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Alright, there is apparently multiple people thinking that Vader would lose, I would like to see why.

Both are in their prime.

Battle is on Mustafar. :3

Obviously Vader.

Regardless of when one think his prime is, Knightfall Vader is confirmed to be more powerful then the Anakin who tooled Dooku.

KF Vader stomps.

If it's suit Vader then he dies.

Originally posted by HP Legend
KF Vader stomps.

If it's suit Vader then he dies.

Originally posted by HP Legend
KF Vader stomps.

If it's suit Vader then he dies. What if it was prime suit Vader? :3

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
What if it was prime suit Vader? :3

He still dies.

Vader beats Dooku, even suit Vader

Originally posted by HP Legend
He still dies.

How?

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
How?

Inferior feats. I haven't seen a single case which has been remotely convincing for Vader>Dooku.

Dooku dies

Any incarnation of Vader aside from 19 BBY Vader wins

LOTL still on the Azronger train :/

Dooku Beats Vader

Eh, either way.

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
LOTL still on the Azronger train :/

Dooku Beats Vader

Silence, easily influenced sheep

If we are being honest here, aside from deliberate lowballing of Vader, there is no case to be made for Dooku at all.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Silence, easily influenced sheep

If we are being honest here, aside from deliberate lowballing of Vader, there is no case to be made for Dooku at all. :

Originally posted by HP Legend
Inferior feats. I haven't seen a single case which has been remotely convincing for Vader>Dooku.

Vader has better accolades and better tk feats. Dooku is not>Vader

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
:

Agreed. Though a case can be made for Dooku taking sabers at least.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Vader has better accolades and better tk feats. Dooku is not>Vader Exactly.

For example, remember when he took apart the AT-AT using telekinesis? :3

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Silence, easily influenced sheep

If we are being honest here, aside from deliberate lowballing of Vader, there is no case to be made for Dooku at all.

Agreed, though a case can be made for Dooku taking sabers atleast.

Gotta say, this has really convinced me. Lucky KMC still has IndyJedi and Victre to keep it alive.

Yeah someone who was stalemated by Old Ben who was described as a "shadow" of his former self isn't going to beat someone who sent prime Kenobi hurtling across a room with the "slightest whipcrack" of his power.

Dooku sweeps. It isn't close.

Originally posted by HP Legend
KF Vader stomps.

If it's suit Vader then he dies.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah someone who was stalemated by Old Ben who was described as a "shadow" of his former self isn't going to beat someone who sent prime Kenobi hurtling across a room with the "slightest whipcrack" of his power.

Dooku sweeps. It isn't close.

0 points for originality. This has been debunked to death

Originally posted by DarthCaedus77


I remember u were voting for Vader once, what happened?

Nais Ingelsk

Az refused to induct me when I asked him yet I'm a Sheevite. How the **** does that work?

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
0 points for originality. This has been debunked to death

Then quickly fill me in on the supposed "debunk".

-

HP and DC77 are definite sheevites

He flung Kenobi across the room yes, but was then defeated by Anakin who was later defeated by Kenobi so... :3

lol

Originally posted by bdsmbdsm
lol

I enjoy my jokes.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Then quickly fill me in on the supposed "debunk".

Dooku only ragdolled him when he was caught of guard. And in the ROTS Kenobi was actually tiring him out. Stop lowballing Vader, unless you are trolling?

Nah lol

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Dooku only ragdolled him when he was caught of guard. And in the ROTS Kenobi was actually tiring him out. Stop lowballing Vader, unless you are trolling?

The fact that Kenobi while literally stonewalling Dooku and staring him right in the face was caught off guard by Dooku's Force Push is one of the most laughable claims I've heard and if true proves how incompetent Kenobi is and doesn't debunk anything.

We've got 2 conclusions we can draw from this:

A) Kenobi had a defence up and wasn't retarded but is still vastly weaker than The Count.

B) Dooku hit Kenobi with a Force Push before he could react while the latter was staring him directly in the face proving how incompetent Kenobi is.

Either works my case as they both show Dooku is much better than Kenobi with only the latter proving Kenobi's ridiculously incompetent.

As for Dooku being tired out by Kenobi just read what bdsmbdsm said. That deals with it perfectly.

Originally posted by HP Legend
The fact that Kenobi while literally stonewalling Dooku and staring him right in the face was caught off guard by Dooku's Force Push is one of the most laughable claims I've heard and if true proves how incompetent Kenobi is and doesn't debunk anything.

