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This era had alot of people slamming Disney for having too much political correctness. Many see that the company really lost it and is taking it too far. Recently, It looks like alot of people have been unhappy with the way Disney has been making their live action or animated movies.

No one here will care until it affects Marvel.

I'm just reminded of that scene from Force Awakens where Rey and Finn are running from some villain and he grabs her hand while running and she slaps it away and says she doesn't need his help. Lol.

It's a little thing, but it wasn't really needed and it really sets the tone for what is to come.

Maybe Disney is trying to make up for the fact that so many animators hid dicks and other things in their movies lol.

Yeah. They used to do that a lot back in the day...a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT!

I like pretty, sassy girls in leading roles.

Originally posted by robotflug
This era had alot of people slamming Disney for having too much political correctness. Many see that the company really lost it and is taking it too far. Recently, It looks like alot of people have been unhappy with the way Disney has been making their live action or animated movies. Your post is worthless garbage without any examples of what you're talking about my friend.

IMO, this still seems like backlash because Star Wars and Marvel films dare to have strong female leads and that hurts sensitive fragile men. eg Just wait until Captain Marvel comes out, the MRA tears will flow.

Originally posted by Robtard
IMO, this still seems like backlash because Star Wars and Marvel films dare to have strong female leads and that hurts sensitive fragile men. eg Just wait until Captain Marvel comes out, the MRA tears will flow.

Nah, people disliked Rey mostly cuz she's a Mary Sue. That's the opposite of being a strong female character.

The Wonder Woman movie didn't get the same backlash.

EDIT: Oh and most of the backlash to Rey came after the movie was released and it had to do with her character not her genitals.

A Mary Sue is a female character than can perform above what is expected. So it's not really the opposite of a strong female character.

Wonder Woman is just that, she's expected to be the best so to speak in a film about her. Star Wars is historically male-centered. Even when Leia rescued Han it was botched and she needed Luke to come and save the day.

Oh no, it was about her genitalia, my son.

Originally posted by Robtard
A Mary Sue is a female character than can perform above what is expected. So it's not really the opposite of a strong female character.

Wonder Woman is just that, she's expected to be the best so to speak in a film about her. Star Wars is historically male-centered. Even when Leia rescued Han it was botched and she needed Luke to come and save the day.

Oh no, it was about her genitalia, my son.

A lot of the complaints about her character came *after* the movie came out. 90% of those had nothing to do with her vagina.

She's also rather pretty/attractive, which was specially hilarious when the MRAs and Incels started attacking her with the lowest hanging fruit of "she's fat!" in ep8.

No, she's not fat, she's just not built like a 14yo twig boy, which seems to be the staple of attractiveness to these types of sub-men.

Originally posted by Robtard
She's also rather pretty/attractive, which was specially hilarious when the MRAs and Incels started attacking her with the lowest hanging fruit of "she's fat!" in ep8.

No, she's not fat, she's just not built like a 14yo twig boy, which seems to be the staple of attractiveness to these types of sub-men. She's an absolute babe. Good post!

Originally posted by Robtard
Even when Leia rescued Han it was botched and she needed Luke to come and save the day.

Look at you, being racist. Lando, the intelligent leader and black man, was also there to rescue Han. But you conveniently forgot about the black man who was also there to rescue Han. You also forgot that all "male" figures in this operation were weak and captured: Chewie, Han, Lando, and both male-gendered droids.

You also failed to mention that Leia also murdered the one that enslaved her. With her bare-hands and a chain. And this was all part of the plan to rescue Han. In your quest to one-up Surtur and virtue signal about how woke you are, you ended up being sexist and racist, in two short sentences.

In Obi Wan Kenobi's wise words:

https://i.imgur.com/CpYeBFD.gif

Originally posted by Robtard
She's also rather pretty/attractive, which was specially hilarious when the MRAs and Incels started attacking her with the lowest hanging fruit of "she's fat!" in ep8.

Do you have any evidence of this?

I remember posting that she gained weight and that they used filming from both Ep 7 and Ep 8 because you can see the thinner "Jakku" version of her in some scenes in Ep 8.

And, no, she wasn't fat. I never said that. Weight gain does not always equal "fat."

Originally posted by Putinbot1
She's an absolute babe. Good post!

She's not a "babe". She's not fat or ugly, but not particularly attractive either. And she has a small chest. Let's be real here if we're gonna discuss her looks.

