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let's take what has been said about weapon h at face value for the purpose of this fight--that is he has logan's hf and chulk's strength. he also has some pretty impressive h2h skills. he's fighting current superman in a 15'x15' indestructible cube. a little more room for supes to maneuver but not much.

can superman survive this cage match?

He gets cut in half.

Superman beats the shit out of him.

Who has he beaten to make you say that ABHI? Let me guess, you're going to post him heat vision a prism taking out a character weak against Sun light? This shouldn't be a hard question for you.

yeah sunlight weakness to exploit here. i actually think superman is eff'd here, but it is superman....

Honestly, he'd probably jam those claws right into his chest.

i think it would be interesting to see him get slashed. supes piercing durability is about as good as it gets, but adamantium+hulk strength? yeah, i think you're right.

I don't think adamantium plus Hulk strength will ever be accurately portrayed scaled up from Logan. It should cut through pretty much everything, and it should be Carver9 out of 9 in terms of effectiveness. But I don't think - once Weapon H gets handed off from Pak - that it will breach Carver5 tier on average.

I don't see a reason why he wouldn't cleave say Juggernaut in half with a swipe tbh, but I doubt we'll ever see a 9 out of 9 Carve like that. The dude is every Colossus Big Carver9 dream rolled into nine, but you can't simply do the shit he should be doing in comics.

Supes use his super speed to make Weapon H stab his own chest. And then makes his head bounce like a basketball against the ground at relativistic speeds.

Superman heat vision him to a pool of lava in 1 second

or

Superman breezes on him gently, then shatters the frozen Weapon H with one punch in 2 seconds

Originally posted by Bentley
Supes use his super speed to make Weapon H stab his own chest. And then makes his head bounce like a basketball against the ground at relativistic speeds.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/365/753/94c.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Who has he beaten to make you say that ABHI? Let me guess, you're going to post him heat vision a prism taking out a character weak against Sun light? This shouldn't be a hard question for you.

Who has Weapon H beaten , who possesses speed on this level?

Leo, you might want to equalise speed as well. The only guy who can even attempt to catch up to Flashes fighting each other isn't getting cut by slower opponents, if he doesn't want to be, in a forum fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Who has he beaten to make you say that ABHI? Let me guess, you're going to post him heat vision a prism taking out a character weak against Sun light? This shouldn't be a hard question for you.


He has straight up overpowered dozens of kryptonians at once. Weapon H doesn't even registers on that level.

Originally posted by leonidas
chulk's strength

Chulk was considered unworthy of the adamantium bonding process and was being mocked for his inability to tap into his true potential.

Safe to say Clay is stronger than that.

We also need to add Warpath on top.

i didn't equalize speed because the room would negate a lot of it. weapon h is say, 8' tall. add another 3' for his arms and likely 2' for the claws. supes CAN maneuver some, no doubt, but he has almost no room to do so. i don't think i've ever seen him use anything close to max speed in an area so enclosed. /shrug

But from Superman's perspective, Weapon H is not even moving

Imagine going to a park, go right next to a statue, and somebody makes a 15 x 15 glass box around you, and tells you to be careful not to get hit.

That's how Superman sees the fight.

Supes vibrates intangible whilst laughing.

Originally posted by abhilegend


He has straight up overpowered dozens of kryptonians at once. Weapon H doesn't even registers on that level.

Full powered kryptonians?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who has Weapon H beaten , who possesses speed on this level?

There's some truth here. Weap H hasn't really battled elite speedsters.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who has Weapon H beaten , who possesses speed on this level?

Leo, you might want to equalise speed as well. The only guy who can even attempt to catch up to Flashes fighting each other isn't getting cut by slower opponents, if he doesn't want to be, in a forum fight.

I dont even know why you responded to me with this question. I do not debate powerset, so you probably want to take this type of debating to someone else.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
There's some truth here. Weap H hasn't really battled elite speedsters.

'SOME' truth???????

https://i.postimg.cc/VNBvPmKh/51-ZFX-8-DJb-L-SX342.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
I dont even know why you responded to me with this question. I do not debate powerset, so you probably want to take this type of debating to someone else.

PIS is off in a forum. Forum rules state full capacity. Sorry you can't accept it, but it doesn't matter.

Weapon H wouldn't kill Superman. Yet, you're debating powerset and saying he would.

Please post all the times Weapon H kills heroes, especially with basic knowledge where he knows Superman is THE premier superhero on his Earth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'SOME' truth???????

https://i.postimg.cc/VNBvPmKh/51-ZFX-8-DJb-L-SX342.jpg
https://68.media.tumblr.com/37b00c4fc1d5d112155a0086ba2871a5/tumblr_msxfsgbLku1rel180o2_r2_500.gif

@phil. yeah i get it, but i'm not sure that's how he would fight. this gets into the whole cis issue vs full capacity vs on panel portrayals. even in a forum setting i don't see him instantly accelerating his senses. maybe after getting cut though. i dunno. this full capacity thing just doesn't reflect characters as they are intended to be portrayed. but that is a forum issue i guess. in character, i don't see superman seeing wh as a statue though.

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil. yeah i get it, but i'm not sure that's how he would fight. this gets into the whole cis issue vs full capacity vs on panel portrayals. even in a forum setting i don't see him instantly accelerating his senses. maybe after getting cut though. i dunno. this full capacity thing just doesn't reflect characters as they are intended to be portrayed. but that is a forum issue i guess. in character, i don't see superman seeing wh as a statue though.

For me, the Full capacity rule is enough. The Flash might not clock his opponent within the first millisecond in a comic, but it is a viable tactic because it is proven that he possesses that level of speed.

Superman also has that level (ish.....) of speed. Ergo.....

Moreover, we then have CIP. Even though a character has intelligence (Superman is DIRECTLY referenced), he holds back to protect civilians.

You don't have civvies in your OP.

Edit: and it's not like I'm saying he rips his opponents heads off or any out of character things like that. Merely that after getting cut the first time, he.....avoids the other slashes.

But why wouldn't he?
Let me put it this way.
Which person, in his position, wouldn't do that?
I'm dumber than Superman, and I know for sure that's the first thing I would do. Hell, the dumbest person on this forum would do the same.

If 'full capacity' doesn't mean to use literally one of the two basic abilities a character has , then it doesn't mean anything, and we treat them all like retards. I get it when we move on to crazy town , but this is the most basic level.

Originally posted by carver9
Full powered kryptonians?
Yes

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PIS is off in a forum. Forum rules state full capacity. Sorry you can't accept it, but it doesn't matter.

Weapon H wouldn't kill Superman. Yet, you're debating powerset and saying he would.

Please post all the times Weapon H kills heroes, especially with basic knowledge where he knows Superman is THE premier superhero on his Earth.

I dont debate like this. Dont understand why you keep coming at me with this. You should probably direct this at someone else who have a similar debating style. Not going in circles with you.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont debate like this. Dont understand why you keep coming at me with this. You should probably direct this at someone else who have a similar debating style. Not going in circles with you.
But you do though.

Your first post said Clay would cut him in half.

How is that not powerset debating? In character, Weapon H hasn't done this to ANY hero.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You're not implying that he would act in a way other than Superman would, right? I don't understand the question.

If I give a 8 year old superspeed, and I'd tell him to fight at "full capacity", I'd never hit him.

Is Superman dumber than an 8 year old?

In comics sometimes he is. So is everybody. In a forum.....

Yeah, on the forum, there are rules preventing that, and plot stupidity is specifically ignored.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You're not implying that he would act in a way other than Superman would, right?