We've got 2 conclusions we can draw from this:

A) Kenobi had a defence up and wasn't retarded but is still vastly weaker than The Count.

B) Dooku hit Kenobi with a Force Push before he could react while the latter was staring him directly in the face proving how incompetent Kenobi is.

Either works my case as they both show Dooku is much better than Kenobi with only the latter proving Kenobi's ridiculously incompetent. Kenobi was looking directly at Greivous and the Force Pushed him into a wall and obviously, Greivous didn't expect that.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Kenobi was looking directly at Greivous and the Force Pushed him into a wall and obviously, Greivous didn't expect that.

Lmao. Grievous didn't expect it but had more than enough time to react once Kenobi made it obvious what he was about to do but he couldn't actually do anything about it. Kenobi on the other hand has the Force and can actually put up a barrier against Dooku's attacks but either fails to or gets rekt regardless.

The former conclusion indicates Dooku is far faster given Kenobi can't react while staring directly at him and the latter proves any defence Kenobi puts up is insignificant.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Lmao. Grievous didn't expect it but had more than enough time to react once Kenobi made it obvious what he was about to do but he couldn't actually do anything about it. Kenobi on the other hand has the Force and can actually put up a barrier against Dooku's attacks but either fails to or gets rekt regardless.

The former conclusion indicates Dooku is far faster given Kenobi can't react while staring directly at him and the latter proves any defence Kenobi puts up is insignificant. When in the hell did Kenobi give any sign of Force Pushing him?

And Kenobi didn't attempt of pulling up any shield at all, he just stood there and was forced under a staircase.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Lmao. Grievous didn't expect it but had more than enough time to react once Kenobi made it obvious what he was about to do but he couldn't actually do anything about it. Kenobi on the other hand has the Force and can actually put up a barrier against Dooku's attacks but either fails to or gets rekt regardless.

The former conclusion indicates Dooku is far faster given Kenobi can't react while staring directly at him and the latter proves any defence Kenobi puts up is insignificant. Your saying that Obi-wan is weaker and insignificant to Dooku, but what doesn't make sense is anakin beat dooku, proving that he is stronger than Dooku, but Obi-wan beat anakin on Mustafar (in which they were both the same skill level from the battle aboard Greivous's dreadnought)

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
Nah lol
Well it's either that, Dooku is far more powerful, or Kenobi is just a spastic.

Originally posted by LaserBoi
Your saying that Obi-wan is weaker and insignificant to Dooku, but what doesn't make sense is anakin beat dooku, proving that he is stronger than Dooku, but Obi-wan beat anakin on Mustafar (in which they were both the same skill level from the battle aboard Greivous's dreadnought)

Yeah Obi Wan beat a hindered Anakin on Mustafar. Let's not pretend like Anakin doesn't stomp Kenobi on neutral ground.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
When in the hell did Kenobi give any sign of Force Pushing him?

And Kenobi didn't attempt of pulling up any shield at all, he just stood there and was forced under a staircase.

1. When he took like 3 seconds to draw his hand back lol.

2. Well we didn't actually see it happen on screen n the movie given it cuts to Palpatine's face and the novels descirption is vague as all it says is Kenobi was sent flying. There is no indication of whether or not Kenobi put up a defence but given he was staring Dooku in the face and was literally stonewalling him in sabers beforehand I think it's pretty unrealistic to assume he didn't put up a defence. Also even if he didn't that just proves Kenobi is a retard who can't even put up a defcen when he's staring someone directly in the face making it plausible that Dooku can beat him anyway.

Take your pick:

-Kenobi is inferior to Dooku.

-Kenobi is retarded.

How about both?

Originally posted by bdsmbdsm
How about both?



Sounds good.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah Obi Wan beat a hindered Anakin on Mustafar. Let's not pretend like Anakin doesn't stomp Kenobi on neutral ground. I don’t know if that is the definition of hindered..

Originally posted by HP Legend
1. When he took like 3 seconds to draw his hand back lol.

2. Well we didn't actually see it happen on screen n the movie given it cuts to Palpatine's face and the novels descirption is vague as all it says is Kenobi was sent flying. There is no indication of whether or not Kenobi put up a defence but given he was staring Dooku in the face and was literally stonewalling him in sabers beforehand I think it's pretty unrealistic to assume he didn't put up a defence. Also even if he didn't that just proves Kenobi is a retard who can't even put up a defcen when he's staring someone directly in the face making it plausible that Dooku can beat him anyway.