Originally posted by Surtur
She's not a "babe". She's not fat or ugly, but not particularly attractive either. And she has a small chest. Let's be real here if we're gonna discuss her looks. She's a leading lady in a blockbuster, clearly a babe.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
She's a leading lady in a blockbuster, clearly a babe.

No that's not how that works, but okay.

What does being a leading lady have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Silent Master
What does being a leading lady have to do with anything? it means she's attractive enough to build a multi billion pound franchise around for three films.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
it means she's attractive enough to build a multi billion pound franchise around for three films.

Doesn't make her a babe.

Originally posted by Surtur
Doesn't make her a babe. means she's very attractive indeed. I don't see Hollywood building films around ugly people, it's like the Bree Larsen isn't hot rubbish incels spout.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
it means she's attractive enough to build a multi billion pound franchise around for three films.

Do you really think her looks is the reason Star Wars made billions of dollars?

Originally posted by Putinbot1
means she's very attractive indeed. I don't see Hollywood building films around ugly people, it's like the Bree Larsen isn't hot rubbish incels spout.

So I better not be able to find Hollywood building movies or tv shows around a guy like Steve Buscemi, right? Cuz that f*cker isn't good looking at all.

Oh and if you're gonna be a weasel and go "I just meant women". I'm not gonna find movies built around Melissa McCarthy...correctamundo?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Do you really think her looks is the reason Star Wars made billions of dollars? I don't think they'd pick anyone unattractive to build a franchise around. Girls would not want to be her, boys would not put her poster on the wall to tap over.

Originally posted by Surtur
So I better not be able to find Hollywood building movies or tv shows around a guy like Steve Buscemi, right? Cuz that f*cker isn't good looking at all.

Oh and if you're gonna be a weasel and go "I just meant women". I'm not gonna find movies built around Melissa McCarthy...correctamundo? are melissa McCarthy films successful, does she play heroines in space opera's? I don't even know who she is, what's wrong with her?

Originally posted by Putinbot1
are melissa McCarthy films successful, does she play heroines in space opera's? I don't even know who she is, what's wrong with her?

So you're gonna feign ignorance, gotcha. Moving on.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
I don't think they'd pick anyone unattractive to build a franchise around. Girls would not want to be her, boys would not put her poster on the wall to tap over.

There is a rather large difference between unattractive and absolute babe.

Originally posted by Surtur
So you're gonna feign ignorance, gotcha. Moving on. Not at all, what is Melissa McCarthy.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Not at all, what is Melissa McCarthy.

https://i.imgur.com/VvXPcdI.jpg

She was one of the folk they tried to build the new Ghostbusters franchise around too. And she had her own sitcom for 6-7 years.

Originally posted by Silent Master
There is a rather large difference between unattractive and absolute babe. she's a babe. Let's all post girlfriends and exs and compare them to her. I've been out with people others say are babies and she compares favourably. She's an A list leading lady.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
she's a babe. Let's all post girlfriends and exs and compare them to her. I've been out with people others say are babies and she compares favourably. She's an A list leading lady.

Damn you date babies? Sick f*ck.

Originally posted by Surtur
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/melissa-mccarthy.jpg

She was one of the folk they tried to build the new Ghostbusters franchise around too. And she had her own sitcom for 6-7 years. who is this woman, I've never seen her films. She looks a bit like Roseanne Barr, does she do comedy's where her weight is the joke and she has a pretty friend?

Originally posted by Putinbot1
who is this woman, I've never seen her films. She looks a bit like Roseanne Barr, does she do comedy's where her weight is the joke and she has a pretty friend?

I told you: she starred in the horrid all female Ghostbusters. They intended to build a franchise around it(it bombed)

She starred in his own sitcom for 6-7 years, I can't say what much of the plot is about, but it's two fat people who get married.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
she's a babe. Let's all post girlfriends and exs and compare them to her. I've been out with people others say are babies and she compares favourably. She's an A list leading lady.

She is attractive, but nothing special. you can go to any random club or mall and see plenty of women that are just as good if not better looking.

Originally posted by Surtur
I told you: she starred in the horrid all female Ghostbusters. They intended to build a franchise around it(it bombed)

She starred in his own sitcom for 6-7 years, I can't say what much of the plot is about, but it's two fat people who get married. never watched the female Ghostbusters, never heard of her. It bombed... I would say if they'd used babes it might have been a success.

Originally posted by Silent Master
She is attractive, but nothing special. you can go to any random club or mall and see plenty of women that are just as good if not better looking. debatable.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
debatable.