Truer words were never spoken.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
https://68.media.tumblr.com/37b00c4fc1d5d112155a0086ba2871a5/tumblr_msxfsgbLku1rel180o2_r2_500.gif

https://i.imgur.com/TgiUrr1.gif

Originally posted by -K-M-
https://i.imgur.com/TgiUrr1.gif
Bahahahaha.
He kinda did say it that way. Dude was frothing at the mouth. Loved it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you do though.

Your first post said Clay would cut him in half.

How is that not powerset debating? In character, Weapon H hasn't done this to ANY hero.

Me saying he would chop him isnt debating powerset vs powerset, its new saying he would cut him. He has stabbed through heroes though. Wolverine is one of those heroes.

Originally posted by carver9
Me saying he would chop him isnt debating powerset vs powerset, its new saying he would cut him. He has stabbed through heroes though. Wolverine is one of those heroes.

Did he cut him in half? Scans.

Wolverine isn't nearly the hero Superman is. You're ignoring Weapon Hs character, and saying he's going for the killing blow on a hero who he knows has no HF. That's powerset debating.

Edit: and at the same time, Superman WOULDN'T attempt to dodge, and will let himself be chopped in half. Cut once, sure. Twice, three , four times? Come on.

Originally posted by leonidas
i didn't equalize speed because the room would negate a lot of it. weapon h is say, 8' tall. add another 3' for his arms and likely 2' for the claws. supes CAN maneuver some, no doubt, but he has almost no room to do so. i don't think i've ever seen him use anything close to max speed in an area so enclosed. /shrug

The problem is perception. Superman would perceive Weapon H almost frozen in time (think of the diner scene). As long as there is room to move around then it doesn't matter.

Anyhoo

Supes concedes the centre of the room to W. H.

Plays tag for a bit. Gets bored. Grabs the creep by the ankle at light speed and whirls around like a spinning top.

The room gets red real quick.

Superman keeps going until he's cut clean through leonidas's room with his undead adamantium claw thing.

And gives him a wedgie.

i think pr sees what i'm trying to say. in character, superman almost never--really NEVER--accelerates his senses. and we've seen him actively have to switch to hyper sense mode. i guess my question revolves more around what should be considered 'in character'. i would argue that 'in character' superman would NOT accelerate his senses--at least not immediately, in nearly any forum fight. how do we define 'in character'? by what is seen in comics of course. if he doesn't see people as statues in 99.999999% of cases, how can it be considered 'in character' for him to do so here? or better, how is it not OUT of character to suggest he WOULD see wh as a statue?

full capacity is only mitigated by cis in the forum. if we don't use cis as intended, then all we do is debate power sets. i would argue it isn't PIS or stupidity that prevents superman from seeing everyone as statues--it is habit gained from years interacting with normal people. and those interactions DEFINE his character, full capacity, IMO, gets abused here in the forum at the expense of on panel character.

meh, maybe i'm just getting old but it feels at times that we are more and more ignoring the clear depictions we see over and again in the very sources that we draw....everything from.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think pr sees what i'm trying to say. in character, superman almost never--really NEVER--accelerates his senses. and we've seen him actively have to switch to hyper sense mode. i guess my question revolves more around what should be considered 'in character'. i would argue that 'in character' superman would NOT accelerate his senses--at least not immediately, in nearly any forum fight. how do we define 'in character'? by what is seen in comics of course. if he doesn't see people as statues in 99.999999% of cases, how can it be considered 'in character' for him to do so here? or better, how is it not OUT of character to suggest he WOULD see wh as a statue?

full capacity is only mitigated by cis in the forum. if we don't use cis as intended, then all we do is debate power sets. i would argue it isn't PIS or stupidity that prevents superman from seeing everyone as statues--it is habit gained from years interacting with normal people. and those interactions DEFINE his character, full capacity, IMO, gets abused here in the forum at the expense of on panel character.

meh, maybe i'm just getting old but it feels at times that we are more and more ignoring the clear depictions we see over and again in the very sources that we draw....everything from.

Agreed.

And in the same note, I don't see Weapon H attempting a killing blow in the first attack.

So, match starts.

Weapon H out speeds Superman, slashes him.

Superman now knows what Weapon H can do with those gigantic metal claws that are nearly as long as Wolverine is tall (so.... metre long?) .

NOW, does he speed his perceptions up? Or IYO, he keeps on going?

You say it's not how it happens in comic fighting. But this isn't a comic fight.

@ds: i can get behind that, and i agree wh wouldn't go for a killing blow from the start. but he may get in a blow that incapacitates superman somewhat. maybe slows him down? but yes, once he realizes what's going on, it is absolutely reasonable to assume superman would speed up. go full hyper senses ala flash? not sure about that.... he might even start the match with a blitz--as far as that would go in this setting. i just disagree with phil's assessment that he would start the fight seeing wh as a statue when he very literally almost never, ever starts that way--or sees the world that way on a regular basis.

despite my....egging the thread on early, superman can of course win this fight. in this very small enclosed space though i do wonder if superman has any feats to support his use of i'm-unhittable-levels of speed. wh has ALL of weapon x's powers which includes super senses and at least a degree of superspeed himself as well, and we've seen logan can and has hit speedsters in the past. throw in the skill and hf here, and i don't think we can just ASSUME superman, in this scenario, can remain completely untouchable. /shrug

On paper, Superman would be cut in half by Weapon H if hit. But Weapon H, should be a statue to Superman.

Weapon H's claws f*cking Superman up is more likely than Superman operating at a pace where the world is frozen in time based on comic book track records. People are running a bit overboard here. I think Superman's speed will be used to trump Weapon H's superior offensive capabilities and keep him out of range, that's about it. It's like arguing Jane will spam the Motherstorm in every thread (Based on percentages, she's used it far more often compared to this level of speed for Superman).

BECAUSE Weapon H's claws can kill Superman, Superman is by nature more likely to use super-speed. As a result, I think this is a stalemate or I guess edge to Weapon H on most days.

Also, with an Adamantium Skeleton and Hulk's durability, Weapon H should be harder to put down than Juggernaut. Tbh, in a comic book penned by Pak, Weapon H would beat Hulk, Superman and Thor at the same time as he is Pak's current favourite character atm.

I am also convinced Pak is 5 years old. Wolverine + Hulk amalgmation? Smh.

Carver's wet dream.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think pr sees what i'm trying to say. in character, superman almost never--really NEVER--accelerates his senses. and we've seen him actively have to switch to hyper sense mode. i guess my question revolves more around what should be considered 'in character'. i would argue that 'in character' superman would NOT accelerate his senses--at least not immediately, in nearly any forum fight. how do we define 'in character'? by what is seen in comics of course. if he doesn't see people as statues in 99.999999% of cases, how can it be considered 'in character' for him to do so here? or better, how is it not OUT of character to suggest he WOULD see wh as a statue?

full capacity is only mitigated by cis in the forum. if we don't use cis as intended, then all we do is debate power sets. i would argue it isn't PIS or stupidity that prevents superman from seeing everyone as statues--it is habit gained from years interacting with normal people. and those interactions DEFINE his character, full capacity, IMO, gets abused here in the forum at the expense of on panel character.

meh, maybe i'm just getting old but it feels at times that we are more and more ignoring the clear depictions we see over and again in the very sources that we draw....everything from.

Superman and WW can perceive very fast objects (like bullets) 100% of the time.
If you write Superman with that level of perception all the time in a comic then you would have a problem with adversity (as most characters aren't fast).