Take your pick:

-Kenobi is inferior to Dooku.

-Kenobi is retarded. I would say about 1.7 seconds at most really. :3

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
I would say about 1.7 seconds at most really. :3

More than enough given Grievous can strike 20 times in a second.

Originally posted by HP Legend
More than enough given Grievous can strike 20 times in a second. And has four arms. :3

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
And has four arms. :3

5 times in a second then with 1 arm. Still good enough.

Originally posted by HP Legend
5 times in a second then with 1 arm. Still good enough. And full rotation wrist. :3

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
And full rotation wrist. :3

Jesus Christ you're persistent. Not having a full rotation wrist isn't gonna bring his 5 strikes a second down to 1 strike a second lol.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Jesus Christ you're persistent. A full rotation wrist isn't gonna bring his 5 strikes a second down to 1 strike a second lol. You sure? :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmxmbiFkGl0

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
You sure? :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmxmbiFkGl0

This proves what exactly?

Originally posted by HP Legend
Inferior feats. I haven't seen a single case which has been remotely convincing for Vader>Dooku.


let me help you with that:


https://i.imgur.com/DtsmxbP.gif

Originally posted by Red Heathen
let me help you with that:


https://i.imgur.com/DtsmxbP.gif

I'm not sure how using a feat Vader accomplished while amped by "light side super energy" per George Lucas and preparing for minutes beforehand to do it surpasses anything Dooku has done. It's completely unquantifiable.

There was nothing about it published. Don't crap out and use that lame excuse.

It was in the novel...

Originally posted by Red Heathen
There was nothing about it published. Don't crap out and use that lame excuse.

Both the fact files and George Lucas have said he was amped. I'm not making up lame excuses lol.

Originally posted by bdsmbdsm
It was in the novel... I completely missed that in the book. Could you please locate the quote for me?


Originally posted by HP Legend
Both the fact files and George Lucas have said he was amped. I'm not making up lame excuses lol.


LAME

Totally lame.

We're discussing Legends, and in Legends, FF or anything else that wasn't g canon < g canon. Even Lucas' statements could not contradict the movies. Here is the script:

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader
struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side.

EMPEROR
Young fool...only now, at the end, do you understand.

Luke is almost unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the
Emperor's lightning. He clutches a canister to keep from falling into
the bottomless shaft as the bolts tear through him.
....
EMPEROR
Now, young Skywalker...you will die.

Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts
from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound
screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.

Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed
figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm.
The Emperor struggles in his embrace, his bolt-shooting hands now
lifted high, away from Luke. Now the white lightning arcs back to
strike at Vader. He stumbles with his load as the sparks rain off his
helmet and flow down over his black cape. He holds his evil master high
over his head and walks to the edge of the abyss at the central core of
the throne room. With one final burst of his once awesome strength,
Darth Vader hurls the Emperor's body into the bottomless shaft.

The Emperor's body spins helplessly into the void, arcing as it falls
into the abyss. Finally, when the body is far down the shaft, it
explodes, creating a rush of air through the room.Vader's cape is
whipped by the wind and he staggers, and collapses toward the
bottomless hole. Luke crawls to his father's side and pulls him away
from the edge of the abyss to safety. Both the young Jedi and the giant
warrior are too weak to move.

==============
There is *nothing* that implies a "Light Side PIS Nexus".

Excerpts from the book agree with the script.

If anything, this is an extraordinary feat for Vader considering how horrendously weak he was. He couldn't even use one arm that well because, well, he just had it lopped off. He most likely had a concussion, if not, then he at least had the headache of a lifetime.

OK fine let's say he had a light side nexus amp. With that amp, he was:

"Weaker than he'd ever been..."

Vader had never been so weak. He had one arm. He was in pain. He moved only by sheer will of mind. His heart was being electrocuted the entire time by the Emperor's strongest lightning. The Emperor had just ramped up its strength to kill Luke:

"...the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity," and this was just after it was strong enough to render Luke (almost) unconscious.

What amp exactly did Vader have? It was a weak ass amp if it was there. It didn't do Vader any favors.

"Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor."