The very fact that it's debatable kind of proves my point.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The very fact that it's debatable kind of proves my point. Far from it. I would debate you probably can't find that many if any, you would argue you can. Because its subjective to your criteria which I suspect are similar to Rob suggested, we will disagree.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Far from it. I would debate you probably can't find that many if any, you would argue you can. Because its subjective to your criteria which I suspect are similar to Rob suggested, we will disagree.

I notice that you tend to fall back on insults when you've lost.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm just reminded of that scene from Force Awakens where Rey and Finn are running from some villain and he grabs her hand while running and she slaps it away and says she doesn't need his help. Lol.

It's a little thing, but it wasn't really needed and it really sets the tone for what is to come.
Eh, I don't really see that as political correctness. I actually think it sets an appropriate tone of her not really knowing or trusting Finn. Plus if it was really supposed to deliver a cringe tone, he wouldn't save her by grabbing her hand a few seconds later.

And that kinda gets delivered after they shoot down the fighters and actually become friends.


Nah if you want PC shit, I was literally cringing in the theater during the Poe Holdo scene in episode 8 half expecting Holdo to say the word "mansplaining."

Originally posted by Silent Master
I notice that you tend to fall back on insults when you've lost. where were you insulted? How can someone lose something subjective?

Oh, you're doing the time waster troll stuff.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
never watched the female Ghostbusters, never heard of her. It bombed... I would say if they'd used babes it might have been a success.

Nah the movie didn't fail cuz of the looks of the cast or even because they were female. It failed because it was just a bad script and they didn't do anything new.

The movie was supposed to be empowering and they make the one black woman just...the token black woman. Instead of making her a scientist or some shit she works for the subway. I guess we should be glad they didn't make her a janitor or a drug dealer.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh, I don't really see that as political correctness. I actually think it sets an appropriate tone of her not really knowing or trusting Finn. Plus if it was really supposed to deliver a cringe tone, he wouldn't save her by grabbing her hand a few seconds later.

And that kinda gets delivered after they shoot down the fighters and actually become friends.


Nah if you want PC shit, I was literally cringing in the theater during the Poe Holdo scene in episode 8 half expecting Holdo to say the word "mansplaining."

It's less PC and more just silly feminist bullshit. I'm surprised she didn't start singing "I am woman, here me roar" as she ran.

Originally posted by Surtur
Nah the movie didn't fail cuz of the looks of the cast or even because they were female. It failed because it was just a bad script and they didn't do anything new.

The movie was supposed to be empowering and they make the one black woman just...the token black woman. Instead of making her a scientist or some shit she works for the subway. I guess we should be glad they didn't make her a janitor or a drug dealer. I can't comment about this film as it didn't appeal, no babes on the posters so I didn't fancy watching it.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
where were you insulted? How can someone lose something subjective?

Oh, you're doing the time waster troll stuff.

You're being dishonest again.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
Far from it. I would debate you probably can't find that many if any, you would argue you can. Because its subjective to your criteria which I suspect are similar to Rob suggested, we will disagree.

Originally posted by Robtard
She's also rather pretty/attractive, which was specially hilarious when the MRAs and Incels started attacking her with the lowest hanging fruit of "she's fat!" in ep8.

No, she's not fat, she's just not built like a 14yo twig boy, which seems to be the staple of attractiveness to these types of sub-men.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You're being dishonest again. As our opinion varied, clearly you were judging her against another kind of female form, is it the type Rob suggested, or is Melissa McCarthy more your thing, help me out here.

Originally posted by Surtur
Motherf*cker get that shit right! It was called "The Secret World of Alex Mack". She is played by the younger sister from "10 Things I Hate About You". -3-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_Mack

Lol my bad.

Alex Mack was a good show tho.

Disney used to make some decent shows too.

I think they do it for media reasons.

The funny thing is, the average of people who watched this show DROPPED by a whole hell of a lot because republicans thought of it to be inappropriate for their children. X3

Eh not gonna comment on that since I'm not too familiar.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh not gonna comment on that since I'm not too familiar. Me neither, I just read about it two days ago.

They do crappy cartoons these days too. The 90s had great cartoons.

Originally posted by Surtur
They do crappy cartoons these days too. The 90s had great cartoons. the 80s had better

Originally posted by Putinbot1
the 80s had better

Nah, 90s had the best.

The Batman cartoon, the Superman cartoon. Batman Beyond. X-Men cartoon.

