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https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/13/home-of-the-brave-land-of-the-free-speech-zones/

I hate free speech zones. Especially on college campuses.

Then again we have more free speech than any other country so...yeah.

Originally posted by Surtur

Then again we have more free speech than any other country so...yeah.
I take it you can give us a cross country comparison?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I take it you can give us a cross country comparison?

Interesting, are you going to argue we don't have more free speech than other countries? I'm honestly not interested in hunting down examples right now, first I'd ask you which country you think has more free speech than us. We can continue from there once you answer.

Stealing Fly's schtick here:





Thanks a lot, Democrats.


Bush may have started the "Free Speech Zones", but it looks like the DNC helped lay the groundwork to let it happen.

Originally posted by Surtur
Interesting, are you going to argue we don't have more free speech than other countries? .
I'm not arguing anything. You're the one who made a claim. You're the one with the burden of proof. And untill you meet that burden of proof, I'm going to ask ou to fufill it.

Please back up your claim that America has more free speech than every single other country on the planet. If you can't back that claim up, then don't make it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'm not arguing anything. You're the one who made a claim. You're the one with the burden of proof. And untill you meet that burden of proof, I'm going to ask ou to fufill it.

Please back up your claim that America has more free speech than every single other country on the planet. If you can't back that claim up, then don't make it.

I wanna see if it's worth trying to prove. Do you believe any other country grants citizens more free speech rights than the USA? Yes or no, and if yes, name the country.

It's not worth it to me if you're ignorant enough to say some other country has more free speech, sorry bro.

Originally posted by cdtm
Stealing Fly's schtick here:





Thanks a lot, Democrats.


Bush may have started the "Free Speech Zones", but it looks like the DNC helped lay the groundwork to let it happen.
I think you mean both the dnc and rnc laid the groundwork.

So since you want to make this a party judgement, that means:
-> both parties set a precedent
-> the Republican party's administration took the precedent further.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I think you mean both the dnc and rnc laid the groundwork.

So since you want to make this a party judgement, that means:
-> both parties set a precedent
-> the Republican party's administration took the precedent further.

Definitely.

The truth of it is, I tend to hold Democrats to a much higher standard then Republicans.

Originally posted by Surtur
I wanna see if it's worth trying to prove. Do you believe any other country grants citizens more free speech rights than the USA? Yes or no, and if yes, name the country.

It's not worth it to me if you're ignorant enough to say some other country has more free speech, sorry bro.

This isn't just open to Rocky, I call upon anyone who wants to argue another country grants more free speech rights. Any takers? Do not be shy.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I take it you can give us a cross country comparison?

I mean...yes. It's readily available information:


https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new

Originally posted by Surtur
This isn't just open to Rocky, I call upon anyone who wants to argue another country grants more free speech rights. Any takers? Do not be shy.

That's not how it works, sporto. You made the absolute claim of: "Then again we have more free speech than any other country so...yeah." which started this.

It's for you to prove that after Rocky asked you to support it.

Personally I don't know, maybe you're correct, but I'm also not making the claim as fact.

edit: Never mind, DDM bailed you out and did the footwork, you should thank him again.

Originally posted by Robtard
edit: Never mind, DDM bailed you out and did the footwork, you should thank him again.

I didn't bail him out. We are notorious for not having the best freedom of speech, in enforcement.

Constitutionally, we are probably the best. But we play it loose with those rules and free speech is oppressed all the time in the US. Just not as bad as Canada or Australia, for example.


Still among the most free speech zones in the world, yes, but not the best.


What I posted somewhat supports Surts' point. But it also proves him directly wrong about being the bestest free speech haven - not true.

Bailed him out on doing the foot work. Not proved him correct.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's not how it works, sporto. You made the absolute claim of: "Then again we have more free speech than any other country so...yeah." which started this.

It's for you to prove that after Rocky asked you to support it.

Personally I don't know, maybe you're correct, but I'm also not making the claim as fact.

edit: Never mind, DDM bailed you out and did the footwork, you should thank him again.

Yeah: no. That's not how it works anymore. Too many times have I done the digging on here only for it to just to be dismissed or spun. So if I decide I want to know someone's belief on a topic before I get into it with them? That is just what I'll do. If you don't like that or you do not find it fair? Irrelevant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't bail him out. We are notorious for not having the best freedom of speech, in enforcement.

Constitutionally, we are probably the best. But we play it loose with those rules and free speech is oppressed all the time in the US. Just not as bad as Canada or Australia, for example.


Still among the most free speech zones in the world, yes, but not the best.