So what. Light Side. Dark Side. Either way, Vader tanked Sidious' strongest lightning for more than twenty seconds and tossed Sidious to his death.

If you can prove to me that Dooku's lightning > Sidious' lightning, then I'll concede, but you'll need to do this while taking into account *all* of Sidious' lightning showings in Legends as well as canon.

Also keep in mind that Vader did not have a light saber. Vader with a lightsaber will deflect anything Dooku's throws at him.

I'll respond tomorrow.

That was not even close to his strongest lightning, but okay...

Well there are quotes that state Palpatine's intention genuinely was to kill Luke after he rejected the dark-side... So I don't see why it wouldn't be his full-strength lightning.

Originally posted by bdsmbdsm
Well there are quotes that state Palpatine's intention genuinely was to kill Luke after he rejected the dark-side... So I don't see why it wouldn't be his full-strength lightning.

Yeah the fact that he wanted to kill him is obvious but it's very clear he wanted to torture Luke first which he obviously can't do if Luke's dead which is what would happen if he released his Lightning's full potency.

It's likely he scaled back his Lightning.

I see, fair.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah the fact that he wanted to kill him is obvious but it's very clear he wanted to torture Luke first which he obviously can't do if Luke's dead which is what would happen if he released his Lightning's full potency.

It's likely he scaled back his Lightning.

Scaled back his lightning...

It seems clear in the excerpts that I added earlier that Sidious wasn't trying to kill Luke at first, but Sidious later says "you're gonna die." When he does, it's very clear that he increased the potency of his lightning:

"Now, young Skywalker, you will pay the price in full. You will die!"

"...the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increased in intensity."



Also, how strong does strong need to be in order to kill a person after the person is dead?

"Luke, I'm going to increase the power of my lightning and kill you."
*Sid's ramps up voltage. Kills Luke.*

Next day on KMC:

"Sid's did not use his strongest lightning!"

*Meanwhile, back on the Death Star, Luke's charred husk is being swept up by droids.*

Granted, I did say strongest lightning, but I don't see Dooku matching Sidious' capability in a capacity that could kill Vader. The only way it would kill Vader is if Vader isn't using his saber to deflect it and at the same time tanking it and charging Dooku and taking him down. If Vader were to die doing that, then Dooku dies before Vader no matter what. There is no way that Dooku is going to defeat Vader because Vader will kill himself before allowing Dooku to live. Vader did the same thing to Maul when he fought Maul in Resurrection, but Vader did survive after stabbing himself in the chest.

Also remember that Sidious' lightning got to Vader's heart. Vader has survived many other lightning blasts, including blasts of pure lightning from the sky, and didn't die. There is nothing to prove that Dooku's lightning can get through Vader's suit, throught the fail safes that Vader incorporated into his suit, and through Vader's shielding ability, and getting to his heart. He's taken bombs into his hands and held them next to his chest and absorbed the blasts with no real damage. He kept on walking. No helmet. No suit. He lives. Prove that Dooku can replicate what Sidious did and that he can get his lightning to Vader's heart.

Is Dooku strong enough to break Vader's Force Barrier? Tutaminis? And moving beyond this...

If Anakin's Djem So overpowered Dooku in ROTS, pre-opening to the dark side , then Vader's style will leave him in a puddle.

"Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows."

"The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground. ..."

"Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing"

just a by the way to help put voltage into perspective:

"For one thing, the contact voltage of a typical industrial electrical shock is 20 to 63 kilovolts, while a lightning strike delivers about 300 kilovolts.

Industrial shocks rarely last longer than half a second (500 milliseconds) because a circuit breaker opens or the person is thrown far from the live conductor. Lightning strikes have an even shorter duration, only lasting up to a few milliseconds. Most of the current from a lightning strike passes over the surface of the body in a process called "external flashover.""

^^^

three hundred thousand volts in a lightning bolt.

now, think about the fact that exposure for the average human is measured in milliseconds. .... ok, now think about the fact that vader tanked sidious' lightning for nine seconds.

at the same time, consider the fact that luke had great potential in the force and already possessed some of the greatest raw power in the force compared to just about any character in SW. also consider that luke is known for having tremendous will power, which has saved him many times from being killed and also from turning the dark side. it even helped him turning back to the light side, which is supposed to be (near) impossible. sidious' lightning was strong enough to kill luke-to break through his will power, or so we assume so because it is stated in the movie and in the novelization and is in the script. sidious' lightning is exceedingly strong, and vader tanked it for nine seconds or so. icr off hand.