Superman is not dumb (in character). If someone possess great strength with cutting weapons that can kill him then why would he choose not to use his speed and perception to avoid being hit? He would literally have to be dumb (which he's not). Character's do dumb shit in comics (contradicting their intelligence) because of the plot, not because of their character.

CIS is based off a character's actual intelligence and style of fighting (that does not contradict their intelligence).

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman and WW can perceive very fast objects (like bullets) 100% of the time.
If you write Superman with that level of perception all the time in a comic then you would have a problem with adversity (as most characters aren't fast).

Superman is not dumb (in character). If someone possess great strength with cutting weapons that can kill him then why would he choose not to use his speed and perception to avoid being hit? He would literally have to be dumb (which he's not). Character's do dumb shit in comics (contradicting their intelligence) because of the plot, not because of their character.

CIS is based off a character's actual intelligence and style of fighting (that does not contradict their intelligence).

Of all the posts in this thread that threatened to give me an aneurysm, this is the aneurysmst.

That's only h1 level though. You haven't seen him ramp it all the way up to a8 levels.

Originally posted by leonidas
superman would NOT accelerate his senses--at least not immediately, in nearly any forum fight. Why?

Why would Superman want to get hit?

Would you let yourself get hit?

Would anybody, on this entire forum, ever not use his superspeed to not get hit?

I'm not arguing that he lobotomizes him through the brain, or IMPS him, or vibrates his hand inside his heart, or BFRs him by changing his vibrations. I'm not even arguing he vibrates intangible.

Why doesn't he simply use the most low-level usage of his abilities, the one everybody on this planet Earth would know to use. and neutralize the opponent, that he specifically has basic knowledge and has to beat, at full capacity ?

Why are we treating him like he's retarded?

Scratch that. I think retarded is too weak of a word. That's just around 70 IQ. He'd have to be a single digit.

I mean if we can't agree that "dodging is good. getting hit is bad." in regards, to Superman, well...

Originally posted by leonidas
in character, superman almost never--really NEVER--accelerates his senses. and we've seen him actively have to switch to hyper sense mode. This is a faulty premise.

He always perceives and reacts to events that takes place in fractions of time while he is not "accelerated"

It's why, even while he is in "normal" speed, he is able to hear bullets, react, travel to the other side of the town, and catch it

It's why he sees Barry passing by him, without his 'perceptions' switched on:
https://imgur.com/a/ZkECHSq

It's not a switch, it's what he puts in focus.

If the numerous examples are not enough, remember that scene of him "switching" to superspeed against Barry? The "hyper sense" mode? I'll let the writer explain it:



Even IF Superman is below-retarded and doesn't start the match seeing him as a statue, the moment a threat emerges , he...simply perceives and reacts to it, and switches on to him being a statue.

I legitimately feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Do we really have to make Superman a goose IQ in order to make threads fair?

Originally posted by Phil
But from Superman's perspective, Weapon H is not even moving

Imagine going to a park, go right next to a statue, and somebody makes a 15 x 15 glass box around you, and tells you to be careful not to get hit.

That's how Superman sees the fight. Weapon H holds his arms out and starts spinning in a circle as fast as he can. Similar to this except his claws would be straight out:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Spinning_Dancer.gif


This effectively shields him from any attacks Superman can think of. Super-speed is meaningless next to the power of spinny-spins and stabby-stabs.

Is that supposed to be one of dem dere things dat spins both ways? Because there's no way it spins the other way.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


I am also convinced Pak is 5 years old. Wolverine + Hulk amalgmation? Smh. Pak is a genius, this is the character I always wanted but didn't know I did, it took a genius to think of it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Weapon H holds his arms out and starts spinning in a circle as fast as he can.


Superman calmly inhales all the air in the room.

W. H.

All that physical effort

And absolutely no Oxy 2 for him breathe

I pity the fool.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman and WW can perceive very fast objects (like bullets) 100% of the time.
If you write Superman with that level of perception all the time in a comic then you would have a problem with adversity (as most characters aren't fast).

Superman is not dumb (in character). If someone possess great strength with cutting weapons that can kill him then why would he choose not to use his speed and perception to avoid being hit? He would literally have to be dumb (which he's not). Character's do dumb shit in comics (contradicting their intelligence) because of the plot, not because of their character.

CIS is based off a character's actual intelligence and style of fighting (that does not contradict their intelligence).

Spiderman and Captain America can see bullets in slow motion as well and Wolverine and Daredevil can still tag them. Debating powerset completely diminish the use of scans.

Originally posted by carver9
Spiderman and Captain America can see bullets in slow motion as well and Wolverine and Daredevil can still tag them. Debating powerset completely diminish the use of scans.

What about Weapon H? Base your reasoning on comics. What speedsters has he fought?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


And in the same note, I don't see Weapon H attempting a killing blow in the first attack.



You do make sense.

Even when forced to fight the Hulk, he cut Banner's face with the blunt side of the claws (only their tips are sharp there), instead of doing it properly and chopping his skull to pieces.

Weapon X does have Domino's luck ability. And is possibly supersonic with having Pak Warpath's abilities(deflected bullets back at the shooter at least). He hasn't beat a speedster on Kal's level, but I'd guess that is where arguments for him tagging Supes would begin.

Very few feats to draw from, so not saying he definitely can or can't. He isn't just Wolverine+Hulk though.

^

H*

Imo, every Superman thread should be 'speed equalized' because it's boring otherwise, unless there's a Flash/Reverse Flash in there. It's like telepathy, but worse, because you don't have "resistance to speed". As an opponent, you're just...not starting the fight.

Either that, or we treat his actions in a fight as not making any sense, and something that no one would ever do.

I'm guessing none of you lot game online, lmao.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm guessing none of you lot game online, lmao. Ha, why?

Nobody has threatened to kill someone's family or called anyone an N-word Jim yet.

Originally posted by Philosophia
if we can't agree that "dodging is good. getting hit is bad." in regards, to Superman, well ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16842989&highlight=userid%3A110322#post16842989

I suppose you'll be perfectly fine in thinking Superman does not, in character, take unnecessary hits. Especially not if he has reason to think the opponent is strong and dangerous. And proved it by besting several of his Justice League teammates.

You'll be able to convince yourself of that for a very long time.


Just don't slip up and actually read any well-known Superman comic where he fights against a Hulk-like opponent.

Let alone any Hulk-like opponents with claws, of all #%^*ing things ...


Doomsday.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367039_image.jpg

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367040_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367041_image.jpg




Konvikt.


https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367032_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367033_image.jpg

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367034_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/40367035_image.jpg

Welcome back.

The sigils have been broken.

Luciferian age is upon us.

Uh-oh, bluewater is now posting images instead of attaching them. He has evolved in his long period of training!

Edit: but good showing with a character with claws as long as...oh wait.

If THAT is what you call long, bluewater.....

I bet carver is fuming.