What I posted somewhat supports Surts' point. But it also proves him directly wrong about being the bestest free speech haven - not true.

Oh enforcement? Sure, but I was thinking more about our constitution, etc.

Can't wait for Article 13 to shut down the EU Internet.

That will quieten things up nicely.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I mean...yes. It's readily available information:


https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new \
canada, the uk, and Norway all have higher freedom ratings. TBF though, ti's a marginal gap.

You could prolly make arguments for either one

Originally posted by Surtur
Oh enforcement? Sure, but I was thinking more about our constitution, etc.

Constitutionally, the American Civil Rights Act is a violation of the first amendment and anything like it. There's lots of laws and rulings that violates the first amendment rights in the US. That's part of why we don't have true freedom of speech in the US.

The fact the cake bake homophobe's case even went anywhere before being dismissed is proof of lack of power the first amendment should have in the US.

Free SPeech Zones, the confiscation of property and forced relocation of those who smoke weed, private prisions(again imprisonment is a restriction of someone's freedom), bail system, presidents threatining the press with legal power, the goverment paying for pro military propoganda and patriotism, the unjustified restrictions of rights for ex criminals, the restrictions regarding third party candidates, higher minimum ages for youth, and so much more are a suffecient to make the case that america isn't the most free planet. You can likely also make the case it is, but it's certanly up for discussion even though the dmb's and surts get triggered when people challenge their make believe fantasies of the world.

I'm open about my criticisms of civil asset forfeiture, private prisons (obviously I'm not against the existence of prisons, but I don't support something that generates a lobby in favor of advocating that more people be in jail for their profit), and weed criminalization.

That's largely why Trump's appointment of Jeff Sessions was in my top 5 least favorite actions of his presidency and why I was ecstatic when Sessions resigned

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Free SPeech Zones, the confiscation of property and forced relocation of those who smoke weed, private prisions(again imprisonment is a restriction of someone's freedom), bail system, presidents threatining the press with legal power, the goverment paying for pro military propoganda and patriotism, the unjustified restrictions of rights for ex criminals, the restrictions regarding third party candidates, higher minimum ages for youth, and so much more are a suffecient to make the case that america isn't the most free planet. You can likely also make the case it is, but it's certanly up for discussion even though the dmb's and surts get triggered when people challenge their make believe fantasies of the world.

By all means, let's discuss it: name the country that does it better.

See cuz your little rant you just went on? Is kinda making it seem like I said our system was perfect. I did not do so.

Oh and bro? America is not a planet.

Originally posted by Surtur
By all means, let's discuss it: name the country that does it better.

Norway, 100% for sure.

Netherlands and Belgium also come to mind.




But those are called "socialist" countries that have "no freedom" by conservatards.




Imagine what the US would be like with our amazing money, power, and spirit but operated more closely to countries like Netherlands or Norway?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Norway, 100% for sure.

Netherlands and Belgium also come to mind.




But those are called "socialist" countries that have "no freedom" by conservatards.




Imagine what the US would be like with our amazing money, power, and spirit but operated more closely to countries like Netherlands or Norway?

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2016/norway
Freedoms of expression, media freedom, and the right to access government information are guaranteed under Article 100 of Norway's constitution. The penal code prohibits hate speech, which can be punished with up to three years in prison.

Annnnd in what I could find for Belgium holocaust denial is illegal, and hate speech is also illegal, at least according to wikipedia.

Womp womp womp



Also I see plenty of conservatives criticize the left for referring to those countries as socialist. They make the point that those countries are actually capitalist countries which in some instances have more market freedom through less regulation than the US and that that, as well as inordinate tax rates, are how they support their welfare and healthcare stuff.

You'll see Ben Shapiro point out all the time that those countries aren't socialist.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2016/norway
Freedoms of expression, media freedom, and the right to access government information are guaranteed under Article 100 of Norway's constitution. The penal code prohibits hate speech, which can be punished with up to three years in prison.

Annnnd in what I could find for Belgium holocaust denial is illegal, and hate speech is also illegal, at least according to wikipedia.

Womp womp womp

Sounds like great freedom places to live minus the restrictions on hate speech; that's too much of a moving bar and results in thought-policing. The UK and Canada have those things, as well.

This guy got in big doodoo for being racist in Norway:

http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/norway-supreme-court-rules-on-boundaries-of-hate-speech/

Policing Hate Speech is a dangerous slippery slope, IMO. It's better to allow it than prohibit it for maximum freedom.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Also I see plenty of conservatives criticize the left for referring to those countries as socialist. They make the point that those countries are actually capitalist countries which in some instances have more market freedom through less regulation than the US and that that, as well as inordinate tax rates, are how they support their welfare and healthcare stuff.