Originally posted by HP Legend
I'm not sure how using a feat Vader accomplished while amped by "light side super energy" per George Lucas and preparing for minutes beforehand to do it surpasses anything Dooku has done. It's completely unquantifiable.

Well considering he did that to the most powerful force user ever, I'd say it is an impressive feat, and disregarding it is just blatant lowballing of Vader. Dooku would get fried by Sidious's lightning just as badly as Mace did in ROTS.
Vader beats Dooku, it's that simple. If he isn't beating him in a duel, then he is using TK. Vader's skill with djem and juyo is also enough to tire Dooku out.
It' a great fight though

Red Heathen is killing it 👍

Lmao. Rebuttal will be up in a few hours time more than likely. For gosh sake though as bdsmbdsm said I didn't ask for a wall of text that doesn't actually prove anything. I have CaV posts to write.

Originally posted by Red Heathen

Re: Vader vs Sidious

1) The Script vs George Lucas



This is just blatant dishonesty. You were willing to accept The Wrath of Darth Maul's account of Maul leading Qui Gon along despite it not being mentioned anywhere in the original script or novelization for TPM which according to this logic would mean it was overruled. You only decide to acknowledge things like this when it suits your argument. Regardless we don't just dismiss Lucas later making notes on the source material nor Fact Files elaborating on the context simply because he did not mention it anywhere in the orignal script. In order for something to be overruled and rendered N-Canon there would have to be a direct contradiction which in this case there isn't. And you've lectured me on the G-Canon rules before and now completely ignored them here. Ironic.



Which is totally irrelevant. In order for Lucas's statement to be rendered N-Canon there would have to a direct contradicted ie: the script saying Vader wasn't amped but unfortunately for you the Script makes no mention of whether Vader was amped or not.



Which is irrelevant given the script doesn't actually contradict Lucas's statements or the Fact File.

2) Vader Weakened



Yeah Vader was weakened physically sure but that's completely irrelevant to his inner Force Strength.



Good because he did.



Which says nothing about Vader's Force strength at all. The quote very clearly is referring to his weakened physical strength.



You're baselessly assuming The Emperor's Lightning was actually at its full potency which it wasn't. The Emperor's Lightning increasing in intensity while electrocuting Luke doesn't mean it was actually at full strength. That's nonsense.



I'm amused that you think that fufilling the prophecy of the Chosen One while amped by "light side super energy" is a weak ass amp. This "weak ass amp" is the only reason Vader accomplished the feat per numerous sources with the official fact file 111 noting "It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star."

The specific source of Vader's newfound stength was his love for his son per the fact file.

Not to mention Vader's canonical equal (Luke) was disabled by a mere fraction of The Emperor's power so any argument that Vader tanking The Emperor's power is somehow where he operates normally is blatantly false.



Yeah after charging his power up for minutes and possessing "super energy".



I don't need to prove Dooku's Lightning>Sidious's Lightning given Vader can be taken out by a mere fraction of Sidious's power.

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi

3) Vader Lowballing



Yeah I'm sure ignoring an unquantifiable feat is blatant lowballing. Whatever floats your boat.



No shit.



Still haven't seen an argument against Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi=Vader.



It's a decent fight at best and Dooku takes it.

(Continued Below)

Originally posted by HP Legend
Lmao. Rebuttal will be up in a few hours time more than likely. For gosh sake though as bdsmbdsm said I didn't ask for a wall of text that doesn't actually prove anything. I have CaV posts to write.

"wall of text"...

The vast majority of his posts are quotes. The actual quantity of his arguments isn't much.

Will address the rest later. Don't have the energy for this.

No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll Trolls?

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing. Could you give us a feat placing Dooku over Vader? :3

How about when Vader crushed the AT-AT that was being driven by Han Solo? :3

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
No idea why Dooku is winning the poll

Because people on this forum are brain-dead idiots.

Peak-Vader (whichever form that is) is indisputably more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because he's better? I've asked multiple times for a feat for Vader on Dooku's level and what I get in return is a showing that is completely unquantifiable and supposed "debunks" that don't exist. Please enlighten me as to why he'd win. I prefer Vader as a character but these arguments are truly laughable and haven't convinced me of a single thing.