Ren and Stimpy. Rocko's Modern Life.

Originally posted by Surtur
Nah, 90s had the best.

The Batman cartoon, the Superman cartoon. Batman Beyond. X-Men cartoon.

Ren and Stimpy. Rocko's Modern Life. To be honest the 70s had battle of the planets we both lose.

although the 80s had dragon ball, fist of the north star, transformers, GI Joe, gundam wing etc.

The Roaring Twenties had Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, and Felix the Cat.

You both lose. :3

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
The Roaring Twenties had Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, and Felix the Cat.

You both lose. :3 all shite, now the 40s had bugs, daffy and co.

Originally posted by Putinbot1
all shite, now the 40s had bugs, daffy and co. If it weren't for them, you wouldn't have the wonderful cartoons you had in the 70's. :3

Originally posted by dadudemon
Look at you, being racist. Lando, the intelligent leader and black man, was also there to rescue Han. But you conveniently forgot about the black man who was also there to rescue Han. You also forgot that all "male" figures in this operation were weak and captured: Chewie, Han, Lando, and both male-gendered droids.

You also failed to mention that Leia also murdered the one that enslaved her. With her bare-hands and a chain. And this was all part of the plan to rescue Han. In your quest to one-up Surtur and virtue signal about how woke you are, you ended up being sexist and racist, in two short sentences.

In Obi Wan Kenobi's wise words:

https://i.imgur.com/CpYeBFD.gif



Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have any evidence of this?

I remember posting that she gained weight and that they used filming from both Ep 7 and Ep 8 because you can see the thinner "Jakku" version of her in some scenes in Ep 8.

And, no, she wasn't fat. I never said that. Weight gain does not always equal "fat."

You may find this hard to believe, but I don't center every post I make on you/your thoughts

Originally posted by Surtur
The Batman cartoon, the Superman cartoon. Batman Beyond. X-Men cartoon.

Ren and Stimpy.Gargoyles. Never forget Gargoyles.


Rocko's Modern Life. I loved that song, "Spring Cleaning."

--------------------------------------------------

@victreebelvictr (cuz for some reason I couldn't quote your post):

The 1930s had some great stuff, notably the Fleischer toons, especially the Betty Boop toons with Cab Calloway. Before there was Michael Jackson, before even James Brown, there was Cab.

When I was a wee lad, I also liked watching the Farmer Al Falfa toons. Some of those are now over a century old and even more fascinating to watch.

Originally posted by Robtard
You may find this hard to believe, but I don't center every post I make on you/your thoughts


Yes but I notice you didn't post a link about your claim and since you and I specifically interacted on this topic. Also, I consumed quite a few anti-Ep 8 YouTube videos and didn't run across what you were talking about.

I can only logically and reasonably assume you were specifically talking about me - hardly pretentious on my part.

Originally posted by Mindship
Gargoyles. Never forget Gargoyles.

I loved that song, "Spring Cleaning."

--------------------------------------------------

@victreebelvictr (cuz for some reason I couldn't quote your post):

The 1930s had some great stuff, notably the Fleischer toons, especially the Betty Boop toons with Cab Calloway. Before there was Michael Jackson, before even James Brown, there was Cab.

When I was a wee lad, I also liked watching the Farmer Al Falfa toons. Some of those are now over a century old and even more fascinating to watch.

Use quick quote.

Edit - I'll see if I can find my post about this.

Originally posted by Mindship
Gargoyles. Never forget Gargoyles.

I loved that song, "Spring Cleaning."

--------------------------------------------------

@victreebelvictr (cuz for some reason I couldn't quote your post):

The 1930s had some great stuff, notably the Fleischer toons, especially the Betty Boop toons with Cab Calloway. Before there was Michael Jackson, before even James Brown, there was Cab.

When I was a wee lad, I also liked watching the Farmer Al Falfa toons. Some of those are now over a century old and even more fascinating to watch.

I loved Gargoyles.

Let's not forget about the really old Popeye cartoons that played prior to movies, that is a walk back into history. If you like looking back at something interesting look up old recipes or an old recipe book then look at historical events during that time and see if you can explain why they used what for cooking.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Use quick quote.

Edit - I'll see if I can find my post about this. Thnx.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I loved Gargoyles.
Let's not forget about the really old Popeye cartoons ...Gargoyles had great writing, great character development, a great story line (at least until they went off on that Avalon thing, imo).
Fleischer Popeye mumbling to himself always got a chuckle out of me.

