's thrust on you as a child before you really know anything; usually by a family member(s) and you either go along, reject it or reject it in time.

For me personally, we don't push religion on our kids and we don't really force them away from it either. My issue is that a child really isn't ready to understand what they're being told on something that can be so influential on life, I'd prefer they start dabbling into religion in their late teen, preferably 20's.

We're not religious ourselves though. A few years back when my daughter was 12 or so she showed interest in Christianity, bought a cross, was watching YT vids and that sort of annoyed me because I think she was doing it due to one of her friends, to fit in. I told her to stay away from the YT talking heads due to the high level of nonsense being pushed and said there's nothing inherently wrong with being a Christian, just don't do it for the wrong reasons and to have some understanding first. I then explained to her the basic tenets of Christianity myself and pointed her to Stephen Prothero's "Religious Literacy" as a start. She didn't want to read it though and the Christianity phase seems to be over.

Only Jordan Peterson should be allowed to pick a childs religion.

Lolz.

You know what happens if you take a loose parenting approach under some Russeauian nonsense that imposing restrictions or moral standards on children "prevents their inner beauty from flowering out"? The child is undisciplined. Socialization has to be forced on people at a young age to an extent. It's an ugly thing to say, but it's a basic truth of the world we live in.

Also, as far as family vs state, I'm much more likely to believe that a child's parents, with a familial bond and presumably a very personal and deep sentiment of love, will have much more motivation to act in what way they believe is best for the child, as opposed to the state which sees the child as just another unit in society.

Edit.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Doing 3 dumb things doesn't mean we should throw in a 4th dumb thing. The proper response is to correct the 3 dumb things. If there are things parents shouldn't choose for their kids, then we should stop choosing those things. Taking every opportunity we have to foster critical thinking in the next generation is a good thing broski. dadudemon has the right idea. Education is key.

That isn't true though. They're both indoctrination, and the parents could have ****ed up views.

Religion doesn't matter. It's the community that's important.


A frienemy went off about how everyone thinks the Amish are so benign, yet they socially pressure their kids to choose between living outside, at the expense of their social ties, or coming home.

I wanted to ask him "So how many Conservative cousins did you unfriend today?"

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You know what happens if you take a loose parenting approach under some Russeauian nonsense that imposing restrictions or moral standards on children "prevents their inner beauty from flowering out"? The child is undisciplined. Socialization has to be forced on people at a young age to an extent. It's an ugly thing to say, but it's a basic truth of the world we live in.

Also, as far as family vs state, I'm much more likely to believe that a child's parents, with a familial bond and presumably a very personal and deep sentiment of love, will have much more motivation to act in what way they believe is best for the child, as opposed to the state which sees the child as just another unit in society.
I hear you, but you can discipline your kids without forcing them into a given religion. Educating the child and letting them decide is a far cry from the bleak world of wild moral indescretion you've hinted at, intentionally or not.

Not necessarily true. Even ignoring the many awful parents out there, the state does have a vested interest in productive, well-behaved citizens. Regardless, the interaction between the family and state is so utterly intertwined, we'd be lying if we pretended the family's values aren't largely a result of the society they live in.

The state already socializes your child because it socialized you.

Originally posted by StyleTime
You can discipline your kids without forcing them into a given religion. Educating the child and letting them decide is a far cry from the bleak world of wild moral indescretion you've hinted at, intentionally or not.

Nor necessarily true. Even ignoring the many awful parents out there, the state does have a vested interest in productive, well-behaved citizens. Regardless, the interaction between the family and state is so utterly intertwined, we'd be lying if we pretended the family's value aren't mostly a result of the society they live in.

The state already socializes your child because it also socialized you.

Honestly dude, I disagree.

Kids are like puppies. The fact is, they NEED an authoritative authority.

They can change their religion, or make other life altering decisions, when they're old enough to understand what that means.

Originally posted by cdtm
Religion doesn't matter. It's the community that's important.
Sometimes, but they aren't always mutually exclusive.
Originally posted by cdtm
Honestly dude, I disagree.

Kids are like puppies. The fact is, they NEED an authoritative authority.

They can change their religion, or make other life altering decisions, when they're old enough to understand what that means.
I'm not saying make them pick a religion at age 3 lol. There doesn't even need to a be official age.

It's more about creating a social environment that encourages learning, so they arrive at their own spiritual conclusions. Again, you can discipline and impart moral values without forcing them into a religion. This isn't the same as some kind of totally hands off, do whatever you want parenting.

You're teaching chi manipulation and letting them decide whether to fight like Danny Rand or Shang Chi. biscuits

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Also, as far as family vs state, I'm much more likely to believe that a child's parents, with a familial bond and presumably a very personal and deep sentiment of love, will have much more motivation to act in what way they believe is best for the child, as opposed to the state which sees the child as just another unit in society.

Like the 10-month-old boy who suffered and died because his parents denied him medical treatment for religious reasons? Or the 7-year-old boy who was tortured and killed by his parents for not learning Bible verses? Or the 10-year-old boy who was tortured and killed by his religious parents to make him straight? Their religion-distorted sense of what is best for their children is completely immoral.

Originally posted by cdtm
Honestly dude, I disagree.

Kids are like puppies. The fact is, they NEED an authoritative authority.

They can change their religion, or make other life altering decisions, when they're old enough to understand what that means.

No, children should only adopt a religion when they're old enough to understand what it means.

Lol. if you aren't saying "neither" as an answer, you should avoid having kids.

Which would mean exposing them to stories as stories lol.

Originally posted by cdtm
Religion doesn't matter. It's the community that's important.
"
And there's plenty of communities that exist without the pitfalls of religion. Try again.

The only reason parents tell their children that morally inferior stories might be true is because they won't more people to reasssure them their escapist fantasies are real.

There is no reason whatesoever to introduce a child to religion as opposed to:
-> Dreamwork films
-> the mcu
-> star wars
-> superman comics
-> petscop
-> interface
-> EOE
-> FMA 2003
-> Ceremony
-> Dr Suess
-> vintage pixar
-> studio ghibli
-> b:tas
-> laika films
-> eternal sunshine of the spotless mind



The only reason you would choose the bible over these is because you want the escapist shit mentioned in the bible to be true. The bible supports escapism, and the blind following of authority. Any "Positive" present in the bible can be dfound anywhere else ina more concise compelling manner.

Children exposed to one archaic fantasy that claims it's the authrotiative source of morality, are gonna be worse off then children exposed to a wide set of stories with different perspectives on the world.

It's beyond insane that people would actually dispute this.

We can't really regulate what parents are gonna tell their kids. Parents should introduce kids to a wide variety of stories, viewpoints and opinions at a certain age and then the child eventually picks their own route. The problem here is that many parents won't follow along with that train of thought and many would try to, directly or indirectly, influence their kids.
I do think threatening a 3-7 year olds with Hell is a form of child abuse, tho.