"I just learned to explode scans, and this Conjuring Wannabe is thumbnailing them?"

https://media.giphy.com/media/vhhRVdMLasM3C/giphy.gif

and i'm not actually trying to drive phil crazy but it seems incredibly odd to me that we are so completely--and so often--willingly disregarding the very thing that gives us everything we ever talk about on here--namely the comics.

again, i would NOT say superman was dumb for deciding to take a hit--even a huge hit. he's been hit, literally, 1000s upon 1000s of times, and it rarely means anything to him. it is rare in comics where he actually EXPRESSES pain, and when he does, it is usually accompanied by sheer surprise. he doesn't 'not dodge' because he's dumb--at least not any dumber than we are for not jumping out of the way of an ant crawling on the sidewalk. the ant still hits me but do i care? i'm pretty sure this mentality has been expressed by superman on panel more than once. THAT mentality is every bit as reasonable as calling PIS in.....almost every single one of his appearances? is it really more reasonable to ignore almost every single showing than it is to accept an alternative explanation to PIS?

honest question for everyone, mods included: how often DOES something have to happen for it to be considered IN CHARACTER? phil and others say that wh should be a statue. in 99.999999% of his appearances, superman definitively does NOT see the world in that way. so how can it possibly be considered IN CHARACTER for him to see the world that way in a forum match?

it seems to me (i may well be alone here) that by saying yes, he can legit, and in character, see wh as a statue, that we are simply and blatantly ignoring the vast, vast VAST majority of superman's showings. wouldn't that disparity be enough to say that seeing wh that way WOULD and SHOULD be considered out of character? if not that, then....what, aside from saying superman tries to kill him, WOULD be ooc?

as i've said, there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

maybe i'm over thinking. lol but it feels like falling back on PIS all the time (which happens...a LOT here) really doesn't take into account the character of the character. it feels like the easy way to go and that route devolves quickly into power set battles. there are other forums for that--we usually make fun of them.

so, where is the line between full capacity and character? where do we draw the line between a tiny fraction of high feats and what is considered out of character? legit questions. and my 'hidden agenda' is really not so hidden. i'd just really like to see more, and better discussion in the forum. maybe looking more closely at what is and isn't out of character is a way to engender some of that.

end text wall.

(btw, good catch style--domino's luck power would almost guarantee wh gets in some hits, despite the fact that he is standing still or spinning in circles. :up

Originally posted by StyleTime
Weapon X does have Domino's luck ability. And is possibly supersonic with having Pak Warpath's abilities(deflected bullets back at the shooter at least). He hasn't beat a speedster on Kal's level, but I'd guess that is where arguments for him tagging Supes would begin.

Very few feats to draw from, so not saying he definitely can or can't. He isn't just Wolverine+Hulk though.

Wait wait, he has Domino's luck ability AND Warpath's abilities? Can he fly to?

Well, my take on this is.....Why are they fighting?

I'm not saying Superman enters this match bloodlusted, thinking Weapon H has just killed Lois. What I am saying is he enters the match determined to fight. He's not bored, he doesn't care about alienation, whatever. He's here to slug it out, he's here to win, he's not here to talk his opponent down or whatever.

He gets slashed (and this is ASSUMING as the blades pierce his skin, he doesn't flinch or realise he's getting slashed, whatever).

Then what? He now knows Weapon H can hurt him. As you say, he's not stupid.

What he do?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wait wait, he has Domino's luck ability AND Warpath's abilities? Can he fly to?

It's not been shown...He's meant to have all of Weapon Xs powers. Whether they stack or not is anybody's guess. He hasn't shown Domino's powers yet afaik, nor has he flown, but if we ARE assuming he has them, then we'll have to start sharing feats I guess.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16842989&highlight=userid%3A110322#post16842989

I suppose you'll be perfectly fine in thinking Superman does not, in character, take unnecessary hits. Especially not if he has reason to think the opponent is strong and dangerous. And proved it by besting several of his Justice League teammates.

You'll be able to convince yourself of that for a very long time.


Just don't slip up and actually read any well-known Superman comic where he fights against a Hulk-like opponent.

Let alone any Hulk-like opponents with claws, of all #%^*ing things ...


Doomsday.


Konvikt. or ya know...


https://i.postimg.cc/762psLKG/0.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not been shown...He's meant to have all of Weapon Xs powers. Whether they stack or not is anybody's guess. He hasn't shown Domino's powers yet afaik, nor has he flown, but if we ARE assuming he has them, then we'll have to start sharing feats I guess.



He definitely has Lady Deathstrike's adamantium nanobots stuff.

Otherwise he wouldn't be capable of switching between his Hulk and normal forms. Or popping his claws with his wrist bent. Or forming spikes, etc.

https://tinyurl.com/y5sapy6m

My question is....Do people think Superman starts the match as what, human level in speed?

Why does that only affect Superman? I mean, Weapon H interacts with his wife, his kids. He doesn't live life at superspeed (assuming he has any). Yet, he starts the match.....At full capacity?

Why?

Leo, I understand where you're coming from but what you're talking about and what this is are two different circumstances. The ant-analogy doesn't work, because Weapon H is not an ant, and Superman knows it . If it were Luke Cage, I'd agree. He'd have zero, and I do mean zero reasons, to willingly take a hit from a Hulk-level being with claws, when the most basic ability in existence is his, on several orders of magnitude north.

None of these apply, on the forum, either:


He's not interacting with anybody other than Weapon H, who he needs to fight and beat. He's not going to feel alienated in the fight with Weapon H. He's not going to feel bored in the fight with Weapon H. He is not taking punches so that others don't have to, unless there's weaker heroes around him, which there aren't here. He is not here to not use his super-speed, so that the story isn't over in a page . He's not taking punches because he's "confident". What's next, threads start with Superman letting the opponents have free strikes? ....

Those are all story-related.

He is here, in this thread for one, very specific reason - to win. At full capacity.

As I've said - his level of speed is broken, for the forum. There's no logical reasons why not only they'd allow themselves to get hit, but why anybody would. We'd have to treat them as legitimate retards. And instead of building a non-existent story, it should simply be equalized, and that's that.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i've said, there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

maybe i'm over thinking. lol but it feels like falling back on PIS all the time (which happens...a LOT here) really doesn't take into account the character of the character. it feels like the easy way to go and that route devolves quickly into power set battles. there are other forums for that--we usually make fun of them.



I agree with you, but I'd add that the 'legit reasons to explain Superman's behaviour' seem like an unnecessary requirement here, and a red herring. If Superman does act that way in 99% of his fights, then the presumption is that he'll act that way here, and it's up to debaters to defend/rebut that presumption (like Darksaint is doing in this thread: sure, Superman doesn't start off fighting a certain way, but maybe that changes within the fight).

It doesn't make sense that the forum has to 'rationalize' the way that we know Superman behaves, and if it can't be rationalized within the logic of the comics, then we replace Supe's fighting style (flawed as it may be) with a forum computer.

Because, as we all know, another explanation for his behaviour, equally strong as the ones you've proposed, is that he's in a f*cking comic book and doesn't act with the logic and fight-or-flight response of a human being. That fact/reality doesn't render all of his fights PIS. And PIS, imo, is a narrow term used too broadly too often. PIS is meant to try and stop silly instances of jobbing from tanking a character's overall forum weight.

Originally posted by Smurph
It doesn't make sense that the forum has to 'rationalize' the way that we know Superman behaves, and if it can't be rationalized within the logic of the comics, then we replace Supe's fighting style (flawed as it may be) with a forum computer. Saying that Superman doesn't want to get hit by Weapon H's claws, so he'll use his speed to render attacks null, is 'replacing Superman's fighting style with a forum computer'?

The forum computer's processing ability must be massive, since it increases Superman's battle logic to that of a kindergartner.

I'll wait for the mods, to see how devoid of any kind of logic we should treat fights.

Galan, Pr?

I want to agree with Phil, but what about the Damage/Superman fight? Did he allow Damage to repeatedly tag him? There has to be a medium, or people will begin arguing from a purely power set perspective, ex. Hulk does planet crushing thunder claps at the start of battle, or Jane Thor unleashes the Mother Storm out the gate, or Black Bolt lets out a reality tearing shout as his first attack, or... etc.

Same. wink1

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My question is....Do people think Superman starts the match as what, human level in speed?

