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Who wins?

i'd take apoc. bricks don't really mean much to apoc. it would be a challenge for apoc to put him down though. he'd likely need to get creative. still, apoc's fight to lose i think.

Gladiador wins. Stronger and faster.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Gladiador wins. Stronger and faster. Why do you think he is stronger?

Apocalypse dont really have great strengh feats.

Gladiator in the other hand have destroyed a planet and fought against some high heralds (like Thor and Jane).

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Apocalypse dont really have great strengh feats.

Gladiator in the other hand have destroyed a planet and fought against some high heralds (like Thor and Jane). Apocalypse fought Thor and nearly killed him.

Yeah, he's had some excellent striking power feats there. And those do count as strength feats.

He also has restrained the Hulk with one arm --- Hulk might not have been at his best, but it's not like Apoc was trying, either.

and had no problem restraining the hulk.... the same hulk who broke gladiator's face.

Ninja'd you, leo.

PS. TAS Apoc treated Glads as a nuisance, iirc... when he kidnapped Lilandra... and TAS Glads was a force to be reckoned with, seeing how he handled Juggernaut.

But of course it doesn't count here.

yeah, tbh, the more i think about it the more strongly i lean to apocalypse here. speed is an issue but once he closes it becomes apoc's to lose i think. i suppose freeze breath may work, but not sure how long that would hold apoc.

Glads had one of his best speed showings quite recently in that battle against Asgard story arc...

... and all it proved was that travel speed =/= combat speed (something we, battleboards guys, already knew about), as he got harmed by Heimdall of all people before he managed to beat him.

Also:

http://i.imgur.com/r040yM0.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
and had no problem restraining the hulk.... the same hulk who broke gladiator's face.

He restrain a weakened hulk for like 5 seconds.

His beat feat is the fight against the young Thor.

But i think that is too little to compete with Gladiator in this. Cant he win just striking Apocalypse head? His armor is very durable, but his body...Thor just destroyed him with the enchanted hammer (who only had spell against the armor, not against his body).

Apoc's visible "head" is technically a part of his armor, as shown in The Twelve arc, iirc...

Eh, Apocalypse is too impressive. :3

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Glads had one of his best speed showings quite recently in that battle against Asgard story arc.. that was one of the greatest speed showings ever. It's retarded how good it is. He had to react to the blink of heimdal to jump him from interstellar distance. It doesn't even make sense for him to even see the blink cause of hubble's constant.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that was one of the greatest speed showings ever. It's retarded how good it is. He had to react to the blink of heimdal to jump him from interstellar distance. It doesn't even make sense for him to even see the blink cause of hubble's constant.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
He restrain a weakened hulk for like 5 seconds.

His beat feat is the fight against the young Thor.

But i think that is too little to compete with Gladiator in this. Cant he win just striking Apocalypse head? His armor is very durable, but his body...Thor just destroyed him with the enchanted hammer (who only had spell against the armor, not against his body). Actually, no. Apocalypse has fought both Jane and Odinson, simultaneously:
https://imgur.com/a/Rs7YvdX

You can see him:
1). *****-slap Odinson
2). Restrain Jane by shapeshifting
3). Taking Jane's Mjolnir to the face
4). Taking the combined efforts of both to beat him in a great fight

Apocalypse.

I dont see this fight this way.

He barely fought against the 2 at same time. When they finally attacked him together, they kinda stomped him (they didnt had any damage after fight).

Gladiator also has good fights against Thor and Jane.

The only advantage i may give apocalypse is durability, because the fight against young Thor (before that, his armor never was hyped like that, even Loki was able to harm him with a regular blast). Feat wise, Gladiator has better ones.

About speed, Gladiator has "combat speed" feats too (not only travel), in a full capability fight, i dont see why dont use this, or even use his "galaxy blink" bull rush attack.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
He barely fought against the 2 at same time. When they first attacked him, he slapped Thor away, and then restrained Jane with his shapeshifting, until Thor came back and forced him to free her, then they attacked again and won . Losing to two Thors is not something that puts him below Gladiator. Looking above each of them individually, to that extreme, does.