Ok lets look at Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi. Dooku only ragdolled him when he was completely caught of guard in the movie. The novel actually goes indepth on Kenobi vs Dooku, as the movie didn't really show this because Kenobi was taken out so quickly. Dooku could barely keep up with Kenobi. Kenobi was absolutley hammering him until Dooku resorted to using force attacks to try and take him out. Not to mention Dooku couldn't even penetrate Kenobi's defence.
So in short Kenobi>Dooku as duelists. As for Ben Kenobi vs Vader. Ben Kenobi likely grew stronger in the force, which was why Vader couldn't ragdoll him. The New Hope novel also confirms Vader was winning the duel. Vader has far better TK feats, its not even funny. For goodness sake he can contend with a character who can use the force to take down Star Destroyers.

Well, Vader is winning now. 0-0

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi

Jesus Christ lmao.



Yeah let's look at the comparison which favours Dooku and stretch truth to the breaking point to make Kenobi look better.



False. There is absolutely no evidence Kenobi was caught off guard when Dooku one shotted him with a Force Push. And even if Kenobi was caught off guard in this instance it proves Dooku is faster given he can hit Kenobi before the latter can react while he's staring the former directly in the face.



Yeah the novel doesn't go in depth at all. It has Kenobi and Dooku fighting for basically a single paragraph.



False on all 3 accounts. Dooku could keep up with Kenobi lol and taking a single paragraph and omitting all context to it doesn't prove the opposite.

First off Kenobi was not hammering Dooku that can be primarily be attributed to Anakin who caught Dooku off guard. All Kenobi did was block Dooku's strikes.

And second off we get to the part where all context is being omitted. When Dooku couldn't breach Kenobi's defence he was already tired from deliberately toying with the duo as he believed them to be sloppy and inefficient as they duped him by using forms they were infamilair with and deliberately dumbed down their abilities. So we already have the fact that Dooku was tired. Now let's see what else was omitted.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

-Revenge of the Sith

If you could read you'd see Dooku was only stonewalled by Kenobi because he was operating under the pretense the latter was using Ataru as opposed to Soresu.

So in other words your entire argument is based on a single contextual paragraph where Dooku couldn't break Kenobi's defence due to circumstance with Kenobi actually being knocked out a second later by Dooku hitting him with a Force Push.

Don't you think that if Kenobi could beat Dooku solo the duo wouldn't have employed an elaborate strategy to get Dooku tired before surprising him? Of course they wouldn't have. The Kenobi>Dooku in sabers argument is one of the most retarded things I've heard.



Not a single source reaffirms what you're saying. I'd say Kenobi being described as a "shadow of his former self" indicates he wasn't nearly as strong as he was in ROTS.



Quote? As far as I'm concerned no source supports Vader>Kenobi. Vader couldn't break Kenobi's guard per Fightsaber and Vader concedes afterwards Kenobi was his equal iirc.



You are aware Galen stomped him in their first encounter and beat him while exhausted in their second.

Well, Galen could stomp Dooku pretty damn badly. X3

Vader reaches, Dooku teaches.

2. Yeah, but their ain't evidence of him getting knocked off guard either so... it is pretty damn obvious that Kenobi gets tossed around a lot,thank you Ventress.

"Not a single source reaffirms what you're saying. I'd say Kenobi being described as a "shadow of his former self" indicates he wasn't nearly as strong as he was in ROTS."
This is back to the "he was either fleeing from vader or Vader and troops" situation again. We covered this earlier, neither of us know the exact thought process of his.

"You are aware Galen stomped him in their first encounter and beat him while exhausted in their second."
I find Marek kind of a strange person to compare others to, he has some pretty damn stupid feats. By that, I mean somehow ws capable of bringing down a Star Destroyer in his early days of training, defeated Vader, and 'defeated" Sidious. There is also a theory stating that Vader was going easy on him, as he had another emotional battle with him, like when he battled Luke in the Death Star.


Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Vader reaches, Dooku teaches. Actually, Vader is one with 3 apprentices. :3

replied too early. deleted comment.

This forum is horrible me to type in. Would you mind if I copied and pasted our replies to a new thread in CV?

Originally posted by Red Heathen
This forum is horrible me to type in. Would you mind if I copied and pasted our replies to a new thread in CV?

Yeah KMC takes time to get used to.

PM me on CV and we can discuss it.