Originally posted by snowdragon
If you like looking back at something interesting look up old recipes or an old recipe book then look at historical events during that time and see if you can explain why they used what for cooking. I imagine we were quite clever with what we had to work with. IIRC, Granny of Beverly Hillbillies made some great possum.

Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!

Disney has a bunch of perverts and pedos working for them. They are one to talk.

Originally posted by MythLord
Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!

BING

Originally posted by MythLord
Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!

Except this all falls apart when people call, almost exclusively, male characters "Mary Sue."

In fact, the first time I've seen Mary Sue used as a reference for a female character (outside of the original reference) was for Rey in Star Wars.


There's plenty of people that broke down the reasons why Rey is a Mary Sue SJW Disney waaaaaynk.

Originally posted by MythLord
Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!

Nah, male characters can be Mary Sue's too. Peter Petrelli from Heroes is one.

Wonder Woman wasn't called a mary sue. Nor were the strong independent black women from Black Panther.

Originally posted by MythLord
Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!
More like people compare Rey to Anakin and Luke.

Anakin is the Chosen One, the point is that he's born with a greater potential than anyone else. Yet he trains for a decade, and even then he gets his ass handed to him in Attack of the Clones. It takes him till the third movie in his trilogy to actually defeat one of the main villains in a duel (ie. Dooku). His power feels earned. Plus he actually has a character. His fear of losing his loved ones plagues him throughout his entire trilogy and culminates in his fall to the Dark Side. He starts off idolizing the Jedi, then struggles with the reality of what they are and becomes cynical about them, then somewhat matures and readjusts to admiration, then has his faith in them completely destroyed.

Luke has a crazy wild potential too, yet the farthest he gets in the first movie of his trilogy is deflecting shit from the training droid, and making that shot that takes down the death star. In the second movie of his trilogy he has to undergo some serious training on Dagobah, is shown struggling, and at the end of his second movie he gets thrashed by Vader. Then in the third movie he finally earns his victory over Vader. He also has his own character arc, he starts off in the first movie as a farmboy craving adventure n shit, and he has the feel throughout the movie as if he's someone whose taken their first steps into a larger world, and at the end of it learns to trust the Force in kinda a pivotal moment where he has something more tempting to rely on. In the second movie of his trilogy he deals with a lot of shit, training with Yoda, failing in a lot of instances to accept his wisdom, has not just naivete but immaturity to deal with, and at the end of the movie he gets ****ed up by the realization that Darth Vader is his father. Then we get to the third movie in his trilogy and he's a lot more seasoned and wise, self-controlled, and he has to deal with facing Vader and trying to redeem him and pushing back against his own temptations towards the dark side.

With Rey, she starts off, knows immediately how to fix the Millennium Falcon when Han Solo didn't. Without any training she rebukes Kylo and peers into his mind, almost instantly figures out how to mind **** people, then at the end of her very first movie humiliates the main antagonist in a fight. Then in the second movie she does some training, and is suddenly portrayed as Kylo's rough equal... the grandson of Darth Vader who trained under Luke for far longer and then Snoke... in the second movie. Her power just doesn't feel remotely as earned as the other two protagonists.

And then there's her character. She vaguely deals with her parents and her abandonment issues for two movies and it doesn't really lead anywhere (contrast that with Anakin leaving his mom in episode 1, then his dreams about her and her dying in episode 2, or to Luke's familial shit with Darth Vader). She, unlike Luke is stepping into a larger world but doesn't really seem phased in the same way. She like Luke, has her trust in the Force moment at the end of her first movie, only it's while she's dueling someone with a lightsaber where the Force is the obvious and only answer, whereas Luke was seriously tempted to rely on the targeting computer. She trains with Luke, learns some things, but is more put in her place by him on her understanding of what the force is or how to use it, not so much on her character in which she is portrayed as right. And then she has her Luke-Vader moment where she tries to redeem Kylo, which isn't as investing as Luke's relationship with his own father.

Literally every part of her character arc worth mentioning is a pale copy of Luke's character arc without as many emotional stakes or character growth that isn't executed as well. Her relationship with Kylo is the most interesting thing about her in that regard, and that's partly due to the fact that for all the shit he gets Kylo Ren is a genuinely interesting character with more of a character arc and more character than Rey has.