You'll see Ben Shapiro point out all the time that those countries aren't socialist.

Norwegians did not take too kindly to Sanders referring to them as socialist, as well.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Norway, 100% for sure.

Netherlands and Belgium also come to mind.




But those are called "socialist" countries that have "no freedom" by conservatards.




Imagine what the US would be like with our amazing money, power, and spirit but operated more closely to countries like Netherlands or Norway?

Well no it's dipshit letists that call countries like that socialists lol. It's why Denmark told Bernie Sanders to shut the f*ck up and stop calling them socialists.

It does make me smile these folk always cite mostly white countries there for their propaganda.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well no it's dipshit letists that call countries like that socialists lol. It's why Denmark told Bernie Sanders to shut the f*ck up and stop calling them socialists.

It does make me smile these folk always cite mostly white countries there for their propaganda.

No, definitely conservatards refer to European countries as socialist shitholes.

There are some libtards who do it, too, of course. But the conservatards have the monopoly on this.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2016/norway
Freedoms of expression, media freedom, and the right to access government information are guaranteed under Article 100 of Norway's constitution. The penal code prohibits hate speech, which can be punished with up to three years in prison.

Annnnd in what I could find for Belgium holocaust denial is illegal, and hate speech is also illegal, at least according to wikipedia.

Womp womp womp



Also I see plenty of conservatives criticize the left for referring to those countries as socialist. They make the point that those countries are actually capitalist countries which in some instances have more market freedom through less regulation than the US and that that, as well as inordinate tax rates, are how they support their welfare and healthcare stuff.

You'll see Ben Shapiro point out all the time that those countries aren't socialist.

I guess I'm confused at why these countries are better then us then when it comes to this stuff lol. Not if everything you just posted is true.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, definitely conservatards refer to European countries as socialist shitholes.

There are some libtards who do it, too, of course. But the conservatards have the monopoly on this.

I disagree, dipshit leftists too stupid to know what socialism is love touting these places.

Conservatives usually tend to diss these countries in response to some moron going "look at Denmark!"

Originally posted by Surtur
I guess I'm confused at why these countries are better then us then when it comes to this stuff lol. Not if everything you just posted is true.
I think DDM is making talking about overall freedom.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think DDM is making talking about overall freedom.

Okay, but I was talking specifically about freedom of speech.

What can they do that we can't? Shout fire in a crowded theater?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think DDM is making talking about overall freedom.

Correct. No country has the ideal state of freedom "overall." All of them do well in one area and terribly in another. Freedom of Speech means nothing if you're dying in a ditch. Each of the major freedoms are tied to and are symbiotic with each other.

So just to be clear, you define freedom in some part based on what the government provides for its people?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So just to be clear, you define freedom in some part based on what the government provides for its people?


I define freedom in a Lockean since.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness/Property (depending on which quote you want to pull out).


You cannot pursue property, unless you're a monster (the fiercest monsters obtain the greatest property in an anarchy), in an anarchy. You cannot pursue happiness if you're constantly being beaten and in a ditch for not being part of a particular gang. You cannot pursue life if you have poor healthcare.

So it seems quite obvious that the people need a government that is for them, by them, and of them.




Notice anything in common with my points?

Edit - To directly answer you question because I hate weasels who are too much of a coward to answer a binary question.

No. The government, by definition, cannot provide freedom to people. The government can create a framework within which citizens can operate to maximize their freedom. There needs to be consequences for violations of others freedoms.

I believe that is the bigger piece in the philosophy of freedom between the EU and USA.

EU believes their freedoms are granted and protected by the govt to form a cohesive society.

While in the USA we believe we are born with individual freedoms and its the govt's job to make sure they are protected (while still reserving the right to protect certain freedoms individually.)

In a nutshell, mostly:P

Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct. No country has the ideal state of freedom "overall." All of them do well in on area and terribly in another. Freedom of Speech means nothing if you're dying in a ditch. Each of the major freedoms are tied to and are symbiotic with each other.

This is about speech lol. Only speech.

So does this mean no Norway does not in fact have superior freedom of speech than we do?

Again: this is only speech I'm discussing.

Originally posted by snowdragon
I believe that is the bigger piece in the philosophy of freedom between the EU and USA.

EU believes their freedoms are granted and protected by the govt to form a cohesive society.

While in the USA we believe we are born with individual freedoms and its the govt's job to make sure they are protected (while still reserving the right to protect certain freedoms individually.)