This is consistent with his first encounter with Thor, where a backslap almost broke his spine:
https://imgur.com/a/sh3c0r8

And a headbutt was so strong, another one would have also broken his spine, forcing Thor to retreat:
https://imgur.com/a/ujR42Mw

In short - if Apocalypse gets his hands on him, he'd hold him down and have his way with him.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
About speed, Gladiator has "combat speed" feats too (not only travel), in a full capability fight, i dont see why dont use this, or even use his "galaxy blink" bull rush attack. Sure. The 'bullrush' is something that is feasible , but getting close to Apoc is dangerous, as he could just give him the Ikaris special:
https://imgur.com/a/a95xyQ4
Gladiator is more durable than Ikaris, but Apoc's level of strength combined with his shapeshifting would make this very applicable.
In terms of non-flying, Gladiator's greatest combat speed feat is the 'nanoseconds' perception - if you take statements at face value. That is, depending on how many 'nanoseconds' it refers to, highly relativistic to more. If we don't just take statements, and show how fast he actually moves without flying http://i.imgur.com/5MYSw50.jpg] it would be lower. Apocalypse's shapeshifting alone operates at a level where he can wrap itself around Cyclops' optic blast:
https://imgur.com/a/k62WSKz
Casually teleport out of its way
https://imgur.com/a/zWiK9cq
Which is specifically light speed:
https://imgur.com/a/SxZB6xi
Now, that doesn't make him lightspeed https://imgur.com/a/WkWsbTJ], but within the context where his shapeshifting allows him to overcome Quicksilver's speed:
https://imgur.com/a/nl4cDNn
while he was literally on his death bed so that's his very weakened level of speed:
https://imgur.com/a/WzKCzYg
It shows that Apoc is quite fast. Fast enough to not get blitz-beaten? Perhaps not. But a case can be made.
And as a bonus, here's him shapeshifting around Ikaris's vision-blast, also:
https://imgur.com/a/T2DHDX6

I haven't even gotten into the Apocalypse's vast abilities.
He can not only teleport himself, but he can also teleport other people, even from a distance. He has teleported Hulk right next to him while hundreds of miles away:
https://imgur.com/a/nDdXzqi
He has forcefully teleported High-Evolutionary:
https://imgur.com/a/WDDXkEq
...Apoc could simply teleport/shapeshift into him .
Not to mention Apocalypse can also make forcefields...

@philo, You do know that entire thing was a simulation Kubik was running right?

https://i.postimg.cc/tsTwbf49/sj.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/grGP5g82/whsf.jpg

Interesting how majority of the people going through time were right here.

She made them go through her vanishing point.

you are using a scan not knowing where it comes from.

Now I will show you what original Thor does to Apocalypse

https://i.postimg.cc/c6fr7kZ1/somg.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/hQn43ggD/fbtg.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dh3rJMZQ/xgs.jpg

Thor litteraly used his own blood enchantment with a kiss on his Axes to unlock it destroying Celestial tech:
https://i.postimg.cc/nX9rdnQm/le.jpg

Also let's very honest here Thor was drunk when Apocalypse first attacked him
https://i.postimg.cc/2qmY4Ydr/psl.jpg

Plus Styfe Cable's clone made Apoclypse cry and bleed by Apoclypse ran and took an L as always and Stryfe took over the Dark Riders because he made him run
https://i.postimg.cc/xNNhwpG6/pgo.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/c8c22HL



mean come on Apoclypse rarely wins any matches, He's a lower tier character. go ahead show me something good, how didn't you know generation battle was a simulation in her vanishing point? This wasn't even old just 2 years ago. lol

Apocalypse was vastly weakened when he fought Stryfe.

Why do you never have any idea what you're talking about?