The issue with not with a strong whamen, it's with the writing and execution of Rey as a character and the fact that her power doesn't feel earned and her character doesn't have any serious stakes. There are plenty of strong female Star Wars characters that are actually fan favorites, ie. Leia, Ahsoka, or if we want to get into the EU people like Mara Jade, Satele Shan was appreciated as all **** when the SWTOR trailers came out but the hype for her kinda died out when the game itself made her virtually irrelevant.

Originally posted by MythLord
Female character: OP, intelligent, independant, can stand up for herself, can get d!ck, she just don't want it.
She's a fvcking Mary Sue! POLITICAL CORRRRECTNESS! My kids and my Johnson are insulted!

Male character: OP, intelligent, independant, stands up for himself, gets all the pussie.
WOW... What a man! Respect him! If I were a queer man, my Johnson would rise for him. But lo, I am not for I am just too masculine!

The fact that you have to leave out context in order to make your argument is proof that you know that your argument doesn't hold up.

people wouldn't slam disney as much if they could make well written films.

Irrelevant of intentions, Po saving a fleet from destruction and then getting demoted from saving the fleet from certain doom is god awful writing. To point this out isn't closet sexism, it's being able to pay attention.

Yeah, Holdo just made bad f*cking choices.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
people wouldn't slam disney as much if they could make well written films.

Irrelevant of intentions, Po saving a fleet from destruction and then getting demoted from saving the fleet from certain doom is god awful writing. To point this out isn't closet sexism, it's being able to pay attention.

It's kind of amusing that George Lucas was able to write better then Disney.

Originally posted by cdtm
It's kind of amusing that George Lucas was able to write better then Disney.
George Lucas's story had set ups with clear, gradual, and typically well placed payoffs. Additionally, his world building was logical and internally consistent with sequels clearly and logically building off prior stories.

TFA's premise literally makes no sense in relation to what happened in ROTJ and requires the viewer to fill in the gap. It has the characters from the ot completely opposite of where they had been in the ot and it never shows how or why they reverted.

Why did Han go from letting himself get vested in other people to disattaching himself from those same people?

"who cares? it's the solo from anh! hurr durr nolstalgia points!"

Why did no one pull up when the empire destroyed a solar system despite their being huge backlash when the empire destroyed a planet?

"who cares? the republic's a rebellion again!" hurr durr nolstagalia!"

Why the **** did the rebel aliance send a bigger fleet to fight the fo than the republic which, per what ha sbeen established in rotj. is the dominant force of the galaxy?

"who cares? look at how bad these odds are! hurr durr nolstalgia!"

PT isn't a masterpiece, but it's writing is miles above what ever the **** abrams and johnson were doing.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
More like people compare Rey to Anakin and Luke.

Anakin is the Chosen One, the point is that he's born with a greater potential than anyone else. Yet he trains for a decade, and even then he gets his ass handed to him in Attack of the Clones. It takes him till the third movie in his trilogy to actually defeat one of the main villains in a duel (ie. Dooku). His power feels earned. Plus he actually has a character. His fear of losing his loved ones plagues him throughout his entire trilogy and culminates in his fall to the Dark Side. He starts off idolizing the Jedi, then struggles with the reality of what they are and becomes cynical about them, then somewhat matures and readjusts to admiration, then has his faith in them completely destroyed.

Luke has a crazy wild potential too, yet the farthest he gets in the first movie of his trilogy is deflecting shit from the training droid, and making that shot that takes down the death star. In the second movie of his trilogy he has to undergo some serious training on Dagobah, is shown struggling, and at the end of his second movie he gets thrashed by Vader. Then in the third movie he finally earns his victory over Vader. He also has his own character arc, he starts off in the first movie as a farmboy craving adventure n shit, and he has the feel throughout the movie as if he's someone whose taken their first steps into a larger world, and at the end of it learns to trust the Force in kinda a pivotal moment where he has something more tempting to rely on. In the second movie of his trilogy he deals with a lot of shit, training with Yoda, failing in a lot of instances to accept his wisdom, has not just naivete but immaturity to deal with, and at the end of the movie he gets ****ed up by the realization that Darth Vader is his father. Then we get to the third movie in his trilogy and he's a lot more seasoned and wise, self-controlled, and he has to deal with facing Vader and trying to redeem him and pushing back against his own temptations towards the dark side.