Why does that only affect Superman? I mean, Weapon H interacts with his wife, his kids. He doesn't live life at superspeed (assuming he has any). Yet, he starts the match.....At full capacity?

Why?

Post bump.

Why the double standards? When he fights Hulk, even though the Hulk interacts in 99.99999% of the time at human level speeds when talking to Betty and Rick, nobody here talks about him 'switching gears' when in a fight.

Nobody talks about Wolverine or Spiderman switching gears, even though these guys are fast enough to see bullets in slow motion or whatever. If that was truly the case, theyedalso be bored out of their skulls.

Yet in Superman's case, he starts the match at Jimmy Olsen Lois Lane speeds. For reasons. If people bring comic showings up, then sure, but let's keep comparisons fair.

Originally posted by Stoic
I want to agree with Phil, but what about the Damage/Superman fight? Did he allow Damage to repeatedly tag him? There has to be a medium, or people will begin arguing from a purely power set perspective, ex. Hulk does planet crushing thunder claps at the start of battle, or Jane Thor unleashes the Mother Storm out the gate, or Black Bolt lets out a reality tearing shout as his first attack, or... etc.

Wasn't that Batman's plan to delay Damage as much as possible?

My belief is that if a slower person tags a faster person, it's ALWAYS PIS.

Let's reverse it. Batman (you all knew this was coming lol). He tags speedsters all the time.

Is it PIS? If yes, then we stop. Assuming there's no context like the speedster is sick or whatever.

If no? Then Batman is either A that fast or B the speedster is that slow. Or C, the Carver level argument which is that Batman is strong against speedsters, like Lanterns are weak against bricks and speedsters are weak against bricks, whilst street tiers are strong against bricks like some retarded Pokemon game.

Then what? What happens when random mugger #4748 tags Batman? Does that mean he's faster than Batman, and thus, speedster level?

As outlined in the forum rules:
Originally posted by DigitalMark
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Superman has well-documented superspeed at his disposal, therefore he would be able to use it in a forum setting unless otherwise specified in the OP(just like the Flash example cited in the above rule.)

Lots of things to consider. Lots.

Also, is it just me or does speed seem to be treated differently from the other stats like strength for example?
mhmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Post bump.

Why the double standards? When he fights Hulk, even though the Hulk interacts in 99.99999% of the time at human level speeds when talking to Betty and Rick, nobody here talks about him 'switching gears' when in a fight.

Nobody talks about Wolverine or Spiderman switching gears, even though these guys are fast enough to see bullets in slow motion or whatever. If that was truly the case, theyedalso be bored out of their skulls.

Yet in Superman's case, he starts the match at Jimmy Olsen Lois Lane speeds. For reasons. If people bring comic showings up, then sure, but let's keep comparisons fair.

i don't get where you're claim of double standards comes in....? what is wh doing here that he HASN'T done in all his appearances....? i even said you're right, he likely wouldn't go for a critical blow, so, not sure what you're getting at. likewise with spidey and logan. not sure what rarely used ability they enter matches automatically using. and people DO argue that batman taking down people well beyond him is no longer PIS because it happens so often. to play devil's advocate, even if someone did argue for an ability like you're saying for spiderman, he'd be more dependent on it since he can be killed a whole lot easier than superman can be.

anyway, if we use full capacity, in the sense that hulk is a statue, why do we not simply argue highest end feats? seems silly not to, honestly. we say we leave out outlying feats because they go against the average, but clearly the idea of averages doesn't mean anything when it comes to speed, since in virtually every single appearance superman has ever made he does not use this level of speed. i guess i simply don't understand the distinction. the dos arc was a perfect example of superman fighting in character and amping his stats as needed.

some of you are saying "leo don't like it, leo want to change!" i ONLY want it to change because as is, the definition of full capacity leads to some terrible, repeated discussion. and isn't discussion what we want...?

anyway:

i still haven't got an answer to this. in reality, (and i am NOT trying to backseat mod, at all, nor am i trying to pi$$ anyone off) there really aren't many people left as part of this forum, so is it wrong to at least look at the way the rules have been defined up until now and perhaps consider if those are really still the best ways to look at things? shrug

Leo is making a lot of good points here.

Superman has infinite strength and hits Hulk with Flash level speed.

Stalemate. Hulk with his adamantium hard durability stands in one spot and tank Superman punches. Every second past, he gets more durable and punch the air so hard that time reverse to repeat the process. Adamantium hard Hulk for the win.

after galan posted that bit about full capacity, i checked out the rules--haven't done so in a while tbh. i was....surprised that there is nothing in them that defines what exactly "IN CHARACTER" means. there is mention of CIS, but nothing about what DEFINES a character. the more i think about it, the more that seems really strange to me. is that something you mods might consider including? maybe a good solid definition of just what "IN CHARACTER" means would force us to look at some tired old battles in new ways?

Originally posted by leonidas
after galan posted that bit about full capacity, i checked out the rules--haven't done so in a while tbh. i was....surprised that there is nothing in them that defines what exactly "IN CHARACTER" means. there is mention of CIS, but nothing about what DEFINES a character. the more i think about it, the more that seems really strange to me. is that something you mods might consider including? maybe a good solid definition of just what "IN CHARACTER" means would force us to look at some tired old battles in new ways?

At some point, common sense should apply, imo.

If we use Superman as an example,.in character generally means he won't kill, or make like Batman with the plot devices.


Absorbing Man won't be particularly intelligent with his powers.

Bruce Wayne won't use a revolver.

Spider-Man won't use his full strength against a street.

Ect ect.

Superman goes into this battle with working knowledge of his opponent. So at a minimum he'd know that WH is really strong/durable, and has really sharp claws that are nigh-indestructible. He'd also know that the fight itself is restricted to a really confined space that maximizes WH's lethality.

That said, while Superman may not blitz every opponent he comes across in a comic(because that wouldn't make for very interesting battles for the RW readers), we also know he's not stupid. Thus logic dictates that Superman would, at the very least, try to evade(or possibly even blitz) WH in a forum battle, if he felt that WH posed a legitimate threat to him. Hence the use of superspeed here.

Imo, it seems more illogical to assume that Superman wouldn't use superspeed against WH in a forum battle if he felt threatened by him. I mean, if you know your opponent has the ability to injure/kill you, and you have the perception, reaction, and overall speed to avoid their attacks, why wouldn't you use it to save yourself?

...Now that doesn't mean Superman will melt WH's head off in the first picosecond of the battle. That would definitely be out of character.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, if we use full capacity, in the sense that hulk is a statue, why do we not simply argue highest end feats? seems silly not to, honestly. My last two cents on this, full capacity =/= highest end feats. One is about effectiveness and the other is about 'power level' .

CIS, as far as I know, was for characters not to act as they're not. i.e. for Superman to decapitate people in flight or blitz them into paste, or for Batman to throw an exploding batarang at Daredevil and plaster him over the pavement. It's less about acting irrational in their tactics , which is covered in the no-PIS part.

Pretty much.

The difference between Wally West and Creel, is we have examples that prove Wally isn't an idiot with his powers. So, there's some other reason Captain Boomerang gets anywhere with him.

Creel has no such showings like that. He's simply an idiot.

Originally posted by Galan007
Superman goes into this battle with working knowledge of his opponent. So at a minimum he'd know that WH is really strong/durable, and has really sharp claws that are nigh-indestructible. He'd also know that the fight itself is restricted to a really confined space that maximizes WH's lethality.