Read some comics. Would you like me to give you a reading recommandations?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Thor litteraly used his own blood enchantment with a kiss on his Axes to unlock it destroying Celestial tech:
https://i.postimg.cc/nX9rdnQm/le.jpg What does this have to do with anything? Yes, Thor made an enchanted axe, with Loki's knowledge, that can pierce Celestial armor, and used it on Apocalypse. What exactly is your point?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Also let's very honest here Thor was drunk when Apocalypse first attacked him
https://i.postimg.cc/2qmY4Ydr/psl.jpg Thor being drunk is what saved him from being crippled:
https://imgur.com/a/J9XMMkj

"The attack is intended to remove skull from spine. And were it not for the limberness born of his inebriation, it would have. "

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
how didn't you know generation battle was a simulation in her vanishing point? This wasn't even old just 2 years ago. lol Generations really did happen. It takes place years in the past, as specifically stated:
https://imgur.com/a/XtQkdyv
Thor specifically references Uncanny #6, in which he first fought Apocalypse:
https://imgur.com/a/E2MQSkl
You can see, at the end of the issue, after Jane goes back to the events of Secret Empire #10, showing Thor and Odin/Phoenix's love story both of which, is literally continued in mainstream titles (such as Marvel Legacy #1)
https://imgur.com/a/w0ASP7L

Why are you still trolling?

...

Ok, 1. You do know Sryfe shouldn't be able to do that because Apocalypse 100% control over his mocluels yes or no?

2. That's not even Loki that's Kang

3. being drunk doesn't increase Thor's healing

So are you just going to instantly ignore things you were wrong about?

Why are you trolling this forum?

Why do you lie about Generations?

Why do you not read the Stryfe arc to know that Apoc was weakened?

Why are you posting contradictory things, in different threads?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t659377.html

Are you getting stomped by somebody on comicvine and need help?

Raise a white flag.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
...

Ok, 1. You do know Sryfe shouldn't be able to do that because Apocalypse 100% control over his mocluels yes or no? Apocalypse was very weakened when he fought Stryfe, so whatever he'd be able to do at 100%, it's not applicable for that version of Apocalypse.

You were wrong to use that example.

Stop trolling

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
2. That's not even Loki that's Kang That's Kang,disguised as Loki, to manipulate Thor into creating the axe, which was later used against the Celestials, yes. It's evident by the same page where he gives Thor the knowledge https://imgur.com/a/zMTCnPS] What is your point here? Why did you bring up the axe? What does this have to do with anything talked about here?

What the actual f*ck are you doing?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
3. being drunk doesn't increase Thor's healing Being drunk allowed Thor to take Apocalypse's shot, when he specifically would have been crippled otherwise.

You're the one who brought up being drunk as a liability, when it was an advantage.

Alberto raises some good points here

He needs to directly link to the comicvine thread, instead of fishing for arguments to help him by taking the opposite position.

Dude, are you serious? I LITERALLY said it's a simulation none of that stuff counts

(SIMULATION)

Individually nor Thor nor Jane were some match for Apocalypse. So outmatched that i though they shouldn't win even with combined forces.

Didn't Apocalypse destroy Stryfe when 100% (or it wasn't canon)?

Apocalypse wins.

Been a while since I looked into it, but I could have swore that Apocalypse said Archangel was his, indicating it was the same dudes. They supposedly killed Apoc after so...

Definitely not out of the realm of possibility considering Stryfe wasn't exactly a world beater, it's just not something 616 Apoc did (or did he?).

I don't get the assumption of him assuming I'm troll. the entire stuff of generation was a simulation. she LITERALLY says that

She said I wanted to teach them how to be heroes in my vanishing point. Read the scans

There's been a few posts lately that I just can't see the person's POV or that I can't even read for that matter...

Am I losing my mind, or are other people experiencing this too?

Gladiator struggled against Black Bolt alone whilst Apoc held his own against Black Bolt aided by a xmen team.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Gladiator struggled against Black Bolt alone whilst Apoc held his own against Black Bolt aided by a xmen team.

This apoc had a amp.

In house of M (other universe, i know) BB killed him with no effort.