With Rey, she starts off, knows immediately how to fix the Millennium Falcon when Han Solo didn't. Without any training she rebukes Kylo and peers into his mind, almost instantly figures out how to mind **** people, then at the end of her very first movie humiliates the main antagonist in a fight. Then in the second movie she does some training, and is suddenly portrayed as Kylo's rough equal... the grandson of Darth Vader who trained under Luke for far longer and then Snoke... in the second movie. Her power just doesn't feel remotely as earned as the other two protagonists.

And then there's her character. She vaguely deals with her parents and her abandonment issues for two movies and it doesn't really lead anywhere (contrast that with Anakin leaving his mom in episode 1, then his dreams about her and her dying in episode 2, or to Luke's familial shit with Darth Vader). She, unlike Luke is stepping into a larger world but doesn't really seem phased in the same way. She like Luke, has her trust in the Force moment at the end of her first movie, only it's while she's dueling someone with a lightsaber where the Force is the obvious and only answer, whereas Luke was seriously tempted to rely on the targeting computer. She trains with Luke, learns some things, but is more put in her place by him on her understanding of what the force is or how to use it, not so much on her character in which she is portrayed as right. And then she has her Luke-Vader moment where she tries to redeem Kylo, which isn't as investing as Luke's relationship with his own father.

Literally every part of her character arc worth mentioning is a pale copy of Luke's character arc without as many emotional stakes or character growth that isn't executed as well. Her relationship with Kylo is the most interesting thing about her in that regard, and that's partly due to the fact that for all the shit he gets Kylo Ren is a genuinely interesting character with more of a character arc and more character than Rey has.

The issue with not with a strong whamen, it's with the writing and execution of Rey as a character and the fact that her power doesn't feel earned and her character doesn't have any serious stakes. There are plenty of strong female Star Wars characters that are actually fan favorites, ie. Leia, Ahsoka, or if we want to get into the EU people like Mara Jade, Satele Shan was appreciated as all **** when the SWTOR trailers came out but the hype for her kinda died out when the game itself made her virtually irrelevant.
Was my post specifically about Rey, tho? Not that I don't disagree with some of what you said(I do), but I don't really see the neccessity for this wall'o'text about Rey/Luke/Anakin to my general comment about the double standard in fiction.

Originally posted by Surtur
Wonder Woman wasn't called a mary sue. Nor were the strong independent black women from Black Panther.
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.

And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it.

Originally posted by MythLord
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.

And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it. pretty much.

Originally posted by MythLord
Was my post specifically about Rey, tho? Not that I don't disagree with some of what you said(I do), but I don't really see the neccessity for this wall'o'text about Rey/Luke/Anakin to my general comment about the double standard in fiction.

Is there? I rarely see the term used of discussion of the new SW films, and then it's nearly as often applied to male characters as it is female.

To be clear, I think the term Mary Sue in-of-itself is overused a lot, tbh. But what I mean is, there's a lot less political outcry when some dudebro is awesomesauce good at everything. Most people freak out when it's a woman, though.

Originally posted by MythLord
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.

And the Dora Milaje weren't called Mary Sues because they were side-characters. Had you made Okoye the main character of her own film, there'd be people raging across the globe about it.

I've never seen anyone call WW a Mary Sue TBH.

And there is a rather large difference between the two. WW is a film meant to stand on it's own whereas TFA was merely the first part of a trilogy, WW starts as a fully trained warrior whereas Rey starts off as a nobody, and WW makes mistakes throughout her film.

Originally posted by MythLord
I've seen people cry out that Wonder Woman was also a "Mary Sue" in her film. Truthfully, though, I don't see much of a difference between Diana and Rey in their respective films. The only big difference is Diana had decades of comic, TV series and cartoon appearances to her name and was obviously more recognizable.

Well you'd have more of a point about her starting off as crazy OP, except there's a contrast between the two universes. One as you said has shit established by the comics, and it's a superhero universe which has "power fantasy" embedded in it. The logic that someone like she or Superman starts off OP as shit is consistent with the worldbuilding.

As for Rey, in a universe in which a lot of this power is based on mastery, as a discipline you have to learn inside and out rather than some innate primal physical ability, where not only the fricken Chosen One had to train to learn how to use his power in any serious capacity but also his son, and his grandson who is set up as Rey's equal... it just feels cheap and unearned in that context.

On paper at first glance there's not as much difference between the two, but when you contextualize them in their respective universes... YEAH THERE IS.