That said, while Superman may not blitz every opponent he comes across in a comic(because that wouldn't make for very interesting battles for the RW readers), we also know he's not stupid. Thus logic dictates that Superman would, at the very least, try to evade(or possibly even blitz) WH in a forum battle, if he felt that WH posed a legitimate threat to him. Hence the use of superspeed here.

Imo, it seems more illogical to assume that Superman wouldn't use superspeed against WH in a forum battle if he felt threatened by him. I mean, if you know your opponent has the ability to injure/kill you, and you have the perception, reaction, and overall speed to avoid their attacks, why wouldn't you use it to save yourself?

...Now that doesn't mean Superman will melt WH's head off in the first picosecond of the battle. That would definitely be out of character.

Wouldn't this apply to Surfer vs Superman as well though. Surfer gains basic knowledge of the character, hes a threat. Why not just go intangible, create clone, black holes, etc... to prevent himself from being injured during combat. This type of logic would make battle board easy for someone like Surfer.

Because honestly, Surfer isn't a fighter, and Superman is. Same reason many put him over J'onn.


One certainly can argue Norrin has the ability to beat just about anyone. Many do.

The fact is, in comics, he simply isn't Thor or Gladiator.

That doesnt have a single thing to do with what I said.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't that Batman's plan to delay Damage as much as possible?

My belief is that if a slower person tags a faster person, it's ALWAYS PIS.

Let's reverse it. Batman (you all knew this was coming lol). He tags speedsters all the time.

Is it PIS? If yes, then we stop. Assuming there's no context like the speedster is sick or whatever.

If no? Then Batman is either A that fast or B the speedster is that slow. Or C, the Carver level argument which is that Batman is strong against speedsters, like Lanterns are weak against bricks and speedsters are weak against bricks, whilst street tiers are strong against bricks like some retarded Pokemon game.

Then what? What happens when random mugger #4748 tags Batman? Does that mean he's faster than Batman, and thus, speedster level?

That really wasn't what I was getting at. Superman, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Thor, or any other character that you'd like to mention has a certain way that they fight consistently. You, wouldn't for instance claim that Mike Tyson fights like Bruce Lee. There has to be a cut off point for those that argue the full capacity rule, because they begin to drop character completely, and wander into the CIS free zone that has their character of choice throwing life threatening punches. Like I said, can you imagine Carver coming in and making a solid full capacity claim for the Hulk? Speedster or Flying brick would automatically be hit if we used the Hulk's most powerful reality warping, planet bustin thunder clap.

What about Jane Thor's Mother Storm? What character would escape these out of character attacks? For the record, I do not for one second believe that Weapon H wins this. Shit I can't wait to read Marvel's explanation on how he's even able to attain Hulk size with the Adamantium lacing his bones, but whatever lol.

Surfer isnt dumb. He gets basic knowledge of Superman. Why not just go intangible, create clones, power absorption, soul suck, create black holes, matter manipulate. Endless possibilities. He has done everything I've stated and again, he isnt the smartest but he isnt dumb either.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer isnt dumb. He gets basic knowledge of Superman. Why not just go intangible, create clones, power absorption, soul suck, create black holes, matter manipulate. Endless possibilities. He has done everything I've stated and again, he isnt the smartest but he isnt dumb either.

Do you even know what they're arguing about?

Originally posted by Stoic
Shit I can't wait to read Marvel's explanation on how he's even able to attain Hulk size with the Adamantium lacing his bones, but whatever lol.
Nanos.
That's how he gets away with this.




Also...
After this thread, I'm now confident that one would need more than big bang level power to beat Surfer. Otherwise....






Full capacity is exhilarating!!!

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you even know what they're arguing about?

I started the debate.

I feel like if I clarified my earlier position, it would just seem like I'm arguing with Galan, so I'm not going to go in to too much detail other than saying this: A character's personality still matters. They're not powersets or author avatars for posters to inhabit to the point that they're not the actual character anymore. Please keep that in mind when posting.

@celey, leo, cdtm, and Stoic (and to a certain extent, Pr):


Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Lots of things to consider. Lots.

Also, is it just me or does speed seem to be treated differently from the other stats like strength for example?
mhmm

Let's say I put you naked in a dark room (bear with me). Completely pitch black, you can't see anything.

I lightly touch the back of your leg with a red hot poker. You instinctively jerk away.

Are you able to control your speed then?

In this thread, Superman, the guy who is able to recognise Flash as he is outrunning Death past him, would be unable to react to meter long knives coming straight for him. OK.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't get where you're claim of double standards comes in....?
Loads of other characters are speedsters and so, see the world in slow motion. Yet, we don't say they have to 'switch gears'.


Hit a speedster on Kal's level. Wolverine was used because....reasons.


Speed. We give them their speed levels, yet somehow, Superman doesn't have his. What speed level does Superman enter a forum match with?


Full capacity means he has access to one of his most basic powers....not sure why this is so hard to understand?



You are arguing that in character, Superman lets himself be stabbed. Not once, but repeatedly. And won't do a thing about it.

Originally posted by Stoic
That really wasn't what I was getting at. Superman, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Thor, or any other character that you'd like to mention has a certain way that they fight consistently. You, wouldn't for instance claim that Mike Tyson fights like Bruce Lee. There has to be a cut off point for those that argue the full capacity rule, because they begin to drop character completely, and wander into the CIS free zone that has their character of choice throwing life threatening punches. Like I said, can you imagine Carver coming in and making a solid full capacity claim for the Hulk? Speedster or Flying brick would automatically be hit if we used the Hulk's most powerful reality warping, planet bustin thunder clap.
It's not changing Superman's style of fighting, though.

It's literally avoiding a set of giant knives slashing at your belly/head. I'm not saying he's using his speed to start doing mystical space ninjutsu, even though I can - I'm saying he's instinctively jerking away or avoiding hits.

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you even know what they're arguing about?
I don't think he does. Bentley and I had the first posts on it:

Originally posted by Bentley
Supes use his super speed to make Weapon H stab his own chest. And then makes his head bounce like a basketball against the ground at relativistic speeds.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who has Weapon H beaten , who possesses speed on this level?

Leo, you might want to equalise speed as well. The only guy who can even attempt to catch up to Flashes fighting each other isn't getting cut by slower opponents, if he doesn't want to be, in a forum fight.

Full Capacity =/= ALL POWAH TO THE MAX. Superman doesn't enter the cage and start singing people out of existence - even though he has the 0.00001% of the time where he used it.

THAT is what you lot are all thinking Phildo Galan and I are arguing.

No.

Go back to my instinctive knee jerk reaction scenario. I have somehow managed to strike first, with my red hot poker. You jerk away (maybe you even do so before it touches your skin). Unlike strength where you can control it, or intelligence, or whatever....you jerk away.

Now imagine there's light in the room. You see me, a human level guy, coming at you with a red hot poker. Do you wait until I hit you?

I mean, full powah on means I can do all manner of things, right? I could wrestle it out of you, do a spinning tornado kick, headbutt you, kick you in the groin, whatever. Change my fighting style and beg for mercy on the ground. Piss myself in fear. All valid tactics.

But the main first tactic, is I avoid getting hit.

My understanding of Weapon H is that he's basically Cho Hulk, but with adamantium claws and the powers of a few other people? With that in mind, my view is basically this:

Superman will get hit at some point (even if it's just at the start), but not because he's slow. It'll be because he'll allow it to happen.

It just won't make any difference unless Domino's power kicks in.

He has no feats with Domino's power though. Just saying.

It's funny how one side is arguing 'based on comics' and have nothing to show for Weapon H using Warpath's flight or Domino's luck powers, or speed, or anything beyond he's super strong and has claws ......