In a nutshell, mostly:P

Well yeah if the rights come *from* the government it means they can take back those rights as well. That's another way the UK f*cked up and it's why Americans say the rights are inherent.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well yeah if the rights come *from* the government it means they can take back those rights as well. That's another way the UK f*cked up and it's why Americans say the rights are inherent.

Which is why I summarized it without a lot of fluff.

I still believe the USA has a better system in regards to speech and how we view our rights/freedoms in regards to individuals (people not corporations.)

Originally posted by Surtur
This is about speech lol. Only speech.

This isn't a Comics vs. discussion. It's not about "only speech" because it was be stupid to think "only speech freedoms can be considered when disusing freedoms."

Originally posted by Surtur
So does this mean no Norway does not in fact have superior freedom of speech than we do?

Again: this is only speech I'm discussing.

Okay, in that case, no, the US is among the worst out of all modern countries when it comes to freedom of speech because I define that freedom in the following ways:

1. The ability to pursue an education independent of financial means. "Freedom of Speech" is also "Freedom of Thought" which encompasses education and the economic means to pursue that education. This is slowly becoming a non-issue because of the information age, however. Which is great. We need an open internet and inalienable rights with the information networks to pursue this new avenue of speech freedoms related to education. So this requires net neutrality rules and internet freedoms which we kind of suck at and need to improve.

2. Our press is among the most restricted out of modern countries. We treat our press rather terribly compared to other modern nations. We can do better.

3. We imprison people at much higher rates and in raw numbers compared to any other country in the world. The ability to express your speech is extremely limited when you're incarcerated, obviously. The US is the worst in the world in this category. The biggest demarcation in our freedom of speech rating.

4. The basic human right of healthcare greatly restrict our ability to free speech. We are not allowed to pursue speech-y things while our health is failing and costs too much for us to express our speech through economic means. Remember, true speech is the power to actually get your message to others without reprisals. That takes power and money.

The ability to have freedom of speech is dependent upon health (life), money (property and life), and the pursuit of happiness (true freedom to do what you want without harming others). The US sorely lacking compared to other modern countries in these areas.



You probably dislike how I've pointed out how the Freedom of Speech clearly has a symbiotic relationship with other rights and freedoms. But I warned you. I gave you hints. If you want this only about the freedom of speech while ignoring how the "Freedom of Speech" as cross-functional relationships with other basic freedoms, you'll get the political science book thrown at you.

That reads almost exactly like AOC's green plan in creating associations.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This isn't a Comics vs. discussion. It's not about "only speech" because it was be stupid to think "only speech freedoms can be considered when disusing freedoms."



Okay, in that case, no, the US is among the worst out of all modern countries when it comes to freedom of speech because I define that freedom in the following ways:

1. The ability to pursue an education independent of financial means. "Freedom of Speech" is also "Freedom of Thought" which encompasses education and the economic means to pursue that education. This is slowly becoming a non-issue because of the information age, however. Which is great. We need an open internet and inalienable rights with the information networks to pursue this new avenue of speech freedoms related to education. So this requires net neutrality rules and internet freedoms which we kind of suck at and need to improve.

2. Our press is among the most restricted out of modern countries. We treat our press rather terribly compared to other modern nations. We can do better.

3. We imprison people at much higher rates and in raw numbers compared to any other country in the world. The ability to express your speech is extremely limited when you're incarcerated, obviously. The US is the worst in the world in this category. The biggest demarcation in our freedom of speech rating.

4. The basic human right of healthcare greatly restrict our ability to free speech. We are not allowed to pursue speech-y things while our health is failing and costs too much for us to express our speech through economic means. Remember, true speech is the power to actually get your message to others without reprisals. That takes power and money.

The ability to have freedom of speech is dependent upon health (life), money (property and life), and the pursuit of happiness (true freedom to do what you want without harming others). The US sorely lacking compared to other modern countries in these areas.



You probably dislike how I've pointed out how the Freedom of Speech clearly has a symbiotic relationship with other rights and freedoms. But I warned you. I gave you hints. If you want this only about the freedom of speech while ignoring how the "Freedom of Speech" as cross-functional relationships with other basic freedoms, you'll get the political science book thrown at you.

I don't dislike anything you've said, I don't necessarily disagree these things can be connected...but I really just was talking about speech. And I think I'm correct about that when you break it down to just freedom speech: we have it better than anyone else.

Originally posted by snowdragon
That reads almost exactly like AOC's green plan in creating associations.


I don't know if you're talking to me but I agreed with 7 out of 10 of AOC's points that Fox news was mocking.