Also as far as the characterization goes, Rey steps into a larger world and is relatively unphased for the most part aside from being somewhat naive. Diana steps into a larger unfamiliar world and... it's very clear she doesn't really know what the **** she's doing. She has this character arc of viewing all of humanity's evil as the exponent of some external force, realizing the grim truth that there is inherent evil in humanity, and having to work through that to realize they are worth saving anyways. Definitely more of a character arc than Rey had.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Rey steps into a larger world and is relatively unphased for the most part aside from being somewhat naive.
-_-

Why the **** does Rey's delusion regarding her parents' potential return not even get a passing mention when you spend paragraphs on ****ing power levels and aptitude? It's well established visually and through action that Rey is clinging to the memory of her parents.

It's perfectly fine to argue the resolution or about the other aspects of her characterization, but not mentioning what is easily the most important part of her characterization is missing the forest for the trees.


Wtf? No, that doesn't matter. A story has to establish and set up the shit it wants to use.

Off course wonder woman isn't a good movie...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-_-

Why the **** does Rey's delusion regarding her parents' potential return not even get a passing mention when you spend paragraphs on ****ing power levels and aptitude? It's well established visually and through action that Rey is clinging to the memory of her parents.

It's perfectly fine to argue the resolution or about the other aspects of her characterization, but not mentioning what is easily the most important part of her characterization is missing the forest for the trees.
I mentioned it in my previous post. That it was a storyline for her character that ultimately kinda lead nowhere. A layer to her character but not one dealt with in a remotely satisfying or emotionally investing way. If that's the most important part of her characterization then that just kinda further proves my point.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wtf? No, that doesn't matter. A story has to establish and set up the shit it wants to use.

Off course wonder woman isn't a good movie...
Well it matters to some extent. People are familiar enough with the superhero genre and the premise of characters like Wonder Woman and Superman and Thor etc. that them starting off OP in the context of that premise isn't a particularly offputting thing. That's part of their genre and everyone knows it.

For Star Wars though in which the importance of training is established and where we see what it takes to develop these kinds of abilities throughout both other trilogies, it actually cuts against the grain of the media it falls within in a very unsatisfying way.

I'm not gonna argue with you about whether or not Wonder Woman was a good movie because that wasn't really my point.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I mentioned it in my previous post. That it was a storyline for her character that ultimately kinda lead nowhere. A layer to her character but not one dealt with in a remotely satisfying or emotionally investing way. If that's the most important part of her characterization then that just kinda further proves my point.



Well it matters to some extent. People are familiar enough with the superhero genre and the premise of characters like Wonder Woman and Superman and Thor etc. that them starting off OP in the context of that premise isn't a particularly offputting thing. That's part of their genre and everyone knows it.

For Star Wars though in which the importance of training is established and where we see what it takes to develop these kinds of abilities throughout both other trilogies, it actually cuts against the grain of the media it falls within in a very unsatisfying way.

I'm not gonna argue with you about whether or not Wonder Woman was a good movie because that wasn't really my point. But Rey is a prodigy.

LOL!!!

People forget that TFA pretty much set Rey up as a survivor and mechanic. Someone who had to fight, scavange, repair and possibly even kill her way since she was five in the Jakku dessert.
That key element to her character they forget, but they foam at the mouth at a small detail like her saying "I don't need help!" at a man who tried to grab her hand...

This isn't addressed to you specifically DMB, I'll get to your post later

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well it matters to some extent. People are familiar enough with the superhero genre and the premise of characters like Wonder Woman and Superman and Thor etc. that them starting off OP in the context of that premise isn't a particularly offputting thing. That's part of their genre and everyone knows it.


No it doesn't lol. WHo cares what has been established in completely seperate stories. Stories have to work with what they, themselves establish, not what other, unrelated stories,have established.


It does tho? Rey runs away from her status as a hero, gets caught, and then beats Kylo embracingthe responsibility of a hero.

TFA is a badly written story overalla nd you can argue rey's character isn't well execution, but the elements of an arc are certainly present

Wonder Woman did set-up everything in regards to both her skill and power, did people even watch the movie?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Wonder Woman did set-up everything in regards to both her skill and power, did people even watch the movie?
I'm literally just working with what dmb recalled.

The reasons WW isn't a good film though come down to execution and hwo they completley threw away what they set up with a nonsensical resolution.

The first act is a slog of terrible line delivery and slow uncreative exposition regarding just about everything.

The second act builds up something interesting regarding Dianai's conception of evil but also crowds itself with a bunch of side characters who the film doesn't really do anythign with. The final act provides a compelling resolution to the aforementioned arc before completely wasting it with WW needing to beat one bad guy.