Gladiator restrained Jane too:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/eIA7-oDrS15riMcSF2ezY8PqnCHhcVQ1VYGWEU9mkgqpDRtBmOWz2e-0r4nZ7MTJY4-pYWwC54quqXcJLpTYqH-Io2TVZVYpcJzO5MXZED4EC75YfIgOhxNwgzHDewssC1-Q=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ TbJ0xn6saqRVTQvco_7aqo9tSCh7w1LcqkPiDp3EqmG8hQaz19
_qTUvkNzwVO4Zo6pm70_mB7u0BrVCYC7--5U5D8gVvrbk5klYHJTG8l-1ATd9csV-iPrlwVC3uMhb_7Lw4=s1600


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CZ9NcD-HhIHrcb5IOiByBM2teexKZlbCDUQ9aw0WTXeaUttpeGNNqTdR- 0piRkVLjoDsQ0L6IN5AD7BOKC2EshIBaF5HSrFDWOufpcjF1R3
VZlJauTNujxiG74aNmAHEr1JW=s1600

If you ask me, is easier to restrain someone with a giant hand. Is even possible to theorize that Jane lost her conscience for some seconds (all went black). So, i dont think the Apocalypse feat put him ahead of Gladiator. If the Odison didnt come to help Jane, i think she could do something.

I agree that Gladiator cannot one shot Apocalypse with a bullrush to his head. But nothing is stoping him to do that over and over again.



If the fight against the young Thor, his slap was much stronger (or, affected Thor much worst) than the second fight. Odinson barely felt the attack from the giant hand.

We have much other stances where Apocalypse didnt had this level of strengh (break Thor spine with 1 hit), like his fight against Loki (who barely felt Apocalipse attacks) or even the fight against Ikaris (a guy who lost a h2h fight to Black Bolt).

But ok, this is a high-end Apocalypse. Still, i think Gladiator is more durable than this young Thor.



Tanked it, but Gladiator was not trying to kill him. He avoid the fight, and ask him to not fight:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/0BthsXHWWZk- 9gNBoKdcnrrwiuLeuuWpxQDNcI6bohuIVuaB1aoKN31FT0qVdV
hJbzWYxvpxKSfp8bPmay5k2VkMLoDgK6IT51sIPUYHVF8p46-KXbX7MJVcbUOSVJI7t-V2=s1600

We saw in the past Gladiator killing a Nova corps member, with a "bullrush" move : http://i.imgur.com/mGvtMY4.jpg

A "galaxy range" bullrush should be stronger than that, dont?


About Apocalypse other powers, i agree that he could win via BFR, but not in direct combat.

Apocalypse is not slow, but i dont think he is in Gladiator level of speed. Also, Gladiator hotter than sun eye beam is surely a good weapon in this fight. Apocalypse choose to dodge the beam from Ikaris. Imo the Gladiator attack is stronger.

PS: Sorry for the delay!

^ broken link

Idk why some worked and some dont. I cant edit anymore, but all broken links are from this issue: https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Mighty-Thor-2016/Issue-15?id=100646

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Gladiator restrained Jane too:

If you ask me, is easier to restrain someone with a giant hand. Is even possible to theorize that Jane lost her conscience for some seconds (all went black). So, i dont think the Apocalypse feat put him ahead of Gladiator. If the Odison didnt come to help Jane, i think she could do something.

I agree that Gladiator cannot one shot Apocalypse with a bullrush to his head. But nothing is stoping him to do that over and over again. Gladiator choked her out, while Apocalypse restrained her entire body with one hand. The latter takes considerably more strength than the former.

I don't see the Gladiator as the hit-and-run type. Besides, what's stopping Apocalypse from teleporting out of the way at some point? It's not like he's a pinata there, just waiting to get striked.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
If the fight against the young Thor, his slap was much stronger (or, affected Thor much worst) than the second fight. Odinson barely felt the attack from the giant hand.

We have much other stances where Apocalypse didnt had this level of strengh (break Thor spine with 1 hit), like his fight against Loki (who barely felt Apocalipse attacks) or even the fight against Ikaris (a guy who lost a h2h fight to Black Bolt).