Oh okay, discard that from my post then.

Originally posted by Stoic
Shit I can't wait to read Marvel's explanation on how he's even able to attain Hulk size with the Adamantium lacing his bones, but whatever lol.

It was already explained.

Lady Deathstrike's adamantium nanobots, which allow her to extend her limbs and claws (among other abilities), are present in Hulkverine.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Nobody talks about Wolverine or Spiderman switching gears, even though these guys are fast enough to see bullets in slow motion or whatever. If that was truly the case, they'd also be bored out of their skulls.



They do, actually. Spider-Man has his "blitz" and "adrenaline" modes.
Wolverine has his "Berzerker Rage".
And Wolverine used to get so bored he would sometimes pick fights with local merchants:


https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368277_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368278_image.jpg

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368279_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368280_image.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Why the double standards? When he fights Hulk, even though the Hulk interacts in 99.99999% of the time at human level speeds when talking to Betty and Rick, nobody here talks about him 'switching gears' when in a fight.

Yet in Superman's case, he starts the match at Jimmy Olsen Lois Lane speeds. For reasons. If people bring comic showings up, then sure, but let's keep comparisons fair.




Hulk's "gears" process on a level even HE isn't normally fully aware of, as Amadeus Cho pointed out in this now relatively famous scene:

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/40368233_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/40368234_image.jpg

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/40368235_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/40368236_image.jpg

And how does that apply to a fight? His gamma maths is running to save innocents and civilians.....Doesn't say anything about him using it to fight.

In any case, Superman also has showings where he is shown to constantly process things at high speed, yet is ignored because 'of the majority' of his showings.

In short, you've proved my point about double standards. Hulk has that one showing in his 50 ish years of showings. And you apply it as gospel.

Why not Superman?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
or ya know...


https://i.postimg.cc/762psLKG/0.jpg

This made so sense because DD already evolved against intangible beings. Look what he did to Radiant in their rematch.

That assumes the method of intangibility is the same..... tbf I don't know how MMH does it.

Originally posted by SquallX
This made so sense because DD already evolved against intangible beings. Look what he did to Radiant in their rematch. yeah,DD already had smashing MMH's phase power,WW states that DD "found some way around his phase powers"
https://i.imgur.com/7DjNUgI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/amUM6a4.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Wouldn't this apply to Surfer vs Superman as well though. Surfer gains basic knowledge of the character, hes a threat. Why not just go intangible, create clone, black holes, etc... to prevent himself from being injured during combat. This type of logic would make battle board easy for someone like Surfer. You're acting like most people don't already take Surfer's powers to the max in almost every thread he's in... Same with Hulk, Flash, Sentry, Thor, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know why we would assume that a base power, like speed, would be completely off the table in a match like this..? Especially when SO many leaps are being made for WH here without any hesitation.

Originally posted by SquallX
This made so sense because DD already evolved against intangible beings. Look what he did to Radiant in their rematch. That's not intangibility, imo. That's superspeed. Superman is leaving an afterimage.

"Superman uses his basic power of super speed to not get hit if he doesn't need to"

"OMG FULL CAPACITY SURFER CLONES"

Some posters are hopeless.

Originally posted by SquallX
This made so sense because DD already evolved against intangible beings. Look what he did to Radiant in their rematch. Different Doomsday.

H/P Doomsday died at the hands of Imperiex.

Doomsday Rex is a different version, rebuilt from kryptonian DNA.

Yeah.

I'm really not sure how anything I said regarding Superman using his speed for basic self-preservation is getting twisted into stuff like this:
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Also...
After this thread, I'm now confident that one would need more than big bang level power to beat Surfer. Otherwise....



Full capacity is exhilarating!!! But I digress...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He has no feats with Domino's power though. Just saying.

It's funny how one side is arguing 'based on comics' and have nothing to show for Weapon H using Warpath's flight or Domino's luck powers, or speed, or anything beyond he's super strong and has claws ......

He has used Dominos power though.

i sent messages to phil and ds already, maybe i should have sent to galan too. i'm really not trying to stir sh!t up but i find the discussion very interesting. i was sort of fumbling around trying to make a clear point, but i think i finally figured it out after reading some of this.

no one--at least not me--is definitely standing there willing to be stabbed. i don't think it would be out of the question however--not because he was willing to be stabbed, but rather because he may very think he wouldn't be hurt. if, as has been brought up, we use basic knowledge, he would know nothing at all about wh since the public at-large doesn't even he exists.

by the same token, i'm unsure wh would even attack with his claws at the outset. he WOULD know more about superman here though, and that would be an advantage. i also stated in the OP that we assume wh has the full range of powers he is potentially supposed to have.

ANYWAY--my overall point: on kmc we're supposed to argue the CHARACTERS, not the power sets. IMHO, i think we should then FOCUS on character. i really do think we should define IN-CHARACTER, clearly. my opinion on what should define IN CHARACTER? whatever it is they are most likely to do in a battle BASED ON COMICS. REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS. as i've said, i think PIS can be explained in many cases.

that would mean superman would never start a battle seeing anyone as a statue. likewise, flash doesn't start fights at lightspeed. why? because in comics they don't. can they alter the way their powers are used as a battle progresses and in response to attacks? OF COURSE. would superman get cut here, then start to use his speed more effectively? of course. would he suddenly see wh as a statue? debatable but maybe. would ss enter a battle intangible and opening black holes behind peoples' eyes? certainly not, nor would he be likely to do so at ANY point in a match. maybe not even if he were about to die.

this approach would also still leave room for PIS. superman still isn't getting ko'd by a gas station.... but it would heavily MITIGATE the need to rely on PIS and allow for a more....balanced and comic-based/comic-oriented style of battle/debate. at least imo. i could be wrong of course. it would AT LEAST prevent some of the haxx abilities from being exploited in arguments.

at the end of the day, i think if we claim to be character-based in our approach, then shouldn't we focus MORE on character, and less on PIS and "powers"? a clear definition for IN CHARACTER would really help imo.

My problem with this particular thread is the assumption that WH has access to the full range of his abilities taken to their absolute max(even though we've never seen it on panel), but Superman won't even use his speed defensively for some reason.

Who said that though?

Browse back a few pages.

Originally posted by leonidas
would superman get cut here, then start to use his speed more effectively? of course. would he suddenly see wh as a statue? debatable but maybe. would ss enter a battle intangible and opening black holes behind peoples' eyes? certainly not, nor would he be likely to do so at ANY point in a match.

The problem that I is that we're using something that is common sense , and it's somehow not obvious that's what he would do, when it takes the minimum of intelligence. It is, quite literally, the most basic usage of power. It would be the equivalent of Surfer keeping the distance against Hulk by use his board maneuverability.

Surfer opening black holes in people's brains , would be the equivalent of Superman listening to multiversal harmonics and counter-frequency-ing people out of existence. And Superman has actually done it.

Surfer transmuting opponents thread, for example] would be closer to Superman starting to lobotomize opponents with his heat vision .

They are not the equivalent of Superman thinking "I better not get touched", and then using his basic, base power of "I'm fast" to not do so. Nobody is arguing that he scans him with X-Ray and starts a speedblitz pressure point fest .

etc.

There's lines that we draw .

I think the most simple way to put this, is we should always ask "would a 10 year old fight this way?"

If the answer is yes, then that's the bare minimum the character would do.

And then we can move on from there, and apply what the characters knows and can do and argue for it.

But we must agree on a baseline , otherwise we have no starting point.