But ok, this is a high-end Apocalypse. Still, i think Gladiator is more durable than this young Thor. Apocalypse doesn't need to always strike Thor with spine breaking shots in order to prove his superiority over Gladiator, though. The overall point still remains - he is portrayed as considerably stronger than Thor, which is what needs to be shown in order to argue the same over Gladiator. He also looked very good against Ikaris , and against Loki it was a scuffle, not necessarily a serious fight, and even then floored him with a headbutt.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Tanked it, but Gladiator was not trying to kill him. He avoid the fight, and ask him to not fight:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/0BthsXHWWZk- 9gNBoKdcnrrwiuLeuuWpxQDNcI6bohuIVuaB1aoKN31FT0qVdV
hJbzWYxvpxKSfp8bPmay5k2VkMLoDgK6IT51sIPUYHVF8p46-KXbX7MJVcbUOSVJI7t-V2=s1600

We saw in the past Gladiator killing a Nova corps member, with a "bullrush" move : http://i.imgur.com/mGvtMY4.jpg

A "galaxy range" bullrush should be stronger than that, dont?A nova corps member is, obviously, not as durable as Apocalypse. I don't understand your position in regards to Gladiator's attack on Heimdall, are you saying that he flew the entire galaxy, but he slowed down before hitting Heimdall? Furthermore, you're bringing up stuff like Ikaris and Loki, but you're ignoring the fact that Heimdall bloodied Gladiator in a hard fought fight, in the same example you're using:
https://imgur.com/a/d5Jxj7U

Regardless, Apocalypse can easily regenerate and make his body malleable for the attack:
https://i.imgur.com/GV86BF6.jpg

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
About Apocalypse other powers, i agree that he could win via BFR, but not in direct combat.

Apocalypse is not slow, but i dont think he is in Gladiator level of speed. Also, Gladiator hotter than sun eye beam is surely a good weapon in this fight. Apocalypse choose to dodge the beam from Ikaris. Imo the Gladiator attack is stronger.

PS: Sorry for the delay! Dodging something is not the same as being afraid of it. Apocalypse has dodged Cyclops' eye beams, too, yet palms them when he feels like it.

The only thing keeping Gladiator in this fight is his speed, really.

Why is this a debate? Apocalypse would manhandle Glads as an adult would handle a kid

Originally posted by Bentley
Why is this a debate? Apocalypse would manhandle Glads as an adult would handle a kid Speed.

These are Marvel characters Philo, they are all SLOW

Excellent point.

Originally posted by Bentley
These are Marvel characters Philo, they are all SLOW

So, Surfer, Runner, Makkari, etc are slow?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
So, Surfer, Runner, Makkari, etc are slow?

I do not actually need to explain that a sweeping assumption about all Marvel characters was meant as a joke, right? ahah

Hal's top speed might be above those you mention though

marvel is slow
dc is shit with tp and energy projection

marvel is strong in science
dc is powerful in magic

Golgo is twitching right now

Originally posted by Bentley
I do not actually need to explain that a sweeping assumption about all Marvel characters was meant as a joke, right? ahah

Hal's top speed might be above those you mention though

travel speed isnt combat speed

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
travel speed isnt combat speed

I thought you are arguing for Surfer...
this is argument against Surfer...

Originally posted by MrMind
I thought you are arguing for Surfer...
this is argument against Surfer...

yeah i know, surfer has excellent combat speed

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
yeah i know, surfer has excellent combat speed
Does he now?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Does he now?

well... yeah. can't say the same the Hal

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
well... yeah. can't say the same the Hal
I'm willing to bet Hal has better combat speed feats than Surfer does

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm willing to bet Hal has better combat speed feats than Surfer does

facepalm

Gladiator also chocked her with one hand, and she was with her arms free to fight back. Apocalypse restrained her body for a moment, dont letting her move or make much strengh. Anyway, i think it was possible more because his size than his pure strengh.



Sure, but he can use this in some moment of the fight, and it could him a opening to a sequence of attacks.

Apocalypse could teleport to avoid the attack but how he will see him? Gladiator can watch from very far - a galaxy away, and he will cover this distance in a very short time. He could attack Apolypse back for example. In a non PIS scenario, i think that is very hard for the mutant to see this attack coming.



But his "superiority" is only based because this strike and this fight. If you take this fight off, you have very few to argue that he is stronger, or even at same level of Gladiator. If you take of this fight, you have him struggling against guys who are low heralds (or lower) in phisical terms.

Also, he was portrayed stronger than the young Thor, not the regular Thor. Regular Thor destroyed Genesis without any effort.



Sure. But i was trying to show that he can do more than "little damage" with this kind of attack.



I think you are trying to say that even if Gladiator use this attack, this dont do more than a little harm in someone like Heimdall. My point is: a regular punch is stronger than a assault like that? A attack much faster than light, flying over a entire galaxy, in maybe less than one second? This make no sense. It only did little damage to Heimdall because the circumstances. I dont know if Gladiator slowed down, or if he just dont aim for the center of Heimdall body. But i dont think is reasonable to think that this kind of attack is weaker than punches, like the punch he used to defeat Vulcan. Do you think?



Well, this fight was very fast. Gladiator defeated him in instants after he refused to surrender. Sure, he take some damage from a magical sword, but he kinda owned him after that. I think Apocalypse could take blood from Gladiator too.



Ok, but did he tanked something on pair with Gladiator eyes blasts? This could damage him.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Gladiator also chocked her with one hand, and she was with her arms free to fight back. Apocalypse restrained her body for a moment, dont letting her move or make much strengh. Anyway, i think it was possible more because his size than his pure strengh.You can't say "more because his size than his pure strength", since "size" is not the "thing" applying the pressure, that "thing" is the "strength". You could say that he gets 'stronger' with size, but he seemed just as strong when he was 'normal' size in their first encounter where he nearly shattered his spine, and nothing's stopping him from increasing in size here, either.

Also, it's easier to put pressure on the neck and KO somebody unconscious, than to immobilize their entire body -- with one hand.



The combatants don't start a Galaxy away, so Apocalypse would see him just fine.

Go over the forum rules, please.



No, his superiority is based on two fights - under two different writers - against two different Thors, both separately, and together.

It is rather conclusive that Apocalypse is stronger.

Genesis is, also, not Apocalypse. And Thor used the axe against him.



Against weak people, sure.

Can you provide proof against somebody on Apocalypse's level?

All you've showed up until now is Gladiator trying this against Heimdall, failing, and then going in an off-panel fight that he won, but bloodied him.

It doesn't ring of confidence in this tactic, I might say.



You used Gladiator bullrushing as a tactic.

It didn't work, on Heimdall.

You're not even giving me concrete opinion on why you think it didn't work on Heimdall. Or instances where it worked, for it to matter, against somebody on this level.

I'm trying to understand your position on why you think it would work on Apocalypse. You have to give me something.


If Gladiator would have defeated him in instants, his costume wouldn't be torn and he'd be bleeding.

It was a fight.

As I said, be careful what you use, or it might backfire.

I haven't even started on Gladiator's less flattering showings.

Would you be willing to take a bet that they're much lower than Apocalypse's?

Who says he needs to tank them?

He could shapeshift or teleport out of their way, if he doesn't want to get hit. Or shield himself from them. Plenty of options.

Hell, he could do any of that, and also hit Gladiator with his own:
http://i.imgur.com/IGt2s7C.jpg

Fun fact: Glads got hurt by O5 Scott's optic blasts (pre-Krakoa upgrade).

While Nur was exposed to much stronger blasts and always laughed them off.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fun fact: Glads got hurt by O5 Scott's optic blasts (pre-Krakoa upgrade).

While Nur was exposed to much stronger blasts and always laughed them off.

The same Cyclops that would go on to punch down Gladiator... Sounds right to me.

Different fight, different universe

And it was post-Krakoa Cyke who staggered Glads with his almighty double fist punch.

It all counts!

Cant Apoc take him to the astral plane and dominate him?

Originally posted by leonidas
and had no problem restraining the hulk.... the same hulk who broke gladiator's face.
To be fair they fought near a power plant that had a specific radiation that weakened Gladiator.

Anyways Apocalypse 6/10