And, as I have said before - speed is basic, and it is broken. If it was a complex part of a versatile powerset, it would be easier to argue against. If it was something that could be resisted, it would be easier to argue against. Even moreso, when we're only talking about "not get hit" - none of the vibrate intangible/invisible/speedblitzs into paste" stuff.

But it's not. And it can't.

And we're left with threads in which logic has to be taken to the river and drowned, in order to make it fair.

Originally posted by carver9
He has used Dominos power though.

OK.

What has he done with it?

What speed feats does he have?

I asked that question on page 1, and NOBODY has answered me. Are we crossing feats and taking Domino's highest luck feats, stacking it onto Wolverine's highest agility feats, with Hulk's highest speed feats, on top of Sabes and Warpath? Is that how it works?

If we move on, it boils down to two questions.

1. How fast is 'base' Superman? You lot are saying he's not at his highest peaks, OK. What does he start with in fights where he's serious? Not trying to talk his opponent down, not trying to challenge himself, he's trying to win (as with all characters). Is he Lois Lane level? If a random geriatric DCU lady is given strength and a set of adamantium claws, does she tag him? Alfred? Penguin? Batman?

At what level does Superman enter a match?


2. How fast is Weapon H?

An addendum question (because I can't count): at what speed level does Weapon H enter a match?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And how does apply to a fight? His gamma maths is running to save innocents and civilians.....Doesn't say anything about him using it to fight.



It does, actually.

It says so in the following manner:

--------------

"How many times have you fought the military?
How many tanks and helicopters have you smashed?
And not a single soldier has died.

Yesterday, you brought down the Sentry's eyrie.
You smashed the top of the Baxter building.

You pulverized all these heroes ...

... and yet you haven't killed a soul."

--------------

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368776_image.jpg

Originally posted by Phil
The problem that I is that we're using something that is common sense , and it's somehow not obvious that's what he would do, when it takes the minimum of intelligence. It is, quite literally, the most basic usage of power. It would be the equivalent of Surfer keeping the distance against Hulk by use his board maneuverability.

Surfer opening black holes in people's brains , would be the equivalent of Superman listening to multiversal harmonics and counter-frequency-ing people out of existence. And Superman has actually done it.

Surfer transmuting opponents thread, for example] would be closer to Superman starting to lobotomize opponents with his heat vision .

They are not the equivalent of Superman thinking "I better not get touched", and then using his basic, base power of "I'm fast" to not do so. Nobody is arguing that he scans him with X-Ray and starts a speedblitz pressure point fest .

etc.

There's lines that we draw .

I think the most simple way to put this, is we should always ask "would a 10 year old fight this way?"

If the answer is yes, then that's the bare minimum the character would do.

And then we can move on from there, and apply what the characters knows and can do and argue for it.

But we must agree on a baseline , otherwise we have no starting point.

And, as I have said before - speed is basic, and it is broken. If it was a complex part of a versatile powerset, it would be easier to argue against. If it was something that could be resisted, it would be easier to argue against. Even moreso, when we're only talking about "not get hit" - none of the vibrate intangible/invisible/speedblitzs into paste" stuff.

But it's not. And it can't.

And we're left with threads in which logic has to be taken to the river and drowned, in order to make it fair. More or less.

It's not like I'm saying that Supes would use T-vo, Solar Flares, anti-harmonic frequencies, instant lobotomy, infinite strength, etc. to rape WH within the first attosecond of the battle. Hell, you don't even have to believe that Superman would use the full extent of his speed here, and/or straight up blitz WH into oblivion at the onset.

...But it seems really illogical to assume that he wouldn't at least use *enough* speed to avoid potentially lethal strikes from his opponent in a forum setting. /shrug

Did WH get an upgrade?

Does he even need it? Why was this question asked?

Originally posted by carver9
Does he even need it? Why was this question asked?

Because I wanted to know if he got a goddamn upgrade. Don't troll me

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
There's some truth here. Weap H hasn't really battled elite speedsters.
Why i like Clark here still.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Lots of things to consider. Lots.

Also, is it just me or does speed seem to be treated differently from the other stats like strength for example?
mhmm
Just an observation. Seems like it though.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Why i like Clark here still.

Just an observation. Seems like it though.

Which I replied to , goddamit

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It does, actually.

It says so in the following manner:

--------------

"How many times have you fought the military?
How many tanks and helicopters have you smashed?
And not a single soldier has died.

Yesterday, you brought down the Sentry's eyrie.
You smashed the top of the Baxter building.

You pulverized all these heroes ...

... and yet you haven't killed a soul."

--------------

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/40368776_image.jpg

The maths is there to protect civilians.

Not in fighting heroes.

I KNOW!!!!!!!

U primadonna!!

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I KNOW!!!!!!!

U primadonna!!

TBH, speed and intelligence to me are similar, in that they're broken (and are actually related).

We all (Carver and I) agree that prep means characters can beat others.

What is speed if not (short term) prep? I can see your fist coming for my face in slow mo, so I prepare for it. Either by dodging, or in Leo's case, I feel confident that I can tank the meter long claws heading for my face.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The maths is there to protect civilians.

Not in fighting heroes. Yes it is. Hulk does various calculations all the time to figure out that angles, distance and speed all equal SMASH. WB Hulk for example was in full math mode. That was calculated perfectly.

"Hulk is Hulk" is actually a mathematical equation that Hulk only uses when he's sure he can be full Hulk based on the amount of innocents and buildings around. Very rarely does he miscalculate the Gamma Gospel.

Only when he finds 9 as a solution he's ready to unload.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The maths is there to protect civilians.

Not in fighting heroes.

The maths protects the heroes, too.
For someone of Hulk's strength level, if he wasn't holding back, if he wasn't making significant distinctions between what, say, Captain America or Hawkeye or even Spider-Man could take, versus what Hulkbuster IronMan Thor, or Sentry could endure, they'd be dead.

Hulk is an historically kind KO artist.

At least according to Greg Pak.

To some degree this is also true of Weapon H, which I plan to show in just a bit.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Gamma Gospel. https://img.fireden.net/co/image/1467/86/1467860965762.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The maths protects the heroes, too.
For someone of Hulk's strength level, if he wasn't holding back, if he wasn't making significant distinctions between what, say, Captain America or Hawkeye or even Spider-Man could take, versus what Hulkbuster IronMan Thor, or Sentry could endure, they'd be dead.

Hulk is an historically kind KO artist.

At least according to Greg Pak.

To some degree this is also true of Weapon H, which I plan to show in just a bit.

So double standards.

You take one showing from Pak, and apply it to ALL.

Superman has showings of using speed. But no, we have to average it out across everyone.

'Golly, these claws are penetrating my skin and they keep going! With my super vision, I can even see the claws slicing through the different layers of skin, through the muscle, to the bone!

Hi, I'm Kal-El, and this is Jackass.'

Pope Carver the 9th travels around the world teaching Gammaism to 3rd world nations.

When little *clickclickboop* asks Carver about whether or not metal can be ripped, Pope Carve's eyes light up when he gets to show the whole village his tinfoil experiment.

This is their newest hymn after Immortal Hulk's incarnation. The lyrics came to Pope Carver in a vision:

"He's the wolf screaming lonely in the night
He's the blood stain on the stage
He's the tear in your eye
Been tempted by his lie
He's the knife in your back
He's rage
He's the razor to the knife
Oh, lonely is our lives
My heads spinning round and round
But in the seasons of wither
We'll stand and deliver
Be strong and laugh and

Shout-shout-shout
Shout at the devil"

Bran takes things to new heights.

I want blue water to analyse his posts.